State of the Union in Wales

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State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:12 am

https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/reap-what-you-sow/

Interested to read your views on that.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:53 am

Good analogy there. Pretty much sums things up.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:56 am

Thanks.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by GavinDragon on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:16 pm

"When there was money in the Welsh system, we produced players like Roberts, Halfpenny, AWJ and Warburton."

Who did AWJ learn from in particular? Likewise Roberts and Warburton? If a players development is so dependent on the quality of players around him, why is Justin Tipuric not the number one 7 in Wales? As he was able to learn from one of the finest imports, Marty Hollah.

There was no money at the Dragons, yet they still produced Faletau and Lydiate. While money obviously helps teams be competitive, and you can put the period of the Blues success down to their foreign imports, I think we overstate their importance in terms of development. Who did faletau learn from? Likewise Lydiate? How much did their game benefit from actually playing as opposed to watching from the bench. I think osmosis can and does occur as much from good coaches as it does from good players and with the former Welsh players get to put what they learn into practice as opposed to sitting on the bench.

I completely agree the regions being starved of money has hampered their ability to retain squads that enable them to compete for trophies, but it is far too simplistic to suggest that the lack of money has had a direct impact on the players we produce.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:17 pm

GavinDragon wrote:Likewise Roberts and Warburton? If a players development is so dependent on the quality of players around him, why is Justin Tipuric not the number one 7 in Wales? As he was able to learn from one of the finest imports, Marty Hollah.

Are you asking who Sam Warburton learned from?

Honestly?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:21 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
There was no money at the Dragons, yet they still produced Faletau and Lydiate. While money obviously helps teams be competitive, and you can put the period of the Blues success down to their foreign imports, I think we overstate their importance in terms of development. Who did faletau learn from? Likewise Lydiate? How much did their game benefit from actually playing as opposed to watching from the bench. I think osmosis can and does occur as much from good coaches as it does from good players and with the former Welsh players get to put what they learn into practice as opposed to sitting on the bench.

I completely agree the regions being starved of money has hampered their ability to retain squads that enable them to compete for trophies, but it is far too simplistic to suggest that the lack of money has had a direct impact on the players we produce.

Faletau was produced by Filton College. Let's be honest about that.

When youngsters enter a squad, they need to be surrounded by talent in order to maximise their own. The players I mentioned entered a winning squad where they could learn from their elders and betters. Once you remove that osmosis, youngsters are thrown in at the deep end, alone and it is sink or swim time. In a professional sport like rugby, they sink. Experience plays a huge part in the game as the top end is won by small margins, through the experience of knowing what to do and when to do it.

Your example of Lydiate, a hugely limited player, may be the exception to the rule but it's not much of an exception.

Else, why do you thin the NGD are on a perpetual downward spiral that their youngsters can't stop? Why don't the NGD academy graduates push on for full honours as quickly, or in as greater number, as the other three?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by GavinDragon on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:22 pm

PhilBB wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:Likewise Roberts and Warburton? If a players development is so dependent on the quality of players around him, why is Justin Tipuric not the number one 7 in Wales? As he was able to learn from one of the finest imports, Marty Hollah.

Are you asking who Sam Warburton learned from?

Honestly?

Ah apologies, I was thinking overseas players and struggling.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:32 pm

AWJ would have been learning from the likes of Brent Cockbain, and wasn't Ian Gough there too or was that slightly later.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by GavinDragon on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:32 pm

PhilBB wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
There was no money at the Dragons, yet they still produced Faletau and Lydiate. While money obviously helps teams be competitive, and you can put the period of the Blues success down to their foreign imports, I think we overstate their importance in terms of development. Who did faletau learn from? Likewise Lydiate? How much did their game benefit from actually playing as opposed to watching from the bench. I think osmosis can and does occur as much from good coaches as it does from good players and with the former Welsh players get to put what they learn into practice as opposed to sitting on the bench.

I completely agree the regions being starved of money has hampered their ability to retain squads that enable them to compete for trophies, but it is far too simplistic to suggest that the lack of money has had a direct impact on the players we produce.

Faletau was produced by Filton College. Let's be honest about that.

When youngsters enter a squad, they need to be surrounded by talent in order to maximise their own. The players I mentioned entered a winning squad where they could learn from their elders and betters. Once you remove that osmosis, youngsters are thrown in at the deep end, alone and it is sink or swim time. In a professional sport like rugby, they sink. Experience plays a huge part in the game as the top end is won by small margins, through the experience of knowing what to do and when to do it.

Your example of Lydiate, a hugely limited player, may be the exception to the rule but it's not much of an exception.

Else, why do you thin the NGD are on a perpetual downward spiral that their youngsters can't stop? Why don't the NGD academy graduates push on for full honours as quickly, or in as greater number, as the other three?

We struggle to keep hold of the good ones? Any player who has a decent season for us generally gets snapped up by another team:

Maule
Gough
Charteris
Bearman
Tovey
Lydiate
Dan Evans
Ceri Sweeney
Jon Evans
Aled Brew
Richard Fussell
Alex Jeffries
Tom Isaacs
Michael Owen
Rhys Thomas

Granted only a few of these players came through the academy. But of the ones that did come through and haven't made the grade. I doubt the addition of money and better players would have enabled them to make it at the top level.

NB. Then there are players in our pathway who we either choose not to or don't offer contracts to, or they don't accept them:-

Jack Condy (Scarlets)
Lewis Rawlins (Scarlets)

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:44 pm

Gav, I think that all the regions lose/ignore some kids on the pathway that turn out to be very good elsewhere. It does seem like some regions over produce in certain positions, and under produce in others.

Also on your list here is the likes of that under 20s No8 that went to the Blues, and then the Ospreys last season (or the season before?), who looked like he could have been the future post Toby. And the likes of Phil Dolman.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by GavinDragon on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:59 pm

Morgan Allen & Ieuan Jones.

And Phil, Faletau attended Filton College for how many years? What about New Panteg, where he started playing rugby, could they not claim credit for his development?


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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 3:27 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
Ah apologies, I was thinking overseas players and struggling.

Well, Rush and Molitika helped.

Imagine how much Biggar and Webb would have come on under Marshall today, or Cory Allen playing alongside Jamie Roberts instead of Gavin Evans.

The osmosis argument is undeniable.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 3:28 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
We struggle to keep hold of the good ones? Any player who has a decent season for us generally gets snapped up by another team:

Maule
Gough
Charteris
Bearman
Tovey
Lydiate
Dan Evans
Ceri Sweeney
Jon Evans
Aled Brew
Richard Fussell
Alex Jeffries
Tom Isaacs
Michael Owen
Rhys Thomas

Granted only a few of these players came through the academy. But of the ones that did come through and haven't made the grade. I doubt the addition of money and better players would have enabled them to make it at the top level.

NB. Then there are players in our pathway who we either choose not to or don't offer contracts to, or they don't accept them:-

Jack Condy (Scarlets)
Lewis Rawlins (Scarlets)

I'm a bit confused here. Are you claiming that players won't improve by playing alongside and training alongside better players?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 3:32 pm

GavinDragon wrote:Morgan Allen & Ieuan Jones.

And Phil, Faletau attended Filton College for how many years? What about New Panteg, where he started playing rugby, could they not claim credit for his development?

2006-2009.

The NGD overlooked him first of all.

He went to Filton as a 16 year old. That's where the acceleration in learning happened.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by GavinDragon on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 5:16 pm

PhilBB wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
We struggle to keep hold of the good ones? Any player who has a decent season for us generally gets snapped up by another team:

Maule
Gough
Charteris
Bearman
Tovey
Lydiate
Dan Evans
Ceri Sweeney
Jon Evans
Aled Brew
Richard Fussell
Alex Jeffries
Tom Isaacs
Michael Owen
Rhys Thomas

Granted only a few of these players came through the academy. But of the ones that did come through and haven't made the grade. I doubt the addition of money and better players would have enabled them to make it at the top level.

NB. Then there are players in our pathway who we either choose not to or don't offer contracts to, or they don't accept them:-

Jack Condy (Scarlets)
Lewis Rawlins (Scarlets)

I'm a bit confused here. Are you claiming that players won't improve by playing alongside and training alongside better players?

No, I am questioning how much playing time they have when big names come over and play in their stead. It is a fine balance.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by RiscaGame on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 5:17 pm

PhilBB wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:Morgan Allen & Ieuan Jones.

And Phil, Faletau attended Filton College for how many years? What about New Panteg, where he started playing rugby, could they not claim credit for his development?

2006-2009.

The NGD overlooked him first of all.

He went to Filton as a 16 year old. That's where the acceleration in learning happened.

Agree on Faletau.

I like your article too. If nothing else, it's to the point unlike the offerings that berks like Geraint Powell etc produce.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by Stone Motif on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 6:41 pm

PhilBB wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
Ah apologies, I was thinking overseas players and struggling.

Well, Rush and Molitika helped.

Imagine how much Biggar and Webb would have come on under Marshall today, or Cory Allen playing alongside Jamie Roberts instead of Gavin Evans.

The osmosis argument is undeniable.

Not that I'm knocking the fine article but each of the players mentioned have limitations that all the osmosis in the world won't cure.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by Griff on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 7:17 pm

Does this 'osmosis' only work one way, I.e. From overseas player to Welsh player? Because you'd expect our own Welsh international stars to have brought on a number of players too. Our young lads have been rubbing shoulders with Lydiate, Faletau, Roberts, Gethin Jenkins, but who have they brought on? Where is the osmotic effect there? All I see is a massive void with few waiting in the wings. The Chiefs game showed as much.  I like the osmosis theory and agree it should be ONE of the good reasons for bringing in big name stars, but it is too hit and miss to be a sound theory in my opinion. As mentioned above there are too many exceptions to the rule to make it believable/true. Who was the star overseas player who brought Adam Jones on? Shane Williams? Gethin Jenkins? They seemed to develop on their own with some average club players ahead of them who they ousted. You say that the osmosis is undeniable, yet who was the star overseas international at Filton college that brought Faletau on, as it wasn't the Dragons apparently?

Big name overseas players and the osmotic effect (sounds like a good title for a research paper!) is just one of a number of reasons to bring them in for me. Yes they can and should have a positive impact on younger players skills and ability from a learning point of view, but they also put bums on seats = £££ to build and maintain, they bring new/novel/innovative coaching and training methods and ideas from far flung corners of the world, their season isn't generally interrupted by national squad call ups, they generally bring experience because that is why they are a big name I.e. they've achieved something and this give a bit of confidence to the rest of the team, if they cost big £ then it's usually because they are winners who know how to win and can help our teams win which in turn = bums on seats, more wonga, young players willing to stay (as long as they're not kept out of the team completely by the big name) which gives us a bit of sustainability (in relative terms), etc.


Last edited by Griff on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:11 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Spelling like a right eejit.)

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by GavinDragon on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 7:46 pm

Just watched our u20's defend for their lives against the baby blacks. They struggled, or chose not, to string 3 phases together. It seems we are developing players who are not comfortable on the ball or who do not have the basic contact skills to enable us to retain possession. Where does the foreign influence, or lack of, fit here? Should we be bringing foreigners over to play alongside our age grade players so that they learn through 'osmosis'?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 8:00 pm

Is the level of coaching in the regional academies good enough?

Faletau is often quick to credit the Bristol Academy of Sport (aka Filton College) for his development, while Moriarty went through Hartpury College.

Of course these are exceptions in the Welsh team, but I do feel you need your best coaches utilised when players are at the stage where they are still learning.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by GavinDragon on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 8:07 pm

There are some very good coaches I am sure. A few weeks back one of our top college sides beat one of New Zealand's top schools who were touring here. Our regional academies also seem to do well against their English counterparts (I know the Dragons have picked up wins over Wasps and Northampton at u16 level in recent years).

There does seem to be more Welsh players coming through the English system now. Matt Protheroe was with England this year, Callum Sheedy etc.

I think overall the standard does need to be improved. But you also need good competition. In wales at any particular age grade you will always have 3 or 4 strong club sides as you go through when ideally you would want 5 or 6 teams in each region.

Football is a big threat to participation levels. In Newport I know of 3 rugby clubs who can put a full set of mini and junior sides out, from u7's to u16s. I know 7 football clubs who put two sides out at each age group every week.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 10:07 pm

Lol Faletau one of the best 8s in the world produced at the mighty Filton College. Don't let New Panteg read that.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 10:21 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Is the level of coaching in the regional academies good enough?

Faletau is often quick to credit the Bristol Academy of Sport (aka Filton College) for his development, while Moriarty went through Hartpury College.

Of course these are exceptions in the Welsh team, but I do feel you need your best coaches utilised when players are at the stage where they are still learning.

Yes it's pretty good and has been for a while now, but not across the board and at every level, so you have dim-witted coaching here and there.

I fail to understand how a college better prepares a player than a professional academy? Moriarty's coach at Hartpury was also a Gloucester and England U18s coach, what's your point? He's not exactly a world-beater btw.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 10:23 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
Football is a big threat to participation levels. In Newport I know of 3 rugby clubs who can put a full set of mini and junior sides out, from u7's to u16s. I know 7 football clubs who put two sides out at each age group every week.

Sounds like rugby participation has gone up at least.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 10:25 pm

A good article by the way Phillipe, did our recent discussion on the regional production line and Quinell's Wales A team claims inspire you to write it?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 8:54 am

GavinDragon wrote:
No, I am questioning how much playing time they have when big names come over and play in their stead. It is a fine balance.

The entire rugby model shows us that 'gametime' alone is no route to success. It needs to be quality game time, alongside quality players, in an environment that is at worst competitive.

The silly narrative that 'our youngsters need game time' is a real problem in Welsh rugby.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 8:55 am

RiscaGame wrote:
I like your article too. If nothing else, it's to the point unlike the offerings that berks like Geraint Powell etc produce.

It's not easy for Geraint to write his stuff as a) he doesn't actually have a point b) what he wants cannot be financed or delivered c) its easy to dismiss his ideas (and he knows it) and d) he's a bare faced liar.

But thanks for your words on my piece. I do try to keep them punchy.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 8:56 am

Stone Motif wrote:
Not that I'm knocking the fine article but each of the players mentioned have limitations that all the osmosis in the world won't cure.

Indeed, but that is when good coaching is required.

That's why I mentioned the lunacy of the Level 5 nonsense that saw failures like Phil Davies take charge at Cardiff.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 9:01 am

Griff wrote:Does this 'osmosis' only work one way, I.e. From overseas player to Welsh player? Because you'd expect our own Welsh international stars to have brought on a number of players too. Our young lads have been rubbing shoulders with Lydiate, Faletau, Roberts, Gethin Jenkins, but who have they brought on? Where is the osmotic effect there? All I see is a massive void with few waiting in the wings. The Chiefs game showed as much.  I like the osmosis theory and agree it should be ONE of the good reasons for bringing in big name stars, but it is too hit and miss to be a sound theory in my opinion. As mentioned above there are too many exceptions to the rule to make it believable/true. Who was the star overseas player who brought Adam Jones on? Shane Williams? Gethin Jenkins? They seemed to develop on their own with some average club players ahead of them who they ousted. You say that the osmosis is undeniable, yet who was the star overseas international at Filton college that brought Faletau on, as it wasn't the Dragons apparently?

Big name overseas players and the osmotic effect (sounds like a good title for a research paper!) is just one of a number of reasons to bring them in for me. Yes they can and should have a positive impact on younger players skills and ability from a learning point of view, but they also put bums on seats = £££ to build and maintain, they bring new/novel/innovative coaching and training methods and ideas from far flung corners of the world, their season isn't generally interrupted by national squad call ups, they generally bring experience because that is why they are a big name I.e. they've achieved something and this give a bit of confidence to the rest of the team, if they cost big £ then it's usually because they are winners who know how to win and can help our teams win which in turn = bums on seats, more wonga, young players willing to stay (as long as they're not kept out of the team completely by the big name) which gives us a bit of sustainability (in relative terms), etc.

I think that you're missing the point that the overseas players are with the squad week in, week out. The Team Wales players miss over three months of the season. You part address that in your second paragraph, in fairness.

It is also an osmosis that is not pre-determined to one position. In other words, the approach and experience of a Xavier Rush can rub off as much on a full back as it can a blindside. Sure, it's accelerated when there is a like for like positional approach but the effect is not restricted to just that learning.

Any system will always produce good players like Jones, Jenkins and Williams, but the latter is a fine example of a player whose limitations meant that he couldn't perform at the top level until he was dropped and worked on them. That's good coaching. Compare the effect of Williams being dropped with what is happening to Cuthbert. Where's Cuthbert's incentive to improve?


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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 9:01 am

GavinDragon wrote:Just watched our u20's defend for their lives against the baby blacks. They struggled, or chose not, to string 3 phases together. It seems we are developing players who are not comfortable on the ball or who do not have the basic contact skills to enable us to retain possession. Where does the foreign influence, or lack of, fit here? Should we be bringing foreigners over to play alongside our age grade players so that they learn through 'osmosis'?

As discussed on twitter, you're conflating skill set with coaching.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 9:02 am

mikey_dragon wrote:A good article by the way Phillipe, did our recent discussion on the regional production line and Quinell's Wales A team claims inspire you to write it?

No, the drivel I read on twitter from the thick as mince Welsh rugby public inspired me to write it.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by Sin é on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 11:18 am

Phil wrote:In Ireland, the IRFU contribute €90,000 per player for the first 17 players in a squad and then €50,000 for the next 22. That’s €2.63m a year PLUS a whole load of cash on top. In total, the IRFU were spending just short of €30m a year on its supply chain during the same period from 2010/11 onwards.

In 2012, Lewis spent £15.1m on his supply chain and included in that is broadcast and competition income that is owed directly to PRW. In 2013, it was £16.9m (again including the money owed directly to PRW). In 2013, the IRFU spent €32m.

You left out that the IRFU take all income generated by the Provinces in ERC & PRO12 competition (including cuts from gate money).

In 2010/11 ERC and provincial income was €9,324,40 which leaves expenditure by the IRFU in 2010/11 at approx. €21m which is about £16m sterling - not that much more than what Lewis was investing into the Regions of £15.1m.


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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 11:57 am

For me it's the coaches, or lack of quality coaches in Wales. We are producing plenty of raw talent, yet we cannot give this talent the extra few inches as our coaches are not good enough.

We are still using coaches from an amateur era. The players we have now are being coached by some ex professional players who in turn were coached by amateurs from the amateur era.

It will not be until we get the next generation of coaches through that we will bare the fruits of our labors. Professional coaches for professional players.

Yes, foreign imports will help, but lets not kid ourselves here, if we are bringing in NWQ players, they MUST be of a proven quality. Not cast offs that other teams do not need anymore. We do not need average NWQ players to pad out our squads, we have enough Welsh guys to do that.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 1:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:For me it's the coaches, or lack of quality coaches in Wales. We are producing plenty of raw talent, yet we cannot give this talent the extra few inches as our coaches are not good enough.

We are still using coaches from an amateur era. The players we have now are being coached by some ex professional players who in turn were coached by amateurs from the amateur era.

It will not be until we get the next generation of coaches through that we will bare the fruits of our labors. Professional coaches for professional players.

Yes, foreign imports will help, but lets not kid ourselves here, if we are bringing in NWQ players, they MUST be of a proven quality. Not cast offs that other teams do not need anymore. We do not need average NWQ players to pad out our squads, we have enough Welsh guys to do that.  

I think the regions are starting to see that their NWQs need to be either first 23, or an experienced replacement for a welsh squad player.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by Stone Motif on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 4:38 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
Not that I'm knocking the fine article but each of the players mentioned have limitations that all the osmosis in the world won't cure.

Indeed, but that is when good coaching is required.

That's why I mentioned the lunacy of the Level 5 nonsense that saw failures like Phil Davies take charge at Cardiff.

Lunacy indeed. But again some of the weaknesses are physical and coaching will only go so far.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by Stone Motif on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 4:39 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
Not that I'm knocking the fine article but each of the players mentioned have limitations that all the osmosis in the world won't cure.

Indeed, but that is when good coaching is required.

That's why I mentioned the lunacy of the Level 5 nonsense that saw failures like Phil Davies take charge at Cardiff.

Lunacy indeed. But again some of the weaknesses are physical and coaching will only go so far.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by Stone Motif on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 4:44 pm

PhilBB wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
No, I am questioning how much playing time they have when big names come over and play in their stead. It is a fine balance.

The entire rugby model shows us that 'gametime' alone is no route to success. It needs to be quality game time, alongside quality players, in an environment that is at worst competitive.

The silly narrative that 'our youngsters need game time' is a real problem in Welsh rugby.

It's only silly in the context you point out, the assumption that the kids just need to play. It's clear that game time is an important factor and Gain is correct to an extent. See your point about Anscombe on the other thread. Game time, coaching, osmosis are all part of the mix but the right mix is unique to each sport man in my view. Certainly the truest words any coach ever spoke to me were 'you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink'

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 6:57 am

Sin é wrote:

You left out that the IRFU take all income generated by the Provinces in ERC & PRO12 competition (including cuts from gate money).

In 2010/11 ERC and provincial income was €9,324,40 which leaves expenditure by the IRFU in 2010/11 at approx. €21m which is about £16m sterling - not that much more than what Lewis was investing into the Regions of £15.1m.


Your error is that the ERC and competition money is included in the £15.1m.

Hence my figures were like for like. I left nothing out.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 7:00 am

LordDowlais wrote:For me it's the coaches, or lack of quality coaches in Wales. We are producing plenty of raw talent, yet we cannot give this talent the extra few inches as our coaches are not good enough.

We are still using coaches from an amateur era. The players we have now are being coached by some ex professional players who in turn were coached by amateurs from the amateur era.

It will not be until we get the next generation of coaches through that we will bare the fruits of our labors. Professional coaches for professional players.

Yes, foreign imports will help, but lets not kid ourselves here, if we are bringing in NWQ players, they MUST be of a proven quality. Not cast offs that other teams do not need anymore. We do not need average NWQ players to pad out our squads, we have enough Welsh guys to do that.  

Each coach at a PRW team is either a WRU level 5 qualified coach or has the equivalent qualification from their home union. We are not using coaches from the amateur era.

Coaches like Wilson and Pivac are professional coaches, whilst there may be a note that Tandy could come under your catchall it is countered by Gibbes and now Davis.

As the point of the piece clearly is, money will allow the better quality nWq. Rush instead of Vosawai etc.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 7:01 am

Stone Motif wrote:
It's only silly in the context you point out, the assumption that the kids just need to play. It's clear that game time is an important factor and Gain is correct to an extent. See your point about Anscombe on the other thread. Game time, coaching, osmosis are all part of the mix but the right mix is unique to each sport man in my view. Certainly the truest words any coach ever spoke to me were 'you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink'

Agreed.

Good game time, osmosis from top players, good coaching.

All needs money. Lots of money. And Roger made sure there wasn't enough to go around, hence we are where we are today.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:07 am

PhilBB wrote:Each coach at a PRW team is either a WRU level 5 qualified coach or has the equivalent qualification from their home union. We are not using coaches from the amateur era.

Yes I know, and it will not be until we have their next generation that we will see the fruit of our labors. Who are the people coaching them, to get them to this level five status ? It is people who are now at level 5, who can then coach the next generation, and totally eradicate the amateurism from our coaching.

PhilBB wrote:Coaches like Wilson and Pivac are professional coaches, whilst there may be a note that Tandy could come under your catchall it is countered by Gibbes and now Davis.

Pivac I would agree with, the SH were professional way before us, so he was probably coached by a pro. The Welsh one's though I would not think so. We were only proper pro in 2003. It will take a generation to get our coaches to the next level. That is why ALL the coaches of the B&I national teams are from the SH. There are not enough good home grown one's to be international standard.

PhilBB wrote:As the point of the piece clearly is, money will allow the better quality nWq. Rush instead of Vosawai etc.

Yes I agree with that. But lets just see what happens. If we start recruiting quality NWQ players then OK I will agree, but if we start seeing players who nobody else wants then I am afraid that your point of view will be scampered by our teams inability to sign decent players. Lets not forget, there should be no excuses on that front now, the regions have won their war with the WRU and Roger Lewis has gone as well.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:24 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Yes I know, and it will not be until we have their next generation that we will see the fruit of our labors. Who are the people coaching them, to get them to this level five status ? It is people who are now at level 5, who can then coach the next generation, and totally eradicate the amateurism from our coaching.

The Level 4 award is more than just rugby coaching - it includes all of the S&C work, mental coaching, performance management, stats, etc. It really isn't, I don't think, as you see it.

The top coaches in Wales are as well qualified as they are in England and Ireland etc.

I don't see any 'amateurism' at the pro game. Who are you thinking of?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:26 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Pivac I would agree with, the SH were professional way before us, so he was probably coached by a pro. The Welsh one's though I would not think so. We were only proper pro in 2003. It will take a generation to get our coaches to the next level. That is why ALL the coaches of the B&I national teams are from the SH. There are not enough good home grown one's to be international standard.

Sorry, I'm really struggling to follow this logic. How could Pivac be 'coached by a pro' but Danny Wilson is an 'amateur'?

I assume that you think Lancaster is 'international standard'. Also, Howley and Humphreys?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:28 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Yes I agree with that. But lets just see what happens. If we start recruiting quality NWQ  players then OK I will agree, but if we start seeing players who nobody else wants then I am afraid that your point of view will be scampered by our teams inability to sign decent players. Lets not forget, there should be no excuses on that front now, the regions have won their war with the WRU and Roger Lewis has gone as well.

As we went through before, the contracts Lewis put in place are still there. The financial constraints he placed on the game are still there. The Barclays deal still has three years to run.

So, regardless of the present relationship between Phillips and PRW, the constraints of Lewis are still there and cannot be broken.

Therefore, the 'no excuses' rhetoric doesn't stand to reason, sorry.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:40 am

PhilBB wrote:The Level 4 award is more than just rugby coaching - it includes all of the S&C work, mental coaching, performance management, stats, etc. It really isn't, I don't think, as you see it.

Yes I understand all this. But who is coaching our coaches so to speak ? Look, there is a fundamental reason why we cannot find a coach in Britain or Ireland good enough to coach the national sides.

For my liking, it will not be until, these coaches we have now, are bringing through then next generation of coaches. You spoke of osmosis, well it does not only apply to the players.

PhilBB wrote:The top coaches in Wales are as well qualified as they are in England and Ireland etc.

I do not doubt it, but they are still not good enough, or they would be considered for the national job.

PhilBB wrote:I don't see any 'amateurism' at the pro game. Who are you thinking of?

Then of the bloody hell are people like Lyn Jones, Steve Tandy, Kingsly Jones getting head coaching jobs at the regions ?

PhilBB wrote:Sorry, I'm really struggling to follow this logic. How could Pivac be 'coached by a pro' but Danny Wilson is an 'amateur'?

I am not saying Wilson is an amateur, I am saying he was taught by people who are as far down the road of professionalism as Pivac. The SH were more or less pro by 1990, I remember Jonathan Davis's interview before he went to league saying this. So Pivac as a player was probably coached by better coaches, thus when he became a coach himself was already on the front foot.

PhilBB wrote:I assume that you think Lancaster is 'international standard'. Also, Howley and Humphreys?

No chance, not by a long shot, why would you think I have thought that ? I have not given any indications of that. In fact I have said the opposite.



The thing is, until the likes of Sam Warburton, Dan Biggar, AWJ to name a few, hang up their boots and become coaches, we will not see the fruits of our labors. Professional coaches for professional players. These are the people who know nothing else other than being professional, because that is all they have known.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:44 am

PhilBB wrote:Therefore, the 'no excuses' rhetoric doesn't stand to reason, sorry.

Hang on, so the NDC's do not count then do they ? So the Welsh internationals that are now being kept, and the money saved in doing so 60%, cannot go towards signing better NWQ players ?

I am sorry, but you are already making excuses for next season. It's not rhetoric, it's fact, the regions are now keeping hold of their better players, and they should have extra money from the 60% they are not paying to sign better NWQ players.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:44 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Yes I understand all this. But who is coaching our coaches so to speak ? Look, there is a fundamental reason why we cannot find a coach in Britain or Ireland good enough to coach the national sides.

For my liking, it will not be until, these coaches we have now, are bringing through then next generation of coaches. You spoke of osmosis, well it does not only apply to the players.

Of course it doesn't only apply to players, which is why coaches improve constantly by learning new techniques. The Level 4 stuff is a lot about management, systems, planning, S&C: academic stuff.

I think it trite and really unfair to write off these coaches simply because of their age and their playing background. The Academic advances in professional sport push these guys forward.

I don't think that you're being fair by dismissing their ability because of their age and background. They have a professional progression that counters your belief.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:46 am

LordDowlais wrote:
I do not doubt it, but they are still not good enough, or they would be considered for the national job.

Or, it could mean that there are very few national team jobs and only the very elite get them. That doesn't mean that those coaching domestic teams are immediately lesser coaches.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:47 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Then of the bloody hell are people like Lyn Jones, Steve Tandy, Kingsly Jones getting head coaching jobs at the regions ?

Lyn Jones has gone.

What makes you think that Kingsley Jones and Steve Tandy are amateurish?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:50 am

LordDowlais wrote:
I am not saying Wilson is an amateur, I am saying he was taught by people who are as far down the road of professionalism as Pivac. The SH were more or less pro by 1990, I remember Jonathan Davis's interview before he went to league saying this. So Pivac as a player was probably coached by better coaches, thus when he became a coach himself was already on the front foot.

Sure, but when do you think that advantage dissipates? I mean, a coach can improve his performance over time through academic research of the modern game. Pivac was influenced by the game in the 90s but that is a vastly different beast from the ever evolving game of today, so surely you can recognise that even coaches like Pivac have to run to keep up with the modern changes?

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