State of the Union in Wales

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State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:12 am

First topic message reminder :

https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/reap-what-you-sow/

Interested to read your views on that.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:53 am

LordDowlais wrote:
No chance, not by a long shot, why would you think I have thought that ? I have not given any indications of that. In fact I have said the opposite.

The thing is, until the likes of Sam Warburton, Dan Biggar, AWJ to name a few, hang up their boots and become coaches, we will not see the fruits of our labors. Professional coaches for professional players. These are the people who know nothing else other than being professional, because that is all they have known.

You have given indications of that! You noted that only the best coaches become international coaches and Howley, Humphreys and Lancaster have all been / are international coaches. Therefore, they meet your definition.

Steve Tandy has only ever been a professional rugby player. He has only ever known the professional environment. Surely you can see that there is enough evidence to show that your idea of 'professional coaches for professional players' is a little too simplistic and doesn't really stack up to the modern changing sport that is rugby union?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 8:57 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Hang on, so the NDC's do not count then do they ? So the Welsh internationals that are now being kept, and the money saved in doing so 60%, cannot go towards signing better NWQ players ?

I am sorry, but you are already making excuses for next season. It's not rhetoric, it's fact, the regions are now keeping hold of their better players, and they should have extra money from the 60% they are not paying to sign better NWQ players.

The NDCs are just £2m extra per season. That's all.

If you read the blog I wrote then you will see that the gap is larger than £2m and has been for years.

Next season PRW will still be underpaid compared to their competitors.

That £2m has already been part matched by the IRFU who have thrown €500,000 at each of their four teams this year.

So, again, that comparative NDC increase has already been countered elsewhere by those who already receive more payments. So, sorry, your point does not stand up.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:07 am

PhilBB wrote:You have given indications of that! You noted that only the best coaches become international coaches and Howley, Humphreys and Lancaster have all been / are international coaches. Therefore, they meet your definition.

OK then Phil, show me were I have given indications of it. FFS, why has everything got to be a p1ssing match with you ?

There are NO coaches in Wales that are Welsh and good enough for the national side. Also there are not many I would consider good enough for our regions either. Cardiff probably have the best up and coming Welsh coach at the moment.

PhilBB wrote:Steve Tandy has only ever been a professional rugby player.

Yes, but he was coached by amateurs.

PhilBB wrote:He has only ever known the professional environment.

Yeah righto. He was coached by Lyn the lip lets not forget.

PhilBB wrote:Surely you can see that there is enough evidence to show that your idea of 'professional coaches for professional players' is a little too simplistic and doesn't really stack up to the modern changing sport that is rugby union?

Well you tell me who you should think the next Welsh, Welsh coach should be. Or tell me the next Welshmen you think are good enough to coach the regions.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:10 am

LordDowlais wrote:
OK then Phil, show me were I have given indications of it. FFS, why has everything got to be a p1ssing match with you ?

There are NO coaches in Wales that are Welsh and good enough for the national side. Also there are not many I would consider good enough for our regions either. Cardiff probably have the best up and coming Welsh coach at the moment.

Ok, no worries. I was just pointing out to you that your yardstick of 'international coach so must be good' can come undone when you consider Howley, Humphreys and McBryde. Even Lancaster. All of whom were 'coached by amateurs'.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:11 am

PhilBB wrote:The NDCs are just £2m extra per season. That's all.

That's 2m more than what they have now.

PhilBB wrote:If you read the blog I wrote then you will see that the gap is larger than £2m and has been for years.

So it is time for the regions to start earning a bit more money for themselves.

PhilBB wrote:That £2m has already been part matched by the IRFU who have thrown €500,000 at each of their four teams this year.

Yes, but the regions have not been weakened this off season, except for Dragons who have lost Faletau. So again we should see better performances.


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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by Sin é on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:13 am

PhilBB wrote:
Sin é wrote:

You left out that the IRFU take all income generated by the Provinces in ERC & PRO12 competition (including cuts from gate money).

In 2010/11 ERC and provincial income was €9,324,40 which leaves expenditure by the IRFU in 2010/11 at approx. €21m which is about £16m sterling - not that much more than what Lewis was investing into the Regions of £15.1m.


Your error is that the ERC and competition money is included in the £15.1m.

Hence my figures were like for like. I left nothing out.

The Welsh regions didn't earn anything like what the Irish Provinces would have earned from the ERC because of the merit payments, cuts of gate receipts etc. If the Welsh Regions performed better, had better gates, they would have had a better income from the ERC as well via the WRU.



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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:13 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Well you tell me who you should think the next Welsh, Welsh coach should be. Or tell me the next Welshmen you think are good enough to coach the regions.

Dai Young should get the Welsh job.

The good young coaches who are coming through include Greg Woods, Jason Strange, Duane Goodfield.

These guys are working hard at their coaching education and are more influenced by the external factors of modern coaching than by those who coached them 10-15 years ago.

Tandy's exposure to the modern game is far beyond what he would have taken in on field technical coaching from a fellow flanker like Lyn Jones. That's my point: the game is evolving so quickly that the greatest influences on modern coaches are modern techniques and academic research, not what Lyn Jones told them in 2004.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:15 am

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
OK then Phil, show me were I have given indications of it. FFS, why has everything got to be a p1ssing match with you ?

There are NO coaches in Wales that are Welsh and good enough for the national side. Also there are not many I would consider good enough for our regions either. Cardiff probably have the best up and coming Welsh coach at the moment.

Ok, no worries. I was just pointing out to you that your yardstick of 'international coach so must be good' can come undone when you consider Howley, Humphreys and McBryde. Even Lancaster. All of whom were 'coached by amateurs'.

I am not saying that though Phil, I am saying the opposite. These people ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. They should not be where they are. Please stop trying to twist my opinions to suit your argument.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:16 am

Sin é wrote:
The Welsh regions didn't earn anything like what the Irish Provinces would have earned from the ERC because of the merit payments, cuts of gate receipts etc. If the Welsh Regions performed better, had better gates, they would have had a better income from the ERC as well via the WRU.

Like getting to a HEC semi final in 2009, you mean?

If PRW teams had won that kind of money it would have gone to paying off debts whereas Munster just roll on the term, not pay much back and spend the rest on wages.

See the difference?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:18 am

LordDowlais wrote:
I am not saying that though Phil, I am saying the opposite. These people ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. They should not be where they are. Please stop trying to twist my opinions to suit your argument.

Right, so we've established that there is no rule of thumb that states 'international coach is better than domestic coach'.

Can we now address the logic that states players coached by 'amateurs' cannot become good coaches themselves?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:20 am

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:The NDCs are just £2m extra per season. That's all.

That's 2m more than what they have now.

PhilBB wrote:If you read the blog I wrote then you will see that the gap is larger than £2m and has been for years.

So it is time for the regions to start earning a bit more money for themselves.

PhilBB wrote:That £2m has already been part matched by the IRFU who have thrown €500,000 at each of their four teams this year.

Yes, but the regions have not been weakened this off season, except for Dragons who have lost Faletau. So again we should see better performances.


No, it's £2m they have now. The contracts are locked in place.

PRW cannot earn more money for themselves. Their major income streams are tied in and out of their control.

Relatively, PRW are still miles behind their competitors and are not financially catching up. Therefore, how can we expect their performances to relatively improve? There's no logic to that.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:23 am

PhilBB wrote:The good young coaches who are coming through include Greg Woods, Jason Strange, Duane Goodfield.

Exactly, the next generation. Professionals being coached by professionals the very osmosis that you are banging on about.

PhilBB wrote:Dai Young should get the Welsh job.

Not for me he shouldn't. Perhaps put him in charge of a region and see how he does. Not a team full of top class players. Yes he is good, and perhaps he is next in line for Wales, what Dai Young is, he is the best of a bad bunch. But that's just my opinion, before you start going off on one.

PhilBB wrote:That's my point: the game is evolving so quickly that the greatest influences on modern coaches are modern techniques and academic research, not what Lyn Jones told them in 2004.

NO. That is MY point. You are just trying to twist things to win the internet again.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:25 am

LordDowlais wrote:

Exactly, the next generation. Professionals being coached by professionals the very osmosis that you are banging on about.


No, mate. They are being coached by the same people that the likes of Tandy were coached by. Or, coached by Tandy himself.

That's the point: your idea here cannot be right as it perpetuates what you note as 'amateurism'. If Tandy is an amateur because he was coached by Lyn Jones then those coached by Tandy will also be, by your own logic, 'amateurs'.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:26 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Not for me he shouldn't. Perhaps put him in charge of a region and see how he does. Not a team full of top class players. Yes he is good, and perhaps he is next in line for Wales, what Dai Young is, he is the best of a bad bunch. But that's just my opinion, before you start going off on one.


'Put him in charge of a region'? He did that for 6 years or more. So what would that prove?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:26 am

PhilBB wrote:PRW cannot earn more money for themselves. Their major income streams are tied in and out of their control.

That is bullsh1t. There are no reasons why the teams cannot market themselves better around Wales, and the whole of the UK for that matter. There are so many more things the "regions" can do within their own region for starters. Firstly they should be trying harder to get more people through the turn styles.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:27 am

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:That's my point: the game is evolving so quickly that the greatest influences on modern coaches are modern techniques and academic research, not what Lyn Jones told them in 2004.

NO. That is MY point. You are just trying to twist things to win the internet again.

In which case we must agree, but that would contradict your belief that Kingsley Jones and Steve Tandy are 'amateurs'.

So which is it? The influence of Lyn Jones on their playing career or the influence of modern techniques? Which is, in your opinion, making these guys 'amateurs'?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:28 am

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:PRW cannot earn more money for themselves. Their major income streams are tied in and out of their control.

That is bullsh1t. There are no reasons why the teams cannot market themselves better around Wales, and the whole of the UK for that matter. There are so many more things the "regions" can do within their own region for starters. Firstly they should be trying harder to get more people through the turn styles.

Why would people go through the turnstiles to watch an inferior league, with daft kick off times, that they can get on their TV for free?

We can see from history that the 'interesting' games are always well attended.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:29 am

PhilBB wrote:'Put him in charge of a region'? He did that for 6 years or more. So what would that prove?

It would prove how good he is with limited recourse's. Just like what Gatland has to do.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:33 am

PhilBB wrote:
In which case we must agree, but that would contradict your belief that Kingsley Jones and Steve Tandy are 'amateurs'.

NO. I have not said they are amateurs. FFS. Just take time to digest what you are reading. They are pro's now, but they were coached by people who have come through amateurism. It is this we need to get away from, and we will not be away from it until the next generation of coaches are in place. Only then will we see the green shoots of improvement.

We have no problem in producing players in Wales, we can pluck scrum halves out of the air. The problems we have is taking these players onto the next level, and that is because our coaches are not good enough.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:35 am

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:'Put him in charge of a region'? He did that for 6 years or more. So what would that prove?

It would prove how good he is with limited recourse's. Just like what Gatland has to do.

He spent 6 years proving that, not that your final sentence is in anyway accurate.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:40 am

LordDowlais wrote:
NO. I have not said they are amateurs. FFS. Just take time to digest what you are reading. They are pro's now, but they were coached by people who have come through amateurism. It is this we need to get away from, and we will not be away from it until the next generation of coaches are in place. Only then will we see the green shoots of improvement.

We have no problem in producing players in Wales, we can pluck scrum halves out of the air. The problems we have is taking these players onto the next level, and that is because our coaches are not good enough.

I asked you on Page One: "I don't see any 'amateurism' at the pro game. Who are you thinking of?"
You replied: "Then of the bloody hell are people like Lyn Jones, Steve Tandy, Kingsly Jones getting head coaching jobs at the regions ?"

I took that to mean that you though Steve Tandy and Kingsley Jones were those displaying 'amateurism'.

You then wrote that YOUR point was that modern coaching techniques were the greater influence on these guys, not what Lyn Jones coached them 20 years ago. You now write, in the post quoted, that Tandy and KJ cannot be good enough coaches because they came through 'amateurism'.

Can you not see the complete contradiction that you've posted?

The new players coming through are coached by Tandy. Tandy is affected, according to you, by 'amateurism' so, therefore by definition, so must be the players he is coaching. This is your logic.

All I'm doing is pointing out that it makes no sense and is wholly wrong. Tandy is a modern coach, whose influences are the latest elements of the professional game and these are far greater influences than his own experience from being coached by Lyn Jones. This is where your logic again falls over.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:43 am

PhilBB wrote:He spent 6 years proving that

What when he was with Cardiff. Laugh

He was as far from limited in his recourse's than you could have been.

PhilBB wrote:not that your final sentence is in anyway accurate.

So Gatland has just as much strength in depth to pick from as Ireland, England, South Africa, Aus, and New Zealand ?

Yeah, righto.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:46 am

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:He spent 6 years proving that

What when he was with Cardiff. Laugh

He was as far from limited in his recourse's than you could have been.

PhilBB wrote:not that your final sentence is in anyway accurate.

So Gatland has just as much strength in depth to pick from as Ireland, England, South Africa, Aus, and New Zealand ?

Yeah, righto.

Gatland has as much strength as any European team, yes.

I think that your memories of Young's time with Cardiff are a little skewed if you think that he had plenty of resources. Sure, he had more than those who followed him into that job, but he had only as much as many of his competitors (as Gatland has) and significantly less than some that his team went on to beat (especially in Marseilles in 2010).

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:50 am

PhilBB wrote:All I'm doing is pointing out that it makes no sense and is wholly wrong. Tandy is a modern coach, whose influences are the latest elements of the professional game and these are far greater influences than his own experience from being coached by Lyn Jones. This is where your logic again falls over.

OK, so here we are, I will ignore the rest of your post as it is nonsense. So, Steven Tandy is not as good because he was caoched by Lyn Jones, who himself came through amateurism. Are you with me ?

So my logic is, that the people who Tandy is coaching NOW, if they follow in HIS footsteps and become coaches, then they will be better because they are not touched by amateurism.

I cannot simplify it anymore I'm sorry.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:51 am

PhilBB wrote:Gatland has as much strength as any European team, yes.

B0ll0X.

This just shows how clueless you are.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:53 am

LordDowlais wrote:
OK, so here we are, I will ignore the rest of your post as it is nonsense. So, Steven Tandy is not as good because he was caoched by Lyn Jones, who himself came through amateurism. Are you with me ?

So my logic is, that the people who Tandy is coaching NOW, if they follow in HIS footsteps and become coaches, then they will be better because they are not touched by amateurism.

I cannot simplify it anymore I'm sorry.

Can't you see the hole in that logic?

You claimed Tandy isn't a good coach as he's tainted by 'amateurism'. Therefore, why won't the players he's coaching be tainted by 'amateurism'?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:56 am

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:Gatland has as much strength as any European team, yes.

B0ll0X.

This just shows how clueless you are.

Oh dear. I had hoped that we could do better than that.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:35 am

PhilBB wrote:You claimed Tandy isn't a good coach as he's tainted by 'amateurism'. Therefore, why won't the players he's coaching be tainted by 'amateurism'?

Yes, but that amateurism is slowly getting diluted as the more people are being exposed to professionalism. Lyn Jones was an amateur player, who went on to become an amatuer/pro coach. He then coached professional players, like Steve Tandy, so he is getting coached by an amateurish coach. Steve who is now a pro player is going to to be a pro coach, but was coached by Lyn.

The players coming through after the likes of Steve Tandy will have had nothing to do with the amateur ways, thus will be fully professional from the get go. Now please you are making my head hurt.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:38 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Yes, but that amateurism is slowly getting diluted as the more people are being exposed to professionalism. Lyn Jones was an amateur player, who went on to become an amatuer/pro coach. He then coached professional players, like Steve Tandy, so he is getting coached by an amateurish coach. Steve who is now a pro player is going to to be a pro coach, but was coached by Lyn.

The players coming through after the likes of Steve Tandy will have had nothing to do with the amateur ways, thus will be fully professional from the get go. Now please you are making my head hurt.

Ok, if you work on that logic, can't you see that Tandy can accelerate that process by himself being more influenced by modern practice than by what Lyn Jones told him 20 years ago? If you can, you must see that criticising Tandy for his background is unfair as he has shaken that off due to his modern employment.

That's all.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:40 am

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:Gatland has as much strength as any European team, yes.

B0ll0X.

This just shows how clueless you are.

Oh dear. I had hoped that we could do better than that.

Show me are strength in depth compared to England and Ireland, but firstly let me just point you towards the beatings we took from Englands second team a few weeks ago and the Irish second team in Cardiff before the world cup.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:48 am

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Yes, but that amateurism is slowly getting diluted as the more people are being exposed to professionalism. Lyn Jones was an amateur player, who went on to become an amatuer/pro coach. He then coached professional players, like Steve Tandy, so he is getting coached by an amateurish coach. Steve who is now a pro player is going to to be a pro coach, but was coached by Lyn.

The players coming through after the likes of Steve Tandy will have had nothing to do with the amateur ways, thus will be fully professional from the get go. Now please you are making my head hurt.

Ok, if you work on that logic, can't you see that Tandy can accelerate that process by himself being more influenced by modern practice than by what Lyn Jones told him 20 years ago? If you can, you must see that criticising Tandy for his background is unfair as he has shaken that off due to his modern employment.

That's all.

Yes I agree, he can shake it off, but he isn't though is he ? Look at how rubbish Ospreys were last season. He has the players there, there is no way they should be where they are. But that is an aside issue.

Steve can now pass on his fully professional experience onto say AWJ and hopefully AWJ can become a very good regional coach, who could then potentially go on to coach Wales. AWJ is pro from start to finish, professional coach for professional players. We will not get this until the next generation of coaches come around. Only then will the amateurism be completely diluted out of our systems.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by Sin é on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 11:56 am

PhilBB wrote:
Sin é wrote:
The Welsh regions didn't earn anything like what the Irish Provinces would have earned from the ERC because of the merit payments, cuts of gate receipts etc. If the Welsh Regions performed better, had better gates, they would have had a better income from the ERC as well via the WRU.

Like getting to a HEC semi final in 2009, you mean?

If PRW teams had won that kind of money it would have gone to paying off debts whereas Munster just roll on the term, not pay much back and spend the rest on wages.

See the difference?

Munster have been to about 12 semi and 4 finals over the years which they IRFU have retained the merit payments for. They also invested in its two stadia, one 26K one which the IRFU take a cut of the gate.

Remind me how many stadia the Welsh Regions have developed and how much of a cut of the gate the WRU gets when they get to a semi final in Europe?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by wayne on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Yes, but that amateurism is slowly getting diluted as the more people are being exposed to professionalism. Lyn Jones was an amateur player, who went on to become an amatuer/pro coach. He then coached professional players, like Steve Tandy, so he is getting coached by an amateurish coach. Steve who is now a pro player is going to to be a pro coach, but was coached by Lyn.

The players coming through after the likes of Steve Tandy will have had nothing to do with the amateur ways, thus will be fully professional from the get go. Now please you are making my head hurt.

Ok, if you work on that logic, can't you see that Tandy can accelerate that process by himself being more influenced by modern practice than by what Lyn Jones told him 20 years ago? If you can, you must see that criticising Tandy for his background is unfair as he has shaken that off due to his modern employment.

That's all.

Yes I agree, he can shake it off, but he isn't though is he ? Look at how rubbish Ospreys were last season. He has the players there, there is no way they should be where they are. But that is an aside issue.

Steve can now pass on his fully professional experience onto say AWJ and hopefully AWJ can become a very good regional coach, who could then potentially go on to coach Wales. AWJ is pro from start to finish, professional coach for professional players. We will not get this until the next generation of coaches come around. Only then will the amateurism be completely diluted out of our systems.
Lord, let me just start by saying I only get to read Phills posts when he is quoted on here as he is on my Ignore list, so I don't follow all these posts.
Let me just say you've quoted the Rugby Paper in the past so I know you read it, if you read last weeks edition you would see why we had a terrible season, as perfectly illustrated by the Peter Jackson 2 page article, as you've been repeatedly told, outside of the International windows we earned more points in the Guinness League than the eventual winners, as you've been repeatedly told the lack of money and the crippling injuries carried its toll.
Let me finally say Steve Tandy IMO has done a decent job, considering his only previous Coaching experience was with Bridgend RFC, I believe he could do with a bit more experienced Coaching experience around him, but at least Brad Davis is a step in the right direction, and just to tell you AGAIN, because it has been mentioned by myself on here before now, Steve, Gruff Rees and Tom Smith went on a month sabbatical to the Southern Hemisphere I presume Gibbes was already down there so would have joined in with the experience, before last season spending 2 weeks with an Australian franchise and the following 2 weeks with a New Zealand Super 15 team, as has been pointed out to you, these Coaches are getting updated on a regular basis.   
So to put it all into context when we have our first team squad available we are a match for most teams (Exeter excepted, very poor performance) the crippling injury list and the lack of money to have adequate replacements were a very big part in how our season panned out.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by Griff on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:33 pm

I'm really struggling with LD's logic: is he really saying that coaches who were amateur players, before professionalism in 1995, are amateur coaches and therefore rubbish? And also those who were coached by amateurs are also rubbish coaches due to 'amateurism'? That's pretty much all of the pro coaches past and present, apart from a few young pups near the start of their coaching careers who would obviously be very inexperienced. Schmidt, Eddie Jones, Gatland, Woodward, Jake White, Hansen, Etc. were all amateurs and were all coached by amateurs. In fact, if you do the maths: a player who started his career at the start of professionalism, so his whole playing career was in the pro era, let's say he was 18 in 1995 at the start of his career. He'd now be only 39. I doubt he would have had the chance to coach any players who are now pro coaches themselves. He would probably not long be retired from playing!

I've seen this argument from LD before and it doesn't stack up.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:42 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Show me are strength in depth compared to England and Ireland, but firstly let me just point you towards the beatings we took from Englands second team a few weeks ago and the Irish second team in Cardiff before the world cup.

How would you like to judge such a strength in depth? For, when you point to the 'beatings', I'll point to the woeful coaching that you yourself mentioned.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:44 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Yes I agree, he can shake it off, but he isn't though is he ? Look at how rubbish Ospreys were last season. He has the players there, there is no way they should be where they are. But that is an aside issue.

Steve can now pass on his fully professional experience onto say AWJ and hopefully AWJ can become a very good regional coach, who could then potentially go on to coach Wales. AWJ is pro from start to finish, professional coach for professional players. We will not get this until the next generation of coaches come around. Only then will the amateurism be completely diluted out of our systems.

The Ospreys won more points outside of the international window last season than did Connacht. The season before, when Tandy had a full squad, the Ospreys came third despite the obvious financial disparity. They over performed. You seem to have forgotten those two key factors.

AWJ is no more a professional coach for professional players than is Tandy as, by your own logic, AWJ was coached for years by Lyn Jones. Just as Tandy was.

These are three factors why your point is not logical.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:46 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munster have been to about 12 semi and 4 finals over the years which they IRFU have retained the merit payments for. They also invested in its two stadia, one 26K one which the IRFU take a cut of the gate.

Remind me how many stadia the Welsh Regions have developed and how much of a cut of the gate the WRU gets when they get to a semi final in Europe?

No, they haven't 'retained the payments for'. They used much of it to build Munster a stadium that Munster owe millions on.

Munster can take all the plaudits in the world for 'developing stadia' once they've actually paid for it instead of ripping money out of the rest of the game in Ireland to appease their own failings.

In Wales, we keep what we earn and we carry our own debts. That's what should happen everywhere, in a transparent and honest system.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:48 pm

wayne wrote:
Lord, let me just start by saying I only get to read Phills posts when he is quoted on here as he is on my Ignore list, so I don't follow all these posts.

The reason I'm on Wayne's ignore list as he claimed that Underhill wasn't being paid by the Ospreys, despite the Accounts of all three organisations - Llandarcy Park (Ospreys), Ospreys and Bridgend - proving that he was.

I've kept the abusive PMs from Wayne on this subject.

So, take what he claims with the mountain of salt required when it comes to matters of fact.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:49 pm

Griff wrote:
I've seen this argument from LD before and it doesn't stack up.

It doesn't.

I think that he likes to have a bit of a rant without thinking it through.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by gcBlues on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:08 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:He spent 6 years proving that

What when he was with Cardiff. Laugh

He was as far from limited in his recourse's than you could have been.

So, in your view, he should drop the job he's doing at wasps to manage the dragons in preparation for the welsh job?

Seems like you're a few spanners short of a toolbox old boy. loopy

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:29 pm

gcBlues wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:He spent 6 years proving that

What when he was with Cardiff. Laugh

He was as far from limited in his recourse's than you could have been.

So, in your view, he should drop the job he's doing at wasps to manage the dragons in preparation for the welsh job?

Seems like you're a few spanners short of a toolbox old boy. loopy

But isn't that what kiwi's expect from future all blacks coaches? They like them to be coaching a super rugby side prior to coaching the all blacks, even if the coach is currently an international head coach. So surely if that is what they do in New Zealand, then that is what we should be doing in Wales.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by GavinDragon on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:36 pm

Can some one remind me where we are now in terms of the financial arrangement between the WRU and regions? What do the WRU pay the regions?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:40 pm

GavinDragon wrote:Can some one remind me where we are now in terms of the financial arrangement between the WRU and regions? What do the WRU pay the regions?

In year end 2015, it was £7,034,000 plus £2,000,000 for the NDC.

Competition money was £8,129,000

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by GavinDragon on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:43 pm

And what was the payment(s) under Roger Lewis? Or was this agreement brokered by him?

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:44 pm

GavinDragon wrote:And what was the payment(s) under Roger Lewis? Or was this agreement brokered by him?

His agreement has another 4 years left to run.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by GavinDragon on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:45 pm

Ah. So what kind of payment do we think is likely in 4 years time. Appreciate this will be complete guesses but interested to know thoughts.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by Sin é on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:55 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Sin é wrote:
The Welsh regions didn't earn anything like what the Irish Provinces would have earned from the ERC because of the merit payments, cuts of gate receipts etc. If the Welsh Regions performed better, had better gates, they would have had a better income from the ERC as well via the WRU.

Like getting to a HEC semi final in 2009, you mean?

If PRW teams had won that kind of money it would have gone to paying off debts whereas Munster just roll on the term, not pay much back and spend the rest on wages.

See the difference?

You are missing everything.

Any merit payments won by any of the Irish Provinces (including half the gates from European semi finals) never reached the Province that actually won them. That was all part of the IRFU's income.

Have you missed it that Munster have developed two stadia or are you just ignoring that fact as it doesn't suit your argument. You prefer that they wasted their money on wages.

You have not answered my question as to how many of the Regions had to build their own stadia yet. I hope all their money is not going on wages.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by gcBlues on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:56 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
gcBlues wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:He spent 6 years proving that

What when he was with Cardiff. Laugh

He was as far from limited in his recourse's than you could have been.

So, in your view, he should drop the job he's doing at wasps to manage the dragons in preparation for the welsh job?

Seems like you're a few spanners short of a toolbox old boy. loopy

But isn't that what kiwi's expect from future all blacks coaches?  They like them to be coaching a super rugby side prior to coaching the all blacks, even if the coach is currently an international head coach.  So surely if that is what they do in New Zealand, then that is what we should be doing in Wales.

But does that apply to a coach who already had success at a region and left to a bigger club in England and turned them around also?

Would it not be beneficial from him to come straight from that environment rather than coming back to a region? Just seems a bit obscure to request that.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:56 pm

GavinDragon wrote:Ah. So what kind of payment do we think is likely in 4 years time. Appreciate this will be complete guesses but interested to know thoughts.

Impossible to know.

The RFU are offering £27.5m a year for their next deal.

The French are paying €23m over 4 years on top of a payment of €1300 per player per day that players are with Team France. If you make it 15 weeks a year, that's 105 days x €1300 x 30 players = €4.1m, which brings it to about €10m a year PLUS payments for u21 players.

It's not an easy like for like comparison.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

Post by PhilBB on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 3:01 pm

Sin é wrote:
Any merit payments won by any of the Irish Provinces (including half the gates from European semi finals) never reached the Province that actually won them. That was all part of the IRFU's income.

Have you missed it that Munster have developed two stadia or are you just ignoring that fact as it doesn't suit your argument. You prefer that they wasted their money on wages.

You have not answered my question as to how many of the Regions had to build their own stadia yet. I hope all their money is not going on wages.

I know where the knockout cash went.

Munster haven't developed two stadia. Let's be honest about it. Do you want to show us how the redevelopments were financed? Maybe you'd like to start with the €4.3m purchase of houses around Thomond Park by the IRFU? How do you think that was paid for? Magic beans? Maybe we can address the government grants, the Council gifts? The Lottery grant? The actual money from Munster rugby towards each venue has been proportionately small.

PRW teams rent their grounds. Can you imagine that? Actually paying to use the ground instead of just asking the IRFU to write it off for another year?

Remind me how much Ulster rugby paid for the IRFU asset upgrade at Ravenhill? Or how much Leinster's contribution is to RDS? Or how much Connacht paid towards their upgrade?

Now, this is a thread about Welsh rugby so if you want to write up that reply and put in a new thread entitled "UK and Irish Government Grants to Irish rugby" then that would be grand.

I can't wait to see the figures.

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Re: State of the Union in Wales

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