England 2nd best team in the world?

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Post by wrfc1980 on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:10 pm

England are on the verge of going to 2nd in the world rankings. What do people think is their true current standing in the world? I would say that England are now clear of Wales/Ireland in the NH and are on their own as the best NH team. For the last few years there's been nothing separating Ireland/Wales and England but I feel momentum has shifted and England have inched ahead. They are probably vying for the 2nd spot in the world alongside the Aussies and SA but are a fair bit behind NZ. Is this a fair assessment?

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Post by eirebilly on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:13 pm

I think that it is fair to say that England are currently the second best team in the world. 6N grand slammers and I feel they are a better side than Australia and SA. The makings were there under Lancaster but Jones has brought that extra structure and clinical finishing. Top quality side.
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Post by beshocked on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:22 pm

Let's not get ahead of ourselves, need to beat the Aussies first, series isn't over yet.

If England beat Australia then yes perhaps England can call themselves, 2nd best in the world but Australia aren't going to throw in the towel are they?

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:24 pm

After the 6 Nations I said that England would win at least one game this summer and before long Jones would have them back in the top three sooner rather than later.

Well I know reckon they'll win the series and if that puts them upto 2nd in the rankings I think its right at the moment.

Just wish I wish i could predict the lottery numbers to
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Post by Scottrf on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:25 pm

Yeah I feel we should wait and see in a couple of weeks.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:32 pm

Let's not forget that the games last weekend were the first time the SH teams had been together since the WC. OZ, SA and even to an extent, NZ are all better teams than they appeared last week. The second test and crucially the 3rd, will be when we really see just how far England have come since.

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Post by eirebilly on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:34 pm

I predicted at the start of this England tour that they would win the series comfortably and I still firmly believe that. I feel that England are simply a better team than Australia now.
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Post by lostinwales on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:25 pm

The rise of England is happening at the same time as SA rugby starting to implode. Australia have fantastic players, skills and attitude but it often seems they have problems with depth. In Europe Wales are on a downward trend after a strong period and France are nowhere. Ireland who knows. Poor 6N but good result in SA.

This is another way of saying that England are definitely on the up but the rest of the top rugby teams are not, which makes it easier. It can all change by the next RWC but its a great time to be an England fan.

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Post by Kingshu on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:25 pm

I think that England/Wales and Ireland were all about even in the 2015 6 nations.

I think England under Jones pushed on while Ireland stayed about the same and so did Wales,

I think Ireland will Farrell and blooding some younger players and taken that step forward now as well.

I am not sure yet if England will take another step forward before Ireland, come the 6 nations.

As I see it, its England and close behind its Ireland, and a step back are Wales now.

Meanwhile while they started a lot of steps back, Scotland have been stepping forward every game under Vern Cotter

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Post by Alex_Germany on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:27 pm

England can't call themselves the 2nd best team in the world unless they beat Australia tomorrow.

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Post by beshocked on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:41 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:Let's not forget that the games last weekend were the first time the SH teams had been together since the WC. OZ, SA and even to an extent, NZ are all better teams than they appeared last week. The second test and crucially the 3rd, will be when we really see just how far England have come since.

True but Australia came out of the blocks. It was England who had to settle down, not the Aussies.

Most of England and Ireland's top players hadn't played since the 6 nations coming off the back of a long club season.

Could be more to come from both those sides too.

Australia must find an answer to England's power.

Let's not underestimate how big a blow losing Pocock should be. Losing one of the best players in the world would hurt any team.


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Post by Kingshu on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:41 pm

Its instresting that England could climb up into second this weekend, but there lowest ever rank was 8th and they were there as recently as the end of last year.

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Post by propdavid_london on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 1:48 pm

EJ is paying attention to the rankings and knows that we need to get as high up the order as possible to get a good draw for the WC 2019.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:01 pm

If EJ is looking at the rankings, its to prove his side and him as coach is best.

There is no point in getting high in the rankings merely to get good draws at WCs. If that was all getting to the top needed (such motivation), it would be a crowded place up there!

First you need to be good enough to rise your rankings in the first place - and if you're good enough, that's good enough - that's the goal.

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Post by king_carlos on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:06 pm

I think the current world rankings are a good representation.

New Zealand are by far the best and it's correct that they are close to 10 points ahead in the rankings.

Australia, England, South Africa, Wales and Ireland are all reasonably close so a 5 point separation between those 5 sides is a fair representation. Australia are deservedly above England prior to this weekend but if England can claim an away series win then narrowly leapfrogging Oz in the rankings wouldn't be ridiculous following a grand slam.

Similarly I think it's fair that Ireland will remain just below South Africa if they claim a series win but would likely leapfrog Wales and Argentina. That situation would place them in a very narrow bracket with Aus or England and SA between 3rd-5th. Again a fair representation in the situation.

Both those examples are of course reliant on England and Ireland pulling of two more impressive wins away from home but they are the easier examples to discuss given the shifts they would force in the rankings.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:17 pm

You can earn the points to get a ranking but it's consistency which shows whether you deserve it. I never really had the Australians down as the world's second best team despite their results, because they never looked entirely convincing. England have a good record against them but a terrible one against South Africa.

Realistically, there's one strong team and a bunch of others who can beat each other without so far asserting much dominance. We don't really know where Argentina fits in either because they often seem to play games against NH sides when they are under strength, or else their opponents are.

One odd thing I've noticed: periods of English strength have coincided with extended periods of not playing New Zealand. Our Autumn International calendar this year is South Africa, Fiji, Argentina & Australia. That means our earliest possible fixture against the All Blacks will be autumn 2017, which will be three years since our last meeting when they toured in 2014.

Go back to Will Carling's England, and that team started to gel in the final match of the 1988 Five Nations. We didn't face New Zealand until over three years later at the World Cup in 1991. It was actually our first game against them since 1985, but the first three years of that period weren't great ones for English rugby.

Woodward's England also had a three year gap with no fixtures against New Zealand. We lost to them in October 1999 at the World Cup, and didn't meet again until November 2002.




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Post by Barney McGrew did it on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:31 pm

Rankings are fine and dandy, but it's all coulda shoulda woulda until (1) we win the Aus series and (2) we actually one day beat SA. Neither are done yet.
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Post by SecretFly on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:43 pm

I think England are a movement of a line that started perhaps as far back as Johnson's time in charge.  The curve started to go up until the shenanigans with dwarves and things.  

Then Lancaster gets the cruve going up again smoothly.  They were getting ready for a nice peak but Lancaster shot himself in the foot by completely changing the contours of the side on the eve of the WC itself.

So the curve was stalled there rather than me thinking it dropped too much.  Then Jones came in to add the self-confidence levels (and Boy does he have it in buckets) and the curve has rolled up again.... probably now reaching the levels Lancaster expected the team to be at come the end of the Home World Cup.

So - perhaps this is the beginning of the true test for Jones from here on in.  How high is he going to personally bring the English?  I think the conditioning peak was meticulously planned in England for that Home World Cup.  So will that uniformity of purpose be maintained now?  We all know that England always has so many options that the media inevitably get involved in the choices.  So one loss for Jones and that phase could begin.  Pressure comes on - 'why isn't he picking the alternatives?'

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 3:13 pm

The big change for England has been the development of our academy system. It has (as should be expected) taken time to produce but for whatever reason it does seem to be supplying a decent stream of talent for English clubs and the national team.

Does occasionally make me wonder if the talent has always been there but has been failed by the old system

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Post by profitius on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 3:17 pm

Lets see how they - and the other teams - will do in the next two matches.


Teams on an upward curve
England, Ireland, Scotland,

Teams maintaining their level
Australia, New Zealand, France

Teams on a downward curve
Wales, South Africa,


I think Italy will get stronger next season.
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Post by trebellbobaggins on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 5:19 pm

Probably not no. We will know more after this series.

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:15 pm


Do New Zealand get World ranking Points next year when they beat the Lions?

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:31 pm

Well its nice not to be referred to as a tier 2 nation at the moment....but personally I think just beating Australia in the next test tomorrow will be a monumental effort.

Especially if they play like they did for the first 20 for longer this test!

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 9:59 pm

GF,

I think you'll win and win well. Weather the storm etc then you'll come good.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:23 pm

Well, we might but its not a walk in the park. I actually have a feeling they will win this one.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:25 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Do New Zealand get World ranking Points next year when they beat the Lions?

You obviously haven't seen Sean Robinson the lions captain play...the AB's wont win! Wink

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 10:27 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well, we might but its not a walk in the park. I actually have a feeling they will win this one.

Will make it very interesting and I bet part of Jones would like that to happen as then he could see how players react under a different type of pressure.
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Post by Pot Hale on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 11:02 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Do New Zealand get World ranking Points next year when they beat the Lions?

No. Equally the Lions don't get any ranking points when they beat Australia or South Africa or New Zealand on any occasion.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 17 Jun 2016, 11:19 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Well, we might but its not a walk in the park. I actually have a feeling they will win this one.

Will make it very interesting and I bet part of Jones would like that to happen as then he could see how players react under a different type of pressure.

I think he wold prefer to win this one..so he could trial a few others in the final game....however I agree with you, he wouldn't actually be fazed going into the last game at 1-1...it would be a test to show him the mentality of the players in this squad.

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Post by Steve_rugby on Sat 18 Jun 2016, 12:04 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Do New Zealand get World ranking Points next year when they beat the Lions?
If, and no.

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Sat 18 Jun 2016, 12:17 am

Steve_rugby wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Do New Zealand get World ranking Points next year when they beat the Lions?
If, and no.


Beauty, then we wont lose any either.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 18 Jun 2016, 12:53 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Steve_rugby wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Do New Zealand get World ranking Points next year when they beat the Lions?
If, and no.


Beauty, then we wont lose any either.
Conversely, it's usual for the Home Unions who tour separately without their Lions players to play matches where ranking points are at stake.

If there's a bigger England contingent than Australia in 2013, then that will make our 2017 tour of Argentina interesting, because the Pumas are looking to field full strength sides now.

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Post by Not grey and not a ghost on Sat 18 Jun 2016, 1:15 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Steve_rugby wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Do New Zealand get World ranking Points next year when they beat the Lions?
If, and no.


Beauty, then we wont lose any either.
Conversely, it's usual for the Home Unions who tour separately without their Lions players to play matches where ranking points are at stake.

If there's a bigger England contingent than Australia in 2013, then that will make our 2017 tour of Argentina interesting, because the Pumas are looking to field full strength sides now.

Historically the home nations tours during Lions tours have been against 2nd tier sides (I.e. Canada, USA, Japan or an under-strength Argentina).

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Post by doctor_grey on Sat 18 Jun 2016, 3:33 am

lostinwales wrote:The big change for England has been the development of our academy system. It has (as should be expected) taken time to produce but for whatever reason it does seem to be supplying a decent stream of talent for English clubs and the national team.

Does occasionally make me wonder if the talent has always been there but has been failed by the old system
I think the old system was OK for the amateur era, and also for the beginning of the pro era, which was not so different for player development. However, things continue to evolve. After 2003 there was an uptick in investment in the academies, but it takes a number of years for the harvest to be ready. So I'm guessing, but I would think about 4 years to get the set up right and another 4 years for talent to start percolating through. So maybe around the start of Lancaster's reign the academies were starting to pump more talent through.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 18 Jun 2016, 6:44 am

Not grey and not a ghost wrote:Historically the home nations tours during Lions tours have been against 2nd tier sides (I.e. Canada, USA, Japan or an under-strength Argentina).
Historically, touring teams did not face under-strength Argentinian sides. That was a recent development, as more Pumas found their way up North. Now it looks like we'll be returning to full-strength sides. They were a tough enough prospect at home when they were regarded as a second tier team. If they really are worth a 5th place ranking, then it'll be a risk going down without a large number of your starting XV.

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Sat 18 Jun 2016, 7:52 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Steve_rugby wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Do New Zealand get World ranking Points next year when they beat the Lions?
If, and no.


Beauty, then we wont lose any either.
Conversely, it's usual for the Home Unions who tour separately without their Lions players to play matches where ranking points are at stake.

If there's a bigger England contingent than Australia in 2013, then that will make our 2017 tour of Argentina interesting, because the Pumas are looking to field full strength sides now.

That'll depend if they class it as development tours or full tours. In 2013 when Wales lost to Japan it should have been classed as a development tour but the Worst Run Union in the wisdom deemed it a capped tour and as such rankings points counted.
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Post by Breadvan on Sat 18 Jun 2016, 7:56 am

There's a Pulp Fiction quote here somewhere..
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Post by Steve_rugby on Sat 18 Jun 2016, 8:11 am

Beauty, then we wont lose any either.
You don't know much about rugby then.

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Sat 18 Jun 2016, 10:47 am

Steve_rugby wrote:
Beauty, then we wont lose any either.
You don't know much about rugby then.


Absolutely nothing....

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Post by Steve_rugby on Sat 18 Jun 2016, 10:57 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Steve_rugby wrote:
Beauty, then we wont lose any either.
You don't know much about rugby then.

 
Absolutely nothing....
I thought so.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 18 Jun 2016, 11:01 am

Am I being thick? They can't lose ranking points vs the Lions.

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Post by Poorfour on Sat 18 Jun 2016, 4:10 pm

Yes. Yes, I think they are now the second best team in the world.
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Post by DaveM on Sat 18 Jun 2016, 4:27 pm

Yep, second best in the world now.

Given the huge potential for improvement England have, and the strength in depth coming through, I reckon this World Cup cycle may well be all about the growing rivalry between England and New Zealand (helped by the fact they won't play for a while).

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Post by doctor_grey on Sun 19 Jun 2016, 12:24 pm

It's an exciting prospect, finally being discussed tith the All Blacks. But, I think we all know this England team is still a work in progress. I would rather worry about our own performances agaist whomever we play rather than comparisons with anyone else. I don't care so much about the rankings except as it impacts RWC seedings. Instead, would want to see improvement in each game and then see how the ball bounces.

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Sun 19 Jun 2016, 12:33 pm

DaveM wrote:Yep, second best in the world now.

Given the huge potential for improvement England have, and the strength in depth coming through, I reckon this World Cup cycle may well be all about the growing rivalry between England and New Zealand (helped by the fact they won't play for a while).

Not until next years AIs at the earliest and they haven't been announced yet, so could even be summer 2018 before they clash.
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Post by TJ on Sun 19 Jun 2016, 12:33 pm

Maybe. Still a bit to prove after the WC flop.

NZ are still clearly the best with England / SA / Aus pushing them but Aus have fallen away a bit

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Sun 19 Jun 2016, 12:34 pm

Despite their second half come back SA seem to be in disarray at the moment.
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Post by Biltong on Sun 19 Jun 2016, 12:34 pm

After a decade of dominance inspite of their decline SA is still ahead of England
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 19 Jun 2016, 12:51 pm

Biltong wrote:After a decade of dominance inspite of their decline SA is still ahead of England

You wish!

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Post by Biltong on Sun 19 Jun 2016, 1:08 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Biltong wrote:After a decade of dominance inspite of their decline SA is still ahead of England

You wish!

Wish what?
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