Could Ireland host a Rugby World Cup?

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Post by ruggerbyplayer on Sat 04 Jun 2011, 7:02 pm

Could Ireland launch a credible RWC bid in the next 5-10 years? I don't see why not. There are already 3 fantastic stadiums in Dublin - the RDS (18,500), the Aviva (51,700) and Croke Park (82,300) as well as Thomond Park (26,500). If Ravenhill were to be upgraded and 2/3 more state-of-the-art stadiums built, Ireland would be well capable of hosting a World Cup.


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Post by MBTGOG on Sat 04 Jun 2011, 7:05 pm

Where would the money come from for "2/3 more state-of-the-art stadiums"?

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Post by ruggerbyplayer on Sat 04 Jun 2011, 7:10 pm

MBTGOG

Levy a 'Stadium Tax' on alcohol? Think how much the government could raise...

You're right though. Ireland isn't in a position for major state spending. But perphaps in 5-10 years they will be. I just couldn't stomach a joint bid with Scotland.

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Post by Thomond on Sat 04 Jun 2011, 7:12 pm

If some of the GAA stadiums were used then yes. A few of them have room for 40,000 or 50,000 people although the majority of that is standing. We don't have the money for more state ofthe art stadiums. There is also no reason for building them as they wouldn't be used after.

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Post by Shifty on Sat 04 Jun 2011, 7:23 pm

Not on their own no...
No 6 Nation side can bid for a World Cup without Wales agreeing to it. When Wales hosted the 1999 tournament they gave a pool to the other 6 Nation sides. In return each of those nations signed a legally binding contract to include Wales in any future bid they make to host a tournement.
Wales have to waiver this right if any country wants to host it alone. Thats one of the reason why England lost the last World cup in France. Wales did play most of their games in Cardiff in the French tournment, England wanted it only in their country, hence didnt get the bid off the ground, as Wales supported France, and England couldnt go ahead without Wales agreement.
Also as for Irelands bid well no I dont think they can afford to make a solo bid, what the IRB wants in financial terms it a crazy amount of money funded by a nations goverment. Ireland it close to bankrupt at the moment and couldnt afford to hold it, even if Wales allowed them to have it!
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Post by Notch on Sat 04 Jun 2011, 7:30 pm

No, the simple answer is Ireland can't afford to host such an event.

However I think an Ireland/Scotland/Wales RWC could be a runner; nothing would need to be built. Ravenhill is being upgraded to 18000 anyway.

Millenium Stadium, Cardiff (Final); 74,500
Cardiff City Stadium, Cardiff; 26,826
Liberty Stadium, Swansea; 20,532
Parc Y Scarlets, Llanelli; 14,870

Murrayfield, Edinburgh (semi-final); 67,130
Hampden Park, Glasgow; 52,103
Pittodrie, Aberdeen; 22,199
Firhill, Glasgow; 13,079

Croke Park*, Dublin (semi-final); 82,300
Lansdowne Road, Dublin (3rd Place playoff); 51,700
Thomond Park, Limerick; 26,500
RDS, Dublin; 18,500
Ravenhill, Belfast; approx. 18,000 after redevelopment


*Even if they couldn't get Croker they'd still have a strong bid. A Celtic Nations bid could be really successful at some point in the future I think.
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Post by Shifty on Sat 04 Jun 2011, 8:00 pm

Giving Scotland a any rugby World Cup games is a waste of time, they cant sell out their stadium regardless of how cheap they put their tickets or what team they are playing against.
The only time they sell out is the 6 Nations because visiting fans pile into their country. From everyone Ive spoken to who goes up to watch Wales, playing at Murrayfield is like a home game for most teams because its all red and the odd spot of blue!
Rugby is dead in Scotland I'm afraid.
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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 04 Jun 2011, 9:55 pm

NO, Is the simple answer.

Not on their own any how?

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 04 Jun 2011, 9:59 pm

NO, Is the simple answer.

Not on their own any how?

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Post by nottins on Sun 05 Jun 2011, 12:56 am

AlynDavies wrote:Giving Scotland a any rugby World Cup games is a waste of time, they cant sell out their stadium regardless of how cheap they put their tickets or what team they are playing against.

They manage to fill the stadium for the Calcutta Cup games. Giving Wales any World Cup games is also a waste of time.

In answer to the OP's question, no.

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Post by doctor_grey on Sun 05 Jun 2011, 1:33 am

The WRU will support any effort as long as they are able to horse-trade their support in order to host matches in Millenium. They did it with France 2007 and England 2015. Surprised they didn't latch on to any of the NZ matches.

Seriously, an all Celtic RWC has a lot of attraction. Sufficient large and mid-size stadia to make a serious go of it. Combined, they have more than enough hotel space as well. The unique cultures of all three nations would be a marketing dream. I think it would be a grand idea. Don't think Ireland could do it alone, but this Celtic concept is a good idea.

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Post by Glas a du on Sun 05 Jun 2011, 8:20 am

How many games are there in a world cup?

Is the problem with ticket sales the lack of ownership countries feel for the WC. Let's face it whenever there has been a WC in the 6N countries it's only the final that happens in that country, everybody else takes their pool away.

If it is a hiberno-cambrian Bid what is there to stop multiple games at the same ground? A pool per stadium in the mid sized grounds and then move to the big stadiums from the quarters on. Fans would be concentrated in a lesser area and would only have to move across the Irish sea. My mate is going to NZ and a whole WC package will cost him 17k due to all of the transfer flights he'll have to take. PYS is 15 minutes by car from the Liberty and an hour from the CCS and Milenium Stadium. Thomond to Ravenhill 3-4 hours by train? Belfast to Cardiff 8-9 hours by car and ferry?
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Post by doctor_grey on Sun 05 Jun 2011, 11:08 am

Glas,
48 matches in this year's RWC.
I agree that an Ireland-Wales-Scotland bid would be good. Getting from ground to ground, or city to city would be relatively easy. Besides, all major matches would be held in Millenium, Murrayfield, or Aviva (possibly Croke, as well). The other matches could be held in the home grounds of many of the existing ML teams (no significant investment needed). Would have a massive impact on Rugby in each country. Could possibly save Rugby in Scotland.

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Post by Standulstermen on Sun 05 Jun 2011, 11:16 am

IT would all depend on by GAA were open to letting the rugby use their stadia. Casement Park will be transformed into 40000 all seater by then. As a publican i would love it but i can see it happening

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Post by The_Hound_of_Harrow on Sun 05 Jun 2011, 11:50 am

Judging by this year's tournament, and France 2007, any country wanting to host a RWC needs 10 suitable venues with a minimum capacity of probably 20,000 spectators. Then the IRB like the pool stage games to move around. In this year's tourny most pools have at least four venues.

Whether the IRB would relax that criteria is open to speculation. But the venue issue alone would make a pan-Celtic bid difficult. The travel infrastructure would need heavy investment to be capable of moving all the fans between the different venues.

In terms of venues, Scotland probably have half a dozen 20,000+ stadia inluding football grounds, Wales have possibly 4 (PyS?) and Ireland would struggle for 3 unless the GAA could be persuaded to open its doors.

I think the grounds may not be a problem, but the huge cost to make it a reality could be a problem.

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Post by red_stag on Sun 05 Jun 2011, 2:44 pm

Not a chance Ireland could do it. A celtic bid COULD work but still isn't all that realistic IMO. I'd expect to see Japan, USA and Italy get World Cups before us and then Australia, France, South Africa and England to get another go.
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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs on Sun 05 Jun 2011, 7:46 pm

AlynDavies wrote:Giving Scotland a any rugby World Cup games is a waste of time, they cant sell out their stadium regardless of how cheap they put their tickets or what team they are playing against.
The only time they sell out is the 6 Nations because visiting fans pile into their country. From everyone Ive spoken to who goes up to watch Wales, playing at Murrayfield is like a home game for most teams because its all red and the odd spot of blue!
Rugby is dead in Scotland I'm afraid.
What a muppet, do you actually know anything about rugby in Scotland or did you simply feel that wasn't necessary for your grandiose comments? 🤦


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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs on Sun 05 Jun 2011, 7:48 pm

ruggerbyplayer wrote:MBTGOG

Levy a 'Stadium Tax' on alcohol? Think how much the government could raise...

You're right though. Ireland isn't in a position for major state spending. But perphaps in 5-10 years they will be. I just couldn't stomach a joint bid with Scotland.

Rbp, love the idea, but your government is broke - imperative infrastructure projects have been put on hold for the next couple of years, and it's still likely that further refinancing will be required. But I do love your enthusiasm


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Post by red_stag on Sun 05 Jun 2011, 11:06 pm

It seems that the enthusiasm for rugby is still ripe in Scotland, however the Union is unable to harvest it properly. It seems the problem is with the professional teams - Glasgow and Edinburgh.
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Post by Biltong on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 6:39 am

A Celtic hosted RWC will be a great spectacle.

However due to the fact the the RWC is now all about money, and the actual sport is secondary, it is unlikeley to ever be hosted there.

Unless of course the governments give a guarantee to cover all losses.
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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 8:26 am

AlynDavies wrote:Giving Scotland a any rugby World Cup games is a waste of time, they cant sell out their stadium regardless of how cheap they put their tickets or what team they are playing against.

Yeah, because the millenium stadium was packed to capacity on saturday for the Baa Baa's wasn't it 🤦

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Post by red_stag on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 8:47 am

Don't feed the trolls Radge Smile
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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 10:36 am

red_stag wrote:It seems that the enthusiasm for rugby is still ripe in Scotland, however the Union is unable to harvest it properly. It seems the problem is with the professional teams - Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Staggy, I'm not so sure - there's always a danger to reading to much into one season - so just as I don't put too much weight on Glasgow reaching the play-offs in 09/10 and Embra nearly joining them, equally I wouldn't put too much credence on last season's terrible showing, particularly as there were good reasons for why both teams did so poorly. To be honest, I foresee a couple of years of mid-table mediocrity! However, perhaps you meant the drop-off in average gate, which is concerning, yet set against that the overall increase in participation in the support nationally - it's a tricky one OK

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Post by red_stag on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 10:41 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
red_stag wrote:It seems that the enthusiasm for rugby is still ripe in Scotland, however the Union is unable to harvest it properly. It seems the problem is with the professional teams - Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Staggy, I'm not so sure - there's always a danger to reading to much into one season - so just as I don't put too much weight on Glasgow reaching the play-offs in 09/10 and Embra nearly joining them, equally I wouldn't put too much credence on last season's terrible showing, particularly as there were good reasons for why both teams did so poorly. To be honest, I foresee a couple of years of mid-table mediocrity! However, perhaps you meant the drop-off in average gate, which is concerning, yet set against that the overall increase in participation in the support nationally - it's a tricky one OK

Yes I'm speaking about enthusiasm rather than playing ability. To me it must be a worry at how many top class Scots are leaving the country. Glasgow and Edinburgh are not drawing in crowds and yet Scottish people turn out to watch ineternational rugby in Murrayfield.

This tier with the Magners teams is the one that is most troublesome and seems at odds. Despite a proud rugby culture, a decent international side and a handful of very good players they are unable to bring people to watch the games weekly.
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Post by rodders on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 10:42 am

Didn't Ireland and Scotland put in a joint bid before or at least discuss putting in a joint bid? 2007 maybe?
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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 10:57 am

red_stag wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
red_stag wrote:It seems that the enthusiasm for rugby is still ripe in Scotland, however the Union is unable to harvest it properly. It seems the problem is with the professional teams - Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Staggy, I'm not so sure - there's always a danger to reading to much into one season - so just as I don't put too much weight on Glasgow reaching the play-offs in 09/10 and Embra nearly joining them, equally I wouldn't put too much credence on last season's terrible showing, particularly as there were good reasons for why both teams did so poorly. To be honest, I foresee a couple of years of mid-table mediocrity! However, perhaps you meant the drop-off in average gate, which is concerning, yet set against that the overall increase in participation in the support nationally - it's a tricky one OK

Yes I'm speaking about enthusiasm rather than playing ability. To me it must be a worry at how many top class Scots are leaving the country. Glasgow and Edinburgh are not drawing in crowds and yet Scottish people turn out to watch ineternational rugby in Murrayfield.

This tier with the Magners teams is the one that is most troublesome and seems at odds. Despite a proud rugby culture, a decent international side and a handful of very good players they are unable to bring people to watch the games weekly.

Hmm, yes the exodus is worrying, but if the two pro-clubs honestly cannot afford to pay these guys (Ross Ford aside, ha, ha!), then it's inevitable that in this professional age that players will move on that otherwise you'd rather keep. We could moan about it, but I prefer to see it as an opportunity to bring on some of our more talented youngsters perhaps earlier than they might have been - that said, seeing players like Alex Blair and Fraser Brown being cut on the back of injury-dominated seasons is very poor. In an ideal world, if the finances were available, a third or fourth side would be just the ticket for Scotland imo, altho not everyone will agree - then we could keep the top pro's, put in place proper academies to develop the youngsters, etc. - but we're just so far from that it's not even funny! furious

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 11:12 am

I actually stopped going to Edinburgh games last season, despite having a season ticket. Moffat was to blame for that one. New management now, and the backbone of a very decent looking team I expect good things from the burgh this year.

Couple that with the fact that the Management at edinburgh have listened to the fan's criticims of poor atmospheres at games have made efforts to make murrayfield feel a little more intimate instead of just swallowing the 3000-4000 fans that Edinburgh attracted under Robbo. Getting the fans closer to the pitch with standing sections is a small step but a step none the less.

As for Ireland hosting a world cup, unlikely I would say. I think a Joint celtic bid has more potential but I reckon the RWC will be with developing nations for the next wee while.
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Post by Intotouch on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 3:07 pm

There are enough stadiums in Ireland to host it with the GAA on board. The season (GAA) would have to change but only by a week or two. If the WC starts in September that is.

It's the crazy cost for the privilege of hosting the thing that would stop us. Where is the government going to get €100million from or whatever the hell it is now to host it from?

Where are the three Celtic countries going to get it from? Could the three unions together borrow that money? I doubt it. The SRU are still in debt and i think the same is true of the other unions, all due to building stadiums.

Could the Welsh assembly even have the ability/authority to borrow such sums of money?

If there's one thing that i am sure of is that if the cost of tickets were reasonable the tickets would sell in Ireland. Everyone here loves big events (and of course a good party).


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Post by Standulstermen on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 3:18 pm

I would hope that Italy will get the cup soon. That being said do they have the stadia (given that the football season will preclude the use of some stadiums) . I cant recall how France managed that issue

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Post by mrsuperclear on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 3:24 pm

There aren't really enough stadiums with the GAA on board though. Thurles, Páirc Uí Chaoimh, Pearse and all the rest of them aren't all seater. They'd need to be converted. So, in reality, the GAA could only provide Croke Park and Casement Park which they obviously wouldn't necessarily do. So the cost of developing the stadiums (GAA stadiums that doesn't benefit rugby in the long run - why would the IRFU help a competing sport?) and underwriting the losses the RWC would make all adds up to a very unattractive thing for the IRFU to invest in. Unless there's a small wee cub about the place that's about to blossom into a new Celtic Tiger I really don't see this happening any time in the next 30 years.

Oh and roddersm, Ireland and Scotland bid for the football Euro 2008 a few years ago. That might be what you were thinking about. As far as I'm aware we never bid for the RWC.


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Post by MBTGOG on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 3:25 pm

Into,

No the GAA season wouldn't have to be shortened as no stadium other than Croke Park is used in September.

Stand,

I'd guess that the Rugby World Cup would get precedence as those clubs would make a good deal of money renting out their stadiums.

MrsSuperClear,

The stadiums don't have to be all seater. A lot in New Zealand won't be.

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Post by mrsuperclear on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 3:28 pm

Do they not MBTGOG? That's interesting. I just assumed that they would have had to have been all-seater. My mistake. It's MR superclear by the way though mate Wink


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Post by Standulstermen on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 3:29 pm

Fair comment MBTGOG but they have their own fixtures to fulfil. The San Siro or stadio Olimpico is surely used continuosly as they serve two teams? Im not sure either way but a rugby holiday in the north of italy sounds very good to me 8)

MrSuperclear

By the time Ireland would be applying for a world cup Casement Park will be an all seater 40000 capacity. I would also say that Windsor park might accomodate some games as it will be done up.

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Post by MBTGOG on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 3:36 pm

Stand,

I think that there would just be some very busy groundsmen changing the pitch dimensions and lines from mid-week to weekend.

MrSuper,

My apologies for the extra S, which changes the whole notion of your moniker.

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 06 Jun 2011, 3:41 pm

mrsuperclear wrote:Do they not MBTGOG? That's interesting. I just assumed that they would have had to have been all-seater. My mistake.

RWC 2011 grounds

Eden Park, North Harbour Stadium, Waikato Stadium, Wellington Regional Stadium*, Otago Stadium* (and pre-earthquake Canterbury Stadium*) are all fully seated. All of the rest (I think) are a mix of seated and standing.

*Note, for the RWC sponsors' names have been removed from grounds - so i.e. Westpac Stadium (the Cake Tin), Forsythe-Barr Stadium (the new one in Dunedin at University Oval) and AMI Stadium (Lancaster Park)
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