The Final Smackdown - South Africa v Ireland 25 June 2016

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Post by Pot Hale on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 5:45 pm

It's the one we all secretly hoped for - winning a test and being in with a chance to win the series.

The Boks transformed and then re-transformed somewhere in the middle of the second half of the second test. Ireland blew it.

Now there's a chance for Redemption or Ridicule.

At least Bok fans can't say Ireland haven't won a test away in South Africa anymore.....

Or when Irish fans point out after Saturday that the head-to-head record since 2000 is P 12, W 5 L 7, Bok fans won't say yeah but those wins were all at home, and Ireland haven't played in SA since 2004.

Small victories.....

In fact, come to think of it, when was the last time that South Africa toured Ireland, eh? Let's get the re-match set up now. November 2019, three-test tour by SA in Ireland, NZ can take on England, Argentina in Wales and Australia in Scotland. I'd buy tickets for those.

Meanwhile, there's a match on Saturday - same time, same place - different result??

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 6:28 pm

If South Africa didn't play in airborne stadiums we might have a better record Wink Nobody said 'bring wings'.

Oh this is going to be a tough one because they have tons of renewed confidence now and they're bloody damn good enough to utilise it to the max if Ireland come out and do a rabbit in headlights routine (Argentina)...................... we're overdue one of those games, to be honest about it.  The last at the weekend was a give-away yes, but with a lot of mitigation involved, namely altitude exhaustion Wink

Another risk now is if Ireland comes out and tries to overcompensate.  Murray mentioned 'anger'.  Well, that's all fine if it's used in the right way.  If it's channelled by some inexperienced players the wrong way then there is a potential for 'Ridicule'.

Joe has to get his substitutions right on the day.  It's going to be another long day at the office but only this time I think the day will start earlier.  The SA boys will want to begin right where they left off.  Game could be over in the first half.

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Post by Notch on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 6:31 pm

We can do it. Definitely we are capable. Stander, Dillane, Marshall, Earls, Murphy, Ross all coming back giving us some fresh legs. Tactics likely to be the right ones. Fear factor over the Boks well and truly gone.

Will be interesting to see whether politics enters into their selection with Mvovo vs Combrink and Whitely vs Kolisi.
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Post by Biltong on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 6:54 pm

Chances for victory over SA will come more frequently now, enjoy
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 6:59 pm

Biltong wrote:Chances for victory over SA will come more frequently now, enjoy

Doubtful. They're still better than England apparently!

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Post by Biltong on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 8:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Biltong wrote:Chances for victory over SA will come more frequently now, enjoy

Doubtful. They're still better than England apparently!

Hell, you just can't handle any reasoning other than your own, can you?
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 8:51 pm

Biltong wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Biltong wrote:Chances for victory over SA will come more frequently now, enjoy

Doubtful. They're still better than England apparently!

Hell, you just can't handle any reasoning other than your own, can you?

When its decent reasoning yes. You seem to be suggesting that SA aren't very good here rather than say we're better than you as Botha and Matfield were great 10 years ago. Anyway enough of your flip flapping, hoping to see a 3rd test as good as the 1st 2.

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Post by Biltong on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 9:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Biltong wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Biltong wrote:Chances for victory over SA will come more frequently now, enjoy

Doubtful. They're still better than England apparently!

Hell, you just can't handle any reasoning other than your own, can you?

When its decent reasoning yes. You seem to be suggesting that SA aren't very good here rather than say we're better than you as Botha and Matfield were great 10 years ago. Anyway enough of your flip flapping, hoping to see a 3rd test as good as the 1st 2.

Flip flagging.

Yeah right, I wonder.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 9:38 pm

You wonder what?

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Post by yappysnap on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 10:03 pm

boxing

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Post by Biltong on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 10:09 pm

yappysnap wrote:boxing

Meh , it will be a waste of time
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 10:14 pm

You really can't offer up an argument can you? Still you were really good in the last 10 years. Best of luck vs Ireland.

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Post by Biltong on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 10:21 pm

I gave you a full explanation, only it didn't sit well with you.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 10:26 pm

Yeah, you were good 10 years ago. Except you said here you expect a dip in form, and elsewhere you look forward to that dip. Not a good explanation and not consistant. Like I said good luck.

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Post by Biltong on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 10:56 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, you were good 10 years ago. Except you said here you expect a dip in form, and elsewhere you look forward to that dip. Not a good explanation and not consistant. Like I said good luck.

You are fixated on ten years ago, hence you dismiss any further reasoning.

And as I said, even a poor Springbok team is usually good enough.

Don't let my negativity about what is currently happening in the sporting arena in SA confuse you. Those are my personal feelings in regards to how the ANC is manipulating the one thing I still care about in my country.

Something you abviously know sweet f all about.

Get past the ten year fixation and open your mind to someone elses reasoning, instead of dismissing it out of hand because it doesn't suit your own motivation.
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Post by rapidsnowman on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 5:29 am

It will either be:

Ireland by 6 (they will dig out the result by tackling like wild men and Joe will have some crafty tactics up his sleeve. Everyone goes home a ligind - Joe is given the Freedom of Cork)

OR

South Africa by 20 (end of long season - legs gone, heads gone, hearts broken, they will succumb to vastly improved Boks. Everyone goes home dreaming of what might have been and the Jexit {Joe out campaigners} say I told you so)

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Post by eirebilly on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 6:21 am

After Schmidt's comments about Jackson's missed penalties late in the first half and early in the second half being factors that cost Ireland confidence (possibly the game) I am concerned he may start with Madigan due to his supposedly better kicking.

I hope not, I hope that the backline looks like this :

09 : Murray
10 : Jackson
12 : Olding
13 : Marshall
11 : Earls
14 : Trimble
15 : Payne

For me that is a solid but also attacking back line.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 7:54 am

Biltong wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, you were good 10 years ago. Except you said here you expect a dip in form, and elsewhere you look forward to that dip. Not a good explanation and not consistant. Like I said good luck.

You are fixated on ten years ago, hence you dismiss any further reasoning.

And as I said, even a poor Springbok team is usually good enough.

Don't let my negativity about what is currently happening in the sporting arena in SA confuse you. Those are my personal feelings in regards to how the ANC is manipulating the one thing I still care about in my country.

Something you abviously know sweet f all about.

Get past the ten year fixation and open your mind to someone elses reasoning, instead of dismissing it out of hand because it doesn't suit your own motivation.

Yeah you used to be good I get it. Doesn't have anything to do with this team, you said you don't rate SA; changed again. Come on Biltong this is a bad argument from you.

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Post by Biltong on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:06 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Biltong wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, you were good 10 years ago. Except you said here you expect a dip in form, and elsewhere you look forward to that dip. Not a good explanation and not consistant. Like I said good luck.

You are fixated on ten years ago, hence you dismiss any further reasoning.

And as I said, even a poor Springbok team is usually good enough.

Don't let my negativity about what is currently happening in the sporting arena in SA confuse you. Those are my personal feelings in regards to how the ANC is manipulating the one thing I still care about in my country.

Something you abviously know sweet f all about.

Get past the ten year fixation and open your mind to someone elses reasoning, instead of dismissing it out of hand because it doesn't suit your own motivation.

Yeah you used to be good I get it. Doesn't have anything to do with this team, you said you don't rate SA; changed again. Come on Biltong this is a bad argument from you.

No it is not, but lets turn the tables a little.

What is your argument, and what makes that suitable?

Come instead of blabbering on about my points please indulge me with some indesputable 7.5 logic
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Post by Biltong on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:10 am

And before I get completely peed off, what about my reasoning do you not agree with?

All you have done thus far is "poor argument", "ten years" "wa wa wa wa"

Facts please
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Post by thebandwagonsociety on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:24 am

Biltong in your opinion, if the quota system wasn't in place, how many of these SA players would still be in the squad, who would drop out and who is getting hard done by in the current system by not being selected?

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Post by Biltong on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:31 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Biltong in your opinion, if the quota system wasn't in place, how many of these SA players would still be in the squad, who would drop out and who is getting hard done by in the current system by not being selected?

I can't answer you and I am not going to even venture into that.

I refused to watch Super rugby this year, so I cannot tell you who is deserved or not
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:45 am

Biltong wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Biltong wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, you were good 10 years ago. Except you said here you expect a dip in form, and elsewhere you look forward to that dip. Not a good explanation and not consistant. Like I said good luck.

You are fixated on ten years ago, hence you dismiss any further reasoning.

And as I said, even a poor Springbok team is usually good enough.

Don't let my negativity about what is currently happening in the sporting arena in SA confuse you. Those are my personal feelings in regards to how the ANC is manipulating the one thing I still care about in my country.

Something you abviously know sweet f all about.

Get past the ten year fixation and open your mind to someone elses reasoning, instead of dismissing it out of hand because it doesn't suit your own motivation.

Yeah you used to be good I get it. Doesn't have anything to do with this team, you said you don't rate SA; changed again. Come on Biltong this is a bad argument from you.

No it is not, but lets turn the tables a little.

What is your argument, and what makes that suitable?

Come instead of blabbering on about my points please indulge me with some indesputable 7.5 logic

Like I said first up, the teams after NZ are grouped quite closely together. I'd start off by looking at the teams and seeing what they offer. I wouldn't be taking into consideration the last ten games. Teams are completely different. You're now saying that SA are on the way down and there's plenty of chance to beat them. You acknowledge the flaw in your own argument.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:47 am

Biltong wrote:And before I get completely peed off, what about my reasoning do you not agree with?

All you have done thus far is "poor argument", "ten years" "wa wa wa wa"

Facts please

No need to be like. You don't like being challenged for your poor argument, grow up act your age.

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Post by Biltong on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:54 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Biltong wrote:And before I get completely peed off, what about my reasoning do you not agree with?

All you have done thus far is "poor argument", "ten years" "wa wa wa wa"

Facts please

No need to be like. You don't like being challenged for your poor argument, grow up act your age.

My poor argument, you don't have a Frak clue what a poor argument is.

Initially I made one statement, suggesting England should at least beat us before claiming they are better than us.

You fault that logic.

I say they haven't beaten us for more than a decade.

You fault that logic.

I concede our rugby is in decline for numerous reasons.

You see that as acknowledging we aren't very good.

Yes we aren't at our best, and again I make the statement that even when not at our best we are usually good enough.

You fault that reasoning.

We haven't been very good since 2010, and yet, England have not beaten us since then.

So if you cannot accept that, then you are the one that should wake the Frak up.

I will take my leave now, you may report me, I truly don't give a Poopie.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:59 am

How well did Itoje play against Botha the last time they met for England vs Sa? Again really poor logic Biltong, run away from having to explain properly.

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Post by rodders on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:26 am

I agree with Bilts. SA rugby is obviously suffering due to internal and external politics.

They could probably field a stronger European based 23 than a home based one and that is pretty sad.

If Ireland was in this position, and we could well be headed that way we'd be pretty frustrated too.

That said to win on Saturday would be a massive achievement - on paper this is still a really strong boks side but I do agree they may noy be so invincible in future on home soil.

On Ireland, I think we'll see a side similar to the following:-

15 O'Hallaran
14 Earls
13 Payne
12 Marshal
11 Healy
10 Jackson
9 Murray
8 Heaslip
6 Stander
7 Murphy
5 Dillane
4 Toner
3 Ross
2 Best
1 McGrath

Furlong, Cronin, Bealham, Henderson, Ruddock, Reddan, Madigan, Olding
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Post by Notch on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:39 am

Uh-oh

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/international-rugby/jared-payne-a-doubt-for-winnertakesall-test-against-the-springboks-34822160.html
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Post by rodders on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:52 am

Interesting - might we see Earls at 13 outside Marshall, with Trimbs and Healy on the wings, or will he go with the Ulster duo in midfield?

Certainly the indication is O'Hallaran will start at the back.
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Post by carpet baboon on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:58 am

I would go with earls on the wing with the two Ulster men in the centre.
If earls is in the centre you end up with a back 3 of Healy gilroy and ohallaran which I kinda like. A lot of pace

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Post by carpet baboon on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:59 am

Trimble needs a rest. That's the only reason I wouldn't start him

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Post by rodders on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:17 am

carpet baboon wrote:Trimble needs a rest. That's the only reason I wouldn't start him

Agree Trimble needs a rest but Gilroy, Healy and O'Hallaran is too inexperienced imo - plus Gilroy struggled defensively last week, a number of times he was caught narrow and several tries occurred down his wing.

At least one of Earls or Trimbs needs to be on the wing I think.
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Post by Mr Fishpaste on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:20 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Biltong in your opinion, if the quota system wasn't in place, how many of these SA players would still be in the squad, who would drop out and who is getting hard done by in the current system by not being selected?

It's complicated. It's not as if there are any out-and-out quota players who are useless and only there to make up the numbers (of black players, that is). However, here is a scenario currently playing out: Mvovo was clearly found out last week, and Combrink would seem the obvious choice as a replacement. However, Trevor Nyakane is now injured, which means if you replace Mvovo and Nyakane, you've got two fewer black players. That means that selections for other positions are affected. So, now AC must think about who he replaces Vermeulen with: must he now go with Notshe instead of Kriel and does he bring in Mohoje onto the bench instead of Franco Mostert. None of these black players are bad, but one never knows whether they are being selected because AC feels they are the best for the position and the team, or because they are politically the best. And what's worse is that the players don't know either, which is a crucial problem in rugby where player confidence is so important.

Breyton Paulse (a bok wing from the 90s, who was a coloured player during a previous phase of quotas) has related that he found it very difficult being a 'black' player during a 'quota phase'. He said he struggled with confidence because he never knew whether he actually had the backing of coach and the team or whether he was only there because of his skin colour. Furthermore, he related that it sewed dischord amongst the rest of the team, because white players who didn't make the cut never knew whether it was because they were not good enough (and therefore had to improve) or because of the quota...So in summary it's not as if the Quota means awful players are being selected, but it is more the intagible effects on confidence, team cohesion and unity etc. that is problematic...

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Post by rodders on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:25 am

That sounds tough alright but under IRFU directives Joe Schmidt is only allowed to start 3 Ulster players in home internatonals and the 6N but allowed up to 5 in the summer tours.
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Post by Mr Fishpaste on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:36 am

rodders wrote:That sounds tough alright but under IRFU directives Joe Schmidt is only allowed to start 3 Ulster players in home internatonals and the 6N but allowed up to 5 in the summer tours.

Well, I learn a new thing every day! Pray tell, why is this?

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Post by rodders on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:42 am

Mr Fishpaste wrote:
rodders wrote:That sounds tough alright but under IRFU directives Joe Schmidt is only allowed to start 3 Ulster players in home internatonals and the 6N but allowed up to 5 in the summer tours.

Well, I learn a new thing every day!  Pray tell, why is this?

Unwritten rule that many will deny exists but the IRFU know that many Leinster and Munster fans, who make up the bulk of the supporters won't pay to watch a load of nordies, especially as Ulster get less coverage in the South - therefore Joe has to factor in the dynamic of the side with regards the provincial make up to ensure balance - Leinster, Munster Ulster in that order.

They are a bit more relaxed about the summer tours and games against tier 2 nations so you tend to see more Ulster players in the side.
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Post by Golden on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:48 am

rodders wrote:
Mr Fishpaste wrote:
rodders wrote:That sounds tough alright but under IRFU directives Joe Schmidt is only allowed to start 3 Ulster players in home internatonals and the 6N but allowed up to 5 in the summer tours.

Well, I learn a new thing every day!  Pray tell, why is this?

Unwritten rule that many will deny exists but the IRFU know that many Leinster and Munster fans, who make up the bulk of the supporters won't pay to watch a load of nordies, especially as Ulster get less coverage in the South - therefore Joe has to factor in the dynamic of the side with regards the provincial make up to ensure balance - Leinster, Munster Ulster in that order.

They are a bit more relaxed about the summer tours and games against tier 2 nations so you tend to see more Ulster players in the side.

The last test would tend to disprove that Rodders.  7 starters from Ulster.....

The exception that proves the rule maybe?  Very Happy  Although the first test there was 6 starters from Ulster.

Affirmative action if ever ive seen it.

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Post by rapidsnowman on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:52 am

Don't cover it up rodders.

It's to do with IQ.
It is well known too many Ulster players would increase the average IQ of the team to an extent where they may question the coach.

Payne only gets in on a technicality as he is really a Kiwi. He didn't come through our education system.

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Post by rodders on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:53 am

Forgot to add that the rule only applies to natives Wink
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Post by SecretFly on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:04 am

Sin E in White.

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Post by rodders on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:06 am

SecretFly wrote:Sin E in White.

Maybe Sin E wears white? angel
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Post by SecretFly on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:08 am

rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Sin E in White.

Maybe Sin E wears white? angel  

He has to when living in Dublin. Wearing Red might get a guy stoned.

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Post by Pete330v2 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:12 am

SecretFly wrote:
rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Sin E in White.

Maybe Sin E wears white? angel  

He has to when living in Dublin. Wearing Red might get a guy stoned.

If you wear red in Dubs they make you take drugs?

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Post by Sin é on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:14 am

rodders wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Trimble needs a rest. That's the only reason I wouldn't start him

Agree Trimble needs a rest but Gilroy, Healy and O'Hallaran is too inexperienced imo - plus Gilroy struggled defensively last week, a number of times he was caught narrow and several tries occurred down his wing.

At least one of Earls or Trimbs needs to be on the wing I think.  

Wow. Rodders wants Earlsy to start on the wing as he think he is a better defender than Gilroy. Yahoo
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Post by rodders on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:15 am

Pete330v2 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Sin E in White.

Maybe Sin E wears white? angel  

He has to when living in Dublin. Wearing Red might get a guy stoned.

If you wear red in Dubs they make you take drugs?

Only in O'Connell Street.
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Post by rodders on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:18 am

Sin é wrote:
rodders wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Trimble needs a rest. That's the only reason I wouldn't start him

Agree Trimble needs a rest but Gilroy, Healy and O'Hallaran is too inexperienced imo - plus Gilroy struggled defensively last week, a number of times he was caught narrow and several tries occurred down his wing.

At least one of Earls or Trimbs needs to be on the wing I think.  

Wow. Rodders wants Earlsy to start on the wing as he think he is a better defender than Gilroy. Yahoo

Well actually it's to ensure the Munster match day quota is reached so Joe doesn't pick Kilcoyne again.
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Post by Sin é on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:18 am

rodders wrote:That sounds tough alright but under IRFU directives Joe Schmidt is only allowed to start 3 Ulster players in home internatonals and the 6N but allowed up to 5 in the summer tours.

How did Rory sneak in as captain?
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Post by SecretFly on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:20 am

Sin é wrote:
rodders wrote:That sounds tough alright but under IRFU directives Joe Schmidt is only allowed to start 3 Ulster players in home internatonals and the 6N but allowed up to 5 in the summer tours.

How did Rory sneak in as captain?

When the Munster and Leinster boys were too busy crying for POC. Hard to see straight with tears in your eyes.

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Post by rodders on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:25 am

Sin é wrote:
rodders wrote:That sounds tough alright but under IRFU directives Joe Schmidt is only allowed to start 3 Ulster players in home internatonals and the 6N but allowed up to 5 in the summer tours.

How did Rory sneak in as captain?

Because Heaslip was wearing his headphones when Joe asked him if he wanted the gig.
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Post by SecretFly on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 11:26 am

Congrats to the Nordies here BTW on getting through last night in that competition that can't be directly named in hallowed Rugby Threads.

I wonder will they allow us to adopt them as our own if the other green boys fall off their wall tonight?

Though gotta admit it, my heart is always with Italeeeee - which is damned awkward given tonight's opponents....

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