The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

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Post by Guest on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 3:37 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I may have missed it on this thread but what are peoples thoughts on TTIP? Personally I think TTIP would be a a disaster for the EU, but can we fight it off?

Broadly negative but largely irrelevant as the UK would sign up to it in a flash with or without the EU.

Of course it's negative. It's a warning against TTIP and from a Nobel Prize winning economist. Strange that some here complain about the a lack of attention to 'financial experts' yet seem to brush aside the warnings of one on the worlds leading economists.

You say the UK will accept it in a flash, even if Brexit win. Why? I know Cameron will be quick to sell the UK to the highest bidder, but there are plenty of voices against TTIP, including the leader of the opposition. It would also be very doubtful that Cameron will be in power if Brexit do win.

I haven't got around to reading all the comments in reply to the TTIP article, very busy, but will once I get a break.


Last edited by Munchkin on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 3:39 pm

Posted my vote last week and I was glad to get it out of the way.

If I were a betting man, I'd probably stick 50p on a 58.34% to 41.66% in favour of remain.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 3:39 pm

Voting in the evening. Have to leave home at 6.50am tomorrow as have a 100km cycle race in the Surrey hills to struggle round......

Would like to think I'll be able to make it home for the evening sometime still!!

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 3:41 pm

Just to add...

I think it's very sad that 70% of the votes cast will probably be based on a dislike of the people representing each side, rather than the actual social, economical and legislative reasons.

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Post by Alex_Germany on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 3:46 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I may have missed it on this thread but what are peoples thoughts on TTIP? Personally I think TTIP would be a a disaster for the EU, but can we fight it off?

Broadly negative but largely irrelevant as the UK would sign up to it in a flash with or without the EU.

You've seen the IMF estimate. IIRC,
- a 1.5% hit to annual GDP if the UK can re-join the single market and reach trade deals with other major economies.
- down to a 5% hit to annual GDP if they can't

That includes the USA. The UK will have to conclude a trade deal with the USA. For the USA, it'll be "nice to have".

Where will that leave the UK's negotiating power? Where would that leave it's ability to get a good deal? The UK will have to sign what ever agreement the USA tells them to sign.


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Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 3:49 pm

Munchkin wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I may have missed it on this thread but what are peoples thoughts on TTIP? Personally I think TTIP would be a a disaster for the EU, but can we fight it off?

Broadly negative but largely irrelevant as the UK would sign up to it in a flash with or without the EU.

Of course it's negative. It's a warning against TTIP and from a Nobel Prize winning economist. Strange that some here complain about the a lack of attention to 'financial experts' yet seem to brush aside the warnings of one on the worlds leading economists.

You say the UK will accept it in a flash, even if Brexit win. Why? I know Cameron will be quick to sell the UK to the highest bidder, but there are plenty of voices against TTIP, including the leader of the opposition. It would also be very doubtful that Cameron will be in power if Brexit do win.

I haven't got around to reading all the comments in reply to the TTIP article, very busy, but will once I get a break.

You've answered your own question. The opposition to TTIP comes from the Corbyn Labour Party, which has as much chance as a used piece of toilet paper at forming the next government.

The Conservatives under Cameron are in favour. Boris Johnson is in favour. Gove is in favour. Osborne is in favour. May is in favour. Anyone think the next PM won't come from that group?

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 4:03 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I may have missed it on this thread but what are peoples thoughts on TTIP? Personally I think TTIP would be a a disaster for the EU, but can we fight it off?

Broadly negative but largely irrelevant as the UK would sign up to it in a flash with or without the EU.

Of course it's negative. It's a warning against TTIP and from a Nobel Prize winning economist. Strange that some here complain about the a lack of attention to 'financial experts' yet seem to brush aside the warnings of one on the worlds leading economists.

You say the UK will accept it in a flash, even if Brexit win. Why? I know Cameron will be quick to sell the UK to the highest bidder, but there are plenty of voices against TTIP, including the leader of the opposition. It would also be very doubtful that Cameron will be in power if Brexit do win.

I haven't got around to reading all the comments in reply to the TTIP article, very busy, but will once I get a break.

You've answered your own question. The opposition to TTIP comes from the Corbyn Labour Party, which has as much chance as a used piece of toilet paper at forming the next government.

The Conservatives under Cameron are in favour. Boris Johnson is in favour. Gove is in favour. Osborne is in favour. May is in favour. Anyone think the next PM won't come from that group?

Am sticking an outside bet on Ruthy D.....

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 4:04 pm

I'm sure she'd to a great job, but as she isn't an MP she can't become PM....

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 4:10 pm

https://twitter.com/Jamin2g/status/745382053609349124

Well sorted, Mr. Gove.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 4:11 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm sure she'd to a great job, but as she isn't an MP she can't become PM....

That rules out Lord Nigel of England, then.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 4:12 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm sure she'd to a great job, but as she isn't an MP she can't become PM....

Can she not swap somehow?

Quit her seat to stand as an MP in a safe Tory seat somewhere and take it from there....?

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 4:13 pm

Can't access Twitter. What's Gove saying now? Hopefully he's left the topic of the Nazi Party and the anti-Semitic treatment of Albert Einstein!

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 4:16 pm

Duty281 wrote:https://twitter.com/Jamin2g/status/745382053609349124

Well sorted, Mr. Gove.

Was this before or after he played his Godwin card??

Muppet.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 4:21 pm

https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/745625098980233216?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

What in God's name is this monstrosity?

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 4:33 pm

Duty281 wrote:https://twitter.com/timfarron/status/745625098980233216?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

What in God's name is this monstrosity?

Is that the John Barnes tribute? Yep, it is truly awful.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 4:33 pm

Opinium - the most accurate pollster for the 2015 General Election - have released their final poll results before the referendum with a bumper 3,000 polled:

Remain - 44%
Leave - 45%

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 4:42 pm

Duty281 wrote:Opinium - the most accurate pollster for the 2015 General Election - have released their final poll results before the referendum with a bumper 3,000 polled:

Remain - 44%
Leave - 45%

Saw that - FT Poll or Polls saying the same.

So, ahead in the polls, heavily backed by the UK press and way ahead in terms of fundraising, the "underdogs" look like the favourites going into election day.

Knife edge doesn't do it justice.

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Post by Guest on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 4:42 pm

Whether you are in the remain, leave or don't know camp ... is everybody satisfied that the British public has been provided with all the relevant information needed to make an informed decision?

Who is responsible for providing this neutral information to the British public to help the British people reach an informed decision?
a) The British Government
b) British politicians
c) The media
d) The British Broadcasting Corporation
e) The EU
f) Something else?

My own view is that David Cameron should be stripped naked and birched for setting up the referendum and then not providing the relevant, neutral information for the British people in order for them to make an informed decision.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 4:53 pm

Nore Staat wrote:Whether you are in the remain, leave or don't know camp ... is everybody satisfied that the British public has been provided with all the relevant information needed to make an informed decision?

Who is responsible for providing this neutral information to the British public to help the British people reach an informed decision?
a) The British Government
b) British politicians
c) The media
d) The British Broadcasting Corporation
e) The EU
f) Something else?

My own view is that David Cameron should be stripped naked and birched for setting up the referendum and then not providing the relevant, neutral information for the British people in order for them to make an informed decision.

It's a fair point. The Government, led by Cameron, is not neutral on the subject and have made that very clear from the get go. Quite right as well, why should they be neutral on such an important subject.

The BBC is supposed to report in a balanced manner and not take sides, but ultimately it is reporting news (i.e. by reporting what is being said by each of the sides in a balanced manner), it isn't a research agency responsible for producing neutral information to assist voters.

Very hard to come up with a truly neutral organisation on this referendum, everyone has something to lose/gain from the outcome.

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Post by Guest on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 4:57 pm

I just hope all those England football fans over in France remembered to vote before they left. I'm sure they did....

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 5:07 pm

DAVE667 wrote:I just hope all those England football fans over in France remembered to vote before they left. I'm sure they did....

Thankfully they look like the 'Leave' types.....

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Post by Guest on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 5:26 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:I just hope all those England football fans over in France remembered to vote before they left. I'm sure they did....

Thankfully they look like the 'Leave' types.....
You can't judge by appearances Toppy, if that was the case you'd spend more time on Jeremy Kyle than you do on here

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 5:41 pm

Was always a Jez Springer fan myself......

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Post by Alex_Germany on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 5:54 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:I just hope all those England football fans over in France remembered to vote before they left. I'm sure they did....

Thankfully they look like the 'Leave' types.....

I thought they wanted England to stay in Europe?

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 6:42 pm

TNS have released their final poll. Using the old methodology - and only including likely voters - Leave is ahead by 49-42. However, using the new methodology - and including all voters - the result is...

EU referendum poll:
Remain: 41% (+1)
Leave: 43% (-4)
(via TNS, online / 16 - 22 Jun)


Should be some more polls tonight - YouGov, Comres and Ipsos Mori.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 6:42 pm

Alex_Germany wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:I just hope all those England football fans over in France remembered to vote before they left. I'm sure they did....

Thankfully they look like the 'Leave' types.....

I thought they wanted England to stay in Europe?

They're hoping if they vote Leave then everyone else will leave Europe and we'll win the Euros by default.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 6:43 pm

Someone needs to teach these pollsters how to add up to 100. Terrible maths on show all round Wink

Just coming by to strike fear into posters hearts

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 6:46 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Someone needs to teach these pollsters how to add up to 100. Terrible maths on show all round Wink

Just coming by to strike fear into posters hearts

The number of 'Don't Knows' indicates that Remain should still triumph quite clearly.

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Post by Coxy001 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:00 pm

And now the final sleep before the biggest vote of a generation. And thank god it's almost over.

Vote leave and I'm quite liking the idea of living in Adelaide by the beach. Vote remain and the economy gets its c0ck out and spluffs everywhere and we get a huge boost in spend that has been massively suppressed due to idiots putting the polls closer than they are.

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Post by temporary21 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 8:24 pm

My suggetion mate. Scrap that plan and just go to Adelaide anyway. Its gorgeous...

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Post by Yadsendew on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 9:11 pm

Can't wait for tomorrow, I was going to cut my toe nails but I sense that there may something else on? I'm watching some sort of debate on the telly at the moment that may have something to do with it and there's lots of shouting going on. There's loads of posh words such as 'rhetoric' 'vitriol', 'paranoid' and patronising, all very impressive considering they're mostly talking to one another like infants (sorry that's not fair on infants). The only common sense comments / questions seem to be coming from those that want real answers with clear logical explanation. Haven't heard any clear answers from either side yet.

Anyways, Eeny, meeny, miny, mo  Headscratch

Watching the football now - much more interesting; come on Ireland.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:09 pm

EU referendum poll:
Remain: 48% (+2)
Leave: 42% (-3)
(via ComRes, phone / 17 - 22 Jun)


EU referendum poll:
Remain: 51% (+2)
Leave: 49% (-2)
(via YouGov, online / 20 - 22 Jun)
Excludes DKs.


So we have Comres/YouGov/Survation/ORB all finishing with REMAIN ahead.

While Opinium/TNS/ICM/BMG all finish with LEAVE ahead.

Ipsos Mori's last poll had LEAVE ahead, but they will be releasing a final one tomorrow morning.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:35 pm

DAVE667 wrote:I just hope all those England football fans over in France remembered to vote before they left. I'm sure they did....

Everyone thought they'd be back by now.

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Post by Alex_Germany on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:50 pm

Some one was saying that some "investors" have commissioned private exit polls, to know how the vote is going during the day. There is a lot of money to be made if you know the result in advance.

As this could swing the market, we might know tomorrow afternoon. If the pound is falling, then it's Leave. If the pound is rising, it's Remain.

(I still can't believe so many people want to vote for a pay cut and more austerity)

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Post by Ent on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:52 pm

Alex_Germany wrote:Some one was saying that some "investors" have commissioned private exit polls, to know how the vote is going during the day. There is a lot of money to be made if you know the result in advance.

As this could swing the market, we might know tomorrow afternoon. If the pound is falling, then it's Leave. If the pound is rising, it's Remain.

(I still can't believe so many people want to vote for a pay cut and more austerity)

But but but 350 million, the immigrants take our jobs and have ruined the nhs. Etc etc etc

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Post by Alex_Germany on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 10:56 pm

And don't forget Turkey is moving to England.

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Post by Coxy001 on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 7:24 am

Pi$$ing down here which bodes well for the remain vote as the leave voters can't afford umbrellas and thus won't venture out.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 7:30 am

Laugh Grim humour is the order of the day.

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Post by Derbymanc on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 7:41 am

Fingers crossed we get out today, think the whole think has been farcical by both sides to be honest and wouldn't trust any answer either side gave so going with my gut. Which is still the EU has too much power and has too much say over what goes on in other countries for my liking (not just ours).

Plus i dunno if it's just me but Germany seems to be doing a lot of talking for everyone lately whereas i'd prefer statements from other members too.

However it goes lets just hope there's no whiff of conspiracy as if it's a close one (which it looks like it may be) then i can see either side moaning like hell.

On a side note, this is the only place i know where remain has the more votes :-)

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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 7:46 am

Derbymanc wrote:Fingers crossed we get out today, think the whole think has been farcical by both sides to be honest and wouldn't trust any answer either side gave so going with my gut. Which is still the EU has too much power and has too much say over what goes on in other countries for my liking (not just ours).

Plus i dunno if it's just me but Germany seems to be doing a lot of talking for everyone lately whereas i'd prefer statements from other members too.

However it goes lets just hope there's no whiff of conspiracy as if it's a close one (which it looks like it may be) then i can see either side moaning like hell.

On a side note, this is the only place i know where remain has the more votes :-)

Can you elaborate on this please


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Post by Ent on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 8:09 am

They tell us what to do...

The 10 best Euro myths – from custard creams to condoms | Politics | The Guardian - www.theguardian.com
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/23/10-best-euro-myths-from-custard-creams-to-condoms?campaign_id=A100&campaign_type=Email

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Post by Hood83 on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 8:21 am

I'm genuinely bricking it. If the baby-boomers take us out it's really their final f**k you to my generation. A terrible, idiotic decision and I'm afraid I can't be kind or gracious anymore with those making it.

REMAIN. Fingers crossed.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 8:21 am

Ent wrote:They tell us what to do...

The 10 best Euro myths – from custard creams to condoms | Politics | The Guardian - www.theguardian.com
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/23/10-best-euro-myths-from-custard-creams-to-condoms?campaign_id=A100&campaign_type=Email

That would be funny except people will be voting to leave based on believing that stuff.

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The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) Empty Re: The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 8:28 am


marketingexpert 12m ago

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I don't know why people laugh - the truth is just as absurd:

Being forced to put " non brewed condiment" on your chips because the French would not let us call it " vinegar" is very real. And all part of why EU is an expensive white elephant,

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CaptainSwing666 marketingexpert 10m ago

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Evidence please?

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bigbadblert marketingexpert 7m ago

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just checked- it says 'malt vinegar' on the bottle in my cupboard. you must be using the special Mr Winklechops version?

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The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) Empty Re: The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

Post by Guest on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 9:24 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:
Ent wrote:They tell us what to do...

The 10 best Euro myths – from custard creams to condoms | Politics | The Guardian - www.theguardian.com
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/23/10-best-euro-myths-from-custard-creams-to-condoms?campaign_id=A100&campaign_type=Email

That would be funny except people will be voting to leave based on believing that stuff.
Who'd do something as stupid as that? (starts frantically Googling" Can I change my vote once it's been cast?")

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The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) Empty Re: The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

Post by Alex_Germany on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 9:28 am

Derbymanc wrote:Fingers crossed we get out today, think the whole think has been farcical by both sides to be honest and wouldn't trust any answer either side gave so going with my gut. Which is still the EU has too much power and has too much say over what goes on in other countries for my liking (not just ours).

Plus i dunno if it's just me but Germany seems to be doing a lot of talking for everyone lately whereas i'd prefer statements from other members too.

However it goes lets just hope there's no whiff of conspiracy as if it's a close one (which it looks like it may be) then i can see either side moaning like hell.

On a side note, this is the only place i know where remain has the more votes :-)

If you're undecided, vote with your wallet. I know it's fashionable to dismiss "expert opinion" - but if you go to a Doctor you should take their advice. If you want to vote today, you should take the advice of the Economists.

Yes - Germany is doing a lot of talking. If France had a competent leader and a competent economic policy, they'd also be doing a lot of talking. All of Europe would like Britain in, and doing a lot more talking. But the talking in Germany (and elsewhere) can be summed up as "No further integration, unless there's a practical and urgent".

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Post by Hero on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 9:51 am

France haven't been quiet on it.

The French economy minister, Emmanuel Macron, has warned that if the UK leaves the EU, it risks isolating itself as a tiny trading post on the edge of Europe, akin to the Channel island Guernsey.

Mr Macron said Britain would have a weaker hand in its negotiations with China over issues such as 'dumping' of cheap steel.

'I think UK is not about becoming Jersey or Guernsey. Today, you are strong because you are part of the EU,' he said.

'When you discuss your steel industry with China you are credible because you are part of the EU, not because you are just UK. You will be completely killed otherwise.

'You will never be in the situation to negotiate face to face with the Chinese because your domestic market is not relevant for the Chinese in comparison with their domestic market. EU is the first global domestic market.'


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President Francois Hollande warned on Wednesday that if Britons voted to leave the European Union it would be an irreversible decision that could seriously jeopardize Britain's prized access to the bloc's single market.

Amid a flurry of contacts between EU capitals to prepare for the consequences of Thursday's referendum, Hollande said he would visit Berlin next week to prepare joint initiatives to relaunch Europe, whatever the outcome of the British vote.

"If the choice is to leave the EU ... that would be irreversible," Hollande said. "No is no, there is no middle ground and we'll have to draw all the consequences."

The economic consequences of the vote are key to the outcome of the referendum, with access to the bloc's single market for trade in goods and services a major issue.

Hollande, in his starkest warning to date on the consequences of Brexit, said: "There would be a very serious risk of Britain losing its access to the single market and everything that goes with the European economic area. Everyone needs to be well aware of this."

While Norway is part of the single market via a trade deal it has with the EU, fellow non-EU member Switzerland only has access to parts of the single market.

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In London, French Finance Minister Sapin said Britain could not have more influence in Europe if it left: “It is a fantasy to imagine things would carry on as they are,” he said. “I can’t see how links can be deeper, more fruitful or more trusting if Britain leaves . . . I don’t see how Britain could be more influential if Britain is on the outside. From that point of view I don’t see a positive outcome.”

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The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) Empty Re: The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

Post by Ent on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 10:00 am

ShahenshahG wrote:
marketingexpert 12m ago

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1
I don't know why people laugh - the truth is just as absurd:

Being forced to put " non brewed condiment" on your chips because the French would not let us call it " vinegar" is very real. And all part of why EU is an expensive white elephant,

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CaptainSwing666  marketingexpert 10m ago

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Evidence please?

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bigbadblert  marketingexpert 7m ago

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just checked- it says 'malt vinegar' on the bottle in my cupboard. you must be using the special Mr Winklechops version?

People are so stupid, makes you question one man one vote.

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Post by Guest on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 10:12 am

Here is our Foreign Affairs Secretary and Security Policy Secretary, and Vice-President: Federica Mogherini.  

She started out as a communist, then after the party changed its name to social democrat she was elected as an MP in the Italian parliament, eventually becoming the Italian foreign secretary.  Since 2014 she was moved over into the European Commission and now represents us as EU Foreign Affairs Secretary and Security Policy Secretary.

In June 2015 of last year and as our Foreign Secretary she made the following statement:

"Islam holds a place in our Western societies. Islam belongs in Europe. It holds a place in Europe's history, in our culture, in our food and-what matters most-in Europe's present and future. Like it or not, this is the reality."

She helped finalise the Iran - Nuclear Deal and is a great supporter for Turkey joining the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federica_Mogherini

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The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) Empty Re: The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 23 Jun 2016, 10:20 am

Duty281 wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm sure she'd to a great job, but as she isn't an MP she can't become PM....

That rules out Lord Nigel of England, then.

I'm sure the Tories will be able to parachute him into a safe seat after this referendum....Whitney should be available....

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