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The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

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Post by Guest Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:37 pm

First topic message reminder :

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I may have missed it on this thread but what are peoples thoughts on TTIP? Personally I think TTIP would be a a disaster for the EU, but can we fight it off?

Broadly negative but largely irrelevant as the UK would sign up to it in a flash with or without the EU.

Of course it's negative. It's a warning against TTIP and from a Nobel Prize winning economist. Strange that some here complain about the a lack of attention to 'financial experts' yet seem to brush aside the warnings of one on the worlds leading economists.

You say the UK will accept it in a flash, even if Brexit win. Why? I know Cameron will be quick to sell the UK to the highest bidder, but there are plenty of voices against TTIP, including the leader of the opposition. It would also be very doubtful that Cameron will be in power if Brexit do win.

I haven't got around to reading all the comments in reply to the TTIP article, very busy, but will once I get a break.


Last edited by Munchkin on Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by pedro Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:39 am

whocares wrote:Well... Time to embrace market volatility and buy cheap stocks I guess.
just my thought. Excellent buying opportunity especially if you sit with euros (eg in Ireland) and buy British stocks.

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:41 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:First potential job losses announced. Gee, and I thought it was just scare-mongering.
http://www.efinancialnews.com/story/2016-06-24/jp-morgan-moves-brexit?mod=home-top

Happy days mikey? Tell that to the people losing their jobs - I'm sure it will cheer them up.

'may' and 'warned'.

FFS read it again.

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Post by BamBam Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:41 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
BamBam wrote:75% of 18-25s apparently wanted to remain, its lucky for them that there's so many over 65s who'll be dead in 10 years looking out for their best interests

In my lifetime, I doubt that I'll ever see one generation screw another as badly as the baby boomers have done to those born in the mid - late 90s 1980s and 1990s

Just one edit. As generations go, the Boomers have played a blinder.

I did actually mean mid 80s - late 90s!

Definitely played a blinder

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Post by pedro Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:41 am

LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Why was that the fault of the EU?

Come on. I know what you are doing here. Of course it's the fault of the EU. It's the old, you can have whatever you want, as long as we agree to it, line.

Ireland were fecked, and the EU loaned them money with massive interest rates, they are no better than loan sharks.
Eeeh, and you also want to leave because you don't want to bail out Greece and Spain???

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Post by ShahenshahG Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:41 am

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:First potential job losses announced. Gee, and I thought it was just scare-mongering.
http://www.efinancialnews.com/story/2016-06-24/jp-morgan-moves-brexit?mod=home-top

Happy days mikey? Tell that to the people losing their jobs - I'm sure it will cheer them up.

'may' and 'warned'.

FFS read it again.

Read what he wrote.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:44 am

Farage just been on TV saying the £350 million a week for the NHS claim was 'a mistake'.
You couldn't make this stuff up!

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Post by BamBam Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:45 am

Dan Hannan probably disappointing many of the out voters with the following

“Frankly, if people watching think that they have voted and there is now going to be zero immigration from the EU, they are going to be disappointed,” he told the BBC. “Of course there is still going to be immigration, there are still going to be people coming here to work, and you will look in vain for anything that the Leave campaign said at any point that ever suggested there would ever be any kind of border closure or drawing up of the drawbridge.”

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Post by dyrewolfe Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:45 am

The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 8 Keep-calm-cause-we-did-it

Yahoo


FROM NOW ON JUNE 24TH SHALL BE KNOWN AS INDEPENDENCE DAY!
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Post by pedro Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:46 am

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:First potential job losses announced. Gee, and I thought it was just scare-mongering.
http://www.efinancialnews.com/story/2016-06-24/jp-morgan-moves-brexit?mod=home-top

Happy days mikey? Tell that to the people losing their jobs - I'm sure it will cheer them up.

'may' and 'warned'.

FFS read it again.
Why should they not leave? No advantage from staying.

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:46 am

SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:SecretFly, if Ireland had a vote now like we have just had, in or out, what would you vote for ?

We did.  Referendums are new to you...I'm very familiar with them.  We did say NO to Europe - or at least one of the most invidious treaties that gave it oodles more power and say.  Unfortunately, when looking in hindsight, had other nations being as democratic and allowed their citizens to vote on that treaty too in a Referendum, then perhaps the recent UK referendum would never have happened.  We'd all have stalled the more ambitious notions of this EU.

But we did vote on Europe - I think the percentages for and against were around about the same as the UK one now...go check out what happened after that.

Yip - the Irish had a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and rejected it. The EU's response? Have another one until you get the right result.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:46 am

pedro wrote:Eeeh, and you also want to leave because you don't want to bail out Greece and Spain???

No, I do not want to live in a world where one country can be reckless and not care about the outcomes as other countries can bail them out.

For the record, that is just one small issue I have with being in the EU, I have a lot of other issues as well, most of them affect me personally as a small business owner.

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Post by rIck_dAgless Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:47 am

dyrewolfe wrote:The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 8 Keep-calm-cause-we-did-it

Yahoo


FROM NOW ON JUNE 24TH SHALL BE KNOWN AS INDEPENDENCE DAY!

Nah, it won't.

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Post by dyrewolfe Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:47 am

BamBam wrote:Dan Hannan probably disappointing many of the out voters with the following

“Frankly, if people watching think that they have voted and there is now going to be zero immigration from the EU, they are going to be disappointed,” he told the BBC. “Of course there is still going to be immigration, there are still going to be people coming here to work, and you will look in vain for anything that the Leave campaign said at any point that ever suggested there would ever be any kind of border closure or drawing up of the drawbridge.”


Not me.

Zero immigration is both stupid and unrealistic. We need SOME immigration...what I (and probably a lot of other Leave voters) want is some measure of control over who we take in.
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Post by Sin é Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:48 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Did Ireland have to take the money and agree to the terms?

I think they were between a rock and a hard place. They had no choice because they were buggered.
Why was that the fault of the EU?

German banks were deep in Ireland. Thats why Ireland were not allowed burn the bond holders.

Trade in 2015 between UK & Ireland:
Ireland imports from UK: €19.9 billion.
Ireland exports to UK: €14.7 billion.
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Post by pedro Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:48 am

dyrewolfe wrote:The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 8 Keep-calm-cause-we-did-it

Yahoo


FROM NOW ON JUNE 24TH SHALL BE KNOWN AS INDEPENDENCE DAY!
Yes, and the Empire will resurrect. Doh.

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Post by pedro Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:50 am

LordDowlais wrote:
pedro wrote:Eeeh, and you also want to leave because you don't want to bail out Greece and Spain???

No, I do not want to live in a world where one country can be reckless and not care about the outcomes as other countries can bail them out.

For the record, that is just one small issue I have with being in the EU, I have a lot of other issues as well, most of them affect me personally as a small business owner.
So you don't have a problem with the 150m Ireland has paid in interest?

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Post by ShahenshahG Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:51 am

Pedro Lorddothwails hates the EU because of the business rates that cripple his business Laugh

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Post by SecretFly Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:51 am

LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Why was that the fault of the EU?

Come on. I know what you are doing here. Of course it's the fault of the EU. It's the old, you can have whatever you want, as long as we agree to it, line.

Ireland were fecked, and the EU loaned them money with massive interest rates, they are no better than loan sharks.

I always use the Aldi/Lidl story to elucidate my opinion of the EU elite (MEPs, commissioners, officials AND their business friends and allies on the side, whispering them on and guiding them).
The thing about Aldi/Lidl is that when they turned up first in Ireland - most of the population laughed at them.  We were well served with lovely places where the mood of shopping was perhaps like mental therapy itself.  People loved shopping because it was an experience - of vision, smells, aromas, textures.  So everyone laughed when these 'Cattle market' style places appeared with their garish tiles and female briefs lying in the same tray as pliers, hatchets and hammers Wink  Oh how we laughed.
But I firmly believed they knew what was coming.  They were bedding down and preparing for the plan to unfold.  They knew the laughers would be crying and, to put it bluntly, committing suicide in a few short years after their arrival.  The sneers would be begging at their tills in time - and they knew it.

The EU? To hell with it.

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Post by BamBam Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:52 am

dyrewolfe wrote:
BamBam wrote:Dan Hannan probably disappointing many of the out voters with the following

“Frankly, if people watching think that they have voted and there is now going to be zero immigration from the EU, they are going to be disappointed,” he told the BBC. “Of course there is still going to be immigration, there are still going to be people coming here to work, and you will look in vain for anything that the Leave campaign said at any point that ever suggested there would ever be any kind of border closure or drawing up of the drawbridge.”


Not me.

Zero immigration is both stupid and unrealistic. We need SOME immigration...what I (and probably a lot of other Leave voters) want is some measure of control over who we take in.

Agreed

I did say many, not all!

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:00 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Why was that the fault of the EU?

Come on. I know what you are doing here. Of course it's the fault of the EU. It's the old, you can have whatever you want, as long as we agree to it, line.

Ireland were fecked, and the EU loaned them money with massive interest rates, they are no better than loan sharks.


This is what happened:

- The Irish attracted large financial services companies to Ireland with an attractive tax regime (drawing tax revenues from the UK in the process, such as BoAML), and in doing so skewed the balance of its economy heavily in favour of FS institutions.
- The financial crisis gripped the world, and Ireland's economy in particular, reliant on FS and low taxes, hit crisis point. The reckless lending and borrowing in Ireland was off the scale.
- Faced with going to the wall, the ruthless UK and nasty EU, which for years had suffered as a result of Ireland low taxes, bailed them out. Not entirely selflessly because, as we found out today, troubles in one EU member state can have a contagion effect. But still, Ireland would have hit the wall without the money.
- The bail-out was hugely successful, Ireland used the money to inject capital back into its economy and managed to pay back the most expensive loans early:

On 20 March 2015 the NTMA completed the third and final early repayment of Ireland’s IMF loan facility bringing cumulative repayments to approximately SDR15.7 billion. This represents a repayment of just over €18 billion, or 81% of Ireland’s original €22.5 billion IMF loan facility. These repayments discharge IMF principal repayment obligations that were originally to fall due from July 2015 to January 2021. Ireland has fully repaid the more expensive portion of the IMF facility.


It should be noted that Ireland still has a corporation tax of 12.5% (vs 20% for the UK) and has an economy on the mend (fastest growing economy in the EU). If you could have obtained sufficient bail-out funds from elsewhere at a cheaper price without any conditions attaching to it then you should have done so.

A simple thank you would suffice.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:01 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:Farage just been on TV saying the £350 million a week for the NHS claim was 'a mistake'.
You couldn't make this stuff up!

Wasn't it Boris that was saying how we should spend that money on the NHS, not Nigel? Nigel won't be PM...in fact, shouldn't UKIP dissolve now?


Last edited by mikey_dragon on Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by dyrewolfe Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:02 pm

pedro wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 8 Keep-calm-cause-we-did-it

Yahoo


FROM NOW ON JUNE 24TH SHALL BE KNOWN AS INDEPENDENCE DAY!
Yes, and the Empire will resurrect. Doh.


Nah, we're not allowed to do that sort of thing anymore. Wink
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Post by LordDowlais Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:11 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:Pedro Lorddothwails hates the EU because of the business rates that cripple his business Laugh


Laugh all you want. I have chased this through to the highest authority. I do not think you know much about it, but there is so much red tape wrapped around our rules, and guess who is wrapping us up in this red tape ? Brussels.

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:13 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:First potential job losses announced. Gee, and I thought it was just scare-mongering.
http://www.efinancialnews.com/story/2016-06-24/jp-morgan-moves-brexit?mod=home-top

Happy days mikey? Tell that to the people losing their jobs - I'm sure it will cheer them up.

'may' and 'warned'.

FFS read it again.

Read what he wrote.

I did.

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Post by BamBam Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:13 pm

Just posted this elsewhere, but I'll put it here too

I really feel for people in Northern Ireland

Overwhelmingly voted to remain, but now face the prospect of a border being put up within Ireland

Not sure of the politics in Ireland at the moment, but I have seen that Sinn Fein have called for a vote on Irish unity

Given the result in Scotland, I'd just like to thank David Cameron and cronies for pandering to the UKIP vote at the last election, and in all quite likelihood, facilitating the break up of the United Kingdom

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Post by Guest Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:15 pm

Saddest sight of all has to be Samantha Cameron as she's hit with the sobering realization that the f*cking party is over and she's going to have to get a job.

Cameron steps down as he says he's not the man to take the Country forward. Can I ask this, what if there was a fear of a war and Cameron was opposed to it but we went to war anyway, would he have stepped down or would he have done his f*cking duty and led the Country that elected him to lead?

When the going gets tough, the Prime Minister says, "Ooh, it's a bit difficult, I think I'll sit this one out!"

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Post by dyrewolfe Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:16 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Farage just been on TV saying the £350 million a week for the NHS claim was 'a mistake'.
You couldn't make this stuff up!

Wasn't it Boris that was saying how we should spend that money on the NHS, not Nigel? Nigel won't be PM...in fact, shouldn't UKIP dissolve now?


Very good point. UKIP is now redundant.

I suppose Farage can retire to a life of golf and after-dinner speaking, but what about all the other U-kippers?

Or, with Cameron stepping down, would he fancy a crack at getting into Downing Street? Don't think he'd stand much chance against Boris.

It'll be fascinating to see who emerges as potential candidates. Will they allow us to vote in the new PM or will they just do what Labour did when Tony stepped down and foist a new PM on us without giving us any say in the matter?
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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:16 pm

This is what I think will happen now.

There WILL be serious reform within the EU and I imagine that a proposal will be put forward that committee members will, in future, be elected in addition to some real improvements that will benefit each member state.

This proposal will be put forward to the UK electorate who will then be given (and subsequently accept) another referendum. The outcome will then be a comprehensive 'remain' victory and the EU will be run properly.

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Post by ShahenshahG Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:17 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Pedro Lorddothwails hates the EU because of the business rates that cripple his business Laugh


Laugh all you want. I have chased this through to the highest authority. I do not think you know much about it, but there is so much red tape wrapped around our rules, and guess who is wrapping us up in this red tape ? Brussels.

laughing laughing

https://www.gov.uk/introduction-to-business-rates/overview

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:19 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Farage just been on TV saying the £350 million a week for the NHS claim was 'a mistake'.
You couldn't make this stuff up!

Wasn't it Boris that was saying how we should spend that money on the NHS, not Nigel? Nigel won't be PM...in fact, shouldn't UKIP dissolve now?

Dissolve into the Tories I suspect.

Despite my disagreeing with almost everything that comes out of his mouth, you do have to recognise that Nigel Farage is the single most influential politician in British politics since Blair.

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Post by LordDowlais Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:22 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This proposal will be put forward to the UK electorate who will then be given (and subsequently accept) another referendum. The outcome will then be a comprehensive 'remain' victory and the EU will be run properly.

This 100%.


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Post by SecretFly Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:22 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This is what I think will happen now.

There WILL be serious reform within the EU and I imagine that a proposal will be put forward that committee members will, in future, be elected in addition to some real improvements that will benefit each member state.

This proposal will be put forward to the UK electorate who will then be given (and subsequently accept) another referendum. The outcome will then be a comprehensive 'remain' victory and the EU will be run properly.

I think you're right in saying this is more a beginning of change for Europe/EU than an end of the UKs' relationship with it.

But I think it'll need a lot more on the table than that to get the negotiations started.

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Post by SecretFly Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:24 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Farage just been on TV saying the £350 million a week for the NHS claim was 'a mistake'.
You couldn't make this stuff up!

Wasn't it Boris that was saying how we should spend that money on the NHS, not Nigel? Nigel won't be PM...in fact, shouldn't UKIP dissolve now?

Dissolve into the Tories I suspect.

Despite my disagreeing with almost everything that comes out of his mouth, you do have to recognise that Nigel Farage is the single most influential politician in British politics since Blair.

Since Churchill?

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:26 pm

Just lightening the mood. For Julius:

"Brexit' to be followed by Grexit. Departugal. Italeave. Fruckoff. Czechout. Oustria. Finish. Slovakout. Latervia. Byegium.

And Swedone. Thenmark. Extonia.

And Switzeralreadyout... oh wait!?!

And Poleave?

EU later everybody!"

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:29 pm

DAVE667 wrote:Saddest sight of all has to be Samantha Cameron as she's hit with the sobering realization that the f*cking party is over and she's going to have to get a job.

Cameron steps down as he says he's not the man to take the Country forward. Can I ask this, what if there was a fear of a war and Cameron was opposed to it but we went to war anyway, would he have stepped down or would he have done his f*cking duty and led the Country that elected him to lead?

When the going gets tough, the Prime Minister says, "Ooh, it's a bit difficult, I think I'll sit this one out!"


1. Believe me, SamCam doesn't need to get a job. They are loaded, or did the whole Panama thing pass you by?

2. See my earlier post. His position is untenable. He had to resign. Nothing to do with "not doing his duty".

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Post by GSC Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:29 pm

Oh look the SNP are threatening a referendum again.
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Post by GSC Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:32 pm

Leicester voted remain, do we get a referendum on independence too?
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Post by JuliusHMarx Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:33 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 8 Keep-calm-cause-we-did-it

Yahoo


FROM NOW ON JUNE 24TH SHALL BE KNOWN AS INDEPENDENCE DAY!

Don't we have to kill all the aliens (immigrants) first?

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Post by LordDowlais Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:33 pm

Lets take all the emotions out of this for a second. Nobody can predict the future. Who knows how this will pan out. But what we can talk about is the here and now. This result shows that the majority of the UK is fed up with how the EU are doing things, I refuse to accept that we are the only country who feels this way.

What this has done, is taken the EU down a peg, it shows that they should no be the be all and end all of life as we know it.

Do the EU need the UK ? I would wager that they do. I think if the EU needs to remain then they need the power of the UK to do so, along with the Germans and the French of course.

I think that something new will now develop. The EU needs to change, it is not working for every country, this will now send shock waves through Europe and people will now have to start listening to their populations, I will watch what unfolds over the next few months and years with interest. I am looking forward to change, it is coming whether the rest of Europe want it or not.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:34 pm

GSC wrote:Oh look the SNP are threatening a referendum again.

Of course they are. They told us they would push for it if the UK as a whole voted Brexit and Scotland as a country did not, and that is what has happened.

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Post by GSC Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:34 pm

France might be next to be honest.
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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:35 pm

GSC wrote:Leicester voted remain, do we get a referendum on independence too?

Leicester isn't a country, which is a rather obvious distinction.

Next.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:35 pm

GSC wrote:France might be next to be honest.

They might. Or they might not.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:36 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Farage just been on TV saying the £350 million a week for the NHS claim was 'a mistake'.
You couldn't make this stuff up!

Wasn't it Boris that was saying how we should spend that money on the NHS, not Nigel? Nigel won't be PM...in fact, shouldn't UKIP dissolve now?

Oh I see - So Nigel came out and said it was a mistake at the time did he? He argued against it during the campaign?

But yes, they should.

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Post by Sin é Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:41 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Why was that the fault of the EU?

Come on. I know what you are doing here. Of course it's the fault of the EU. It's the old, you can have whatever you want, as long as we agree to it, line.

Ireland were fecked, and the EU loaned them money with massive interest rates, they are no better than loan sharks.


This is what happened:

- The Irish attracted large financial services companies to Ireland with an attractive tax regime (drawing tax revenues from the UK in the process, such as BoAML), and in doing so skewed the balance of its economy heavily in favour of FS institutions.
- The financial crisis gripped the world, and Ireland's economy in particular, reliant on FS and low taxes, hit crisis point. The reckless lending and borrowing in Ireland was off the scale.
- Faced with going to the wall, the ruthless UK and nasty EU, which for years had suffered as a result of Ireland low taxes, bailed them out. Not entirely selflessly because, as we found out today, troubles in one EU member state can have a contagion effect. But still, Ireland would have hit the wall without the money.
- The bail-out was hugely successful, Ireland used the money to inject capital back into its economy and managed to pay back the most expensive loans early:

On 20 March 2015 the NTMA completed the third and final early repayment of Ireland’s IMF loan facility bringing cumulative repayments to approximately SDR15.7 billion. This represents a repayment of just over €18 billion, or 81% of Ireland’s original €22.5 billion IMF loan facility. These repayments discharge IMF principal repayment obligations that were originally to fall due from July 2015 to January 2021. Ireland has fully repaid the more expensive portion of the IMF facility.


It should be noted that Ireland still has a corporation tax of 12.5% (vs 20% for the UK) and has an economy on the mend (fastest growing economy in the EU). If you could have obtained sufficient bail-out funds from elsewhere at a cheaper price without any conditions attaching to it then you should have done so.

A simple thank you would suffice.

German banks had lent €135 billion to Irish banks alone.

Sorry, EU & UK were bailing themselves out, with Irish people paying for the lack of control by the ECB.
What do you think would have happened to all those British companies who export about €20 billion worth to Ireland every year?

Perhaps a thanks to Ireland for getting up off their asses and taking it on the chin to save everyone else might be in order!
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Post by SecretFly Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:43 pm

The World was stagnant for too long - going through the motions, corporate businessmen as political leaders - budgets were all they were concerned about.   And pressure was growing because the people of the world were talking about more fundamental things but those politicians haven't been listening; too smug in their ivory towers pretending it's all just about tax, markets, trade and budgets.  

We now have movement.  A slight release of pressure.  When the shock is over, the UK will pat itself on the back for being the first.  They won't be the last.  The 21st Century is 16 years old, the EU is not the model that's working.  
It was created to cool down a Europe weary from war but it isn't a Natural product - it's forced.  And more and more, the politicians are having to admit that truth.  There is a better model.  Let's find a new way to cooperate as neighbours in the same street, not as 27 or 28 people trying to live in the one bedsit and pretending we still like the smell of each others feet and want to watch the same program on the one telly.

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Post by dyrewolfe Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:43 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This is what I think will happen now.

There WILL be serious reform within the EU and I imagine that a proposal will be put forward that committee members will, in future, be elected in addition to some real improvements that will benefit each member state.

This proposal will be put forward to the UK electorate who will then be given (and subsequently accept) another referendum. The outcome will then be a comprehensive 'remain' victory and the EU will be run properly.


Thats a hell of a lot of assumptions. Sounds more like wishful thinking tbh.

You're assuming the other members will want to give the UK the option of staying in, rather than just getting on with the exit process. Some undoubtedly would like us to stay, but we could also be viewed as more trouble than we're worth.

You're also assuming (if this happens) that the government will want to go through the process of another referendum, so soon after this one. What would the new deal offer us and could they sell it to the public?

Given we've just voted to leave, would public opinion really change that much in such a short space of time? How likely is it voters would be swayed before we've even had a chance to sample whatever benefits or disadvantages Brexit offers? Personally I feel it would take some really major changes and concessions to sway public opinion. How far are they willing to reform and even then, will it persuade enough Euro-sceptics to change their minds?

The last few words also made me chuckle. There is an old saying: "You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please everyone all the time". People will have different opinions on what constitutes a "properly run" EU.


Last edited by dyrewolfe on Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by dyrewolfe Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:47 pm

SecretFly wrote:The World was stagnant for too long - going through the motions, corporate businessmen as political leaders - budgets were all they were concerned about.   And pressure was growing because the people of the world were talking about more fundamental things but those politicians haven't been listening; too smug in their ivory towers pretending it's all just about tax, markets, trade and budgets.  

We now have movement.  A slight release of pressure.  When the shock is over, the UK will pat itself on the back for being the first.  They won't be the last.  The 21st Century is 16 years old, the EU is not the model that's working.  
It was created to cool down a Europe weary from war but it isn't a Natural product - it's forced.  And more and more, the politicians are having to admit that truth.  There is a better model.  Let's find a new way to cooperate as neighbours in the same street, not as 27 or 28 people trying to live in the one bedsit and pretending we still like the smell of each others feet and want to watch the same program on the one telly.

laughing

You just made me choke on my coffee - thanks! Other than that, agree with you 100%.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:47 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Farage just been on TV saying the £350 million a week for the NHS claim was 'a mistake'.
You couldn't make this stuff up!

Wasn't it Boris that was saying how we should spend that money on the NHS, not Nigel? Nigel won't be PM...in fact, shouldn't UKIP dissolve now?

Oh I see - So Nigel came out and said it was a mistake at the time did he? He argued against it during the campaign?

But yes, they should.

It's just that I didn't hear Nigel say we'll spend that £350M on the NHS, it was Boris. Maybe I just tune into the news when Nige happens to be getting less air time, which I'm sure is just a fortunate coincidence. He's a bell, but he's been an honest one, up to now??? Smile

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Post by Sin é Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Lets take all the emotions out of this for a second. Nobody can predict the future. Who knows how this will pan out. But what we can talk about is the here and now. This result shows that the majority of the UK is fed up with how the EU are doing things, I refuse to accept that we are the only country who feels this way.

What this has done, is taken the EU down a peg, it shows that they should no be the be all and end all of life as we know it.

Do the EU need the UK ? I would wager that  they do. I think if the EU needs to remain then they need the power of the UK to do so, along with the Germans and the French of course.

I think that something new will now develop. The EU needs to change, it is not working for every country, this will now send shock waves through Europe and people will now have to start listening to their populations, I will watch what unfolds over the next few months and years with interest. I am looking forward to change, it is coming whether the rest of Europe want it or not.

Can you explain to me why Germany with similar demographics to England/Wales has prospered in the EU and England/Wales has not?
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