The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

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Post by Guest on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 3:37 pm

First topic message reminder :

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I may have missed it on this thread but what are peoples thoughts on TTIP? Personally I think TTIP would be a a disaster for the EU, but can we fight it off?

Broadly negative but largely irrelevant as the UK would sign up to it in a flash with or without the EU.

Of course it's negative. It's a warning against TTIP and from a Nobel Prize winning economist. Strange that some here complain about the a lack of attention to 'financial experts' yet seem to brush aside the warnings of one on the worlds leading economists.

You say the UK will accept it in a flash, even if Brexit win. Why? I know Cameron will be quick to sell the UK to the highest bidder, but there are plenty of voices against TTIP, including the leader of the opposition. It would also be very doubtful that Cameron will be in power if Brexit do win.

I haven't got around to reading all the comments in reply to the TTIP article, very busy, but will once I get a break.


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Post by SecretFly on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:04 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:This will lead to a great scenario, whereby the EU now tells the UK to go (having voted for it) and the UK says we'll go in our own sweet time!

So the 2 year process has already been kicked down the road to starting in October this year at the earliest.

Does anyone know if the EU has a mechanism to eject a troublesome Member State on an accelerated timetable?

The EU now want to have the work done quickly to again 'set an example' - they want the UK leaving in a climate of fear and economic uncertainty - they want to evoke fear so as to discourage any other member from going the same way.  Again, a display of how nice and responsible these EU 'Leaders' are - prepared to cripple a neighbouring economy to hold this EU thing together - unity by force, threat of force, demanding a revote and friendly only as a cover story for slyness.

The UK should say exactly that to them - "we'll go in our own sweet time" - and drag their feet.  I'd love to see Junckers and his lads all sweaty and angry as they see the UK settle down in mood and prepare calmly and methodically for an exit.  Other Nations are watching.  If the EU 'Leaders' could now command member states not to show British TV coverage, they would.

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Post by Sin é on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:08 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:The lawyers are looking into it. Also seems they are going to strip all British ministers of their portfolios.

guardian wrote:A senior EU leader has confirmed the bloc wants Britain out as soon as possible, warning that David Cameron’s decision to delay the start of Brexit negotiations until his successor is in place may not be fast enough.

Martin Schulz, the president of the European parliament, told the Guardian that EU lawyers were studying whether it was possible to speed up the triggering of article 50 – the untested procedure for leaving the European Union.

“Uncertainty is the opposite of what we need,” Schulz said, adding that it was difficult to accept that “a whole continent is taken hostage because of an internal fight in the Tory party”.

“I doubt it is only in the hands of the government of the United Kingdom,” he said. “We have to take note of this unilateral declaration that they want to wait until October, but that must not be the last word.”

Think it was mentioned last night that there is no legal obligation to trigger the process.

So Britain could decide not to bother triggering it. Don't think that would do either UK or EU any good. We need to move on quickly.
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Post by funnyExiledScot on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:10 pm

Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:This will lead to a great scenario, whereby the EU now tells the UK to go (having voted for it) and the UK says we'll go in our own sweet time!

So the 2 year process has already been kicked down the road to starting in October this year at the earliest.

Does anyone know if the EU has a mechanism to eject a troublesome Member State on an accelerated timetable?

Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

It can be extended but nothing about ejecting a a State before the 2 years.


The drafting of Article 50(2) is the key bit. I see no requirement for the UK to serve notice within any specified timeframe, so it looks like the timing of us serving notice to leave is entirely within our gift. The EU may not like it, but that's what it's Treaty says on my reading of it.

Obviously the Leavers won't want to hang about for ever (and waiting to serve notice doesn't necessarily mean you push back the actual date of leaving either, because the two year deadline is a back-stop).

On reflection I think the Tories have got this bit right. No sense in rushing at this stage, despite the uncertainty. The Civil Service needs time to recruit its negotiating team, and the Tories need time to hold a leadership election and rearrange the Cabinet. Gove and Grayling will want top jobs from Boris.

I tell you who the Tories should recruit onto the negotiating team: William Hague. Loads of experience as a former leader and foreign secretary, intellectually able and is a self-described Eurosceptic Remain voter - nicely placed to lead sensible negotiations.

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Post by Guest on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:13 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:The lawyers are looking into it. Also seems they are going to strip all British ministers of their portfolios.

guardian wrote:A senior EU leader has confirmed the bloc wants Britain out as soon as possible, warning that David Cameron’s decision to delay the start of Brexit negotiations until his successor is in place may not be fast enough.

Martin Schulz, the president of the European parliament, told the Guardian that EU lawyers were studying whether it was possible to speed up the triggering of article 50 – the untested procedure for leaving the European Union.

“Uncertainty is the opposite of what we need,” Schulz said, adding that it was difficult to accept that “a whole continent is taken hostage because of an internal fight in the Tory party”.

“I doubt it is only in the hands of the government of the United Kingdom,” he said. “We have to take note of this unilateral declaration that they want to wait until October, but that must not be the last word.”

Think it was mentioned last night that there is no legal obligation to trigger the process.

So Britain could decide not to bother triggering it. Don't think that would do either UK or EU any good. We need to move on quickly.

They probably could decide that but they wont. It will be triggered sometime before October, methinks. Moving too quickly would be a mistake. Let things settle a bit. Clear thinking needed. There's time enough yet.

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Post by Guest on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:13 pm

The UK can wait to invoke Article 50 and in the mean time swan into and out of the various EU meetings in a position of empowerment.  They can start talking to other EU members about reforms et cetera while holding out to invoke Article 50.  This requires cool heads and is all part of politics and diplomacy.  We can also start talking with other European countries not part of the EU as well as commonwealth nations etc.  It just requires our politicians to get off their backsides and start working hard.  We shouldn't invoke Article 50 before the dust has settled nor before we have ourselves a new leader, with a new team, and with a clear plan.


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Post by Duty281 on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:17 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Duty my fellow sophisticated friend, happy days thumbsup

Yahoo Yahoo Yahoo

We did it!

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Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:18 pm

Nore Staat wrote:The UK can wait to invoke Article 50 and in the mean time swan into and out of the various EU meetings in a position of empowerment.  They can start talking to other EU members about reforms et cetera while holding out to invoke Article 50.  This requires cool heads and is all part of politics and diplomacy.  We can also start talking with other European countries not part of the EU as well as commonwealth nations etc.  It just requires our politicians to get off their backsides and start working hard.  We shouldn't invoke Article 50 before the dust has settled nor before we have ourselves a new leader, with a new team, and with a clear plan.


The only flaw in an otherwise perfect plan! Wink
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Post by SecretFly on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:19 pm

The swing voters listened to Duty's final plea yesterday afternoon.....

Only for that post, Remain would have won. No wonder the post itself caused friction here Wink

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:22 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:The lawyers are looking into it. Also seems they are going to strip all British ministers of their portfolios.

guardian wrote:A senior EU leader has confirmed the bloc wants Britain out as soon as possible, warning that David Cameron’s decision to delay the start of Brexit negotiations until his successor is in place may not be fast enough.

Martin Schulz, the president of the European parliament, told the Guardian that EU lawyers were studying whether it was possible to speed up the triggering of article 50 – the untested procedure for leaving the European Union.

“Uncertainty is the opposite of what we need,” Schulz said, adding that it was difficult to accept that “a whole continent is taken hostage because of an internal fight in the Tory party”.

“I doubt it is only in the hands of the government of the United Kingdom,” he said. “We have to take note of this unilateral declaration that they want to wait until October, but that must not be the last word.”

Think it was mentioned last night that there is no legal obligation to trigger the process.

So Britain could decide not to bother triggering it. Don't think that would do either UK or EU any good. We need to move on quickly.

They probably could decide that but they wont. It will be triggered sometime before October, methinks. Moving too quickly would be a mistake. Let things settle a bit. Clear thinking needed. There's time enough yet.

I think it'll be October at the earliest. The Tories will want their Conference finished and a new leader installed before serving notice. Once Boris is elected he'll want to appear decisive (and the Civil Service needs to be ready by then) and serve notice the very next day.

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Post by Guest on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:22 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:This will lead to a great scenario, whereby the EU now tells the UK to go (having voted for it) and the UK says we'll go in our own sweet time!

So the 2 year process has already been kicked down the road to starting in October this year at the earliest.

Does anyone know if the EU has a mechanism to eject a troublesome Member State on an accelerated timetable?

Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

It can be extended but nothing about ejecting a a State before the 2 years.


The drafting of Article 50(2) is the key bit. I see no requirement for the UK to serve notice within any specified timeframe, so it looks like the timing of us serving notice to leave is entirely within our gift. The EU may not like it, but that's what it's Treaty says on my reading of it.

Obviously the Leavers won't want to hang about for ever (and waiting to serve notice doesn't necessarily mean you push back the actual date of leaving either, because the two year deadline is a back-stop).

On reflection I think the Tories have got this bit right. No sense in rushing at this stage, despite the uncertainty. The Civil Service needs time to recruit its negotiating team, and the Tories need time to hold a leadership election and rearrange the Cabinet. Gove and Grayling will want top jobs from Boris.

I tell you who the Tories should recruit onto the negotiating team: William Hague. Loads of experience as a former leader and foreign secretary, intellectually able and is a self-described Eurosceptic Remain voter - nicely placed to lead sensible negotiations.

Agree with all of that. Hague is a good shout, assuming Boris is actually elected leader. I will feel slightly more positive if Boris surrounds himself with intelligent, experienced, politicians.

Thankfully the leaders from all sides, including Merkel and Hollande, appear to be taking a sensible cautious approach to dealing with Brexit. Rash decisions could hurt all sides involved.

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Post by Hero on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:23 pm

They all didn't want to see him out of pocket.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:23 pm

@GaryLineker 5h5 hours ago
Feel ashamed of my generation. We've let down our children and their children.


Awww, diddums.

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Post by Sin é on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:24 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:This will lead to a great scenario, whereby the EU now tells the UK to go (having voted for it) and the UK says we'll go in our own sweet time!

So the 2 year process has already been kicked down the road to starting in October this year at the earliest.

Does anyone know if the EU has a mechanism to eject a troublesome Member State on an accelerated timetable?

Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

It can be extended but nothing about ejecting a a State before the 2 years.


The drafting of Article 50(2) is the key bit. I see no requirement for the UK to serve notice within any specified timeframe, so it looks like the timing of us serving notice to leave is entirely within our gift. The EU may not like it, but that's what it's Treaty says on my reading of it.

Obviously the Leavers won't want to hang about for ever (and waiting to serve notice doesn't necessarily mean you push back the actual date of leaving either, because the two year deadline is a back-stop).

On reflection I think the Tories have got this bit right. No sense in rushing at this stage, despite the uncertainty. The Civil Service needs time to recruit its negotiating team, and the Tories need time to hold a leadership election and rearrange the Cabinet. Gove and Grayling will want top jobs from Boris.

I tell you who the Tories should recruit onto the negotiating team: William Hague. Loads of experience as a former leader and foreign secretary, intellectually able and is a self-described Eurosceptic Remain voter - nicely placed to lead sensible negotiations.

An EU lawyer could argue that the results of a referendum of said Member State is enough of an indication that the Member State intends to withdraw.

Article 218(3) TFEU provides that
“The Commission, or the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy where the agreement envisaged relates
exclusively or principally to the common foreign and security policy, shall submit recommendations to the Council, which shall adopt a decision authorising the opening of negotiations and, depending on the subject of the agreement envisaged, nominating the Union negotiator or the head of the Union's negotiating team.”
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Post by Guest on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:25 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:The lawyers are looking into it. Also seems they are going to strip all British ministers of their portfolios.

guardian wrote:A senior EU leader has confirmed the bloc wants Britain out as soon as possible, warning that David Cameron’s decision to delay the start of Brexit negotiations until his successor is in place may not be fast enough.

Martin Schulz, the president of the European parliament, told the Guardian that EU lawyers were studying whether it was possible to speed up the triggering of article 50 – the untested procedure for leaving the European Union.

“Uncertainty is the opposite of what we need,” Schulz said, adding that it was difficult to accept that “a whole continent is taken hostage because of an internal fight in the Tory party”.

“I doubt it is only in the hands of the government of the United Kingdom,” he said. “We have to take note of this unilateral declaration that they want to wait until October, but that must not be the last word.”

Think it was mentioned last night that there is no legal obligation to trigger the process.

Not until, "the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal"

So Britain could decide not to bother triggering it. Don't think that would do either UK or EU any good. We need to move on quickly.

They probably could decide that but they wont. It will be triggered sometime before October, methinks. Moving too quickly would be a mistake. Let things settle a bit. Clear thinking needed. There's time enough yet.

I think it'll be October at the earliest. The Tories will want their Conference finished and a new leader installed before serving notice. Once Boris is elected he'll want to appear decisive (and the Civil Service needs to be ready by then) and serve notice the very next day.

ah, that makes sense. I probably haven't heard Cameron correctly.


Last edited by Munchkin on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:25 pm

Duty281 wrote:@GaryLineker  5h5 hours ago
Feel ashamed of my generation. We've let down our children and their children.


Awww, diddums.

Ah, there you are. Enjoy your winnings!

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:27 pm

SecretFly wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:This will lead to a great scenario, whereby the EU now tells the UK to go (having voted for it) and the UK says we'll go in our own sweet time!

So the 2 year process has already been kicked down the road to starting in October this year at the earliest.

Does anyone know if the EU has a mechanism to eject a troublesome Member State on an accelerated timetable?

The EU now want to have the work done quickly to again 'set an example' - they want the UK leaving in a climate of fear and economic uncertainty - they want to evoke fear so as to discourage any other member from going the same way.  Again, a display of how nice and responsible these EU 'Leaders' are - prepared to cripple a neighbouring economy to hold this EU thing together - unity by force, threat of force, demanding a revote and friendly only as a cover story for slyness.

The UK should say exactly that to them - "we'll go in our own sweet time" - and drag their feet.  I'd love to see Junckers and his lads all sweaty and angry as they see the UK settle down in mood and prepare calmly and methodically for an exit.  Other Nations are watching.  If the EU 'Leaders' could now command member states not to show British TV coverage, they would.

So we, as a country, should harm the economies of lots of countries by delaying and creating uncertainty. That's the kind of nice people we are.
Or we could be act in a reasonable, less selfish manner and take the moral high ground.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:27 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Duty281 wrote:@GaryLineker  5h5 hours ago
Feel ashamed of my generation. We've let down our children and their children.


Awww, diddums.

Ah, there you are. Enjoy your winnings!

Thank you, sir.

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Post by Guest on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:29 pm

Sin é wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:This will lead to a great scenario, whereby the EU now tells the UK to go (having voted for it) and the UK says we'll go in our own sweet time!

So the 2 year process has already been kicked down the road to starting in October this year at the earliest.

Does anyone know if the EU has a mechanism to eject a troublesome Member State on an accelerated timetable?

Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

It can be extended but nothing about ejecting a a State before the 2 years.


The drafting of Article 50(2) is the key bit. I see no requirement for the UK to serve notice within any specified timeframe, so it looks like the timing of us serving notice to leave is entirely within our gift. The EU may not like it, but that's what it's Treaty says on my reading of it.

Obviously the Leavers won't want to hang about for ever (and waiting to serve notice doesn't necessarily mean you push back the actual date of leaving either, because the two year deadline is a back-stop).

On reflection I think the Tories have got this bit right. No sense in rushing at this stage, despite the uncertainty. The Civil Service needs time to recruit its negotiating team, and the Tories need time to hold a leadership election and rearrange the Cabinet. Gove and Grayling will want top jobs from Boris.

I tell you who the Tories should recruit onto the negotiating team: William Hague. Loads of experience as a former leader and foreign secretary, intellectually able and is a self-described Eurosceptic Remain voter - nicely placed to lead sensible negotiations.

An EU lawyer could argue that the results of a referendum of said Member State is enough of an indication that the Member State intends to withdraw.  

Article 218(3) TFEU provides that
“The Commission, or the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy where the agreement envisaged relates
exclusively or principally to the common foreign and security policy, shall submit recommendations to the Council, which shall adopt a decision authorising the opening of negotiations and, depending on the subject of the agreement envisaged, nominating the Union negotiator or the head of the Union's negotiating team.”

Not until; "the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal"

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:31 pm

Sin é wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:This will lead to a great scenario, whereby the EU now tells the UK to go (having voted for it) and the UK says we'll go in our own sweet time!

So the 2 year process has already been kicked down the road to starting in October this year at the earliest.

Does anyone know if the EU has a mechanism to eject a troublesome Member State on an accelerated timetable?

Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

It can be extended but nothing about ejecting a a State before the 2 years.


The drafting of Article 50(2) is the key bit. I see no requirement for the UK to serve notice within any specified timeframe, so it looks like the timing of us serving notice to leave is entirely within our gift. The EU may not like it, but that's what it's Treaty says on my reading of it.

Obviously the Leavers won't want to hang about for ever (and waiting to serve notice doesn't necessarily mean you push back the actual date of leaving either, because the two year deadline is a back-stop).

On reflection I think the Tories have got this bit right. No sense in rushing at this stage, despite the uncertainty. The Civil Service needs time to recruit its negotiating team, and the Tories need time to hold a leadership election and rearrange the Cabinet. Gove and Grayling will want top jobs from Boris.

I tell you who the Tories should recruit onto the negotiating team: William Hague. Loads of experience as a former leader and foreign secretary, intellectually able and is a self-described Eurosceptic Remain voter - nicely placed to lead sensible negotiations.

An EU lawyer could argue that the results of a referendum of said Member State is enough of an indication that the Member State intends to withdraw.  

Article 218(3) TFEU provides that
“The Commission, or the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy where the agreement envisaged relates
exclusively or principally to the common foreign and security policy, shall submit recommendations to the Council, which shall adopt a decision authorising the opening of negotiations and, depending on the subject of the agreement envisaged, nominating the Union negotiator or the head of the Union's negotiating team.”

They could try, but I don't think they'd succeed. The EU Referendum isn't actually binding on the Govt., strictly speaking, it's only advisory. The Govt. are free to ignore it, thus I don't think the EU could argue notice has been served, without the Govt. serving formal notice. They must recognise this which is why they've already starting prodding. The provision you quote, Article 218(3), only kicks in after notice has been served.

I think the UK is free to take its good sweet time. I'd recommend serving notice in 50 years time.....

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Post by Sin é on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:32 pm

Nore Staat wrote:The UK can wait to invoke Article 50 and in the mean time swan into and out of the various EU meetings in a position of empowerment.  They can start talking to other EU members about reforms et cetera while holding out to invoke Article 50.  This requires cool heads and is all part of politics and diplomacy.  We can also start talking with other European countries not part of the EU as well as commonwealth nations etc.  It just requires our politicians to get off their backsides and start working hard.  We shouldn't invoke Article 50 before the dust has settled nor before we have ourselves a new leader, with a new team, and with a clear plan.

You seriously think the EU will just sit back and wait for the UK to decide what they want to do? Who are the UK's allies in the EU now? Why should the EU keep to any agreements they made. The offer on the table that Cameron negotiated has been withdrawn. They say UK won't get any better terms than that and will not get better access or better terms to the EU than Norway (UK are looking at 2 Billion per year to trade with EU countries).

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Post by Guest on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:36 pm

Sin é wrote:
Nore Staat wrote:The UK can wait to invoke Article 50 and in the mean time swan into and out of the various EU meetings in a position of empowerment.  They can start talking to other EU members about reforms et cetera while holding out to invoke Article 50.  This requires cool heads and is all part of politics and diplomacy.  We can also start talking with other European countries not part of the EU as well as commonwealth nations etc.  It just requires our politicians to get off their backsides and start working hard.  We shouldn't invoke Article 50 before the dust has settled nor before we have ourselves a new leader, with a new team, and with a clear plan.

You seriously think the EU will just sit back and wait for the UK to decide what they want to do? Who are the UK's allies in the EU now? Why should the EU keep to any agreements they made. The offer on the table that Cameron negotiated has been withdrawn. They say UK won't get any better terms than that and will not get better access or better terms to the EU than Norway (UK are looking at 2 Billion per year to trade with EU countries).


Legally and in the interests of the EU. The EU needs the UK now as much as ever.

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Post by Guest on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:40 pm

Another reason to delay the invoking of Article 50 is first to stabilise the United Kingdom & NI.  Prospective new leaders need to calm NI and Scotland as well as the large proportion of remainer's elsewhere.  Personally I would invoke Article 50 not before the new year. Hopefully the new leader can project a vision that is satisfactory to most.


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Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:40 pm

Duty281 wrote:@GaryLineker  5h5 hours ago
Feel ashamed of my generation. We've let down our children and their children.


Awww, diddums.


He really should just stick to football. Rolling Eyes I'm sure his kids have very little to worry about.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:42 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:

So we, as a country, should harm the economies of lots of countries by delaying and creating uncertainty. That's the kind of nice people we are.
Or we could be act in a reasonable, less selfish manner and take the moral high ground.

An orderly Leaving IS reasonable.  The one the EU 'Leaders' want is one designed to worry other Nations that are also potentially heading towards the conclusion reached by the UK.  So the EU's motivation is to create as much panic and upset in the 'Leaving' nation as they can.  I repeat, a Nice bunch of people.  They're spooked about the word 'Reform'.... they don't want to hear it.  I love it when they're on edge. Smug faces replaced by concerned gasps.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:43 pm

Sin é wrote:
Nore Staat wrote:The UK can wait to invoke Article 50 and in the mean time swan into and out of the various EU meetings in a position of empowerment.  They can start talking to other EU members about reforms et cetera while holding out to invoke Article 50.  This requires cool heads and is all part of politics and diplomacy.  We can also start talking with other European countries not part of the EU as well as commonwealth nations etc.  It just requires our politicians to get off their backsides and start working hard.  We shouldn't invoke Article 50 before the dust has settled nor before we have ourselves a new leader, with a new team, and with a clear plan.

You seriously think the EU will just sit back and wait for the UK to decide what they want to do? Who are the UK's allies in the EU now? Why should the EU keep to any agreements they made. The offer on the table that Cameron negotiated has been withdrawn. They say UK won't get any better terms than that and will not get better access or better terms to the EU than Norway (UK are looking at 2 Billion per year to trade with EU countries).


I just don't think they have a legal basis for doing anything else, and the can't amend the Treaty without UK consent (as we are still a member and anyway, that Irish bloke said the other day that Ireland would veto the EU kicking the UK out of the Single Market).

It's a really odd situation, and I suspect the compromise will be an informal agreement from the Tories that whilst they won't serve notice until October when Boris takes over, at that point they'll get a wriggle on and try to finalise negotiations ASAP (which is in line with what Grayling said last week).

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:44 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I'm a bit scared, I was scared when I woke up, and then I felt a bit sick when I realised its Gove or Johnson leading the country. At this point I dont understand how you can have a new leader of a country without an election.

Really, I feel mostly for Scotland (and Gibraltar). They havent been represented in the biggest democratic process of this union, and I would fully support their right to independence now.

Labour did it when Blair stepped down and we were lumbered with Brown as his replacement.

Also, how do you work out some people haven't been fully represented? Everyone eligible to vote had the chance to do so. Pretty much every General Election most of the population feel like their vote hasn't counted, as they end up with a government they haven't voted for. This was actually far fairer than the normal voting system, as every single vote counted.

According to Nicola Sturgeon Scotland will have a second referendum to leave the UK and rejoin the EU. Gibraltar maybe should have been treated as a special case...to be perfectly honest I don't think its going to make a massive difference to them in the long term. They can always follow Scotland's lead if they want it badly enough. No political system is perfect and we're only talking about 20,000 people or so, out of over 60 million.

Indeed Labour did. I voted Green and may vote Lib Dem next time so I'm not really a supporter of the actual power parties anyway.

Well, Scotland have overwhelmingly voted Remain. And not got it. They are a country after all, however much people may see them as just a big county of England. I feel that after the English government did its level best to keep them with us, they have now failed them. I hope they get their independence, and at least another vote gives them a chance to choose now, and should be the final nail in that IndyRef coffin one way or the other.

This isnt about winning or losing really. People gloating are a bit bonkers. They best hope they are right, because we all lose if this is the wrong choice. It would have been the same the other way, although seeing Gove or Johnson leading the country assures me that the consideration I have been making to move to Australia may be the correct one.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:45 pm

Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:This will lead to a great scenario, whereby the EU now tells the UK to go (having voted for it) and the UK says we'll go in our own sweet time!

So the 2 year process has already been kicked down the road to starting in October this year at the earliest.

Does anyone know if the EU has a mechanism to eject a troublesome Member State on an accelerated timetable?

Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

It can be extended but nothing about ejecting a a State before the 2 years.


The drafting of Article 50(2) is the key bit. I see no requirement for the UK to serve notice within any specified timeframe, so it looks like the timing of us serving notice to leave is entirely within our gift. The EU may not like it, but that's what it's Treaty says on my reading of it.

Obviously the Leavers won't want to hang about for ever (and waiting to serve notice doesn't necessarily mean you push back the actual date of leaving either, because the two year deadline is a back-stop).

On reflection I think the Tories have got this bit right. No sense in rushing at this stage, despite the uncertainty. The Civil Service needs time to recruit its negotiating team, and the Tories need time to hold a leadership election and rearrange the Cabinet. Gove and Grayling will want top jobs from Boris.

I tell you who the Tories should recruit onto the negotiating team: William Hague. Loads of experience as a former leader and foreign secretary, intellectually able and is a self-described Eurosceptic Remain voter - nicely placed to lead sensible negotiations.

Agree with all of that. Hague is a good shout, assuming Boris is actually elected leader. I will feel slightly more positive if Boris surrounds himself with intelligent, experienced, politicians.

Thankfully the leaders from all sides, including Merkel and Hollande, appear to be taking a sensible cautious approach to dealing with Brexit. Rash decisions could hurt all sides involved.


Indeed. The good news is we appear to have plenty of time to negotiate the terms of our withdrawal.

I also hope the heads of the other EU nations remember it was us, the people, that voted to leave and not the government (and therefore don't hold them responsible). Cameron made clear his wish that we remain part of the EU, so hopefully we can leave on amicable terms.
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Post by Guest on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:45 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
So we, as a country, should harm the economies of lots of countries by delaying and creating uncertainty. That's the kind of nice people we are.
Or we could be act in a reasonable, less selfish manner and take the moral high ground.
If you are that concerned with other countries rather than your own country - then you can invoke your right to move.


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Post by Guest on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:45 pm

SecretFly wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:

So we, as a country, should harm the economies of lots of countries by delaying and creating uncertainty. That's the kind of nice people we are.
Or we could be act in a reasonable, less selfish manner and take the moral high ground.

An orderly Leaving IS reasonable.  The one the EU 'Leaders' want is one designed to worry other Nations that are also potentially heading towards the conclusion reached by the UK.  So the EU's motivation is to create as much panic and upset in the 'Leaving' nation as they can.  I repeat, a Nice bunch of people.  They're spooked about the word 'Reform'.... they don't want to hear it.  I love it when they're on edge.  Smug faces replaced by concerned gasps.

It wouldn't make any sense for the EU to 'put the boot in'. They would be shooting themselves in the foot, as well as contradicting the earlier speeches of Merkel and Hollande.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:45 pm

SecretFly wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:

So we, as a country, should harm the economies of lots of countries by delaying and creating uncertainty. That's the kind of nice people we are.
Or we could be act in a reasonable, less selfish manner and take the moral high ground.

An orderly Leaving IS reasonable.  The one the EU 'Leaders' want is one designed to worry other Nations that are also potentially heading towards the conclusion reached by the UK.  So the EU's motivation is to create as much panic and upset in the 'Leaving' nation as they can.  I repeat, a Nice bunch of people.  They're spooked about the word 'Reform'.... they don't want to hear it.  I love it when they're on edge.  Smug faces replaced by concerned gasps.

The smug face expressions have moved across the channel.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:46 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Well, Scotland have overwhelmingly voted Remain. And not got it. They are a country after all

No they're not. They haven't been a country since 1707, when they signed the Act of Union.

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Post by Guest on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:47 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Well, Scotland have overwhelmingly voted Remain. And not got it. They are a country after all

No they're not. They haven't been a country since 1707, when they signed the Act of Union.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:48 pm

Nore Staat wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
So we, as a country, should harm the economies of lots of countries by delaying and creating uncertainty. That's the kind of nice people we are.
Or we could be act in a reasonable, less selfish manner and take the moral high ground.
If you are that concerned with other countries rather than your own country - then you can invoke your right to move.

I can only live in one place at a time - and I'm concerned about all people, not just those I happen to live close to geographically, but whom I have no more in common with than those human beings who live 1000, 2000 or even 10000 miles away. I've never understood the concept that I should care more about someone in, say, Manchester, than someone in, say, Lyons, simply based on political borders.

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Post by GSC on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:50 pm

They voted to remain part of the United Kingdom. The question was Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU, not should Scotland remain a member of the EU. I don't see the issue beyond the SNP having another excuse for a referendum.
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Post by funnyExiledScot on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:51 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:This will lead to a great scenario, whereby the EU now tells the UK to go (having voted for it) and the UK says we'll go in our own sweet time!

So the 2 year process has already been kicked down the road to starting in October this year at the earliest.

Does anyone know if the EU has a mechanism to eject a troublesome Member State on an accelerated timetable?

Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

It can be extended but nothing about ejecting a a State before the 2 years.


The drafting of Article 50(2) is the key bit. I see no requirement for the UK to serve notice within any specified timeframe, so it looks like the timing of us serving notice to leave is entirely within our gift. The EU may not like it, but that's what it's Treaty says on my reading of it.

Obviously the Leavers won't want to hang about for ever (and waiting to serve notice doesn't necessarily mean you push back the actual date of leaving either, because the two year deadline is a back-stop).

On reflection I think the Tories have got this bit right. No sense in rushing at this stage, despite the uncertainty. The Civil Service needs time to recruit its negotiating team, and the Tories need time to hold a leadership election and rearrange the Cabinet. Gove and Grayling will want top jobs from Boris.

I tell you who the Tories should recruit onto the negotiating team: William Hague. Loads of experience as a former leader and foreign secretary, intellectually able and is a self-described Eurosceptic Remain voter - nicely placed to lead sensible negotiations.

Agree with all of that. Hague is a good shout, assuming Boris is actually elected leader. I will feel slightly more positive if Boris surrounds himself with intelligent, experienced, politicians.

Thankfully the leaders from all sides, including Merkel and Hollande, appear to be taking a sensible cautious approach to dealing with Brexit. Rash decisions could hurt all sides involved.


Indeed. The good news is we appear to have plenty of time to negotiate the terms of our withdrawal.

I also hope the heads of the other EU nations remember it was us, the people, that voted to leave and not the government (and therefore don't hold them responsible). Cameron made clear his wish that we remain part of the EU, so hopefully we can leave on amicable terms.

It's why I think someone like Hague would be ideal to lead the negotiations, a Eurosceptic Remain supporter. You don't want someone like Farage involved, he'd be toxic to sensible negotiations. Gove isn't a consensus builder either, and we need to be mindful that we don't hold all the cards.

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Post by Lowlandbrit on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:51 pm

Munchkin wrote:It wouldn't make any sense for the EU to 'put the boot in'. They would be shooting themselves in the foot, as well as contradicting the earlier speeches of Merkel and Hollande.
I'm guessing 'the EU' wants to put the boot in, but the EU member states aren't so keen.

Also, am I the only one that doesn't expect Boris to be PM? Can see them looking for someone to bring the party back together, and Boris spent a lot of time on the front line.


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Post by Guest on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:52 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
Nore Staat wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
So we, as a country, should harm the economies of lots of countries by delaying and creating uncertainty. That's the kind of nice people we are.
Or we could be act in a reasonable, less selfish manner and take the moral high ground.
If you are that concerned with other countries rather than your own country - then you can invoke your right to move.

I can only live in one place at a time - and I'm concerned about all people, not just those I happen to live close to geographically, but whom I have no more in common with than those human beings who live 1000, 2000 or even 10000 miles away. I've never understood the concept that I should care more about someone in, say, Manchester, than someone in, say, Lyons, simply based on political borders.
You remind me of this woman who claims she is a free inhabitant of the Earth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zHRQn_IShw


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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:53 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Well, Scotland have overwhelmingly voted Remain. And not got it. They are a country after all

No they're not. They haven't been a country since 1707, when they signed the Act of Union.

It just seems so bizarre to me that you are so opinionated about freedom, independence, taking back control - only when it suits your argument. Scotland deserve to be represented, and I hope they at least have another referendum after this result.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:53 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I'm a bit scared, I was scared when I woke up, and then I felt a bit sick when I realised its Gove or Johnson leading the country. At this point I dont understand how you can have a new leader of a country without an election.

Really, I feel mostly for Scotland (and Gibraltar). They havent been represented in the biggest democratic process of this union, and I would fully support their right to independence now.

Labour did it when Blair stepped down and we were lumbered with Brown as his replacement.

Also, how do you work out some people haven't been fully represented? Everyone eligible to vote had the chance to do so. Pretty much every General Election most of the population feel like their vote hasn't counted, as they end up with a government they haven't voted for. This was actually far fairer than the normal voting system, as every single vote counted.

According to Nicola Sturgeon Scotland will have a second referendum to leave the UK and rejoin the EU. Gibraltar maybe should have been treated as a special case...to be perfectly honest I don't think its going to make a massive difference to them in the long term. They can always follow Scotland's lead if they want it badly enough. No political system is perfect and we're only talking about 20,000 people or so, out of over 60 million.

Indeed Labour did. I voted Green and may vote Lib Dem next time so I'm not really a supporter of the actual power parties anyway.

Well, Scotland have overwhelmingly voted Remain. And not got it. They are a country after all, however much people may see them as just a big county of England. I feel that after the English government did its level best to keep them with us, they have now failed them. I hope they get their independence, and at least another vote gives them a chance to choose now, and should be the final nail in that IndyRef coffin one way or the other.

This isnt about winning or losing really. People gloating are a bit bonkers. They best hope they are right, because we all lose if this is the wrong choice. It would have been the same the other way, although seeing Gove or Johnson leading the country assures me that the consideration I have been making to move to Australia may be the correct one.


I believe that people should be able to determine their own destiny, so if the people of Scotland truly want to leave the UK and join the EU I hope they get the chance to do so.

I think its too soon to gloat, as its going to take a year or two, at least, for the ramifications to become clear. I voted Leave, accepting there would be some economic penalties, however I feel the Remainers (some of them anyway) are a bit too quick off the mark with their:

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...saying the country is doomed, we're going to go into a recession and millions will lose their jobs. At this point, there is simply no way of knowing.


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Post by Ent on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:54 pm

GSC wrote:They voted to remain part of the United Kingdom. The question was Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU, not should Scotland remain a member of the EU. I don't see the issue beyond the SNP having another excuse for a referendum.

They voted to remain in the uk when it was part of the Eu, this is a significant constitutional change the people of Scotland did not vote for.

I'm not Scottish and I wanted them to remain in the uk but they quite clearly have grounds for another referendum.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:54 pm

Nore Staat wrote:The UK can wait to invoke Article 50 and in the mean time swan into and out of the various EU meetings in a position of empowerment.  They can start talking to other EU members about reforms et cetera while holding out to invoke Article 50.  This requires cool heads and is all part of politics and diplomacy.  We can also start talking with other European countries not part of the EU as well as commonwealth nations etc.  It just requires our politicians to get off their backsides and start working hard.  We shouldn't invoke Article 50 before the dust has settled nor before we have ourselves a new leader, with a new team, and with a clear plan.
Jeeesus! You think? If we took that attitude I would fully expect everyone else to give us shorter shrift than they are thinking of right now.
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:55 pm

GSC wrote:They voted to remain part of the United Kingdom. The question was Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the EU, not should Scotland remain a member of the EU. I don't see the issue beyond the SNP having another excuse for a referendum.

You dont? They voted to stay in a Union that was part of the EU. If this vote is such a big deal, and we all agree it was, why is that not a big deal to Scotland? If the in or out of the EU is so massive, then Scotland should be able to have their say. They voted overwhelmingly to remain, and have been ignored, basically.

It undermines the principles of wanting independence from the EU if we then demand Scotland stay part.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:55 pm

Nore Staat wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
So we, as a country, should harm the economies of lots of countries by delaying and creating uncertainty. That's the kind of nice people we are.
Or we could be act in a reasonable, less selfish manner and take the moral high ground.
If you are that concerned with other countries rather than your own country - then you can invoke your right to move.

If we, as a nation, cared about other countries then we wouldn't have voted as we did. This is now about looking after the number one. Boris and Cameron have already declared no rush, so I really doubt we'll be serving notice until Boris is crowned in October.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:57 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Well, Scotland have overwhelmingly voted Remain. And not got it. They are a country after all

No they're not. They haven't been a country since 1707, when they signed the Act of Union.

Wrong. Just wrong.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:57 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:

So we, as a country, should harm the economies of lots of countries by delaying and creating uncertainty. That's the kind of nice people we are.
Or we could be act in a reasonable, less selfish manner and take the moral high ground.

An orderly Leaving IS reasonable.  The one the EU 'Leaders' want is one designed to worry other Nations that are also potentially heading towards the conclusion reached by the UK.  So the EU's motivation is to create as much panic and upset in the 'Leaving' nation as they can.  I repeat, a Nice bunch of people.  They're spooked about the word 'Reform'.... they don't want to hear it.  I love it when they're on edge.  Smug faces replaced by concerned gasps.

The smug face expressions have moved across the channel.

Reform isn't a bad thing - you don't need a smug face to give proof that it's required.  The UK has.  

Smug is seeing the growing frictions rise within the EU, across the EU, and smile carelessly and heedlessly whilst declaring the project goes ahead, full steam ahead, no modification, no change in the goal.  That's smug and it's careless and it's dangerous.  

You can see the unreal world they live in by the expressions now on their faces - they never thought it could happen that anyone would leave the 'perfect' Project.  Truth is it's not perfect - we need to change it.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:57 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Well, Scotland have overwhelmingly voted Remain. And not got it. They are a country after all

No they're not. They haven't been a country since 1707, when they signed the Act of Union.

It just seems so bizarre to me that you are so opinionated about freedom, independence, taking back control - only when it suits your argument. Scotland deserve to be represented, and I hope they at least have another referendum after this result.

Well the two are wholly different.

I struggle to see how Scotland could flourish as an independent nation, in economic terms. Equally, the SNP support this bizarre notion that Scotland should divorce itself from the United Kingdom, thus gaining independence, and then they should surrender that same independence to the European Union as soon as possible.

Scotland have already had their referendum. Polling has indicated that if Brexit happens, as it has, then:

a) the majority of Scottish people don't support another referendum
b) the majority of Scottish people wouldn't vote for independence (and why would they, the collapse in oil prices totally ruined the SNP's economic argument)

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:58 pm

Nore Staat wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Nore Staat wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
So we, as a country, should harm the economies of lots of countries by delaying and creating uncertainty. That's the kind of nice people we are.
Or we could be act in a reasonable, less selfish manner and take the moral high ground.
If you are that concerned with other countries rather than your own country - then you can invoke your right to move.

I can only live in one place at a time - and I'm concerned about all people, not just those I happen to live close to geographically, but whom I have no more in common with than those human beings who live 1000, 2000 or even 10000 miles away. I've never understood the concept that I should care more about someone in, say, Manchester, than someone in, say, Lyons, simply based on political borders.
You remind me of this woman who claims she is a free inhabitant of the Earth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zHRQn_IShw

Well, if you choose not to care about people in other countries, that's your decision.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:58 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Well, Scotland have overwhelmingly voted Remain. And not got it. They are a country after all

No they're not. They haven't been a country since 1707, when they signed the Act of Union.

Wrong. Just wrong.

Scotland's not a country. England is not a country. Wales is not a country. Northern Ireland is not a country.

The United Kingdom is a country.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 4:59 pm

Duty281 wrote:Polling has indicated...

Yeah, that's a good argument.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 24 Jun 2016, 5:00 pm

Duty281 wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Well, Scotland have overwhelmingly voted Remain. And not got it. They are a country after all

No they're not. They haven't been a country since 1707, when they signed the Act of Union.

Wrong. Just wrong.

Scotland's not a country. England is not a country. Wales is not a country. Northern Ireland is not a country.

The United Kingdom is a country.

The EU was once 28.

Now it's 27.


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