The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

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Post by Guest on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 3:37 pm

First topic message reminder :

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I may have missed it on this thread but what are peoples thoughts on TTIP? Personally I think TTIP would be a a disaster for the EU, but can we fight it off?

Broadly negative but largely irrelevant as the UK would sign up to it in a flash with or without the EU.

Of course it's negative. It's a warning against TTIP and from a Nobel Prize winning economist. Strange that some here complain about the a lack of attention to 'financial experts' yet seem to brush aside the warnings of one on the worlds leading economists.

You say the UK will accept it in a flash, even if Brexit win. Why? I know Cameron will be quick to sell the UK to the highest bidder, but there are plenty of voices against TTIP, including the leader of the opposition. It would also be very doubtful that Cameron will be in power if Brexit do win.

I haven't got around to reading all the comments in reply to the TTIP article, very busy, but will once I get a break.


Last edited by Munchkin on Wed 22 Jun 2016, 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by catchweight on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 12:25 pm

Boris Johnson is a very dangerous individual because hes an excellent spoofer who know how to get what he wants and is willing to gamble with major far reaching issues purely for himself and his own career.

Hes already delivered a political obituary to Cameron as a great politician and leader, who he essentially took down. Now that the Brexit has happened, he wanted Cameron to stay on to actually see it through because Im not sure he knows how to do it and I dont think he has any plan on how to do it. With Cameron stepping down, hes already backpeddaling over claims, hes already telling those he convicned to Leave that there is no rush. Its not a game. Big media splash headlines with wonderfully simple media style solutions wont work here.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 12:26 pm

All this because Cameron was worried about UKIP stopping him winning the last GE..

Shocking !!!!!

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Post by temporary21 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 12:28 pm

To be Frank Mr Khan needs to resign as the Mayor and take control of his party. Hes the only one with any credit right now

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Post by Nico the gman on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 12:29 pm

If we had a 2nd referendum and the vote was  52%/48% in favour of remain do we then go for a 3rd referendum after protests from the leave voters if the turn out is the same.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 12:33 pm

Yes - or let everyone know its a minimum 60/40 referendum. all hypothetical. i doubt the petition will get more than 5 million anyway.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 12:33 pm

Nico the gman wrote:If we had a 2nd referendum and the vote was  52%/48% in favour of remain do we then go for a 3rd referendum after protests from the leave voters if the turn out is the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bphR-6Xi1_I

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 12:34 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:Yes - or let everyone know its a minimum 60/40 referendum. all hypothetical. i doubt the petition will get more than 5 million anyway.

Are you crazy ??

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Post by ShahenshahG on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 12:42 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Yes - or let everyone know its a minimum 60/40 referendum. all hypothetical. i doubt the petition will get more than 5 million anyway.

Are you crazy ??

Just having a laugh lad. Relax.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/remember-that-time-nigel-farage-said-52-48-votes-should-lead-to-second-referendum-5963900/

I was mocking this^

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Post by ShahenshahG on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 1:06 pm

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/25/regions-with-the-biggest-leave-votes-are-most-economically-dependent-on-the-eu-5966531/#mv-b

This is the thing I cant get my head around

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 1:10 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/25/regions-with-the-biggest-leave-votes-are-most-economically-dependent-on-the-eu-5966531/#mv-b

This is the thing I cant get my head around

Does it not simply offer Proof positive that the EU (as currently constructed) doesn't work?

Those that 'should' be happiest - aren't. Maybe that's the whole point - the 'keep silent' money hasn't worked.

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Post by pedro on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 1:17 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:http://theantimedia.org/brexit-worlds-400-richest/ - interesting.
You have to add in that the Sterling lost 5-10% of it's value vs other major currencies.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 1:19 pm

SecretFly wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/25/regions-with-the-biggest-leave-votes-are-most-economically-dependent-on-the-eu-5966531/#mv-b

This is the thing I cant get my head around

Does it not simply offer Proof positive that the EU (as currently constructed) doesn't work?

Those that 'should' be happiest - aren't.  Maybe that's the whole point - the 'keep silent' money hasn't worked.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/view-wales-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale

If that was so then it would be more. Places with little immigration voting to end immigration and places funded by EU have voted to reclaim money from the eu so the treasury can fill in the coffers which have been damaged by this very result - thereby putting themselves in the Poopie. There has to be some limit to stupidity surely. You're playing devils advocate but I bet you're laughing at them inside.

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Post by pedro on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 1:20 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

God let this be true
Can't see why Scotland couldn't re-join EU (or remain) and still be part of the UK. Plenty of similar examples of territories under the same "crown" who have different EU member status.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 1:25 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Yes - or let everyone know its a minimum 60/40 referendum. all hypothetical. i doubt the petition will get more than 5 million anyway.

Are you crazy ??

Just having a laugh lad. Relax.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/remember-that-time-nigel-farage-said-52-48-votes-should-lead-to-second-referendum-5963900/

I was mocking this^

The fact I needed to ask speaks volumes..

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Post by ShahenshahG on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 1:25 pm

pedro wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

God let this be true
Can't see why Scotland couldn't re-join EU (or remain) and still be part of the UK. Plenty of similar examples of territories under the same "crown" who have different EU member status.

Because all serious businesses would go to Scotland instead and England and Wales would take it up the a*se even worse than now

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Post by rumpelstiltskindoh on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 1:29 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/25/regions-with-the-biggest-leave-votes-are-most-economically-dependent-on-the-eu-5966531/#mv-b

This is the thing I cant get my head around

Does it not simply offer Proof positive that the EU (as currently constructed) doesn't work?

Those that 'should' be happiest - aren't.  Maybe that's the whole point - the 'keep silent' money hasn't worked.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/view-wales-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale

If that was so then it would be more. Places with little immigration voting to end immigration and places funded by EU have voted to reclaim money from the eu so the treasury can fill in the coffers which have been damaged by this very result - thereby putting themselves in the Poopie. There has to be some limit to stupidity surely. You're playing devils advocate but I bet you're laughing at them inside.

I live and work in Blaenau Gwent! It's basically people saying, "Uggghhh. Me hate politicians. Me hurt them"

In a year's time it will be, "Why me only find twigs to eat?"

Welcome to the Evil Clown Circus!

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Post by pedro on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 1:33 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
pedro wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

God let this be true
Can't see why Scotland couldn't re-join EU (or remain) and still be part of the UK. Plenty of similar examples of territories under the same "crown" who have different EU member status.

Because all serious businesses would go to Scotland instead and England and Wales would take it up the a*se even worse than now
Scotland should be able to decide that though, not England or Wales.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 1:36 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:

If that was so then it would be more. Places with little immigration voting to end immigration and places funded by EU have voted to reclaim money from the eu so the treasury can fill in the coffers which have been damaged by this very result - thereby putting themselves in the Poopie. There has to be some limit to stupidity surely. You're playing devils advocate but I bet you're laughing at them inside.

If these things are true - if people that should be happy aren't, if people that should be content aren't, then the published 'reasons' for choosing Leave are obviously not exactly the only reasons.

It's as much in the interests of Remain supporters as it is the Leave supporters to 'claim' why certain groups of people voted the way they voted.  

But I saw Blair being interviewed this morning and he was or course down as 'Statesman' observer with all the experience needed to comment of a big world issue.  So he was asked one particular question that I always laugh at when a person who supported a Losing opinion is questioned: "Why did the Remain camp lose?"  The assumption is not only that Blair can speak for the wishes and opinions of the Remain camp but also be spokesperson for the Leave camp.

The people that can answer best why the Remain camp lost are those who voted Leave.  The best people to say why there was a worldwide financial collapse is those that weren't responsible for it - but back then, the people who were asked to explain why it happened were the very professional economics people that never predicted it, couldn't control it and pretty much caused it to begin with.

People voted Leave for their reasons - not necessarily for one reason or another but for a combination of reasons that were probably many and complex.  Each voter had their reasons - they weren't content, they weren't happy.  The task for all politicians is finding out why the electorate isn't happy when politicians believe they should be.  Don't tell people why they feel this or that - ask them and listen to them.  The EU doesn't listen....biggest mistake that must be modified.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 1:44 pm

Leave vote was highest in areas most affected by immigration..Hartlepool etc..

Lucky enough not to live in an urban area where perhaps Granny is intimidated by foreign speaking gangs or where housing and jobs are in short supply for the locals..

People are scared of the future and their kids future...

When you're scared you do silly things...

Sad that Leave won..

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 1:59 pm

The bleating from Remain is pathetic, you lost, now concentrate on the future rather than the past.

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Post by Sin é on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 2:06 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Not for everyone, actually, no. For many of the working class in the manufacturing industry, this actually presents a glimmer of hope. An example would be Ballymena in NI which has been hit very hard over the past few years due to increased pressure imposed by EU policies which has driven costs through the roof. Wrightbus (who provide the London Buses) is currently struggling and the likes of Boris Johnson have hugely helped the development of the company which employs over 2000 people. This could provide them with the opportunities to sell more within the UK, their main customer. Sadiq Khan has already made it clear in his manifesto that he wishes to cease purchasing from Wrightbus and look abroad.

One of the main reasons the manufacturing industry has been hit so hard would be the environmental policies imposed by EU, which have made it very expensive to setup and maintain factories. This has also led to wage slavery as these companies simply cannot afford to pay their workers a decent wage. Incidentally, many companies are very interested in remaining within the EU as many immigrants will come to work for the cheapest wages, the morals of which haven't actually been mentioned much.

These same politicians who have agreed to these policies then buy from countries who do not follow the same policies (such as China) and can provide much cheaper products which are environmentally friendly. China, for example, open coal mines every couple of weeks it seems and then sell environmental friendly products to the suckers in our government. This hypocrisy should be considered morally reprehensible.

Leaving the EU does not solve this by itself of course but it does provide national sovereignty and the potential to have our own policies that do not need to be authorised by a foreign county.

How can Germany & France with huge manufacturing industries compete and be profitable with similar environmental standards?

I was intrigued by your comment about London Transport and the Boris connection. Is the reason why Sadiq Khan wants to drop the new buses down to a design/manufacturing fault which has then stinking up London, not down to competition from China or the far east? Indeed, I see that Wrightbus exports to China and is looking to export India & south america.
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Post by Samo on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 2:12 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
pedro wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

God let this be true
Can't see why Scotland couldn't re-join EU (or remain) and still be part of the UK. Plenty of similar examples of territories under the same "crown" who have different EU member status.

Because all serious businesses would go to Scotland instead and England and Wales would take it up the a*se even worse than now

Thats England and Wales' problem. Reap what you sow. Bring on Indy Ref 2.

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Post by lostinwales on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 2:17 pm

I could cope with the loss if it was by a decent margin and voted on by an informed electorate. Neither was the case.

I believe the vote would be different if held today, because the result has finally lead to the electorate becoming informed. The fact that they were not before is the responsibility of both Leave and Remain campaigns

Markets go up and down and I have no idea of where they are now. I know at one point I read that the global markets had fallen in value by 2trillion dollars? That would be 57000 dollars per Leave voter. (Or roughly 57000.5 pounds at current rates...)

Well lets look on the bright side. There is a good chance nobody will actually dare trigger article 50. The leadership of both main political parties has been destroyed. UKIP should now disappear. With a lot of luck we might get some better politicians and better ideas as to how to move on. I'll try not to think about what will happen if we don't.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 2:18 pm

That's the thing. If Scotland do it they have to do it outside the UK. That's OK but not if they're still part of this union which wnot be acceptable in Westminster. So whatever Scotland want to do they can join EU but they have to leave the United Kingdom to do so.

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Post by GSC on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 2:19 pm

Question has to be asked whether the EU would be interested in an Independent Scotland as a member.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 2:19 pm

Samo wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
pedro wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

God let this be true
Can't see why Scotland couldn't re-join EU (or remain) and still be part of the UK. Plenty of similar examples of territories under the same "crown" who have different EU member status.

Because all serious businesses would go to Scotland instead and England and Wales would take it up the a*se even worse than now

Thats England and Wales' problem.  Reap what you sow.  Bring on Indy Ref 2.

Sturgeon might be advised to drop the Veto bullcrap then, she knows she has no power to do anything about it and is just antagonising those who could block Scottish independence.

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Post by GSC on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 2:24 pm

Sturgeons just trying to explore every avenue she can, because if the EU say no thanks to an independent Scotland, she'll lose another referendum.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 2:30 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The bleating from Remain is pathetic, you lost, now concentrate on the future rather than the past.

You make it sound like a soccer match.

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Post by Samo on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 2:31 pm

You can bet Sturgeons been talking to the EU for months in anticipation of this. The only real roadblock the last time was Spain, and whether they would accept us as a seperate entity if we left the UK and had to re-apply for membership. The fact we've been dragged out of the EU against out will could work in our favour. Time will tell.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 2:31 pm

Sin é wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Not for everyone, actually, no. For many of the working class in the manufacturing industry, this actually presents a glimmer of hope. An example would be Ballymena in NI which has been hit very hard over the past few years due to increased pressure imposed by EU policies which has driven costs through the roof. Wrightbus (who provide the London Buses) is currently struggling and the likes of Boris Johnson have hugely helped the development of the company which employs over 2000 people. This could provide them with the opportunities to sell more within the UK, their main customer. Sadiq Khan has already made it clear in his manifesto that he wishes to cease purchasing from Wrightbus and look abroad.

One of the main reasons the manufacturing industry has been hit so hard would be the environmental policies imposed by EU, which have made it very expensive to setup and maintain factories. This has also led to wage slavery as these companies simply cannot afford to pay their workers a decent wage. Incidentally, many companies are very interested in remaining within the EU as many immigrants will come to work for the cheapest wages, the morals of which haven't actually been mentioned much.

These same politicians who have agreed to these policies then buy from countries who do not follow the same policies (such as China) and can provide much cheaper products which are environmentally friendly. China, for example, open coal mines every couple of weeks it seems and then sell environmental friendly products to the suckers in our government. This hypocrisy should be considered morally reprehensible.

Leaving the EU does not solve this by itself of course but it does provide national sovereignty and the potential to have our own policies that do not need to be authorised by a foreign county.

How can Germany & France with huge manufacturing industries compete and be profitable with similar environmental standards?

I was intrigued by your comment about London Transport and the Boris connection. Is the reason why Sadiq Khan wants to drop the new buses down to a design/manufacturing fault which has then stinking up London, not down to competition from China or the far east? Indeed, I see that Wrightbus exports to China and is looking to export India & south america.

France and Germany are already well established with huge brands within the industry. However, it is interesting to see that the likes of Volkswagen had been attempting to bypass certain restrictions in order to attain greater efficiency with their vehicles. The biggest brands can certainly afford it.

Well, it is well known that Boris Johnson has been a real friend to Wrightbus. There have been a lot of complaints made about the Routemaster product (especially regarding the hybrid technology which is designed outside of Wrightbus) but Boris seems very keen to put his faith in local economy, in this instance at least. The Chinese haven't entered the market in this case just yet but they are about to, with fully electric buses that are much cheaper. As I have alluded to before, they can sell this cheap as they do not abide by the same policies and release copious amounts of dangerous emissions while they market their products as environmentally friendly to sell to the West.

As for Wrightbus selling overseas, that is their only hope currently. They have to look outside of Europe and they are especially keen to start business in the Arab States.

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Post by Rowley on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 2:37 pm

Sturgeon is doing her job. She represents a party seeking Scottish independence. They have had one vote on it and lost. In order to have another she needs a fundamental change in Scotland or the UK's circumstances to rationalise or justify it. Voting to leave the EU has provided that, as indeed it was always likely to.

This just represents another byproduct of voting out that everyone should have seen coming.

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Post by Sin é on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 2:38 pm

GSC wrote:Question has to be asked whether the EU would be interested in an Independent Scotland as a member.

Why not? Scotland will be better set up than a lot of eastern european countries and of course that long coast with its fishing and oil industries.

I can also see a lot of industry moving over the border (and sea) to Glasgow. For example, 70% of Nissan (Sunderland) production is exported to other EU countries. 10% tarif on imports into EU are going to make that plant uncompetitive.
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Post by GSC on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 2:41 pm

In the same way there are countries looking to make brexit as hard as possible to dissuade other countries following there will be those who don't want to make this a viable route to independence.
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Post by lostinwales on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 2:58 pm

I am sure the EU would accept an independent Scotland. Unfortunately I am also sure that it would be yet another drawn out process that could leave Scotland in limbo for years

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Post by kingjohn7 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:06 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

Julius - don't forget about the people who have been angry and disillusioned about being so blatantly deceived since 1975.

I actually think the Remainers will be more annoyed by the lies, as it will be something they can point to for the loss. People arent stupid- especially in the large working class areas that have been getting shafted and lied to by politicians since forever. They may put forward their views in a less eloquent way than the more "educated" but in a lot of ways understand the world and life much more.

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Post by Rowley on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:20 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

You think they're angry now, wait until they try and negotiate the trade deals with the EU and realise the price for free trade is keeping free movement of people in place.

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Post by Lowlandbrit on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:25 pm

GSC wrote:Question has to be asked whether the EU would be interested in an Independent Scotland as a member.
Probably, but under what terms? Would Scotland be prepared to join the Euro? Schengen? And how does the EU budget deal with the loss of a net contributor?

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:29 pm

Well, it's become immediately obvious that "vote leave" leadership haven't got anything remotely resembling a plan for what to do next.  Promises made in the campaign dropped like hot cakes. Their Little Brittain mentality looks likely to cause the break up of the United Kingdom, among the numerous other unpleasant consequences.  They are all over the shop on issues like the single market and immigration. 

It's going to be a tough ride, with a great many casualties - no doubt including many "vote leave" voters.

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Post by Sin é on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:31 pm

lostinwales wrote:I am sure the EU would accept an independent Scotland. Unfortunately I am also sure that it would be yet another drawn out process that could leave Scotland in limbo for years

Scotland is already a EU member and well up to speed on all that is expected of them. Can't see there being too long a delay. They could probably give them temporary membership while everything is being formalised (i.e., let them avail of free trade and movement of people).

I think from a security point of view, the EU would also like to have Scotland as a member. Think Scotland already said they were going to apply for membership of NATO.
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Post by Sin é on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:39 pm

Lowlandbrit wrote:
GSC wrote:Question has to be asked whether the EU would be interested in an Independent Scotland as a member.
Probably, but under what terms? Would Scotland be prepared to join the Euro? Schengen? And how does the EU budget deal with the loss of a net contributor?

Tarifs on imports from UK. I've seen a figure of 2 Bn per annum from UK to EU mentioned (calculated on what the deal is presently with Norway based on its GDP).
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Post by Yadsendew on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:41 pm

Nico the gman wrote:If we had a 2nd referendum and the vote was  52%/48% in favour of remain do we then go for a 3rd referendum after protests from the leave voters if the turn out is the same.

Then if that doesn't work go for best of five and then rock, paper, scissors. Unfortunately, my choice 'Remain' lost. Not entirely sure whether it really was massively influenced by the old codgers vote although it would appear that proportionally more voted than the younger generations. I'm an old codger and I voted stay (considering the future of my kids) and so did all the other old codgers I know (at least I think I did at my age!) Never been too concerned re the immigration question; however, sadly one of the key questions that was of concern and not addressed with any certainty was how will numbers be controlled and by whom?

Leave won despite some very iffy propaganda from Farage, let's live with it.

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Post by Hero on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:42 pm

The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 19 Image16

How can a vote count when the pledges it was based upon be lies?

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:43 pm

Sin é wrote:
lostinwales wrote:I am sure the EU would accept an independent Scotland. Unfortunately I am also sure that it would be yet another drawn out process that could leave Scotland in limbo for years

Scotland is already a EU member and well up to speed on all that is expected of them. Can't see there being too long a delay. They could probably give them temporary membership while everything is being formalised (i.e., let them avail of free trade and movement of people).

I think from a security point of view, the EU would also like to have Scotland as a member. Think Scotland already said they were going to apply for membership of NATO.

Have Scotland got much of an Army and Air Force?

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:59 pm

They have their share of a UK army/air force.

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Post by lostinwales on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 4:00 pm

kingjohn7 wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

Julius - don't forget about the people who have been angry and disillusioned about being so blatantly deceived since 1975.

I actually think the Remainers will be more annoyed by the lies, as it will be something they can point to for the loss. People arent stupid- especially in the large working class areas that have been getting shafted and lied to by politicians since forever. They may put forward their views in a less eloquent way than the more "educated" but in a lot of ways understand the world and life much more.

If they are so Frak smart how come they have managed to create the circumstances where the country is going to be run by a bunch of right wing muppets who will care for them even less than the current bunch?

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Post by lostinwales on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 4:03 pm

SecretFly wrote:They have their share of a UK army/air force.

Do they now? I am afraid the right wing of this typhoon belongs to Eng/Wales and the left to Scotland?

Its irrelevant. Defense of the kind being considered here is covered by Nato. That isn't an EU organisation.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 4:08 pm

lostinwales wrote:
SecretFly wrote:They have their share of a UK army/air force.

Do they now? I am afraid the right wing of this typhoon belongs to Eng/Wales and the left to Scotland?

Its irrelevant. Defense of the kind being considered here is covered by Nato. That isn't an EU organisation.

I don't know the point, but you asked what kind of army/navy Scotland have. Currently their army is a UK one.

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Post by Guest on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 4:09 pm

lostinwales wrote:
kingjohn7 wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

Julius - don't forget about the people who have been angry and disillusioned about being so blatantly deceived since 1975.

I actually think the Remainers will be more annoyed by the lies, as it will be something they can point to for the loss. People arent stupid- especially in the large working class areas that have been getting shafted and lied to by politicians since forever. They may put forward their views in a less eloquent way than the more "educated" but in a lot of ways understand the world and life much more.

If they are so Frak smart how come they have managed to create the circumstances where the country is going to be run by a bunch of right wing muppets who will care for them even less than the current bunch?

It wasn't them that created the circumstances.

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Post by Sin é on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 4:25 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Sin é wrote:
lostinwales wrote:I am sure the EU would accept an independent Scotland. Unfortunately I am also sure that it would be yet another drawn out process that could leave Scotland in limbo for years

Scotland is already a EU member and well up to speed on all that is expected of them. Can't see there being too long a delay. They could probably give them temporary membership while everything is being formalised (i.e., let them avail of free trade and movement of people).

I think from a security point of view, the EU would also like to have Scotland as a member. Think Scotland already said they were going to apply for membership of NATO.

Have Scotland got much of an Army and Air Force?

They have a naval base (Faslane) that can accommodate nuclear submarines. I think its the only naval base in the UK, so England/Wales will still want to use it for their fleet.
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Post by Sin é on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 4:29 pm

lostinwales wrote:
SecretFly wrote:They have their share of a UK army/air force.

Do they now? I am afraid the right wing of this typhoon belongs to Eng/Wales and the left to Scotland?

Its irrelevant. Defense of the kind being considered here is covered by Nato. That isn't an EU organisation.

Not all of it. They will need naval protection for fisheries.

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