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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Post by beninho Fri 17 Jun 2016, 2:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

McLaren wrote:
beninho wrote:Having concerns about EU immigration does not make you a far right nutter or xenophobe. Mclaren, what is your knowledge on EU immigration, what dealings do you have with it? Can you see why people may have concerns about it?


Unless your concerns about how we can offer a more humane immigration system then you are xenophobe.  If you are worried about the geographical location of where someone popped out of a uterus then you are not thinking rationally.

And no, I cannot see why anyone would have any issue with the current levels of immigration to/from the UK.  Unless as I said above you are worried about how some people coming here are treated.

Do you not agree that an expanding population due to EU immigration, would lead to an extra burden on the NHS, housing, benefit and other public services aswell as the rise in rents?

Do you think that EU immigration, where people get fake payslips in order to claim benefits, working tax credits child tax credits and housing assistance? Or people that work minimal hours and tdo not pay any tax or nino who then can claim housing and benefit assistance? Or people that illegally overstay in the country, in order to achieve a loophole and gain housing or benefit assistance.

All of these are ongoing issues, though you did not answer my question in the first place.


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Post by super_realist Wed 03 Aug 2016, 8:09 am

You don't know your Shakespeare then Mac?

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Post by Roller_Coaster Wed 03 Aug 2016, 8:28 am

I don't!

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Post by JAS Wed 03 Aug 2016, 8:46 am

Me neither, there wasn't really much of it in the Scottish Curriculum and have never felt the inclination to study/research it. I am however a bit more familiar with the romantic drunken philanderer's poetry.

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Post by McLaren Wed 03 Aug 2016, 8:58 am

Super

I know who Shylock is but I am asking why you would call me that?
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Post by super_realist Wed 03 Aug 2016, 9:00 am

You sound like a miser with your 10 year old balls and clubs.

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Post by beninho Wed 03 Aug 2016, 10:09 am

Your being called a tight Jew. Its a bit anti semetic, as was the play, though that was quite a long time ago. I'm not sure that people should still be using it nowadays. But each to their own.

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Post by super_realist Wed 03 Aug 2016, 10:13 am

No worse than people saying Scots are tight

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Post by beninho Wed 03 Aug 2016, 10:30 am

super_realist wrote:No worse than people saying Scots are tight

It probably is, it has a hell of a lot more history attached to it. I always thought it was just the general behaviour of mildly racist comedians or idiots that still go on about the Jews being tight. But as I say, each to their own views and opinions. You think Jews are tight, its a bit strange, but your call.

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Post by super_realist Wed 03 Aug 2016, 10:57 am

I don't know if they are tight or not, never met one.
Shylock is a fictional character who was famously tight. So what. I inferred Shylock was tight, I didn't even mention jews.

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Post by beninho Wed 03 Aug 2016, 11:42 am

super_realist wrote:I don't know if they are tight or not, never met one.
Shylock is a fictional character who was famously tight. So what. I inferred Shylock was tight, I didn't even mention jews.

But if you know your Shakespeare, which I assume you do, as you used a Shakespeare character, then you would be aware that Shylock is portrayed as a tight money lending Jew, with the inference that he is tight due to him being a Jew. And from what I understand he sees the light after accepting Christianity. ( I don't fully recall the exact nature, its been a long time, and I'm not big of Wills work to be fair) It was pretty Anti Semitic in those days.

So you may not have used the word "Jew" but you did not have to. Because you used a well known Jewish character to make your point. If you did not mean it as such, you probably should not have made the comment that someone else does not know his Shakespeare if you do not either.

I would guess that you clearly knew what you were saying, though whether you meant it seriously or not is not up to me to say.

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Post by Davie Wed 03 Aug 2016, 12:33 pm

The professionally offendable strike again!

I knew who Shylock was ... a money lender and miser of great repute. Whether he was Jewish or not is irrelevant unless the slight was intentional which I doubt it was

There are worse things to get wound up about....

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Post by beninho Wed 03 Aug 2016, 12:38 pm

I'm not Jewish so I take no offence at all, just like to call out something if I see it. And claiming to know Shakespeare and then using a known Jewish characters name to call someone tight, is a bit wrong. Just my opinion.

Very little winds me up to be fair unless it directly impacts me or my family.

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Post by super_realist Wed 03 Aug 2016, 12:44 pm

Shylock was a famously niggardly and parsimonious money lender, whether or not he was jewish has nothing to do with it.

If you go looking for offence on behalf of others, you can find it anywhere.

Do we need to know the taxonomy and associated history of every comparison before making it? Course not.

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Post by beninho Wed 03 Aug 2016, 1:32 pm

"Shylock was a famously niggardly and parsimonious money lender" because he was Jewish. it has everything to do with it. The whole point about him was that he was an untrustworthy Jew doing a job only Jews would do.

No ones looking for offence, I would be surprised if anyone is offended, its just in my view its a pretty stupid thing to do as I thought that calling people tight jews was a thing of the past.

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Post by dynamark Wed 03 Aug 2016, 2:18 pm

Just catching up.Re wooden tees my understanding was that they always left a mark on the underside of the club so you could see just how badly you were cutting across the ball.
P

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Post by raycastleunited Wed 03 Aug 2016, 2:30 pm

dynamark wrote:Just catching up.Re wooden tees my understanding was that they always left a mark on the underside of the club so you could see just how badly you were cutting across the ball.
P

Oh yes Dyna, it's embarrassing looking at the angle of the white marks on bottom of my driver

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Post by raycastleunited Wed 03 Aug 2016, 2:44 pm

Shakespeare's portrayal of Shylock shows a clear anti-semetic streak, if you've read the Merchant of Venice it is very clear. However, the character Shylock is famous for his miserly attitude. In the context of the discussion above, it is clear that Super was calling Mac tight, not calling him a Jew.

Pretty pathetic to go on a hunt for offense. And then to infer that Super thinks Jews are tight. That's a big leap.

If I referred to an over officious traffic warden as a parking nazi, would you take that to mean that traffic wardens were using gas chambers to commit genocide?

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Post by kwinigolfer Wed 03 Aug 2016, 2:51 pm

Of course.
Drumpf's spokesperson has blamed Obama (President from 2008 - 2016) for the death of Captain Khan, in 2004, after all.
Rolling Eyes

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Post by beninho Wed 03 Aug 2016, 3:14 pm

raycastleunited wrote:Shakespeare's portrayal of Shylock shows a clear anti-semetic streak, if you've read the Merchant of Venice it is very clear. However, the character Shylock is famous for his miserly attitude. In the context of the discussion above, it is clear that Super was calling Mac tight, not calling him a Jew.

Pretty pathetic to go on a hunt for offense. And then to infer that Super thinks Jews are tight. That's a big leap.

If I referred to an over officious traffic warden as a parking nazi, would you take that to mean that traffic wardens were using gas chambers to commit genocide?


If someone wants to call someone tight, then why not call them tight, instead of making an implication towards a well known Jewish character, and we all remember the old jokes about Jews being tight. I have not taken any offence or gone on the hunt for offense, it seems to be that was the link, but if others think different then all well and good. He may not think Jews are tight, maybe I am overthinking it. If so apologies all round.

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Post by MontysMerkin Wed 03 Aug 2016, 3:17 pm

A scot calling a scot miserly. You couldn't make it up!
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Post by Roller_Coaster Wed 03 Aug 2016, 3:32 pm

MontysMerkin wrote:A scot calling a scot miserly. You couldn't make it up!

Shakespeare did.

(Probably.)


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Post by Davie Wed 03 Aug 2016, 3:32 pm

Definitely overthinking. I consider myself reasonably educated - enough to know that Shylock was a skinflint, usurer and miser of some repute.

I never considered if he was Jewish or not. It seems that the fact he WAS Jewish was significant in the play, and his conversion to Christianity at the end was seen as a "happy ending" - but I wonder how many people who are familiar with his name or the expression "pound of flesh" actually realise he was a Jewish miser and not just a miser, unless they've actually read or seen the play

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Post by SmithersJones Wed 03 Aug 2016, 4:07 pm

Never read or seen it but I knew. I too thought Super's comment was somewhat risqué in that context, proving I suppose that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
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Post by Davie Wed 03 Aug 2016, 4:35 pm

Hang on - look at it another way.

When it comes to the (possibly racial) traits exhibited by Shylock, there is the thrifty and parsimonious aspect, and the money-lending, usuary aspect

While these may be linked to a Jewish personality, I think it is probably fair to say that the thrifty/parsimonious traits aren't particularly negative ones; the money lending/grabbing/pound of flesh aspects most certainly are

But in the original reference, super was using Shylock as someone who was thrifty - and I don't think it's an unfair generalization (at least no more unfair than any generalization) to say the Jewish people, like Scots and Yorkshiremen, are thrifty

If the accusation, calling mac a Shylock was referring to him being a usurer and wanting his pound of flesh (literally or metaphoricaly), then maybe there could be interpreted some anti-semitic overtones

That wasn't the case though - he was accusing him of being tight by using 10 year old golf balls - thrift - a trait well reconized in Jewish, Scots and Yorkies, but not particularly a negative racial trait - just a "fact"

He may as well have called him Arkwright, or (even) McLaren as Shylock

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Post by pedro Wed 03 Aug 2016, 7:12 pm

Hey hey.

In medieaval Europe and Shakespeares time you were not considered a good Christian if you were a money lender or occupied in money business. At the same time Jews were banned from occupying a number of jobs, incl. doctor, scientist etc.

Therefore money lending and banking became a traditional jewish occupation, mainly out of neccessity.

To say that jews are / were misers or tight has nothing to do with being racist, as jews per definition and tradition were occupied in the money business. Things have changed, yes, but it was hard fact for centuries.

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Post by McLaren Wed 03 Aug 2016, 7:46 pm

Super

I would be interested to know if you would make comments about Shylock relating to someones tightness in a public setting without the anonymity of a golf forum?


Ben has made the arguments for why most people wouldn't make the comment Super did very well and I agree with his posts. It is nothing to do with seeking out offence but pointing out that it is not longer politically correct or very humane to use tired stereotypes about Jews being tight.

I wonder if Super is a paid up member of the David Icke fan club and whether he thinks the lizard people (jews) rule the world?
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Post by Davie Wed 03 Aug 2016, 8:34 pm

Pedro has it right.

Mac - nice of you to acknowledge ben's comments but ignore mine

I don't see why it is un-PC to refer to tightness - as I commented earlier, it WOULD be offensive/un-PC if he was accusing you of being a Jewish money lender charging life-changing amounts of interest, but all he did was call you tight - and with only an implied reference to Jews that some picked up on but not all would

To repeat, being careful with money may be a stereotypical Jewish trait, but not really a negative one compared to some of the more scurrilous stereotypes assigned to them

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Post by beninho Wed 03 Aug 2016, 9:30 pm

The thing is i'm not a member of any pc brigade, though I am a lib dems voter! Just picked up on the potential connotations. I do still think it was a daft reference mind. But I also like a healthy debate.

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Post by McLaren Wed 03 Aug 2016, 9:33 pm

Davie

I didn't ignore your post it just wasn't relevant for my post about whose comments were worthy of praise

I can do another post where your post is acknowledged as being a but sh**ty?
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Post by beninho Wed 03 Aug 2016, 9:45 pm

I'm guessing if someone called mac tight he would have taken it fine. Just the unecessary way it was done.

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Post by McLaren Wed 03 Aug 2016, 9:46 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Of course.
Drumpf's spokesperson has blamed Obama (President from 2008 - 2016) for the death of Captain Khan, in 2004, after all.
:roll:

Not great but stories coming out that Trump has asked foreing policy exprests why "we have nukes if we don't use them"?

Is this the point we Poopie our pants?
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Post by SmithersJones Wed 03 Aug 2016, 10:54 pm

Excuse the golf talk but Nike have announced they're pulling out of the golf equipment business. Wonder if Rory will be playing his old Titleist clubs and more pertinently his old Scotty next time out?
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Post by beninho Thu 04 Aug 2016, 6:54 am

Didn't addidas recently pull out as well? Could be the beginning of the end of the massive deals for the golfers. Maybe they will just focus on cloths and shoes and leave the clubs to the more specialist companies.

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Post by navyblueshorts Thu 04 Aug 2016, 11:32 am

McLaren wrote:Super

I would be interested to know if you would make comments about Shylock relating to someones tightness in a public setting without the anonymity of a golf forum?


Ben has made the arguments for why most people wouldn't make the comment Super did very well and I agree with his posts.  It is nothing to do with seeking out offence but pointing out that it is not longer politically correct or very humane to use tired stereotypes about Jews being tight.

I wonder if Super is a paid up member of the David Icke fan club and whether he thinks the lizard people (jews) rule the world?
Oh FFS! Get off it. This is pathetic in the extreme. S_R doesn't regularly make racist comments or use deliberately dodgy allegories. Instead of this knee-jerk fauxfence stupidity, why not ask what he actually meant? I'm sure it was the element of tightness and had nothing to do with anti-Semitism. Most people would know the 'pound of flesh' term and the fact that Shylock was a money lender, but they would not think about the Jewish connotation. I wouldn't. Schiess! I must be an anti-Semite/racist. OMG!
All a bit like the pathetic assumptions over Sergio....
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Post by McLaren Thu 04 Aug 2016, 12:22 pm

Navy

One of the points being made is that it doesn't matter what he meant, so why would I ask him what he meant? But anyway he has since revealed what he meant and exposed further ignorance relating to the matter.

I really doubt he would have made the comment were he in conversation with valued friends or if he was out with a women he wished to make a good impression on.

What Ben was saying was more a word of caution to Super in case he hadn't realised how badly his comment would go down in most settings.
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Post by Davie Thu 04 Aug 2016, 12:24 pm

You do talk such pish, mac

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Post by JAS Thu 04 Aug 2016, 12:51 pm

McLaren wrote:Navy



I really doubt he would have made the comment were he in conversation with valued friends or if he was out with a women he wished to make a good impression on.  

What Ben was saying was more a word of caution to Super in case he hadn't realised how badly his comment would go down in most settings.

I think I'll try it out at the weekend and see what happens. My guess is I'll get a jovial retort from the target and a chuckle from the rest of the group as well as the odd comment about the irony of a Jock calling somebody else tight. I'll keep a watchful eye out for the PC police before a slip the comment out there though.

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Post by navyblueshorts Thu 04 Aug 2016, 3:22 pm

McLaren wrote:Navy

One of the points being made is that it doesn't matter what he meant, so why would I ask him what he meant?  But anyway he has since revealed what he meant and exposed further ignorance relating to the matter.

I really doubt he would have made the comment were he in conversation with valued friends or if he was out with a women he wished to make a good impression on.  

What Ben was saying was more a word of caution to Super in case he hadn't realised how badly his comment would go down in most settings.
You're talking pretentious nonsense Mac.

There's plenty of room for discussion about whether a remark like that is an appropriate way of suggesting someone is tight these days, but the assumption that S_R was demeaning Jews with his remark is pathetic to the point of being nonsensical.
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Post by MontysMerkin Thu 04 Aug 2016, 3:45 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

One of the points being made is that it doesn't matter what he meant, so why would I ask him what he meant?  But anyway he has since revealed what he meant and exposed further ignorance relating to the matter.

I really doubt he would have made the comment were he in conversation with valued friends or if he was out with a women he wished to make a good impression on.  

What Ben was saying was more a word of caution to Super in case he hadn't realised how badly his comment would go down in most settings.
You're talking pretentious nonsense Mac.

There's plenty of room for discussion about whether a remark like that is an appropriate way of suggesting someone is tight these days, but the assumption that S_R was demeaning Jews with his remark is pathetic to the point of being nonsensical.
I think S_R not demeaning someone would be more worthy of note.
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Post by Roller_Coaster Thu 04 Aug 2016, 3:58 pm

MontysMerkin wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

One of the points being made is that it doesn't matter what he meant, so why would I ask him what he meant?  But anyway he has since revealed what he meant and exposed further ignorance relating to the matter.

I really doubt he would have made the comment were he in conversation with valued friends or if he was out with a women he wished to make a good impression on.  

What Ben was saying was more a word of caution to Super in case he hadn't realised how badly his comment would go down in most settings.
You're talking pretentious nonsense Mac.

There's plenty of room for discussion about whether a remark like that is an appropriate way of suggesting someone is tight these days, but the assumption that S_R was demeaning Jews with his remark is pathetic to the point of being nonsensical.
I think S_R not demeaning someone would be more worthy of note.

Indeed, he's just like the

Whistle

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Post by McLaren Thu 04 Aug 2016, 4:10 pm

Maybe I live in PC. guardian reading bubble but if I were to use "shylock" in the context super did at the social events I attend most of the people there would start to wonder if I was worth knowing.
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Post by Davie Thu 04 Aug 2016, 4:19 pm

Most of us wonder that anyway

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Post by McLaren Thu 04 Aug 2016, 5:02 pm

drumroll
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Post by pedro Thu 04 Aug 2016, 8:09 pm

Mac, as PC as you are, doesn't it bother you to be a niggard?

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Post by McLaren Thu 04 Aug 2016, 10:08 pm

What some people on here don't realise is that political correctness only exists to because swaths of the population are insensitive to hurtful comments about groups of people.
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Post by MontysMerkin Fri 05 Aug 2016, 9:06 am

pedro wrote:Mac, as PC as you are, doesn't it bother you to be a niggard?
I think that sort of language went out with Alf Garnett.
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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist Fri 05 Aug 2016, 9:50 am

Niggardly is to the N word as Suffrage is to suffering. It's a completely different word with no connection to the other.

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Post by McLaren Fri 05 Aug 2016, 9:59 am

Bit weird how often you use it super.
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Post by Davie Fri 05 Aug 2016, 10:07 am

Maybe just trolling for people who don't realize the true meaning of the word. You should know all about trolling

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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by MontysMerkin Fri 05 Aug 2016, 10:26 am

super_realist wrote:Niggardly is to the N word as Suffrage is to suffering. It's a completely different word with no connection to the other.
laughing Yahoo Doh
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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread - Page 12 Empty Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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