Brexit impact on Player drain to France.

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Post by propdavid_london on Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:48 pm

http://www.skysports.com/more-sports/news/12123/10315725/brexit-could-stifle-rugby-and-cricket-imports-to-britain
So, with a possible exit from the EU - the worry of player drain to the big French clubs wont be as much of an issue any more!

On the flip it will be harder to bring in quality player imports.

Perhaps the RFU will need to adapt their policy on international quotas in Prem squads etc.

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Post by HammerofThunor on Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:01 pm

It's been relatively easy to get non-European players in on visas if they are capped internationals. So I can't see it stopping top quality players coming in. It might stop this non-international players coming in.

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Post by Hazel Sapling on Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:02 pm

2.5 years until we know the rulings. This will all be conjecture. My expectation of post Brexit Britain is an EEC agreement. Think immigration will continue as was.

It does not matter a huge amount anyway as the French only seem to sign recent internationals (who would be unaffected) and even those are not in excessive quantities from the UK (the southern hemisphere gets decimated). The English largely import top internationals from smaller countries (remain unaffected) or from southern hemisphere (members of the Commonwealth who will probably get special treatment). If UK teams are forced to stop importing Saffers and Aussies, then there may start being an issue.

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Post by nganboy on Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:13 pm

I thought the Brexit was about kicking out all the migrants - especially Muslims. Does that mean you're going to kick out all the SH players and coaches? Especially does that mean no one wants SBW?
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Post by lostinwales on Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:20 pm

nganboy wrote:I thought the Brexit was about kicking out all the migrants - especially Muslims. Does that mean you're going to kick out all the SH players and coaches? Especially does that mean no one wants SBW?

Brexit means we will be kicking out all the Euro immigrants. You know, the educated hard working types who come from compatible cultures that can actually speak English as a second language to a good standard.

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Post by TrailApe on Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:29 pm

I thought the Brexit was about kicking out all the migrants - especially Muslims. Does that mean you're going to kick out all the SH players and coaches? Especially does that mean no one wants SBW?

Not quite old bean, we have had Muslim immigrants for decades now, pat and parcel of break up of Empire.

In fact I thing it was Betty the First that was one of the first European monarchs to set up an Embassy for the Saracens, true Queenie was probably doing it to pee the Spanish off, but there you go, deeds speak louder than words.


As for kicking out migrants - how far back do you go?
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Post by nganboy on Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:32 pm

lostinwales wrote:
nganboy wrote:I thought the Brexit was about kicking out all the migrants - especially Muslims. Does that mean you're going to kick out all the SH players and coaches? Especially does that mean no one wants SBW?

Brexit means we will be kicking out all the Euro immigrants. You know, the educated hard working types who come from compatible cultures that can actually speak English as a second language to a good standard.

Oh that's alright then.

About 8 years ago my brother took over running a restaurant in London. Flash but it had been losing money for a few years. Stepped in a worked his nut off for a few months. Sadly he said by the third month all the locals had left. It was a couple of Kiwis, an Aussie and a bunch of Poles that could stand the heat in the kitchen. Funnily enough now in NZ only half his crew are Kiwis the rest are from all over the world.
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Post by nganboy on Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:35 pm

TrailApe wrote:
I thought the Brexit was about kicking out all the migrants - especially Muslims. Does that mean you're going to kick out all the SH players and coaches? Especially does that mean no one wants SBW?

Not quite old bean, we have had Muslim immigrants for decades now, pat and parcel of break up of Empire.

In fact I thing it was Betty the First that was one of the first European monarchs to set up an Embassy for the Saracens, true Queenie was probably doing it to pee the Spanish off, but there you go, deeds speak louder than words.


As for kicking out migrants - how far back do you go?

Well I'm ethnic Chinese so we tend to start talking about things at about 5000 years ago. However as a Kiwi a couple of generations in and you're part of the furniture. So let's split the difference and say 2500 years.
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Post by lostinwales on Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:49 pm

nganboy wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
nganboy wrote:I thought the Brexit was about kicking out all the migrants - especially Muslims. Does that mean you're going to kick out all the SH players and coaches? Especially does that mean no one wants SBW?

Brexit means we will be kicking out all the Euro immigrants. You know, the educated hard working types who come from compatible cultures that can actually speak English as a second language to a good standard.

Oh that's alright then.

About 8 years ago my brother took over running a restaurant in London. Flash but it had been losing money for a few years. Stepped in a worked his nut off for a few months. Sadly he said by the third month all the locals had left. It was a couple of Kiwis, an Aussie and a bunch of Poles that could stand the heat in the kitchen. Funnily enough now in NZ only half his crew are Kiwis the rest are from all over the world.

It is an issue. There are a lot of concerns in the UK about curry houses. Traditionally we have shipped in Bangladeshi chefs who work their behinds off, but current regs have reduced the numbers coming into the UK to a trickle. Unfortunately many of the kids of the chefs who have stayed in this country just don't have the same work ethic, so Indian restaurants have ended up employing chefs from (probably) Poland and places like Romania.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:41 am

nganboy wrote:I thought the Brexit was about kicking out all the migrants - especially Muslims. Does that mean you're going to kick out all the SH players and coaches? Especially does that mean no one wants SBW?

Well thats the England first 15 gone then

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Post by propdavid_london on Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:56 am

Lets try and keep it on the rugby.
So, unless the 'Kolpac' sp? agreement is redrafted it could possibly mean that all pacific islanders and SA players that currently have 'EU like' status as pro players and therefore aren't included in the max 2 foreign payers in a match day squad would now be considered 'international'.......Not sure if that makes sense!

One way wound this would be for the RFU to increase the 'international' quota in match day squads.

The RFU already has a method for keeping its internationals in country.

But Brexit will presumably require Welsh players to obtain work permits/visas to play in France....Brexit may inadvertently resolved any Welsh player drain concerns!

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Post by Exiledinborders on Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:25 am

If EU citizens and those who can get in on Kolpak ruling have to come in on the same terms as international sports people from other countries it would mean established internationals could play here. I would stop journeymen players coming here and make space for English players from academies.

That may affect competitiveness of English teams in short term but in the long term it would probably be a good thing.

In any event this is all speculation t this stage. Who knows what rules will be brought in?

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Post by Pot Hale on Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:56 am

propdavid_london wrote:Lets try and keep it on the rugby.  
So, unless the 'Kolpac' sp? agreement is redrafted it could possibly mean that all pacific islanders and SA players that currently have 'EU like' status as pro players and therefore aren't included in the max 2 foreign payers in a match day squad would now be considered 'international'.......Not sure if that makes sense!

One way wound this would be for the RFU to increase the 'international' quota in match day squads.  

The RFU already has a method for keeping its internationals in country.  

But Brexit will presumably require Welsh players to obtain work permits/visas to play in France....Brexit may inadvertently resolved any Welsh player drain concerns!

I'm lost and ignorant.  Why would Welsh players have to get work permits to play in France?  Does this mean Ulster (NI bit) players have to get work permits to play in Ireland?  The Ireland team would now be made up of an EU and non-EU country.  Ulster Rugby would cover a territory comprising EU/non-EU countries.  Any potential issues on these?  Does Kolpac agreement affect anything for NZ/Aus/SA/PI players playing in Ireland (the island)?
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Post by The Great Aukster on Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:55 am

Pot Hale wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Lets try and keep it on the rugby.  
So, unless the 'Kolpac' sp? agreement is redrafted it could possibly mean that all pacific islanders and SA players that currently have 'EU like' status as pro players and therefore aren't included in the max 2 foreign payers in a match day squad would now be considered 'international'.......Not sure if that makes sense!

One way wound this would be for the RFU to increase the 'international' quota in match day squads.  

The RFU already has a method for keeping its internationals in country.  

But Brexit will presumably require Welsh players to obtain work permits/visas to play in France....Brexit may inadvertently resolved any Welsh player drain concerns!

I'm lost and ignorant.  Why would Welsh players have to get work permits to play in France?  Does this mean Ulster (NI bit) players have to get work permits to play in Ireland?  The Ireland team would now be made up of an EU and non-EU country.  Ulster Rugby would cover a territory comprising EU/non-EU countries.  Any potential issues on these?  Does Kolpac agreement affect anything for NZ/Aus/SA/PI players playing in Ireland (the island)?

Are there any Welsh players in France who aren't already internationals and therefore ineligible to apply for a visa? For guys like Paddy Butler, Sean Dougal and Chris Farrell who aren't internationals it could be a problem in France and for Eoin Griffin and JJ Hanrahan maybe an issue in England?

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Post by Alex_Germany on Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:03 am

Rugby players coming to the UK have just taken a 10% pay cut relative to those going to France or Ireland.

That Premier League salary cap suddenly looks a bit low.

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Post by robbo277 on Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:36 pm

It depends whether they put a moratorium around current immigrants or start booting them out. And that would be from here to Europe and vica-versa.

The Ireland one is interesting and border controls around Northern Ireland is a current debate, so absolutely nothing decided yet. The effect on Ulster rugby will probably be quite low on the considerations.

With Northern Ireland as a region voting in, there have been renewed calls for one Ireland. Would clean things up from a rugby perspective, but obviously there are more important considerations.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman on Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:49 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Lets try and keep it on the rugby.  
So, unless the 'Kolpac' sp? agreement is redrafted it could possibly mean that all pacific islanders and SA players that currently have 'EU like' status as pro players and therefore aren't included in the max 2 foreign payers in a match day squad would now be considered 'international'.......Not sure if that makes sense!

One way wound this would be for the RFU to increase the 'international' quota in match day squads.  

The RFU already has a method for keeping its internationals in country.  

But Brexit will presumably require Welsh players to obtain work permits/visas to play in France....Brexit may inadvertently resolved any Welsh player drain concerns!

I'm lost and ignorant.  Why would Welsh players have to get work permits to play in France?  Does this mean Ulster (NI bit) players have to get work permits to play in Ireland?  The Ireland team would now be made up of an EU and non-EU country.  Ulster Rugby would cover a territory comprising EU/non-EU countries.  Any potential issues on these?  Does Kolpac agreement affect anything for NZ/Aus/SA/PI players playing in Ireland (the island)?

Are there any Welsh players in France who aren't already internationals and therefore ineligible to apply for a visa? For guys like Paddy Butler, Sean Dougal and Chris Farrell who aren't internationals it could be a problem in France and for Eoin Griffin and JJ Hanrahan maybe an issue in England?

There have been a few youngsters heading over there over the last few seasons. Luke Hamilton and Joel Ringer spring to mind. But I know that Luke has signed for Leicester next year, and I have a feeling that Joel has returned too. But realistically if there are any uncapped Welsh lads out there, they are generally playing at a lower level and not really the sort of player that is really thought too much about when the 'player drain' issue is mentioned. Also those lads would probably just end up at an English Championship or Welsh Prem side, or just jack in and go back to being a normal 9-5 worker.
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Post by The Great Aukster on Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:22 pm

robbo277 wrote:With Northern Ireland as a region voting in, there have been renewed calls for one Ireland. Would clean things up from a rugby perspective, but obviously there are more important considerations.

What could be a more important consideration than rugby! Ireland has always been united in rugby - pre-partition, pre-Europe, post EU and now post Brexit, so there is nothing to "clean" up as a result of the vote.

Unsurprisingly the calls for a United Ireland have been coming from nationalist politicians seeking to make political gain from the result - same as in Scotland - plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. A vote to remain in the EU is not a vote to leave the UK, it's a vote not to leave Europe.

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Post by Sin é on Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:43 pm

Freedom of movement of people existed between Ireland and UK since partition and prior to entry to EU can continue if agreed by both. EU can't change that.

Trade agreement however is a different kettle of fish. That will be negotiated by the EU.
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Post by Golden on Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:51 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Lets try and keep it on the rugby.  
So, unless the 'Kolpac' sp? agreement is redrafted it could possibly mean that all pacific islanders and SA players that currently have 'EU like' status as pro players and therefore aren't included in the max 2 foreign payers in a match day squad would now be considered 'international'.......Not sure if that makes sense!

One way wound this would be for the RFU to increase the 'international' quota in match day squads.  

The RFU already has a method for keeping its internationals in country.  

But Brexit will presumably require Welsh players to obtain work permits/visas to play in France....Brexit may inadvertently resolved any Welsh player drain concerns!

I'm lost and ignorant.  Why would Welsh players have to get work permits to play in France?  Does this mean Ulster (NI bit) players have to get work permits to play in Ireland?  The Ireland team would now be made up of an EU and non-EU country.  Ulster Rugby would cover a territory comprising EU/non-EU countries.  Any potential issues on these?  Does Kolpac agreement affect anything for NZ/Aus/SA/PI players playing in Ireland (the island)?

Are there any Welsh players in France who aren't already internationals and therefore ineligible to apply for a visa? For guys like Paddy Butler, Sean Dougal and Chris Farrell who aren't internationals it could be a problem in France and for Eoin Griffin and JJ Hanrahan maybe an issue in England?

Isnt Butler from Munster?

If any Ulstermen are playing in Europe they could just claim their Irish passport and there would be no issue right?

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Post by Sin é on Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:23 pm

Paddy Butler is from Munster.

Ulster players are in a good position as they are automatically eligible for both passports. A big opportunity for all Irish players as they will be in demand in both France and UK.
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Post by Golden on Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:26 pm

Sin é wrote:Paddy Butler is from Munster.

Ulster players are in a good position as they are automatically eligible for both passports. A big opportunity for all Irish players as they will be in demand in both France and UK.

Well it might make it slightly more complicated for players from the south to play in the uk no?

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Post by Exiledinborders on Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:28 pm

Alex_Germany wrote:Rugby players coming to the UK have just taken a 10% pay cut relative to those going to France or Ireland.

That Premier League salary cap suddenly looks a bit low.
They have also taken a 10% cut in their living costs.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:36 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
Unsurprisingly the calls for a United Ireland have been coming from nationalist politicians seeking to make political gain from the result - same as in Scotland - plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. A vote to remain in the EU is not a vote to leave the UK, it's a vote not to leave Europe the EU.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:44 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
Unsurprisingly the calls for a United Ireland have been coming from nationalist politicians seeking to make political gain from the result - same as in Scotland - plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. A vote to remain in the EU is not a vote to leave the UK, it's a vote not to leave Europe the EU.

?

Good morning everyone.


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Post by nganboy on Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:19 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
Alex_Germany wrote:Rugby players coming to the UK have just taken a 10% pay cut relative to those going to France or Ireland.

That Premier League salary cap suddenly looks a bit low.
They have also taken a 10% cut in their living costs.

No if you're paid in pounds and paying in pounds it doesn't make any difference. Unless you're buying lots of imports rather than only locally made produce / products then in fact your livings costs may have gone up
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Post by TJ on Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:17 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Lets try and keep it on the rugby.  
So, unless the 'Kolpac' sp? agreement is redrafted it could possibly mean that all pacific islanders and SA players that currently have 'EU like' status as pro players and therefore aren't included in the max 2 foreign payers in a match day squad would now be considered 'international'.......Not sure if that makes sense!

One way wound this would be for the RFU to increase the 'international' quota in match day squads.  

The RFU already has a method for keeping its internationals in country.  

But Brexit will presumably require Welsh players to obtain work permits/visas to play in France....Brexit may inadvertently resolved any Welsh player drain concerns!

I'm lost and ignorant.  Why would Welsh players have to get work permits to play in France?  Does this mean Ulster (NI bit) players have to get work permits to play in Ireland?  The Ireland team would now be made up of an EU and non-EU country.  Ulster Rugby would cover a territory comprising EU/non-EU countries.  Any potential issues on these?  Does Kolpac agreement affect anything for NZ/Aus/SA/PI players playing in Ireland (the island)?

The NI thing would be a real tangle to sort out.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:30 pm

Much as I love rugby, I think the sport is small, small change in the grand scheme of Brex-it things that will matter over the next three, four or five years.

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Post by Irish Londoner on Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:49 pm

TrailApe wrote:In fact I thing it was Betty the First that was one of the first European monarchs to set up an Embassy for the Saracens, true Queenie was probably doing it to pee the Spanish off, but there you go, deeds speak louder than words.

No wonder Wray has delusions of grandeur !

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Post by propdavid_london on Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:35 pm

Nothing will change for a long time anyway. Isnt there a new deal soon to be in place between the RFU and Prem clubs? Hopefully there will be some sections on foreign player limits in matchday squads and any adjustments necessary.

My thinking was that the EU could impose restrictions on British players in the French leagues....but thinking about that the French leagues are pretty unrestricted globally anyway - Not sure if the FFR has much power over the match day squad composition in the T14 other than registration!

The problems will be possibly for EU nationals wanting to play in British leagues - but that depends on the immigration criteria that is still to be drafted. Most likely it will just be an additional visa application (shouldn't be much of a barrier).

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Post by Irish Londoner on Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:26 pm

Given that the EU and Junker in particular have already said there will be no trade deal without freedom of movement, there won't be an issue. So much for "Taking Back Control".

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Post by Exiledinborders on Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:24 am

Irish Londoner wrote:Given that the EU and Junker in particular have already said there will be no trade deal without freedom of movement, there won't be an issue. So much for "Taking Back Control".
We will see what happens but be clear on one thing Juncker does not have a say. It will be decided by the heads of government and to a certain extent the parliament - not the commission. Anyway Juncker is usually peed by ten in the morning which is why Mutti Merkel wants him out.

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Post by doctor_grey on Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:26 pm

I think Merkel wants him out, as do many others, because he is a EU zealot, an intolerant true believer. A compromise on all sides will be found because the countries and economies are already woven so closely together. Juncker will be on the sidelines within a half year.

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Post by Sin é on Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:08 am

doctor_grey wrote:I think Merkel wants him out, as do many others, because he is a EU zealot, an intolerant true believer.  A compromise on all sides will be found because the countries and economies are already woven so closely together.  Juncker will be on the sidelines within a half year.  

The Irish Prime Minister went to see Merkel last week to look for a special treatment because of having a landborder (NI) with the UK. She told him there would be no concessions for anyone. This is going to cause huge problems for NI as for instance, most of their agricultural produce (milk, beef, pigs) are exported into the Republic for processing and then reimported back into UK.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:19 am

Sin é wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:I think Merkel wants him out, as do many others, because he is a EU zealot, an intolerant true believer.  A compromise on all sides will be found because the countries and economies are already woven so closely together.  Juncker will be on the sidelines within a half year.  

The Irish Prime Minister went to see Merkel last week to look for a special treatment because of having a landborder (NI) with the UK. She told him there would be no concessions for anyone. This is going to cause huge problems for NI as for instance, most of their agricultural produce (milk, beef, pigs) are exported into the Republic for processing and then reimported back into UK.  


Why do people not even blink now when both reading and printing this stuff?  

Maybe a "F**k You" note to Angela might get the message across that there'll be no EU police or EU Army here dictating where we put our 'hard borders' and where we choose to relax them, either in trade or people terms.  If that means Merkel (Queen of Europe) then tells us to "F**k off", then so be it.  I'll be fine with that.  Premium prices then into Europe for our prized cold-water fish.  All EU fishing boats out of Irish territorial water Wink

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Post by Sin é on Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:34 am

In fairness, she said that each member would have to agree to any concessions. The chances of getting everyone to agree to these would be impossible. For example, France can't wait to remove financial services from London to Paris and I'm sure there are a few eyeing up the Nissan plants in Sunderland.

Fly, I take it you are a fan of Yanis Varoufakis Very Happy Really great interview with him and noam chomsky. Essential viewing for the Eurosceptics!

edit: as for the fish. Blame our Gov. for that (and a very strong farming lobby)!
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Post by SecretFly on Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:46 am

Sin é wrote:In fairness, she said that each member would have to agree to any concessions. The chances of getting everyone to agree to these would be impossible. For example, France can't wait to remove financial services from London to Paris and I'm sure there are a few eyeing up the Nissan plants in Sunderland.

Fly, I take it you are a fan of Yanis Varoufakis Very Happy Really great interview with him and noam chomsky. Essential viewing for the Eurosceptics!

edit: as for the fish. Blame our Gov. for that (and a very strong farming lobby)!

I do blame our successive governments, Sin - for all of it.  

You can only really be a slave when you bow your head and accept the shackles.  We've accepted the shackles and we're sleep-walking into a Grand European Empire, God love it;

. where our boys (TDs and civil servants) will be relieved of any real power (yet once more in our history!  Do we ever learn?),
. where they'll keep telling us "our troubles are not our fault but our administration's fault in Brussels.  Blame them, not us."
. where they'll keep asking to be elected to the Dail gossip-den nonetheless
. and they'll of course keep demanding for pay/expenses increases too "to ensure we keep in line with salaries and expenses in Brussels and to ensure we keep getting the 'best quality' National Teacher TDs."

:laugh:It's laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

Oh and I still say we tell Merkel to keep her mind on her own country, which isn't my country.  She has enough hassles of her own making to deal with there. Cool

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Post by doctor_grey on Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:08 am

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:I think Merkel wants him out, as do many others, because he is a EU zealot, an intolerant true believer.  A compromise on all sides will be found because the countries and economies are already woven so closely together.  Juncker will be on the sidelines within a half year.  

The Irish Prime Minister went to see Merkel last week to look for a special treatment because of having a landborder (NI) with the UK. She told him there would be no concessions for anyone. This is going to cause huge problems for NI as for instance, most of their agricultural produce (milk, beef, pigs) are exported into the Republic for processing and then reimported back into UK.  


Why do people not even blink now when both reading and printing this stuff?  

Maybe a "F**k You" note to Angela might get the message across that there'll be no EU police or EU Army here dictating where we put our 'hard borders' and where we choose to relax them, either in trade or people terms.  If that means Merkel (Queen of Europe) then tells us to "F**k off", then so be it.  I'll be fine with that.  Premium prices then into Europe for our prized cold-water fish.  All EU fishing boats out of Irish territorial water Wink
How come every time I write something political someone gets emotional?  And what is with Mrs. Merkel and all that f**king???  She seems a bit old and long in the tooth for my taste.  I prefer the young fitter types myself...........

Mate, everyone is jockeying for position at the moment.    No one has a clue what comes next because it hasn't happened before.  I am sure our borders will be fine.  Mrs. Merkel is taking a hard line because that is what she has to do at the moment.  I really don't think anything that anyone says at the moment can be taken as gospel.  Just words. Business still needs to be done.  And no one is going to let the French take the banking from UK.

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Post by bathmad on Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:56 pm

French would only cry about working weeks longer than 35 hours and go on strike anyway....

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Post by doctor_grey on Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:02 am

bathmad wrote:French would only cry about working weeks longer than 35 hours and go on strike anyway....
I think they are going on strike now to prepare for going on strike later. Besides it's just a week or so before usual holidays and a strike will get them in holiday mode.

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