England 45-man EPS

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Post by robbo277 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

Post updated for Eddie Jones' training squad.

From EnglandRugby.com


  • Final EPS to be announced on 30 September
  • Nathan Hughes included for first time


England Head Coach Eddie Jones has announced a provisional 45-man elite player squad (EPS) for England’s pre-season training camp in August.

The squad will meet at the Lensbury Hotel from 6-8 August and take part in training, planning meetings and individual reviews in preparation for the Old Mutual Wealth Series against South Africa, Fiji, Argentina and Australia later in the year.

Jones has named a number of uncapped players to attend the camp. Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers) and Nathan Hughes (Wasps) are included for the first time while Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) and Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) have all previously spent time with England.

Following their series win in South Africa with England Saxons, Dan Robson (Wasps), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks) and Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby) will join the camp, as will Joe Marchant (Harlequins) and Will Evans (Leicester Tigers), who were part of the England team who won the World Rugby U20 Championship in June.

MOST DOMINANT TEAM IN THE WORLD
England will announce a final 45-man EPS on 30 September for the Old Mutual Wealth Series starting against South Africa at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday 12 November.

“This camp sets the scene for November,” said Jones. “It’s important to catch-up with the players prior to the start of the season and continue to put our plans in place.

“We’ll use this time to reset and review each player’s goals so they’re clear on what is expected of them between now and when we meet up again in October. It also gives us an opportunity to meet and assess some new players and ensure they are familiar with the England setup.

“The long-term strategy for England is to develop a side who can be the most dominant team in world rugby, so we’ve chosen a number of new faces to attend this camp on the form they have shown recently or the potential we see in them.

“There will always be opportunities for anyone playing consistently well in the Premiership at the start of the season to force their way into the EPS - the door is always open. Naturally players not included in this pre-season camp will be disappointed, but consistent high-level performances can change this."

HUGE CHALLENGE
England sealed a 3-0 whitewash of Australia in June and are now the second-ranked team in world rugby, however, Jones is expecting a "huge challenge" from their next opponents at Twickenham - South Africa.

“England has not beaten South Africa since 2006 and we’ve lost our last five games against the Springboks at Twickenham," said Jones. "Not a single player who will attend the pre-season camp has played in a side that has ever beaten South Africa.

“While we acknowledge that we’re moving in the right direction we also recognise that defeat is never far away. It’s important the players all keep trying to improve and push themselves to reach new standards in their game. We cannot afford to have any complacency in our approach to this Test.”

45 man provisional EPS for England’s August training camp

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)

Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)

Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)

Jamie George (Saracens)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)

Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)

Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)

James Haskell (Wasps)

Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  

Nathan Hughes (Wasps)

Maro Itoje (Saracens)

George Kruis (Saracens)

Joe Launchbury (Wasps)

Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Joe Marler (Harlequins)

Matt Mullan (Wasps)

Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)

Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)

Danny Care (Harlequins)

Elliot Daly (Wasps)

Owen Farrell (Saracens)

George Ford (Bath Rugby)

Alex Goode (Saracens)

Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)

Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)

Joe Marchant (Harlequins)

Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)

Dan Robson (Wasps)

Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)

Joe Simpson (Wasps)

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)

Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)

Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Original post:
While the dust settles on the most successful trip down South for an England team since 2003, Eddie Jones will have to start thinking about naming his first EPS squad that is completely his.

You would assume the 23 from that second test would form the bedrock of the squad, but then what about the other 10 spots? There are big question marks over:

Joe Marler
Undisputed first choice under Lancaster and just about held off Mako Vunipola during the Six Nations, but he's been hauled in front of the disciplinary committee three times since March and made himself unavailable for selection. Mako Vunipola has played very well and probably has the starting spot for the first Autumn International, but do you stick with Mullan as back-up or do you bring back Marler, assuming he's available?

Teimana Harrison and the backrow
So Robshaw, Haskell, Vunipola and Clifford will all be in the EPS, but does Harrison come back from being subbed after 30 minutes? Beaumont is another option, as is Nathan Hughes now - but does he come straight into an EPS?

Centre options
Manu and Te'o were named in the initial squad for the Australia tour, with Burrell filling in for Manu. Burrell overtook Te'o and started the first test, but Burrell and the "Bosher" gameplan were both ditched after 30 minutes of the first test. Will Burrell recover? Did Jones not like what he saw from Te'o when he got into camp? And does Manu come back in? Do we use any of them?

We also have Slade, who toured and didn't get on the pitch or from left-field our best two under-20s were Mallinder and Marchant, do either of these come into consideration?

Saxons
The Saxons won their two "test" series in South Africa. Taylor, Attwood, Kvesic, Robson, Cipriani and Hill will all come into consideration.

Potential EPS
Forwards (19)
Hartley, George, Cowan-Dickie
Mako Vunipola, Cole, Marler, Hill, Mullan, Brookes
Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes
Haskell, Robshaw, Clifford, Hughes
Vunipola, Beaumont

Backs (14)
Youngs, Care, Robson
Ford, Farrell, Mallinder
Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly
Yarde, Nowell, Watson
Brown, Goode

Who would you pick in your EPS if you were Eddie Jones?


Last edited by robbo277 on Tue 02 Aug 2016, 6:31 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Updating post for new developments)

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 11:29 am

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Everyone slates Robshaw yet when they see what he actually does, he always seems to change their opinion. He's done it with Jones now aswell.

How he didn't go on the last Lions tour ill never know.

Gats saw Warbs and SOB as his 7s.

To be honest I thought at the time that he needed the rest. I think Kelly Brown was also hard done by.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 11:30 am

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Everyone slates Robshaw yet when they see what he actually does, he always seems to change their opinion. He's done it with Jones now aswell.

How he didn't go on the last Lions tour ill never know.

Gats saw Warbs and SOB as his 7s.

Yes he did....and ironically those two are a similar balance to the back row we had playing Oz...ie a powerhouse and a good alrounder workhorse.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 11:31 am

lostinwales wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Everyone slates Robshaw yet when they see what he actually does, he always seems to change their opinion. He's done it with Jones now aswell.

How he didn't go on the last Lions tour ill never know.

Gats saw Warbs and SOB as his 7s.

To be honest I thought at the time that he needed the rest. I think Kelly Brown was also hard done by.

Totally agree...he should have travelled.

But having said all that...we won the series.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 11:34 am

Tom Croft was very lucky to travel - but then I guess he offered a point of difference to all the other 6/7 contenders.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 11:40 am

LondonTiger wrote:Tom Croft was very lucky to travel - but then I guess he offered a point of difference to all the other 6/7 contenders.

And he was one of the real success stories from the SA tour.

He's always been such a 'marmite' kind of player but I think the injuries are pretty much the only thing standing between him and being listed amongst the England back row greats.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 11:46 am

lostinwales wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Tom Croft was very lucky to travel - but then I guess he offered a point of difference to all the other 6/7 contenders.

And he was one of the real success stories from the SA tour.

He's always been such a 'marmite' kind of player but I think the injuries are pretty much the only thing standing between him and being listed amongst the England back row wing greats.

Just fixed that one Wink

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Post by Poorfour on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 12:44 pm

The margin of victory was so small in that series - quite literally the loose piece of turf that Lealifano slipped on when taking that kick at the end of the first test. But for that, I think Australia - at their weakest point - would have won that game and with it the series. I am not sure the loss would have been enough to get Gatland to rejig the team as he did for the final test.

There are always players in a Lions year who are unlucky not to travel... what bothered me at the time and still does was Gatland's insistence on taking players he knew / who fit the Wales gameplan almost regardless of fitness and form.

I recently read Rhodri Davies' "Undefeated" about the 1974 tour of South Africa, and one of the really striking things was that a number of the pre-tour favourites lost out for the starting Test jumpers to less heralded players - the most striking being Merve the Swerve edging out Andy Ripley and the inside centre berth ending up with a young lad called McGeechan who looked too small to take on the Bok backline.

That, to me, is what the Lions should be about: finding ways to combine talents - sometimes with unexpected results - using the players available to you and not fitting them to a preset idea. In the 11 tour, that only happened in the final test - which was the best Lions performance since 2001 and possibly since 1997. We got away with it against Australia at low ebb. We won't against the All Blacks.
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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 12:57 pm

Very hard for a Lions team to develop organically any more. That 74 tour lasted 22 matches with the first game on 15th May and the last on 27th July. There were 7 matches before the first test, then two weeks and 3 matches between T1 &2 and T3&4 with 3 weeks and 5 matches between T2&3. A really long tour.

By contrast the 17 tour comprises just 10 matches. True with 6 matches before the first test it is not disimilar to th e74 preparations, but then it goes manic.

The other thing to bear in mind is that a coach like Gatland, and Henry before him, are really doing the job to enhance their resume and thus the result is the be all and end all. Someone like McGeechan is steeped in Lions lore and perhaps more willing to experiment.

Sadly the Lions is, in the modern pro game, now an anachronism that really only exists because it generates a huge level of income. Income created by flogging the elite players.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 1:44 pm

Yep. Said this before but from an England point of view I sort of resent the loss of a summer's development for England (plus the usual casualty list)

On the latter subject the presence of the eminent Dr. Robson or no I do wonder if the Lions brand leads to players health not being managed as well as they might be on a national tour. (The rarity of a Lions cap leading players to push themselves harder to play when in an ideal world they should be going in the other direction).

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 1:58 pm

Both Manu and Lenny came back to Tiger's completely crocked. Manu has of yet never really recovered.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 3:24 pm

With regards to Fly Half. what is happening with Freddie Burns...will we see him in an England shirt any time soon? Or has his days for England done, since the Ford and Farrell partnership?

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 3:59 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:With regards to Fly Half. what is happening with Freddie Burns...will we see him in an England shirt any time soon? Or has his days for England done, since the Ford and Farrell partnership?

His days are probably done tbh, barring injuries, however he was in excellent form last season after a late start due to a broken jaw, but the season finished early with his injury against Racing.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 4:15 pm

Surely Ford, Farrell and probably Slade will be the go to 10's?

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 4:45 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely Ford, Farrell and probably Slade will be the go to 10's?

If Slade makes it, because, you know, he isn't proven....

Still, the likes of Burns and Cipriani are decent backups if nothing else.

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 7:01 pm

I think although the Lions can be seen to stunt the development of a team, the potential for the players to learn something new and to learn to deal with huge amounts of pressure is second to none. You won't get more pressurised outside a World Cup game and remind me who had more Lions in the England vs Wales pool game?

I think for the players the opportunity to hear new voices and new ideas from another top quality set of coaches and other top quality set of team mates is going to be invaluable to a player's development. The tour is like no other, you have the hope of four nations riding on your shoulders and you know you won't get another chance for another 4 years, if at all.

I do think, however, that Gatland set the template to be successful and that is to pick the best home nation (and Wales were back to back Six Nations champions, as well as the team most familiar to Gatland) and then pick the outstanding individuals from the other nations to supplement this team.

If we were doing this and picked England as our start point, I wouldn't take any other 6 over Robshaw. The guy works all day long. However, if you look at the other home nations they all have a slightly different style of 6. Ireland use a carrier with Stander, Wales use Lydiate's chop tackles to allow Warburton to win turnovers and Scotland went through the Six Nations with two "fetchers", and would Robshaw be able to do any of these roles better than the incumbent? Or at least as well as and then offer more elsewhere? Possibly, possibly not.

If you were picking individuals first and then a gameplan to suit, Robshaw would be the first 6 on the plane for me. But if you decided from the outset you wanted more carriers or more fetchers in your back row, Robshaw might slip down the list slightly.

For example, if you wanted carrying, you might take Vunipola as your starting 6 with Stander as your back up to play with Warburton and Faletau, and then you'd have to consider Haskell and potentially Hughes as well from England alone before you got to Robshaw.

If you were looking at fetchers, you might have Vunipola and Faletau as your 8s and then go with Warburton, Tipuric, Hardie and Barclay and try different combinations in the warm up games. You could even consider someone like Armitage or Underhill as well.

So I don't think a player like Robshaw is a shoo-in for the plane, despite how well he's playing.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 06 Jul 2016, 9:46 pm

Yes. Its 'best suited for a style of play' rather than best player, although best is obviously subjective.

I wonder if Gatland would have picked the same players had Wales not beaten England?

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Post by doctor_grey on Thu 07 Jul 2016, 12:28 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely Ford, Farrell and probably Slade will be the go to 10's?
Andy Goode

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Post by Exiledinborders on Thu 07 Jul 2016, 8:33 am

majesticimperialman wrote:With regards to Fly Half. what is happening with Freddie Burns...will we see him in an England shirt any time soon? Or has his days for England done, since the Ford and Farrell partnership?
A talented player but flaky. He is great when things are going well but seems to lack resilience and is prone to periods of lack of form.

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Post by propdavid_london on Thu 07 Jul 2016, 9:16 am

See Ryan Lamb for flakey!

But I would also apply that to Cips too. For me Burns and Cips are probably tied and will likely both be in the Saxons (If EJ picks a true 2nd team and not a development squad).

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Post by broadlandboy on Thu 07 Jul 2016, 6:42 pm

Think Tigers have reduced Burn's flakiness but unfortunately timed injuries have curtailed international chances

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Post by doctor_grey on Fri 08 Jul 2016, 1:10 am

broadlandboy wrote:Think Tigers have reduced Burn's flakiness but unfortunately timed injuries have curtailed international chances
Agree. Leicester was always the best place for him. But, I do think his England chances are over. Too many decent candidates to jump over. Even if fit and firing.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 08 Jul 2016, 8:45 am

what I liked best about Burns was he took a long hard look at himself, then out of his own pocket paid for Paul Grayson to be a personal coach for 6 months, and now on an ad hoc basis. The consistency of his play improved vastly, ball stroking when kicking and decision making.

From a figure the Welford Road faithful were unsure of, he has become a real crowd favourite. Of course he is behind Ford and Farrell, and probably Cipriani - but as his displays in New Zealand showed two years ago he would be a decent stand in should injuries occur.

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Post by propdavid_london on Fri 08 Jul 2016, 11:56 am

I think that's a fair assessment LT.
Although, I think you mentioned it on the Bath page...Cips game has benefited from Stringer being there. Just as Ford was better when an experienced 9 assisted.
Lets see how Cips gets on at Wasps with Robson. We might find that Cips and Burns (when fit) will be a bit neck and neck - both possibly in Saxons squad.

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Post by propdavid_london on Fri 08 Jul 2016, 11:58 am

Wasn't aware that Burns had brought in Grayson - fair play to the lad. That's showing commitment to improving. If he can get consistency he is every bit as potent as Ford on a good day.

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Post by nlpnlp on Fri 08 Jul 2016, 2:02 pm

The problem with Cipriani is that he stills sees tackling as an optional part of the game - as evidenced by his displays in South Africa. If you want a 10 to get your back line going forward and a decent kicking game, then he is your man, but you have to accept and compensate for the tackling. There were times at Sale when he did seem to get the desire to make tackles - he is never going to be a Jonny Wilkinson type tackler - but with the move to Wasps, he seemed to lose that. it will be interesting to see how he goes with Wasps, as Dai Young is a no nonsense coach. however, I assume they will adapt the positional play when defending lineouts, etc to compensate for him.

Burns is a decent all round player and just needs an good injury free run to show what he can do.

I still think though that Slade has the all round game to make the 10 position his own - the kicking and defence of Farrell and the running of Ford - but as yet this is unproven at International level and it is going to be hard for him to get a chance in the current England side, without the coach really rating/trusting him.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 08 Jul 2016, 2:58 pm

Lets be honest George Ford is hardly going to win the James HAskell award for running into anything that moves is he. The Cipriani cant/wont tackle thing is a bit exageratted, and really an excuse to bash him rather than a genuine reason to overlook him if he were hands down the best actually doing fly half stuff.

The real problem with Cipriani is that he isn't one of the first two choice fly halves who each bring a very different set of skills to the table and who are pretty good at their jobs (ignoring Fords kicking and Farrells running) ...and right now forming the most succesful artnership England have had since they had a more succesful one.

As long as they are viable the argument over who Englands number 3 is isnt really a big deal, especially with Slade always being an option to provide cover for the 10,12 and 13 from the bench which in turn allows the 7/2 split.

If Ford was were kidnapped by aliens tomorrow I personaly wouldnt have a big issue with Cipriani stepping in and other places remaining the same. Moving Farrell to 10 and finding a new 12 would have a much bigger impact on the backline.

If Farrell goes away then England have a much bigger headache, and choice to trust Ford kicking in the tough Autumn games.

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Post by Poorfour on Fri 08 Jul 2016, 4:51 pm

Gooseberry, George Ford absolutely did win that award in the second test. Ford isn't going to stop rampaging forwards coming down his channel, but he put his body in the line and slowed them down enough that a second tackler could complete it. He made over 10 tackles in that game and I was repeatedly impressed by his defensive efforts.

Likewise Wade, who looked a completely different animal in defence in SA - but Cipriani didn't.

On that basis, I would have a big issue with Cipriani - on current form - slotting in in place of Ford. It would place too much strain on the defensive system because the opposition would know to attack that channel - which would keep the defence narrow and create space out wide.

I'd much rather see Slade and Farrell at 10/12, or even Farrell / Mallinder than a solution that has defensively weak players in it.
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Post by kingelderfield on Fri 08 Jul 2016, 10:47 pm

Can't believe all this bs about Cipriani's Saxon's tackling. I suggest you re watch the games and provide evidence to back up your falsehoods.

I guess reputation's stay with people.

The fact is Cipriani is a complex character that will always turn off those who are uncomfortable with and threatened by the extraordinary 'other'.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 09 Jul 2016, 1:31 am

Must admit, I don't recall a defensive horror show from Cipriani. Along with Dave Attwood, he was one of two players singled out for praise for their performances on tour by Saxons coach Ali Hepher.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/26228/eddie-jones-must-look-at-saxons-stars-danny-cipriani-and-dave-attwood/

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 09 Jul 2016, 11:28 pm

Ah look Cipriani is never going to get another chance. Pointless brining him up, and I'm sick of hearing his name to be honest.

We have other options.

And ford and Farrell are Jones chosen ones


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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 09 Jul 2016, 11:31 pm

Oh and Dave Attwood is done aswell.

Our lock stables are insane...and the kids coming through are ridiculous.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun 10 Jul 2016, 3:45 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Wasn't aware that Burns had brought in Grayson - fair play to the lad.  That's showing commitment to improving.  If he can get consistency he is every bit as potent as Ford on a good day.

He even got a standing ovation from the Welford Road crowd last season. Can't remember the last time that happened for a fly half and I'd have never thought it would happen with such a mecurial playmaker. He still needs to develop his game further if he wants to make it as an international but his consistency was markedly improved and that has largely been his downfall (along with injury).

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Post by yappysnap on Sun 10 Jul 2016, 8:49 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Oh and Dave Attwood is done aswell.

Our lock stables are insane...and the kids coming through are ridiculous.

Strange to think how poor the selection of players has been for England from about '04-'11 and suddenly we have potential quality coming out of our ears.almost every position has options,even our historic problem positions of 12 and 13.

There are a lot of guys who could have been good a few seasons back who are now on the scrap heap.

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Post by yappysnap on Sun 10 Jul 2016, 8:52 pm

Off the top of my head: Ashton, May, Sharples, Cips, Burns, Barrett, Twelvetrees, Wood, Morgan, Attwood, Fearns, Garvey, Wilson and probably a lot more!

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Post by kingelderfield on Sun 10 Jul 2016, 9:36 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah look Cipriani is never going to get another chance. Pointless brining him up, and I'm sick of hearing his name to be honest.

We have other options.

And ford and Farrell are Jones chosen ones


If CIPRIANI, that's right, CIPRIANI, is leading the Wasps line to victory, heading all comers to the premiership, and if form fitness should desert either of the incumbents, then I think you'll be hearing plenty more of the name CIPRIANI.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 11 Jul 2016, 8:08 am

It'll be tough for him to push for that place too strongly without an injury I would think now but if Wasps start on a flier you would imagine players like him, Robson, Wade would be pushed more to the forefront of Jones' thinking.

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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 11 Jul 2016, 9:05 am

Isnt Gopperth still going to be 1st choice at Wasps?

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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 11 Jul 2016, 9:09 am

So Cips will probably have to fight for the starting spot anyway - Or Dai Young will use him like he used Rudraigh Jackson! As a cover 10 and a 15.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 11 Jul 2016, 9:14 am

Could be covering 15 I suppose but he's the best 10 they have.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 11 Jul 2016, 1:08 pm

kingelderfield wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah look Cipriani is never going to get another chance. Pointless brining him up, and I'm sick of hearing his name to be honest.

We have other options.

And ford and Farrell are Jones chosen ones


If CIPRIANI, that's right, CIPRIANI, is leading the Wasps line to victory, heading all comers to the premiership, and if form fitness should desert either of the incumbents, then I think you'll be hearing plenty more of the name CIPRIANI.

I genuinely don't think that will help him.


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Post by beshocked on Mon 11 Jul 2016, 2:33 pm

kingelderfield that's a lot of ifs.

As propdavid london says Cipriani needs to get past Gopperth first. Then there's of course his defence which isn't great, his place kicking and temperament which aren't great.

Agree with Geordiefalcon, please no more talk of Attwood. He's way down the lock pecking order. Unless there's a significant lock crisis I doubt he'll feature for England again.

I still see H.Mallinder as the long term solution at 12.


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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 11 Jul 2016, 4:08 pm

It was me who mentioned Cipriani and Attwood, and the only reason I did so, is because Saxons coach Ali Hepher singled them out for praise.

England fans almost seem to have forgotten that injuries happen. Under the EPS agreement, coaches are pretty much obliged to fill gaps in the main squad from the Saxons. So long as Attwood and Cipriani are in the Saxons (which I think has to be named before the next season starts) then they have a shot.

I would dearly love all our new players to be injury-free but England lost so many players during the barren years after our World Cup win that it would be very optimistic to think we won't get hit again.


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Post by kingelderfield on Mon 11 Jul 2016, 6:33 pm

beshocked wrote:kingelderfield that's a lot of ifs.

As propdavid london says Cipriani needs to get past Gopperth first. Then there's of course his defence which isn't great, his place kicking and temperament which aren't great.

Agree with Geordiefalcon, please no more talk of Attwood. He's way down the lock pecking order. Unless there's a significant lock crisis I doubt he'll feature for England again.

I still see H.Mallinder as the long term solution at 12.


As propdavid london says Cipriani needs to get past Gopperth first. - This is correct, however it is my judgement that he will take Gopperth's place in the starting XV

Then there's of course his defence which isn't great, - this is very 20th century thinking, honestly check out his recent Saxon's performances and Sharks form for the past 2 seasons.

his place kicking and temperament which aren't great - yes there will always be the temperament issue, just as there is with Farrell and though nobody's kicking compares with OF, I think that he disproved a lot of doubters in south africa in June.

My view is that I want all all concerned; OF, GF, DC, FB et al, to hit top form and to provide the vital competition we need to combat the All Blacks.



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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 11 Jul 2016, 11:03 pm

[quote="kingelderfield"]
beshocked wrote:...As propdavid london says Cipriani needs to get past Gopperth first.
Not to get selected for the Saxons, he doesn't. Once he's in, then he'll be in contention even if he starts the season playing second fiddle to Gopperth at Wasps.

Who knows? Jones might drop Cipriani from consideration entirely. However, if the EPS is announced at the same time Lancaster used to do it, then we should see in three weeks time.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 8:11 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:
beshocked wrote:...As propdavid london says Cipriani needs to get past Gopperth first.
Not to get selected for the Saxons, he doesn't. Once he's in, then he'll be in contention even if he starts the season playing second fiddle to Gopperth at Wasps.

Who knows? Jones might drop Cipriani from consideration entirely. However, if the EPS is announced at the same time Lancaster used to do it, then we should see in three weeks time.

Farrell wasnt first choice FH for Saracens when he got the England gig
Flood went through periods of not being first choice at Tigers
Slade seems to be getting mooted as the 3rd choice FH but how much does he play there for his club? Does he need to get past Steenson?

That said though all Slade and Farrell were at least starters in most clubs games, albeit in different positions.
Burns is the only other vaguely viable option on the table for England right now and he has struggled to really nail down the satrting jersey at Tigers, although did step it up at the end of last season he wasnt considered for the Saxons tour who were happier to go with just one fly half, meaning theres only 4 in the extended EPS one of which is really a center and another of which is playing center.
That to me says Cipriani is reasonably well regarded and has a place in the pecking order.

Gopperth is getting toward the end of his career. There was a significant number of games he didnt start for Wasps for one reason or another last season, and that was without Cipriani on the bench. Whilst hes clearly been a good club level player a a signifdicant part of Wasps becoming a decent team again I dont see why hes suddenly been elevated to the status of untouchable godhead who Ciprianini would have to assisinate to get a game. The very fact that Wasps jizzed so much of their pocket money on paying for a potentialy troublesome player suggests that someone on the coaching staff rates him very highly and wants him there ...and expects him to play a significant number of games.


So England have two fly halves who pretty much have the main side sewn up between them.
They have one possible back up who is a fringe squad player and more likley to be seen as a center.
If one or the other dies in a freak Pokemon Go accident in the next few weeks where would England look for another option ... Its Ciprinai or Burns really, and Ciprinai is the one whos been ahead in the pecking order so far. To write him off as having no England future is premature.
I do suspect though that the senior EPS will just include Farrell, Ford and Slade as a back up with Cipriani in the extended 64

Jones is lucky in a way that he hasnt been hit by the kind of injuries that forced Johnon to look at his 4th choice players in many positions through his tenure, otherwise he might be having to call up Andy Goode as well.

It woudl be nice to see the next generation of wonder kid over hyped EQ fly halves starting to come through this season to add soem depth to the choices, or for Burns to really sort his life out and get back as a serious contender.
Apparently Rory Clegg still exists too, maybe one day he will come back to a proper league and live up to the hype.

Right now though Cipriani is still one of the top EQ fly halves and it seems pretty bonkers to suggest hes done when hes resurected inthe past from much worse situations than leading a succesful Saxons tour.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 8:39 am

Lozowski always looked good and underplayed at Wasps. Now he's with saracens I'd suggest he gets pushed to the heavens.

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Post by beshocked on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 10:31 am

Cipriani still has a lot to prove, personally I don't think he's got the mental capacity to succeed at international level.

He used to when he first came on the scene but then since an excellent game at 10 vs Ireland he's mostly flattered to deceive.

Being part of a strong Wasps team could reignite his international career but then again the pressure is on him to perform.

It's all mental for Cipriani IMO. Some sports people have talent but not the temperament. I feel that Cipriani fits that category.


Farrell has answered his critics, Ford has answered his, time for Cipriani to do the same.

Would probably help Cipriani if someone like Daly becomes the primary goal kicker for Wasps. I realise Daly is generally used for long range efforts but quite clearly it can help a 10 if another back takes the responsibility of goal kicking.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 12:09 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
Burns is the only other vaguely viable option on the table for England right now and he has struggled to really nail down the satrting jersey at Tigers, although did step it up at the end of last season he wasnt considered for the Saxons tour who were happier to go with just one fly half,

While not disagreeing with your overall post, Burns was injured against Racing in April and had surgery, so was not available for summer selection - whether under consideration or not.

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Post by propdavid_london on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 12:53 pm

They went with 1 fly half + Devoto to cover.

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Post by propdavid_london on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 1:01 pm

I personally thought that Cips and Attwood (who were mentioned by coaches for special praise) that they didn't have the best of tours.
Attwood especially in the 2nd match had a lot of errors, and it was my perception that he didn't carry much.
Cips, as others have mentioned was a bit of a revolving door. Aside from a few moments really didn't stand out.

I would expect both to remain in the Saxons - We haven't seen Burns play for a while now so I would be surprised to see him leapfrog anyone in the pecking order.
However, should he start the season in form and in front of Owen Williams - With a potentially 'hot' Tigers back line including JP Peterson, Matt Tooma, Manu and can get them moving then Burns could be included in the Christmas time shuffle of the EPS.

As for Attwood there are far too many quality locks infront of him and others that we haven't really seen in the Saxons yet - Barrow, Kitch, Slater, Mitch Lees etc. I have a feeling he was there mostly for experience.

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