England 45-man EPS

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Post by robbo277 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

Post updated for Eddie Jones' training squad.

From EnglandRugby.com


  • Final EPS to be announced on 30 September
  • Nathan Hughes included for first time


England Head Coach Eddie Jones has announced a provisional 45-man elite player squad (EPS) for England’s pre-season training camp in August.

The squad will meet at the Lensbury Hotel from 6-8 August and take part in training, planning meetings and individual reviews in preparation for the Old Mutual Wealth Series against South Africa, Fiji, Argentina and Australia later in the year.

Jones has named a number of uncapped players to attend the camp. Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers) and Nathan Hughes (Wasps) are included for the first time while Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) and Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) have all previously spent time with England.

Following their series win in South Africa with England Saxons, Dan Robson (Wasps), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks) and Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby) will join the camp, as will Joe Marchant (Harlequins) and Will Evans (Leicester Tigers), who were part of the England team who won the World Rugby U20 Championship in June.

MOST DOMINANT TEAM IN THE WORLD
England will announce a final 45-man EPS on 30 September for the Old Mutual Wealth Series starting against South Africa at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday 12 November.

“This camp sets the scene for November,” said Jones. “It’s important to catch-up with the players prior to the start of the season and continue to put our plans in place.

“We’ll use this time to reset and review each player’s goals so they’re clear on what is expected of them between now and when we meet up again in October. It also gives us an opportunity to meet and assess some new players and ensure they are familiar with the England setup.

“The long-term strategy for England is to develop a side who can be the most dominant team in world rugby, so we’ve chosen a number of new faces to attend this camp on the form they have shown recently or the potential we see in them.

“There will always be opportunities for anyone playing consistently well in the Premiership at the start of the season to force their way into the EPS - the door is always open. Naturally players not included in this pre-season camp will be disappointed, but consistent high-level performances can change this."

HUGE CHALLENGE
England sealed a 3-0 whitewash of Australia in June and are now the second-ranked team in world rugby, however, Jones is expecting a "huge challenge" from their next opponents at Twickenham - South Africa.

“England has not beaten South Africa since 2006 and we’ve lost our last five games against the Springboks at Twickenham," said Jones. "Not a single player who will attend the pre-season camp has played in a side that has ever beaten South Africa.

“While we acknowledge that we’re moving in the right direction we also recognise that defeat is never far away. It’s important the players all keep trying to improve and push themselves to reach new standards in their game. We cannot afford to have any complacency in our approach to this Test.”

45 man provisional EPS for England’s August training camp

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)

Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)

Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)

Jamie George (Saracens)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)

Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)

Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)

James Haskell (Wasps)

Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  

Nathan Hughes (Wasps)

Maro Itoje (Saracens)

George Kruis (Saracens)

Joe Launchbury (Wasps)

Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Joe Marler (Harlequins)

Matt Mullan (Wasps)

Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)

Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)

Danny Care (Harlequins)

Elliot Daly (Wasps)

Owen Farrell (Saracens)

George Ford (Bath Rugby)

Alex Goode (Saracens)

Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)

Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)

Joe Marchant (Harlequins)

Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)

Dan Robson (Wasps)

Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)

Joe Simpson (Wasps)

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)

Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)

Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Original post:
While the dust settles on the most successful trip down South for an England team since 2003, Eddie Jones will have to start thinking about naming his first EPS squad that is completely his.

You would assume the 23 from that second test would form the bedrock of the squad, but then what about the other 10 spots? There are big question marks over:

Joe Marler
Undisputed first choice under Lancaster and just about held off Mako Vunipola during the Six Nations, but he's been hauled in front of the disciplinary committee three times since March and made himself unavailable for selection. Mako Vunipola has played very well and probably has the starting spot for the first Autumn International, but do you stick with Mullan as back-up or do you bring back Marler, assuming he's available?

Teimana Harrison and the backrow
So Robshaw, Haskell, Vunipola and Clifford will all be in the EPS, but does Harrison come back from being subbed after 30 minutes? Beaumont is another option, as is Nathan Hughes now - but does he come straight into an EPS?

Centre options
Manu and Te'o were named in the initial squad for the Australia tour, with Burrell filling in for Manu. Burrell overtook Te'o and started the first test, but Burrell and the "Bosher" gameplan were both ditched after 30 minutes of the first test. Will Burrell recover? Did Jones not like what he saw from Te'o when he got into camp? And does Manu come back in? Do we use any of them?

We also have Slade, who toured and didn't get on the pitch or from left-field our best two under-20s were Mallinder and Marchant, do either of these come into consideration?

Saxons
The Saxons won their two "test" series in South Africa. Taylor, Attwood, Kvesic, Robson, Cipriani and Hill will all come into consideration.

Potential EPS
Forwards (19)
Hartley, George, Cowan-Dickie
Mako Vunipola, Cole, Marler, Hill, Mullan, Brookes
Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes
Haskell, Robshaw, Clifford, Hughes
Vunipola, Beaumont

Backs (14)
Youngs, Care, Robson
Ford, Farrell, Mallinder
Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly
Yarde, Nowell, Watson
Brown, Goode

Who would you pick in your EPS if you were Eddie Jones?


Last edited by robbo277 on Tue 02 Aug 2016, 6:31 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Updating post for new developments)

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Post by propdavid_london on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 11:08 am

T.Youngs was always an excellent ball carrier. That's what I thought h brought to the side.
At a time where we didn't have many options - Wood wasn't a carrier and Robshaws high work rate didn't include bruising runs.
Admittedly there were other flaws to his game, but that was the main thing that I thought he brought to England.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 11:31 am

propdavid_london wrote:T.Youngs was always an excellent ball carrier.  That's what I thought h brought to the side.  
At a time where we didn't have many options - Wood wasn't a carrier and Robshaws high work rate didn't include bruising runs.  
Admittedly there were other flaws to his game, but that was the main thing that I thought he brought to England.  

He is also very good in rucks. Always enjoyed seeing how quick he could accelerate when he did get the ball, and you could see the center he was initially when in space. It just didn't happen that often. He's not a better option than George or Hartley. At the moment he might be a better option than LCD who seems to have some similar problems. I don't know who is next in line, but no doubt someone will appear over the season.

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Post by propdavid_london on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 11:48 am

Yup, agree with that Lost- I was impressed with Tommy Taylor on Saxons tour and was a bit surprised with his exclusion. We can see how he gets on at Wasps.
T.Youngs has been out for a while so we don't really know how he will start the new season - LCD was also coming back from injury wasn't he?
I've always liked the 3 Quins hookers - although I don't think any of them would step up to full test level. Ward is a bit old to break through, Grey and Buchannan have both flirted with Saxons but not had the step up.

Who else is in the pipeline? Jack Walker (Bath) was the U20s Hooker with Jack Singleton (Worcester) - not sure how much senior rugby both have had yet.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 11:52 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
Poorfour wrote:...One player let down his squad mates by withdrawing, the other withdrew to avoid letting them down. I would imagine the coaches would see a difference...
Mark McCall explained that Eddie Jones cleared Chris Ashton's decision not to tour, just as he had Joe Marler's.

That doesn't necessarily mean he regarded it in the same light, though, as possibly evidenced by who is in the 45 and who isn't.

Mako is pretty much confirmed as the starting loosehead,  I would have thought. Marler is competing with Mullan and General for the other slot. But I would have thought that if he's back to full strength he offers more than either.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 11:59 am

lostinwales wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:T.Youngs was always an excellent ball carrier.  That's what I thought h brought to the side.  
At a time where we didn't have many options - Wood wasn't a carrier and Robshaws high work rate didn't include bruising runs.  
Admittedly there were other flaws to his game, but that was the main thing that I thought he brought to England.  

He is also very good in rucks. Always enjoyed seeing how quick he could accelerate when he did get the ball, and you could see the center he was initially when in space. It just didn't happen that often. He's not a better option than George or Hartley. At the moment he might be a better option than LCD who seems to have some similar problems. I don't know who is next in line, but no doubt someone will appear over the season.

I thought it was Tommy Taylor?

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 12:33 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Yup, agree with that Lost- I was impressed with Tommy Taylor on Saxons tour and was a bit surprised with his exclusion. We can see how he gets on at Wasps.
T.Youngs has been out for a while so we don't really know how he will start the new season - LCD was also coming back from injury wasn't he?
I've always liked the 3 Quins hookers - although I don't think any of them would step up to full test level. Ward is a bit old to break through, Grey and Buchannan have both flirted with Saxons but not had the step up.

Who else is in the pipeline? Jack Walker (Bath) was the U20s Hooker with Jack Singleton (Worcester) - not sure how much senior rugby both have had yet.

There ia always Mikey Haywood, I was massively surprised when he didn't get a Saxons call up. Most Saints supporters would say there is not thay much difference between him and Hartley.

He is a mile ahead of Youngs, offers the same presence in the loose and broken play, plus he can hit his man in the lineout, hook the ball and actually scrummage. The Saints scrum does not get much weaker when Hartley is away/injured/banned which has been quite a lot of the last 2 seasons.

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Post by propdavid_london on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 12:58 pm

That's true, I had forgotten about Haywood - he did a sterling job of covering for Hartley when he was out.
I am surprised that Waller hasn't had a call up either!

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Post by Cyril on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 1:05 pm

Is Webber completely out the picture? His form at Bath dropped off pretty badly.

He's at Sale now, isn't he?

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Post by propdavid_london on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 1:06 pm

I don't think Webber will be back in contention - too many younger and more promising players available at the moment.

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Post by Welly on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 1:20 pm

Waller offers nothing other than scrummaging TBH, he is like a LH Wilson.

RE Heywood would also say he is unlucky to be left out.

BUT can someone tell me what exactly Cowan-Dickie offers? IMO Taylor and Heywood should be ahead of him i can understand Youngs being in there due to experience kind of.

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Post by Cyril on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 1:25 pm

propdavid_london wrote:I don't think Webber will be back in contention - too many younger and more promising players available at the moment.  
I'd tend to agree. There was a stage a few years ago when I thought he looked the real deal and a better option than Hartley. When he ended up behind Batty in the Bath pecking order that was probably it for him.

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Post by propdavid_london on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 1:27 pm

From what I saw of LCD was pretty much all the necessary qualities of a hooker - minus the accuracy of darts.
He is a dynamic ball carrier, can scrum well with little drop off and likes a bit of niggle. Something that EJ I think is trying to encourage.
Taylor and Heywood may well overtake LCD but at the moment he has the most potential of those mentioned.
I left out George as I feel we are really starting to see the potential from him.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 1:28 pm

I rate Waller highly, does the basics very well. Great lifter, and very strong on the deck.

LCD is like a slightly better version of Youngs which isn't really saying much, I'd agree with the majority that Taylor or Haywood should be 3rd choice.

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 2:05 pm

propdavid_london wrote:T.Youngs was always an excellent ball carrier.  That's what I thought h brought to the side.  
At a time where we didn't have many options - Wood wasn't a carrier and Robshaws high work rate didn't include bruising runs.  
Admittedly there were other flaws to his game, but that was the main thing that I thought he brought to England.  

Does this group of coaches just back their ability to teach Youngs the basics? Have a look at him, give him some pointers in the training camp and then send him back to the club. If he works on these aspects at his club then he could come into the squad.

Was Eddie Jones a hooker, or did I make that up?

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 2:21 pm

robbo277 wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:T.Youngs was always an excellent ball carrier.  That's what I thought h brought to the side.  
At a time where we didn't have many options - Wood wasn't a carrier and Robshaws high work rate didn't include bruising runs.  
Admittedly there were other flaws to his game, but that was the main thing that I thought he brought to England.  

Does this group of coaches just back their ability to teach Youngs the basics? Have a look at him, give him some pointers in the training camp and then send him back to the club. If he works on these aspects at his club then he could come into the squad.

Was Eddie Jones a hooker, or did I make that up?

A very small hooker...

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Post by beshocked on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 2:23 pm

lostinwales you are right, we agree about Manu.

robbo277 Unfortunately like Lee Mears, Tom Youngs is just one of those hookers who is too small for international level IMO.

I am not convinced by Haywood myself, still haven't seen anything to suggest he'll make it to international level but if he has a good season for Saints perhaps.

Sgt Pooly I used to rate Waller but I think he needs a big season for Saints.

The Saints pack on paper looks good and adding a powerhouse at 8 like Picamoles should help the England Saints players.

The loss of Manoa was a big blow.

If you look at sides like Sarries,Exeter and Wasps and indeed England - a lot of momentum is generated by the no 8.

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Post by propdavid_london on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 4:32 pm

Lost - wasn't it Tigers he had a few appearances for?

Besocked, you are right there is a lot of importance placed on an No.8 that can give you Go-Forward.
Billy V is coming into his own in that area - huge performances for club and country.

You only have to look at when England played a whole 6N with Tom wood at No.8 to see how bad it can be when you don't have a specialist there.

I am wondering how Quins will do without the nouse of Easter at the back of the scrum - will be good to see if Clifford steps up there.
But none of their options are the big ball carriers of the clubs that you mentioned above.

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Post by yappysnap on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 5:30 pm

IMO Clifford isn't an 8 yet, he just doesn't have the carrying ability at the moment. He'll make a good 6/7 but can't carry through tackles like the top 8's, he is young though and has a long time to get bigger and better.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 5:56 pm

I forgot about Webber. He is an very powerful tackler when in form.  That would appeal to Jones.

And don't forget the Diamond effect. He seems to have the ability to rejuvenate players. Webber could very well come back into form and contention.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 6:01 pm

Re Haywood one of my saints pals seemed to suggest he was a top premiership hooker bit he wasn't sure he has the same impact at international level that say Hartley can.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 6:03 pm

So much of this really comes down to personal preference. The way I see it we basically have shed loads of really good options some of which some will hate for x, y and z reasons but in reality would perform pretty well for England. As we saw with Lancaster eventually turning back to a (still) quality Nick Easter it may look foolish to discount someone completely when you never know what is round the corner.

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Post by Welly on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 6:30 pm

will be interesting to see McGuigan develop, only 23.

I suspect he will be second choice mainly for tigers this season, ahead of Thacker but behind Youngs and i reckon that in the next couple of season if he keeps his head down and progresses he will be our starting 2.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 7:46 pm

I really can't see Mcguigan making that level Welly. He'll be a good prem player no more.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 8:17 pm

No doubt he'll get past Youngs soon enough. England might be a stretch but I think he's better than LCD personally.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 9:08 pm

Welly wrote: will be interesting to see McGuigan develop, only 23.

I suspect he will be second choice mainly for tigers this season, ahead of Thacker but behind Youngs and i reckon that in the next couple of season if he keeps his head down and progresses he will be our starting 2.

I'd like to think McGuigan can come through and really dominate at hooker. Not sure it'll be this season though. When I saw him last season his lineout work was really poor, he struggled to hit the front at times. He his big, mobile, good hands and can scrummage well which stands him in good stead. I wouldn't write off wee Harry who may not make international level under Jones but was fantastic last season. He's another flanker around the park and his darts are right up there with the best in the country plus he has that ability to create something from nothing which isn't what you expect from a hooker. Be interesting to see who makes it as understudy to Youngs who is always Mr Consistent (just don't ask him to throw to the tail).

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Post by kingelderfield on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 9:21 pm

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's fantastically optimistic for the game, club and country, in this nation of ours, and so want to say here and now that we'll go on and on and have every real chance to win the cup in Japan - but I won't because apart from being arrogant folly at this distance, if you think about it we really couldn't have a better first game out than against the Africans 12th November.

It'll be another tremendous challenge for our developing side, especially post a very intriguing RC - what a game to look forward to.

Here's to one and all for an amazing 17/18 season Ale OK

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Post by Poorfour on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 9:25 pm

yappysnap wrote:IMO Clifford isn't an 8 yet, he just doesn't have the carrying ability at the moment. He'll make a good 6/7 but can't carry through tackles like the top  8's, he is young though and has a long time to get bigger and better.

I disagree with that. Clifford isn't Billy V, but it's wrong to assume that all 8s have to be like that. He had a step, acceleration and handling that puts a lot of backs to shame. That challenges defences in different ways to most 8s. With hard carrying 8s, the defenders know what's going to happen and they just have to commit and hope to hang on. With Clifford they can't commit early because if they do he will just go round them or cut them out with a pass. I'm pretty sure that's why Eddie likes to have him on the bench - because he forces tired defenders to think harder later in the game.

What he doesn't yet have is Easter's game management and ability to take control of the pace of a game. He will need that to be a top class 8. With Easter's retirement I suspect he will be Quins' normal starting 8, though with stiff competition from Chisholm (who toured with the Saxons but didn't play), Luamanu (looking much fitter this season) and the new signing whose name I can't yet spell. That should tell pretty quickly whether he can learn to run a game.
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Post by king_carlos on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 12:32 am

1.Mako, Marler, Mullan, Genge
2.Hartley, George, LCD, Youngs
3.Cole, Hill, Sinckler
4.Itoje, Launchbury, Ewels
5.Kruis, Lawes
6.Robshaw, Clifford, Williams
7.Haskell, Harrison, Evans
8.Vunipola, Beaumont, Hughes

9.Youngs, Care, Robson, Simpson
10.Ford, Slade

11.Nowell, Yarde, May
12.Farrell, Tuilagi, Te'o
13.Joseph, Daly, Marchant
14.Watson, Rokoduguni
15.Brown, Goode, Haley

Listing the squad by position like that a couple of things jumped out at me.

- The preference of 3 THs rather than 4 in a 45 man squad is another big kick up Brookes arse.

- Joe Marchant as a 3rd outside centre behind Joseph and Daly looks like a clear focus on a particular type of player that Jones wants a 13. Quick, nimble with the acceleration for an outside break and the basic distribution skills to work seamlessly with their back three almost as an extra winger when needed out wide.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 5:08 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Welly wrote: will be interesting to see McGuigan develop, only 23.

I suspect he will be second choice mainly for tigers this season, ahead of Thacker but behind Youngs and i reckon that in the next couple of season if he keeps his head down and progresses he will be our starting 2.

I'd like to think McGuigan can come through and really dominate at hooker. Not sure it'll be this season though. When I saw him last season his lineout work was really poor, he struggled to hit the front at times. He his big, mobile, good hands and can scrummage well which stands him in good stead. I wouldn't write off wee Harry who may not make international level under Jones but was fantastic last season. He's another flanker around the park and his darts are right up there with the best in the country plus he has that ability to create something from nothing which isn't what you expect from a hooker. Be interesting to see who makes it as understudy to Youngs who is always Mr Consistent  (just don't ask him to throw to the tail).

You can't have seen him much towards the end of the season as he was very good in this department. He missed the odd one a game but was generally on the ball, usually to Robinson. Having the dreadful Youngs as your starter for the last few years you'll be used to a bad darts, McGuigan can improve without question.

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Post by beshocked on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 9:50 am

propdavid london Easter has indeed big a huge asset for Quins but it's good for Quins to move on from Easter. I think Easter lasted so long

king carlos when looking at the options in that format the squad looks more promising.

Especially when considering that the likes of Simpson,T.Youngs and Teo are unlikely to be in the 23 in the AIs.

LH,hooker lock and no 8 in particular look well stocked.


12 and wing look like weaknesses IMO. 7 is an area that with Haskell injured is still a question mark.

Poorfour not every no 8 needs to be a Billy but even when you know what's coming he's hard to stop and by focussing on him you make space for others.

no 7 & 1/2 doesn't always come down to personal preference. There aren't shed loads of good options in all positions as you put it who would do well for England.

Some yes but not all. Webber is not a top class hooker and I doubt he will ever be, Webber does have staunch supporters like yourself though.

Sadly not every player is good enough for international level and not every player excels. It's important to identify the best and give them the opportunities.

E.g. Mallinder whose missed out of the 45. To be honest I think most on here would agree Mallinder should be in the 45.

It is wrong to ignore foolish decisions just because the overall squad looks good.

As for your Easter comment, Easter was poor in the RWC. As soon as Billy got injured, England were brutally exposed at no 8 as having a lack of depth.

With Hughes coming in there should be less reliance on Billy now.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 9:54 am

"Sadly not every player is good enough for international level and not every player excels. It's important to identify the best and give them the opportunities."

Ala Goode....

A replacement FB must be a priority for EJ I feel.

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Post by beshocked on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 10:08 am

Sgt Pooly tell me who are the world class alternatives to Goode? There's isn't a full back who was in better form last season.

Whether you like Goode or not he was the AP player of the season. He's one of the best full backs in England in the last few years, I would agree he hasn't excelled at international level but then again Lancaster poorly utilised him IMO.

He's also got a great rugby brain, need to use that brain. Just as those with brawn and athleticism need to be given straightforward instructions to get the best of them, Goode's strengths in particular playmaking must be utilised.

It's bleeding obvious - if you're going to pick a player then play to his strengths.

You might well say Watson but I'd rather he stays on the wing as wing is an area that options are hardly teeming with top class individuals. Now I know many of you think Yarde and May are exciting top class wingers but I am still unconvinced, jury is still out.


Mallinder should be in the squad and Teo shouldn't.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 10:12 am

You've just went against your initial point.

Goode has proven time and time again he's not good enough.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 10:12 am

beshocked wrote:E.g. Mallinder whose missed out of the 45. To be honest I think most on here would agree Mallinder should be in the 45.


I agree, but its also this which makes me think this is not a set in stone squad until October - certainly for the fringe players / newcomers. The core of the squad is there...but the new kids or players responding well may change.

He'll have a few months before October to assess those players and bring in the form ones...like Mallinder if hes showing well.

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 10:16 am

beshocked wrote:...

As for your Easter comment, Easter was poor in the RWC. As soon as Billy got injured, England were brutally exposed at no 8 as having a lack of depth.

...

Oh FFS. He played 20 minutes vs Australia in a horrible game then put in a MotM performance in his last game in the dead useless waste of time friendly game against Uruguay. Ben Morgan was the guy who under performed but then he probably shouldn't have been there in the first place

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 10:18 am

Worth pointing out that from the Ospreys thread in the club section that the other great hope for the future (Underhill) has apparently gone under the knife for a shoulder injury he got in training and will be out for 4 months anyway.

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Post by beshocked on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 10:30 am

Sgt Pooly he was good enough against the ABs, he was good enough against Ireland in 2013 I believe. Goode is one of the best FBs available.

As I said before there aren't exactly other 15s showing great form.

lostinwales okay I concede I am overly harsh on Easter, he did well vs Uruguay..... We needed Easter to perform well vs the Aussies too though. Morgan was poor agreed.

Geordiefalcon I hope so.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 10:35 am

It's 2016 Beshocked.......

So basically, if a player has proved he's not good enough on the Int stage he shouldn't be picked, unless he plays for Saracens......then it's ok.

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Post by beshocked on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 11:04 am

Sgt Pooly that's not true.

Goode still deserves another chance, just as you believe May deserves another. The difference is that at FB there are no clear alternatives to Goode bar Brown. Goode was in great form last season. At wing there are numerous people who could replace May's spot in the 45.

You do not hear me asking for a recall for Wigglesworth or Barritt even though I think both are clearly better than Simpson and Teo respectively. It's because I don't think Barritt and Wigglesworth warrant it. I don't think they deserve another chance currently.

The only Saracens players I think are unlucky are Tompkins and Ashton but I can understand why both were left out.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 11:05 am

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly he was good enough against the ABs, he was good enough against Ireland in 2013 I believe. Goode is one of the best FBs available.

As I said before there aren't exactly other 15s showing great form.

lostinwales okay I concede I am overly harsh on Easter, he did well vs Uruguay..... We needed Easter to perform well vs the Aussies too though. Morgan was poor agreed.

Geordiefalcon I hope so.

Simon Hammersley Whistle Very Happy

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 11:18 am

But you've also suggested that we identify a player and develop him??

There's options out there in Haley, Watson, Nowell etc. Goode has proved time and time again that he's simply not good enough. You can't be that weak in the tackle and that slow and play Int rugby.

I agree with you that once a player has proved he's not good enough, there's no point carrying on with him i.e. 36, Goode, Youngs...

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Post by beshocked on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 11:34 am

The options you suggest are poor IMO Haley has the most to prove of the lot. Needs to prove himself at club level first let alone international level.

England do not yet have the luxury of experimenting with Nowell or Watson at full back as the wings options aren't strong enough yet.

Would much rather Watson in particular focused on being a winger. Nowell needs to keep his form up.


And yet you don't add May to that list....

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 11:39 am

I don't see May as a full back. He's an excellent winger who's improved steadily at Int level and would be my starting left winger.

We don't know if Watson or Nowell are good full backs as they've not played there for England, its called development.

You're arguments just don't stand up, yet again. You cite that players should not be persevered with if proven not good enough, but defend Goode's inclusion.

You constantly slate May, yet he's played much better at Int level than Goode ever has or ever will.

At least stand by your convictions one way or another rather than jumping around from point to point to back your beloved Sarries boys.

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Post by beshocked on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 11:57 am

I constantly slate May because he's not played well at international consistently, he's done a handful of good things in his 19 caps. He certainly hasn't done better than Goode.

May gets picked when he's not playing well, he gets picked when he's injured - basically he gets picked when he doesn't deserve to be. He got picked in the RWC, when he didn't deserve it. He's picked now in the 45 when he shouldn't really be.

Goode hasn't played well at international level consistently either but he's been one of the best FBs in england in the last few years. Neither watson or Nowell have performed better at 15.

May in constrast has got into the England squad ahead of players in better form, no not just Ashton. Wade obviously too. I'd even pick Lewington ahead of May.

We don't know if Watson or Nowell are good FBs but why not carry on utilising them on the wing?

May is taking the place of better players, Goode is not (because they aren't any better FBs waiting to take his place).

Watson and Nowell might well turn out to be better 15s than Goode then surely they should play at 15 for their clubs, challenge for the 15 shirt instead of the wings, prove themselves at 15.

For what it's worth I think Goode is in last chance saloon but warrants another based on his strong form.

May has no form to fall back on because he's injured.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 12:01 pm

May has played well at Int level, you're alone on that one.

Goode has not played well, at least not for 2 years. In fact he's done the opposite, he's played badly and been exposed for his lack of pace and power.......he's not good enough.

Your arguments yet again, do not stand up.

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Post by beshocked on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 12:15 pm

Of course people thought 36 and Webber were great players too.... we know how that worked out.... Thought that Lancaster picked the right players in the RWC too......

Doing well in training doesn't mean a player has played well at international level. Seems to be the May logic. World class in training.... OK

Defensively poor, headless chicken running sideways, failing to score with a try line beckoning, poor finisher.

34% try strike rate is international class these days?  I must be alone to see the glaringly obvious poor finishing and defending then.

One blinkered fan still thinks Lancaster was a great coach.

Just putting May's strike rate in perspective - it's by far the worst of the England wingers.

Nowell's is 50% Watson's 50% I think Yarde's is over 50%. Ashton's is marginally under 50%

Wade doesn't really count but in matches like Saxons, Barbarians that he's played in he's scored a bucket load.

May is overrated, simple as that. He's not strong defensively, his finishing is the worst. The reason why May is so highly rated is simple - it's because he's fast.


Goode isn't overrated, we all know Goode's weaknesses that he needs to work on. May's weaknesses in contrast are ignored.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 1:07 pm

I wouldn't say May was defensively poor. There was one tackle which I think everyone seems to focus on. Bar that, I think he's been sound. Certainly no worse than any other wingers....

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 1:26 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I wouldn't say May was defensively poor. There was one tackle which I think everyone seems to focus on. Bar that, I think he's been sound. Certainly no worse than any other wingers....

I think its utterly pointless arguing with BS over May, and I think we have been saying exactly the same things about Goode forever.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 1:48 pm

It's basically BS's opinion against the rest of the board....

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Post by king_carlos on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 2:05 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I wouldn't say May was defensively poor. There was one tackle which I think everyone seems to focus on. Bar that, I think he's been sound. Certainly no worse than any other wingers....

Nowell - Great positioning and tackling.
Watson - Good positioning. Used to be a terrible tackler, improving but still misses front on tackles.
Yarde - Poor positioning and not a great tackler for a guy with his power. Improved defensively last season but that wasn't hard after his first season at Quins.
Roko - Powerful tackler, often rushes up unnecessarily but otherwise good positionally.
May - Alright positioning and tackling, not good in either but not as bad as others.
Ashton - Has improved positionally and as a tackler at Sarries. He is still poor at both though and on the rare occasions that Sarries excellent defense leaves their wings exposed he looks like a rabbit in headlights still.
Wade - Neither tackling or positional play are good, but have improved as with others. Personally I'd argue his tackling is no worse than Watson, Yarde or Ashton, and his positioning no worse than Yarde or Ashton but others will disagree when it comes to Wade.

Basically, Nowell exempt, arguing about our wingers defensive play is like fighting over an empty crisp packet and broken condom.

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