The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

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Post by Electric Demon on Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:17 pm

It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.


Last edited by Cassius Zhi on Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Changes "intelligence" to "experts" as that was very poor choice of words)

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Post by Rowley on Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:17 pm

What is really depressing is the sheer lack of accountability or expectation for our politicians now. As Hero has said the £350m NHS pledge is a lie. not a half truth or a misunderstanding, but a lie. Telling people something you know not to be true is pretty much the dictionary definition of a lie. A lie repeated countless times in the media, a lie that represented the cornerstone of the leave campaign, hell a lie painted on the side of a big red bus.

This is not a lie told by people too stupid to know they were wrong, but by some of the most senior politicians in this country, men with teams of advisors and analysts, men of education and experience, men who have knowingly and consciously chose to lie to the people they are paid to represent over one of the most crucial decisions about their country and its future those people will ever make.

That is a pretty serious thing and how is it greeted? with indifference, with claims that the other side probably lied about some stuff as well, with a collective shrug of the shoulders. Those that have happily and repeatedly told this lie should be held to account, they should be chased out of office. As it stands one of them will almost certainly be awarded the leadership of this country on the back of telling this lie. Absolutely staggering when you think about it.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:20 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Doesn't say much for the standard of education in England and Wales then.

It's a nonsense anyway. To suggest that those with less academic qualification can't think for themselves is absolute horse dung. It was the responsibility of Government to ensure the electorate was adequately informed. It failed.

Absolutely agree. Can sometimes take a bit more effort to persuade 'those with less academic qualifications' to actually think but they certainly can.

It can take even more effort to inform those with more academic qualifications that they may actually be wrong about something. The arrogance is astounding, especially from the younger generations thinking they know best because they hold an A-level in Economics.

To me this actually screams of a huge problem with the education system and younger generations. Another important thing not to underestimate would be peer pressure. Very few young people will be brave enough to think for themselves amidst the cries of racist/xenophobe/bigot etc. Original thought is often punished when it doesn't fit the norm.

Both sides will have sheep who follow the influential voices. Let us not be so prejudiced to assume this is something that belongs solely to the "uneducated".

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Post by Rowley on Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:21 pm

Ent wrote:
Cassius Zhi wrote:Of course people have to take responsibility for their own decisions.

They find videos of cats doing cute things easily enough

Finding information is the exact same process


I want people to provide me with videos of cats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jyi5F2W87ZQ

There you go, some dogs in there as well. I over-deliver.

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Post by Electric Demon on Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:26 pm

Rowley wrote:What is really depressing is the sheer lack of accountability or expectation for our politicians now. As Hero has said the £350m NHS pledge is a lie. not a half truth or a misunderstanding, but a lie. Telling people something you know not to be true is pretty much the dictionary definition of a lie.  A lie repeated countless times in the media, a lie that represented the cornerstone of the leave campaign, hell a lie painted on the side of a big red bus.

This is not a lie told by people too stupid to know they were wrong, but by some of the most senior politicians in this country, men with teams of advisors and analysts, men of education and experience, men who have knowingly and consciously chose to lie to the people they are paid to represent over one of the most crucial decisions about their country and its future those people will ever make.

That is a pretty serious thing and how is it greeted? with indifference, with claims that the other side probably lied about some stuff as well, with a collective shrug of the shoulders. Those that have happily and repeatedly told this lie should be held to account, they should be chased out of office. As it stands one of them will almost certainly be awarded the leadership of this country on the back of telling this lie. Absolutely staggering when you think about it.

They shouldn't have been allowed to make "pledges" because they weren't parties standing for government. They were not applying for a mandate from the people. The people were voting "in" or "out" not for "Remain" or "Vote Leave". It is with absolute certainty that no-one could make a pledge that they even had the power to carry out, even with the best intentions. So there should be rules against "pledges" in the future.

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Post by Alex_Germany on Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:53 pm

Lowlandbrit wrote:
GSC wrote:Question has to be asked whether the EU would be interested in an Independent Scotland as a member.
Probably, but under what terms? Would Scotland be prepared to join the Euro? Schengen? And how does the EU budget deal with the loss of a net contributor?

If Scotland wants to join the EU, they won't have to adopt the Euro or Schengen. They might however have to adopt their own currency.

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Post by Yadsendew on Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:55 pm

Rowley wrote:What is really depressing is the sheer lack of accountability or expectation for our politicians now. As Hero has said the £350m NHS pledge is a lie. not a half truth or a misunderstanding, but a lie. Telling people something you know not to be true is pretty much the dictionary definition of a lie.  A lie repeated countless times in the media, a lie that represented the cornerstone of the leave campaign, hell a lie painted on the side of a big red bus.

This is not a lie told by people too stupid to know they were wrong, but by some of the most senior politicians in this country, men with teams of advisors and analysts, men of education and experience, men who have knowingly and consciously chose to lie to the people they are paid to represent over one of the most crucial decisions about their country and its future those people will ever make.

That is a pretty serious thing and how is it greeted? with indifference, with claims that the other side probably lied about some stuff as well, with a collective shrug of the shoulders. Those that have happily and repeatedly told this lie should be held to account, they should be chased out of office. As it stands one of them will almost certainly be awarded the leadership of this country on the back of telling this lie. Absolutely staggering when you think about it.

Completely agree. It's called misleading the public and Mr Farage decided to get this 'little' faux pass out of the way very quickly as if no one would notice  Whistle   "I never said that" he stated when asked and you never denied it either did you would be my response.

Next to the immigration issue, this was the biggest banging on point the leave campaigners focused on. I wonder what the consequence of this duff information will be when it really comes under scrutiny. Neither Boris nor Nigel will ever be trusted by about 49% percent of the electorate ever again. Not sure about the rest though!

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Post by Alex_Germany on Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:55 pm

lostinwales wrote:
catchweight wrote:Because the Leave campaign was "sick of experts".

And the remain campaign was useless and pushing half truths of their own. Reminds me too much of the 'prophets' scene in Life of Brian.

Nobody talked with authority. It is unbelievable the amount of information that has come out in the last 2 days compared to the last 2 months. Why wasn't remain pushing Michael Dougan to the front at every opportunity?

Really - which lies have the Remain camp told?

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Post by Hero on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:01 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Hero wrote:Remain did state throughout the Leave pledges and propaganda were lies, watch Khan and Davidson pull apart BoJo for evidence.
The problem being is the 52% still believed the lies.

The thing is they did no such thing, Sadiq Khan just reeled off catchphrase after catchphrase and his 'thank you' crap will have antagonised a lot of voters. Davidson did a fair job during the great debate but both sides are guilty of lying so you choose which lies to believe.

So the bit where Khan waved the Leave pamphlet at BoJo and categorically denied that Turkey would be joining the EU whilst it showed it on the leaflet not evidence of this?

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:07 pm

Hero wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Hero wrote:Remain did state throughout the Leave pledges and propaganda were lies, watch Khan and Davidson pull apart BoJo for evidence.
The problem being is the 52% still believed the lies.

The thing is they did no such thing, Sadiq Khan just reeled off catchphrase after catchphrase and his 'thank you' crap will have antagonised a lot of voters. Davidson did a fair job during the great debate but both sides are guilty of lying so you choose which lies to believe.

So the bit where Khan waved the Leave pamphlet at BoJo and categorically denied that Turkey would be joining the EU whilst it showed it on the leaflet not evidence of this?

He denied it but didn't provide any proof that their accession wasn't being sped up, Sadiq Khan is also not a part of the government so how can he speak on behalf of government policy, interestingly the conservatives have been more tight lipped about Turkey.

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Post by Hero on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:15 pm

A country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc. EU rules are divided into 35 policy areas and in 10 years Turkey only managed to adopt the rules on one: science and research. In most other areas it has not even made a start. Khan stated this during the debate, he doesn't need Government policy to know this.

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Post by Electric Demon on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:19 pm

What a positive thing it would be for Turkey, its citizens and the World if they were to adopt the other 34 and earn admission too! It would be a good thing!

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Post by Sin é on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:20 pm

In an interview with the Mayor of Newry (a town in Northern Ireland on the border with the Republic), he was asked how the UK leaving the EU would affect cross border business. He said he was assured by Theresa Villiers and Boris Johnson that it would have no effect whatsoever on trade between NI and ROI.

That was a lie.
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Post by Sin é on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:25 pm

Hero wrote:A country has to adopt and enforce all the current EU rules before it can be admitted to the bloc. EU rules are divided into 35 policy areas and in 10 years Turkey only managed to adopt the rules on one: science and research. In most other areas it has not even made a start. Khan stated this during the debate, he doesn't need Government policy to know this.

I read elsewhere that Scotland's admittance was discussed on German TV. It seems they said that this could not happen unless Scotland left the UK, but once that happens, their acceptance would be very quick as they would have adopted all the EU rules already.
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Post by Ent on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:46 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Hero wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Hero wrote:Remain did state throughout the Leave pledges and propaganda were lies, watch Khan and Davidson pull apart BoJo for evidence.
The problem being is the 52% still believed the lies.

The thing is they did no such thing, Sadiq Khan just reeled off catchphrase after catchphrase and his 'thank you' crap will have antagonised a lot of voters. Davidson did a fair job during the great debate but both sides are guilty of lying so you choose which lies to believe.

So the bit where Khan waved the Leave pamphlet at BoJo and categorically denied that Turkey would be joining the EU whilst it showed it on the leaflet not evidence of this?

He denied it but didn't provide any proof that their accession wasn't being sped up, Sadiq Khan is also not a part of the government so how can he speak on behalf of government policy, interestingly the conservatives have been more tight lipped about Turkey.

Cameron stated all this in the live question time and was met with questions of will you veto it, then having to explain he wouldn't be prime minister in 30 years.

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Post by pedro on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:48 pm

I don't understand why Scotland has to leave the UK to join the EU?

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Post by pedro on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm

So Leave claims to not be xenophobes or racists, yet has a big issue with Turkey in the EU...

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Post by Rowley on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:52 pm

Not everyone who voted leave is a racist, but everyone who is a racist voted leave.

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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:02 pm

Rowley wrote:Not everyone who voted leave is a racist, but everyone who is a racist voted leave.

I've heard that soundbite before. Was it you? It's nonsense anyway.

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Post by Rowley on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:05 pm

In what way is it nonsense?

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Post by Sin é on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:05 pm

pedro wrote:I don't understand why Scotland has to leave the UK to join the EU?

You need to be a sovereign state in control of your own parliament and control the raising of taxes and not dependent or subject to another country.

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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:06 pm

pedro wrote:So Leave claims to not be xenophobes or racists, yet has a big issue with Turkey in the EU...

I voted Remain, I'm in no sense a racist and I would have an issue with Turkey in the EU.

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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:08 pm

Rowley wrote:In what way is it nonsense?

There will be racists on both sides. I have no doubt racists voted Remain for economic reasons.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:08 pm

Rowley wrote:Not everyone who voted leave is a racist, but everyone who is a racist voted leave.

Hmmm, guilt by association?  

Racists exist.... in all Nations.  And they're still allowed vote

....and some of them Vote for the Party you mostly support in a General Election (and I don't know or care what that Party is, you'll get the point I'm making) - therefore, racists have helped many a conventional party to power over the decades and centuries.  Should we all complain about them in a normal election?

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Post by Electric Demon on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:10 pm

I don't think people were being racist in having valid concerns about Turkey joining the EU. The border with Syria scares people. That's not a racist concern - it is a genuine one.

However, people were unable to join the dots that a Turkey backed by the EU and with access to EU funding and border force agencies, and most importantly with a feeling of integration with Europe would actually be able to control that border much better and  than it is currently able to, and have more inclination to do so, keeping everyone in Europe safer.

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Post by Rowley on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:11 pm

I seriously doubt that. Racists tend to view racial matters in pretty extreme terms, kind of goes with the turf. Would be staggered if any were sufficiently swayed by economic arguments to deny themselves the chance to get more punitive immigration policies.

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Post by Ent on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:12 pm

Whilst I'm sure some where concerned about the Syrian border in sure a lot had more of an issue with the idea loads of Turkish people would come to the uk and take jobs and benefits.

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Post by Dave. on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:16 pm

I voted out - and into the world.

I just believe the EU has got too powerful and too centralised. Perhaps I would have accepted a reformed EU with decentralised powers to all nation states but that wasn't on the ballot paper.

That's not so day there weren't half truth in the campaign and unsavory characters for both Leave and Remain. And racist abuse is not on, sadly it will happen regardless of how we voted on Thursday. Thats on us all to change. And being from NI, I only know too well that it could reignite the Scottish and Irish questions. I then remember the EU brought Ireland to its knees.

The EU was a noble idea - it just got too powerful. I want to engage with Europe and the world. The EU is not Europe. I can (and many others can) still want out of the EU whilst at the same thinking the Farage wing of UKIP and the "Little Englanders" are divisive and wrong.

Its up to us all to win the hearts and minds of people to a more welcoming, open path. We dont need, and never had needed the EU to do that.

When you are faced with a binary choice, it means that you will technically be on the same side as some unsavoury individuals. Both sides. And thats why own view on the referendum - both sides had their nasty characters. To me, its a disservice to paint both camps as their worst. What we don't need now is arrogance and sneering. Whether you voted leave or remain, its up to us all to take the country forward.

These isles can be open, tolerant and welcoming. It is up to us to make them that way. As I said, membership of EU or lack thereof does not change our ability to do that. Will it be a challenge? Of course it will. But either way it was going to be a challenge. But I'm confident that optimism will always prevail.

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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:17 pm

Rowley wrote:I seriously doubt that. Racists tend to view racial matters in pretty extreme terms, kind of goes with the turf. Would be staggered if any were sufficiently swayed by economic arguments to deny themselves the chance to get more punitive immigration policies.

As someone once said; "it's the economy, stupid". Some racists care more about what's in their wallet than they do about the colour of a persons skin, especially if their business depends on their custom.


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Post by GSC on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:19 pm

Does not being in favor of open borders make someone a racist?

Like it or not, immigration was a key subject of this debate, and it can't be dismissed by racist idiots fell for Farage's lies. There are legitimate concerns the remain campaign failed to address
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Post by Alex_Germany on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:19 pm

pedro wrote:I don't understand why Scotland has to leave the UK to join the EU?

Currently, they don't have the authority to decide that. If however they did, then it might be possible.

There would be a few practical issues to sort out, and it would be messy if England leaves the single market (though that would be a disaster for the UK)

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Post by Guest on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:20 pm

Ent wrote:Whilst I'm sure some where concerned about the Syrian border in sure a lot had more of an issue with the idea loads of Turkish people would come to the uk and take jobs and benefits.

And some would be concerned about human rights abuses under the dictatorship of Erdogan.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:24 pm

Cassius Zhi wrote:I don't think people were being racist in having valid concerns about Turkey joining the EU. The border with Syria scares people. That's not a racist concern - it is a genuine one.

However, people were unable to join the dots that a Turkey backed by the EU and with access to EU funding and border force agencies, and most importantly with a feeling of integration with Europe would actually be able to control that border much better and  than it is currently able to, and have more inclination to do so, keeping everyone in Europe safer.

A Turkey that suppresses a free press helps keep Europe safer?

That's some kind of safe. It seems some feel we should forget more and more considered liberties and symbols of a free society to keep ourselves 'safe'. Is that the price that is being asked? Is that the message of the EU? Sacrifice personal freedoms and social freedoms and social tools (a free media) that protects such freedoms - in order to keep us 'safe' from the big bad beasts at our borders.

I keep saying it - often the EU reminds me of George Orwell's 1984. We're always under threat - eternally; either from aggressive outsiders, aggressive insiders, physical bullies or financial ones - so let's agree to give up all freedoms to protect us from the eternal enemy at the border.

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Post by Alex_Germany on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:24 pm

Dave. wrote:I voted out - and into the world.

I just believe the EU has got too powerful and too centralised. Perhaps I would have accepted a reformed EU with decentralised powers to all nation states but that wasn't on the ballot paper.

That's not so day there weren't half truth in the campaign and unsavory characters for both Leave and Remain. And racist abuse is not on, sadly it will happen regardless of how we voted on Thursday. Thats on us all to change. And being from NI, I only know too well that it could reignite the Scottish and Irish questions. I then remember the EU brought Ireland to its knees.

The EU was a noble idea - it just got too powerful. I want to engage with Europe and the world. The EU is not Europe. I can (and many others can) still want out of the EU whilst at the same thinking the Farage wing of UKIP and the "Little Englanders" are divisive and wrong.

Its up to us all to win the hearts and minds of people to a more welcoming, open path. We dont need, and never had needed the EU to do that.

When you are faced with a binary choice, it means that you will technically be on the same side as some unsavoury individuals. Both sides. And thats why own view on the referendum - both sides had their nasty characters. To me, its a disservice to paint both camps as their worst. What we don't need now is arrogance and sneering. Whether you voted leave or remain, its up to us all to take the country forward.

These isles can be open, tolerant and welcoming. It is up to us to make them that way. As I said, membership of EU or lack thereof does not change our ability to do that. Will it be a challenge? Of course it will. But either way it was going to be a challenge. But I'm confident that optimism will always prevail.

Would you be in favour of a "Norway deal"? We only need another 2% to accept that and then we have a Quorum for that.

Of course, you still don't get to stop Brits and EU citizens from travelling and working where they want to. That won't satisfy the "illiberals" or the racists.


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Post by Duty281 on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:25 pm

temporary21 wrote:I think the way people are seeing leave voters here and everywhere is quite a dangerous thing. We're building them up in our heads and demonising them and not bothering trying to understand them. Which is proving their feelings of years of being misunderstood and ignored correct

All the while we faff and sulk over something we can no longer control the worst of society think they are being found right by this vote

Hate only propagates if we allow it. That lot need kicking to the curb fast, but that isn't even remotely the typical leave voter. If you think it is then this only gets worse

Thank heaven for some common sense.

The statistical reality is that over 40% of people with degrees voted Leave (not that education equals intelligence in any way); over 40% of the AB social class (the upper-class, the rich, the elite etc) voted Leave; a slender majority of the C1 class (the middle) voted Leave; and just over 60% (not a massive majority) of C2/D class voted Leave.

A slender majority of Tory voters voted Leave; around half of Labour voters voted Leave; nearly a third of Lib Dem and SNP voters voted Leave; some Green voters did so as well.

Brexit is a broad-church, not confined to a narrow sector of society.

And the idea that older people voted selfishly, as pushed by a minority of Remain voters, is total fiction. The short-term effects of Brexit will be mostly negative (over the next year-18 months), as we get used to the upheaval, but the long-term effects are purely beautiful.

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Post by Electric Demon on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:30 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Cassius Zhi wrote:I don't think people were being racist in having valid concerns about Turkey joining the EU. The border with Syria scares people. That's not a racist concern - it is a genuine one.

However, people were unable to join the dots that a Turkey backed by the EU and with access to EU funding and border force agencies, and most importantly with a feeling of integration with Europe would actually be able to control that border much better and  than it is currently able to, and have more inclination to do so, keeping everyone in Europe safer.

A Turkey that suppresses a free press helps keep Europe safer?

That's some kind of safe.  It seems some feel we should forget more and more considered liberties and symbols of a free society to keep ourselves 'safe'.  Is that the price that is being asked?  Is that the message of the EU?  Sacrifice personal freedoms and social freedoms and social tools (a free media) that protects such freedoms - in order to keep us 'safe' from the big bad beasts at our borders.

I keep saying it - often the EU reminds me of George Orwell's 1984.  We're always under threat - eternally; either from aggressive outsiders, aggressive insiders, physical bullies or financial ones - so let's agree to give up all freedoms to protect us from the eternal enemy at the border.

A free press and compliance with EU human rights is a pre-requisite of admission to the EU though isn't it?

Hence it would be a really positive thing for Turkey to get itself to a place where they meet the required standards.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:37 pm

Cassius Zhi wrote:

A free press and compliance with EU human rights is a pre-requisite of admission to the EU though isn't it?

Hence it would be a really positive thing for Turkey to get itself to a place where they meet the required standards.

So they have a long way to go then - press and Kurds. They're not interested in meeting required standards - maybe they will when they defeat their enemies by not using the standards and then smiling at us and saying "Now we're ready for the standards"?

Besides, by the time Turkey is ready to join, the EU itself might be a distant memory.

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Post by pedro on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:39 pm

The Syrian problem is hopefully solved before Turkey would ever join the EU anyway. So a bit theoretical argument.

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Post by Electric Demon on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:41 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Cassius Zhi wrote:

A free press and compliance with EU human rights is a pre-requisite of admission to the EU though isn't it?

Hence it would be a really positive thing for Turkey to get itself to a place where they meet the required standards.

So they have a long way to go then - press and Kurds.  They're not interested in meeting required standards - maybe they will when they defeat their enemies by not using the standards and then smiling at us and saying "Now we're ready for the standards"?

Besides, by the time Turkey is ready to join, the EU itself might be a distant memory.

Exactly. So in the space of about 5 posts we've established that Turkey should never have been a referendum issue

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:45 pm

Duty281 wrote:
temporary21 wrote:I think the way people are seeing leave voters here and everywhere is quite a dangerous thing. We're building them up in our heads and demonising them and not bothering trying to understand them. Which is proving their feelings of years of being misunderstood and ignored correct

All the while we faff and sulk over something we can no longer control the worst of society think they are being found right by this vote

Hate only propagates if we allow it. That lot need kicking to the curb fast, but that isn't even remotely the typical leave voter. If you think it is then this only gets worse

Thank heaven for some common sense.

The statistical reality is that over 40% of people with degrees voted Leave (not that education equals intelligence in any way); over 40% of the AB social class (the upper-class, the rich, the elite etc) voted Leave; a slender majority of the C1 class (the middle) voted Leave; and just over 60% (not a massive majority) of C2/D class voted Leave.

A slender majority of Tory voters voted Leave; around half of Labour voters voted Leave; nearly a third of Lib Dem and SNP voters voted Leave; some Green voters did so as well.

Brexit is a broad-church, not confined to a narrow sector of society.

And the idea that older people voted selfishly, as pushed by a minority of Remain voters, is total fiction. The short-term effects of Brexit will be mostly negative (over the next year-18 months), as we get used to the upheaval, but the long-term effects are purely beautiful.

Can you provide the source for the stats? Not saying I don't believe you, but you've made stuff up before.

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Post by Rowley on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:49 pm

They can't be right. The referendum is a secret vote. As such nobody knows how people voted. It's polling data at best.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:51 pm

Cassius Zhi wrote:

Exactly. So in the space of about 5 posts we've established that Turkey should never have been a referendum issue

Nah, that was your issue Wink Mine was trying to disrupt the idea that Turkey is an ideal solution for providing a safety buffer zone for Europe. If it was part of the referendum argument then so be it - I personally didn't hear much about it myself and I doubt many of the Leave voters gave Turkey much thought.

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Post by Hero on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:53 pm

The only hard evidence is by generalising based upon the results and the demographics of the town/cities that those people live in.
Such as only 1 of the top 35 for % of residents with degrees voted Leave.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:53 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
temporary21 wrote:I think the way people are seeing leave voters here and everywhere is quite a dangerous thing. We're building them up in our heads and demonising them and not bothering trying to understand them. Which is proving their feelings of years of being misunderstood and ignored correct

All the while we faff and sulk over something we can no longer control the worst of society think they are being found right by this vote

Hate only propagates if we allow it. That lot need kicking to the curb fast, but that isn't even remotely the typical leave voter. If you think it is then this only gets worse

Thank heaven for some common sense.

The statistical reality is that over 40% of people with degrees voted Leave (not that education equals intelligence in any way); over 40% of the AB social class (the upper-class, the rich, the elite etc) voted Leave; a slender majority of the C1 class (the middle) voted Leave; and just over 60% (not a massive majority) of C2/D class voted Leave.

A slender majority of Tory voters voted Leave; around half of Labour voters voted Leave; nearly a third of Lib Dem and SNP voters voted Leave; some Green voters did so as well.

Brexit is a broad-church, not confined to a narrow sector of society.

And the idea that older people voted selfishly, as pushed by a minority of Remain voters, is total fiction. The short-term effects of Brexit will be mostly negative (over the next year-18 months), as we get used to the upheaval, but the long-term effects are purely beautiful.

Can you provide the source for the stats? Not saying I don't believe you, but you've made stuff up before.

When have I made stuff up before? I resent such an implication.

And the source is Lord Ashcroft's polling (slight apologies as I look again, it's over a third of SNP voters, not under, and a bit less than half of Labour voters):

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

Interestingly enough, this also says:

Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the EU was “the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”.

That roughly correlates with the hundreds of people that I have spoken to in the run-up to this referendum, but strangely enough a number of people on this forum seem to think the main reason was 'immigration'.

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Post by Electric Demon on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:57 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Cassius Zhi wrote:

Exactly. So in the space of about 5 posts we've established that Turkey should never have been a referendum issue

Nah, that was your issue Wink  Mine was trying to disrupt the idea that Turkey is an ideal solution for providing a safety buffer zone for Europe.  If it was part of the referendum argument then so be it - I personally didn't hear much about it myself and I doubt many of the Leave voters gave Turkey much thought.

I agree

The ideal situation would be to build a wall... AND MAKE THEM PAY FOR IT!

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Post by Hero on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:58 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Cassius Zhi wrote:

Exactly. So in the space of about 5 posts we've established that Turkey should never have been a referendum issue

Nah, that was your issue Wink  Mine was trying to disrupt the idea that Turkey is an ideal solution for providing a safety buffer zone for Europe.  If it was part of the referendum argument then so be it - I personally didn't hear much about it myself and I doubt many of the Leave voters gave Turkey much thought.

The Leave campaign though were quite happy to peddle this:

The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) Image10

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Post by Ent on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:58 pm

Decisions about the U.K. are taken in he uk.

All a crock of Poopie this.

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Post by GSC on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:59 pm

Even then, if Immigration was a key concern for a voter, that doesn't make them racist by default. Guilt by association does not apply
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Post by SecretFly on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:59 pm

“the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK”

Now there's a word you don't meet often on the way to a European Union debate.  It's always a galaxy of practical reasons that people either throw up or protest against, using acres of stats.

But it's so hard to argue with a Principle.  It seldom has a bucket load of stats - it's just a gut feeling, an unwavering inner comfort that they were doing the right thing.

That's how many people voted - Leave AND Remain - on their principles.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:00 pm

Ent wrote:Decisions about the U.K. are taken in he uk.

All a crock of Poopie this.

Apart from the European Commission, of course, whose law-making powers were supreme over our Houses of Parliament.

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