The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

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Post by Electric Demon on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 6:17 pm

First topic message reminder :

It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.


Last edited by Cassius Zhi on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Changes "intelligence" to "experts" as that was very poor choice of words)

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Post by Rowley on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 9:51 pm

Top 2%, scourge of bookmakers everywhere. To quote Muhammad Ali, it's hard to be humble when you're this great.

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Post by Hero on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 9:51 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Rowley wrote:Spat at? Really?

Yes, twice.

One time when we (Grassroots Out) had a street stall in the centre of town. Another when some charming fellow objected to me putting a Vote Leave sign on a lamp post.

Completely disagree with anyone spitting at you.
You were breaking the law though as far as I'm aware.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 9:52 pm

Alex_Germany wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Hero wrote:
GSC wrote:To be fair, all that says is they're joining the EU. I get the inference but such political half truths are hardly a new concept.

Again this defence of it being a 'half truth'
It is not a half truth. It is a lie.

Are you saying Britain Stronger in Europe and/or Labour In for Britain never lied?

Can you give an example?

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 9:54 pm

Hero wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Rowley wrote:Spat at? Really?

Yes, twice.

One time when we (Grassroots Out) had a street stall in the centre of town. Another when some charming fellow objected to me putting a Vote Leave sign on a lamp post.

Completely disagree with anyone spitting at you.
You were breaking the law though as far as I'm aware.

Perfectly legal to put posters on lamp posts during an election period (as long as you're aware of certain restrictions e.g. not obstructing traffic lights or road safety signs). Labour In and Lib Dems In did the same in my local area.

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Post by Rowley on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 9:54 pm

Quoting an independent report is not quite the same as driving round in a bus with a pledge on the side you know you won't and can't keep.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 9:55 pm

Dave. wrote:

Secret Fly - how is it being taken down there? Up here its the Shinners who are ironically most angry, whodathunkit!

The Intelligentsia (politicians, mainstream journalists, young people who want to go on holidays without hassle Wink ) they're probably mad as hell that the UK voted Leave.
There are quite a few articles in the Irish Independent giving that official generally fearful line, but the trend of comments under them have surprised me (as a lifelong old EU cynic). The comments, and there are many under many of the articles, gives me hope that the EU is going to have to change dramatically before an ever growing disaffection with it ever dies out.

The cat is out of the bag. Juncker and his flying monkeys will have a time of it getting that cat back in.

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Post by Hero on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 9:55 pm

Now that's misleading most certainly, the wording in itself is ambiguous.

'Almost' and 'At stake'
So not a million and they may never be lost.

See Duty I can actually pour scorn on Remain if it's produced, try it yourself on the NHS and Turkey claims.

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Post by Hero on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:00 pm

As far as I was aware on posters on lamp posts:
It is illegal for anyone other than the local authority or their representatives to put posters up on lamposts (as well as making you look like a get rich quick schemester).

The local authority can and do remove them and can also take you to court, where you can be fined.


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Post by Guest on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:00 pm

Hopefully Junker gets the boot.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:00 pm

The Vote Leave campaign was a load of rubbish. The £350 million could fund/for the NHS (it differed) was the main focal point, and I imagine it would have drove so few people to voting Leave.

Turkey was going to join the EU (in about ten years I would estimate), but I don't think they will now. Another claim by Vote Leave that did little for our cause.

We won in spite, not because, of them. When historians look back at this period, Nigel will be remembered and praised as the main man, not Boris.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:05 pm

Hero wrote:As far as I was aware on posters on lamp posts:
It is illegal for anyone other than the local authority or their representatives to put posters up on lamposts (as well as making you look like a get rich quick schemester).

The local authority can and do remove them and can also take you to court, where you can be fined.

You're allowed to during election periods in certain council areas (some councils ban any form of political advertising).

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Post by Dave. on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:07 pm

Thanks SecretFly - as expected. The CTA is still in place in any case.

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Post by GSC on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:07 pm

lostinwales wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Hero wrote:The only hard evidence is by generalising based upon the results and the demographics of the town/cities that those people live in.
Such as only 1 of the top 35 for % of residents with degrees voted Leave.

Wish people would stop associating educational prowess with intelligence...

It is isn't the same thing...


Yeah my phD in mathematics is worthless and as a result I am dumb I realize that now. My only hope of being taken for clever would have been if I had left school at 16.

It isn't the same thing but it is broadly indicative

Only very broadly and higher education does not guarantee the ability to think critically about real world problems.
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Post by Hero on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:08 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Hero wrote:As far as I was aware on posters on lamp posts:
It is illegal for anyone other than the local authority or their representatives to put posters up on lamposts (as well as making you look like a get rich quick schemester).

The local authority can and do remove them and can also take you to court, where you can be fined.

You're allowed to during election periods in certain council areas (some councils ban any form of political advertising).

Fair enough, I was aware of some councils getting shirty over it.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:09 pm

Munchkin wrote:Hopefully Junker gets the boot.

He's a type though, not an individual. He's a bootboy stormtrooper who hates being talked back to or having to listen to voices of dissent. He's a type that is designed specifically for the office - an aloof contempt for compromise is a requirement for the job. Barroso was the same. Juncker is nothing different to the type. He'll be replaced by another zealot, preaching from the pulpit.

The EU needs a bigger spring clean than getting rid of Juncker. It needs to move to a smaller house and shut the hell up for about 20 years.

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Post by GSC on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:10 pm

Duty281 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
GSC wrote:The inference is pretty clear, same as saying Turkey is joining the EU infers it's imminent.

I believe Turkey and the EU are having talks again this week - not too sure if Turkey still want to join!

When the recession hits you might not be so smug Duty..

I'll be smug for a week, then stop!

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Why be smug at all?  Is smugness a good quality in a person? Does being smug make someone a better human being?

Why be smug at all?

Because in the last few weeks, I've been threatened, abused, mocked, heckled, spat at, and now I've got the result I wanted.

Victory.

Don't forget banned!
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Post by Duty281 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:13 pm

laughing

For the 8th time (I think).

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Post by Hero on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:14 pm

Duty281 wrote:The Vote Leave campaign was a load of rubbish. The £350 million could fund/for the NHS (it differed) was the main focal point, and I imagine it would have drove so few people to voting Leave.

Turkey was going to join the EU (in about ten years I would estimate), but I don't think they will now. Another claim by Vote Leave that did little for our cause.

We won in spite, not because, of them. When historians look back at this period, Nigel will be remembered and praised as the main man, not Boris.

Nice to see Duty OK

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:16 pm

Boris is planning to rush through emergency new self-UK law when he takes office that will prevent Duty from being banned ever again.

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Post by Hero on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:16 pm

Duty281 wrote:laughing

For the 8th time (I think).

Well if we keep letting you back in here there's hope for Britain and the EU then Wink

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Post by Hero on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:17 pm

SecretFly wrote:Boris is planning to rush through emergency new self-UK law when he takes office that will prevent Duty from being banned ever again.

I'm moving the server to Brussels.

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Post by Sin é on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:18 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Hopefully Junker gets the boot.

He's a type though, not an individual.  He's a bootboy stormtrooper who hates being talked back to or having to listen to voices of dissent.  He's a type that is designed specifically for the office - an aloof contempt for compromise is a requirement for the job.  Barroso was the same.  Juncker is nothing different to the type.  He'll be replaced by another zealot, preaching from the pulpit.

The EU needs a bigger spring clean than getting rid of Juncker.  It needs to move to a smaller house and shut the hell up for about 20 years.

Juncker is not popular within the EU. From what I understand, they just let him at it. Don't think his health is good either. Barroso is a smarmy git.
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Post by Guest on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:21 pm

Boris in the telegraph lol

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Post by GSC on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:24 pm

Duty281 wrote:laughing

For the 8th time (I think).

I once got banned for seeing if the ban button I had access to for some reason worked
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Post by Hero on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:25 pm

GSC wrote:
Duty281 wrote:laughing

For the 8th time (I think).

I once got banned for seeing if the ban button I had access to for some reason worked

Because you went and banned someone you didn't like for sh1ts and giggles you mean.

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Post by Guest on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:26 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Hopefully Junker gets the boot.

He's a type though, not an individual.  He's a bootboy stormtrooper who hates being talked back to or having to listen to voices of dissent.  He's a type that is designed specifically for the office - an aloof contempt for compromise is a requirement for the job.  Barroso was the same.  Juncker is nothing different to the type.  He'll be replaced by another zealot, preaching from the pulpit.

The EU needs a bigger spring clean than getting rid of Juncker.  It needs to move to a smaller house and shut the hell up for about 20 years.

He may have been a type that fitted well with the EU prior to Brexit but, post Brexit, the EU will reform, and his type surplus to requirements. His knife in the back to the Remain camp, on the eve of election day, has angered many. His obvious lack of diplomatic skills coupled with his intransigence in negotiations will sink him, I feel. Merkel has already sent out a warning, and other EU supporters are calling for his resignation. The EU Elite will not want anyone so reckless to cause further upset, not even one of their own.

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Post by GSC on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:26 pm

In Nicks case it was more taking one for the team.
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Post by GSC on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:28 pm

Why did I have access to the banhammer anyway
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Post by Hero on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:31 pm

GSC wrote:Why did I have access to the banhammer anyway

Setting up of a group incorrectly I imagine.

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Post by Sin é on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:35 pm

Boris in Telegraph wrote:

I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be. There will still be intense and intensifying European cooperation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment. EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.

British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market. Britain is and always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defence to counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing – all the things we need to do together to make our world safer.

The only change – and it will not come in any great rush – is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU’s extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal. This will bring not threats, but golden opportunities for this country – to pass laws and set taxes according to the needs of the UK.

So, the British Government doesn't set taxes now? How come every EU country has different tax rates?


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Post by lostinwales on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:36 pm

Bloody independent.. (About the North)

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/why-the-north-of-england-will-regret-voting-for-brexit-a7101321.html

In these towns, like my own hometown of Knowsley in the North West, the high streets are dead, the libraries are shut, Sure Start centres don’t exist anymore, NHS waiting times are long, jobs are scarce, wages are low and benefits have been cut. All the while, the cheap migrant labour coming in to fill low-paid precarious positions expanding under the recession becomes far more obvious. These areas aren’t just in crisis; they’re also, unlike their metropolitan neighbours, totally unused to high levels of historical migration and less equipped to culturally absorb recent arrivals.

The people living in these areas decided to “take back control” of their lives, lives which seem to be overtaken by forces outside of their control: the economy, Cameron’s Conservative party and, more questionably, the EU and migrants.

This sentiment was hijacked by the Leave campaign’s Nigel Farage, Neil Hamilton, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Iain Duncan Smith. They disingenuously insisted that the EU and migrants had caused the North’s woes. They said nothing of the unregulated markets and austerity that cut their inhabitants wages and benefits.

Despite being pro-free markets and austerity, the EU never forced these ideologies onto us. EU migrants were never to blame for the lack of housing, poor healthcare and education and scarce public services in the UK after Osborne’s budgets. It was the free market, anti-welfare elite who responded to the financial crisis with austerity. Tragically, those are the very people the North just gave a political mandate to.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:37 pm

I do think a senior figure for the conservatives legitimised Farage, I don't think he could have had any success without these figures. A lot of people don't like him or UKIP, and I don't think he'd have won anyone round specifically. But his parties mere presence terrified Cameron and he showed the folly of bending your principles for votes. As much impact as Nige had, arguably the weakness of Cameron was even more important than the strengths Nigel has.

Sadly I see our two major parties as so depressingly poor at the moment that I cannot understand why anyone would vote for either. Yet they have managed their relationships on the dirty, 'secret' side of politics so well that we will never see a winning party that is not one of those two (never in most of our lifetimes anyway).

I suppose Labour's reaction may well be worth a thread of its own

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Post by Guest on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:38 pm

Boris talking nonsense in the telegraph

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Post by Electric Demon on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:41 pm

Labour today are proving themselves unfit for opposition, let alone Government.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:41 pm

Munchkin wrote:

He may have been a type that fitted well with the EU prior to Brexit but, post Brexit, the EU will reform, and his type surplus to requirements. His knife in the back to the Remain camp, on the eve of election day, has angered many. His obvious lack of diplomatic skills coupled with his intransigence in negotiations will sink him, I feel. Merkel has already sent out a warning, and other EU supporters are calling for his resignation. The EU Elite will not want anyone so reckless to cause further upset, not even one of their own.

It's too late though, I think. The EU identity has been branded into our conscience. The problem isn't a change of 'mood' or 'tone' or for once an actual 'smiling' face running the place. Like I said, the spring clean will need more than a duster and if the EU tries to change the face but keep to the message and the long term plans then it's not going to fool anyone. It's the EU that needs changing from any side they want, top to bottom or bottom to top. It's the Product that needs to be changed not the face that sells it.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:43 pm

LiamB wrote:Boris talking nonsense in the telegraph

The man will never ascend to the peak, he has alienated too many of his fellow MPs.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:44 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Turkey was going to join the EU (in about ten years I would estimate).
Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:47 pm

Duty281 wrote:
LiamB wrote:Boris talking nonsense in the telegraph

The man will never ascend to the peak, he has alienated too many of his fellow MPs.
It seems any politician that coughs in public these days alienates a sizeable portion of their own electorate or their own party.

Popularity is a dying condition!

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:49 pm

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Turkey was going to join the EU (in about ten years I would estimate).
Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

Pardon?

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Post by Yadsendew on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:50 pm

All these Labour Shadow Ministers resigning

Jeremy Corbyn's latest statement below:

"Our country faces a huge challenge following Thursday's vote to leave the European Union. And the British people have a right to know how their elected leaders are going to respond.

"We need to come together to heal the divisions exposed by the vote. We have to respect the decision that has been made, hold the government to democratic account over its response, and ensure that working people don't pay the price of exit.

Neither wing of the Tory government has an exit plan. Labour will now ensure that our reform agenda is at the heart of the negotiations that lie ahead. That includes the freedom to shape our economy for the future and the necessity of protecting social and employment rights.
"One clear message from last Thursday's vote is that millions of people feel shut out of a political and economic system that has let them down and scarred our country with grotesque levels of inequality.

"I was elected by hundreds of thousands of Labour Party members and supporters with an overwhelming mandate for a different kind of politics.

"I regret there have been resignations today from my shadow cabinet. But I am not going to betray the trust of those who voted for me - or the millions of supporters across the country who need Labour to represent them."

I wonder what the reaction would have been from all round if Remain had won?

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Post by GSC on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:55 pm

Probably rumors that Jeremy wanted to leave but no opportunity to chuck him. Also DC quiets the eurosceptics in his own party while jezza is on the side lines

I'm wary of connecting the Labour resignations to the EU vote beyond giving them an opportunity to chuck him.
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Post by lostinwales on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:55 pm

Cassius Zhi wrote:Labour today are proving themselves unfit for opposition, let alone Government.

Oh gawd. Corbyn lovely guy and all that but a real old school activist who seems to deal with dissent in much the way, say, Stalin would just without the killings and deportations. He is not electable as PM. We need people in politics like Corbyn for his beliefs and honesty, but his position should be the equivalent of the slave whispering in the ear of the Caesar to tell him that he is in fact mortal, rather than Caesar himself.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:56 pm

I am entirely on Corbyn's side and any chance I had of voting Labour may have died today with their pathetic showing. They seem to wish they were the Conservatives without all the stigma of being the Conservatives.

What do your members want, Labour? They wanted Corbyn and you didn't like it, and now you've picked your time to try make amends. I hope they don't get up from falling on their swords.

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Post by catchweight on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 10:56 pm

You have to hand it to Boris. He is a great spoofer. What is frightening is how different his spoof is to reality. He is flying totally on the seat of his pants. He hasnt a breeze how this is going to pan out or how he is going to manage it. But hes got the solution for everyone up his sleeve.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 11:00 pm

lostinwales wrote:

Oh gawd. Corbyn lovely guy and all that but a real old school activist who seems to deal with dissent in much the way, say, Stalin would just without the killings and deportations. He is not electable as PM. We need people in politics like Corbyn for his beliefs and honesty, but his position should be the equivalent of the slave whispering in the ear of the Caesar to tell him that he is in fact mortal, rather than Caesar himself.

Laugh and very accurate portrayal.

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Post by Ent on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 11:00 pm

Dave. wrote:

Secret Fly - how is it being taken down there? Up here its the Shinners who are ironically most angry, whodathunkit!

Everyone except the DUP were pro remain, nationally the vote was 55% remain, only leave regions were DUP strong holds.

Even Paisley junior is advising people to get Irish passports.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/unionist-ian-paisley-jr-mp-constituents-apply-republic-of-ireland-eire-passports-a7102761.html

A lot of concern about the border and trade between north and south.

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Post by lostinwales on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 11:01 pm

GSC wrote:Probably rumors that Jeremy wanted to leave but no opportunity to chuck him. Also DC quiets the eurosceptics in his own party while jezza is on the side lines

I'm wary of connecting the Labour resignations to the EU vote beyond giving them an opportunity to chuck him.

The thinking seems to be that its very likely there will be a general election in the Autumn. If we were sticking to the fixed terms it would have been easy enough to ease Corbyn out before hand, but given the likely timescale the parliamentary party have decided they need to move quickly as they don't see him as electable. Given his grass roots support Labour are in a world of pain.

Tim Farron for PM?

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 11:02 pm

One of those times where it's benefitted Boris to look a bit of a bumbler. "He's got no plan" 'that's what he wants you to think, it's an act' "no, no, really, this time he actually has literally no idea what to do" 'you don't get it, it's a ploy' "oh for f***s sake, I'm moving to Canada"

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Post by GSC on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 11:03 pm

I feel for Corbyn.

But a lot of his problems are down to his incompetence in a role he isn't fit for.
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Post by GSC on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 11:04 pm

I think more people know who Juncker is than Tim Farron.
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