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The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

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Post by Electric Demon Sun 26 Jun 2016, 6:17 pm

First topic message reminder :

It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.


Last edited by Cassius Zhi on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Changes "intelligence" to "experts" as that was very poor choice of words)

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Post by milkyboy Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:27 pm

Merkel and the EU hierarchy might be saying no informal talks, but in the real world we know that's ballcocks. Of course they'll be talking... it's in their interests.

Unfortunately it's hard to see in the current circumstances why they would want to give us any kind of favourable deal. In principle as a key trading partner they'd like us onside but that's going to take a back seat. Their primary goal in current circumstances is creating barriers to exit for the rest of their membership.... and the best way to do that is to for brexit to be a disaster for britain.

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Post by stub Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:29 pm

Sin é wrote:Some interesting analysis from our old friends Rabo here ....

Brexit likely to inflate UK food prices

Regional Food & Agri

June 2016

The UK is a food importing country. Its isolation from the internal EU market after the Brexit is likely to increase its costs of sourcing food products, while it also increases the costs of the technology needed to produce food.

https://far.rabobank.com/en/sectors/regional-food-agri/Brexit-likely-to-inflate-UK-food-prices.html


Yes, I think that I read somewhere that the UK imports half of Ireland's agricultural output.

I don't see any good reason why the UK would be isolated from EU markets although I can see that it might cost the UK more to trade with the EU from the outside if that is what transpires.

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Post by Sin é Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:36 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote: That would also apply on exports to US in the absence of a trade agreement (which Obama has commented on the UK would go to the bottom of the queue to negotiate).

How long more has Obama got?  Who now has a 50/50 chance of replacing him?  What did that candidate say?

That they don't want any immigrants.
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Post by SecretFly Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:39 pm

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote: That would also apply on exports to US in the absence of a trade agreement (which Obama has commented on the UK would go to the bottom of the queue to negotiate).

How long more has Obama got?  Who now has a 50/50 chance of replacing him?  What did that candidate say?

That they don't want any immigrants.

Fine. Lovely Retort noted Wink

Now what did he say?

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Post by JuliusHMarx Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:42 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote: That would also apply on exports to US in the absence of a trade agreement (which Obama has commented on the UK would go to the bottom of the queue to negotiate).

How long more has Obama got?  Who now has a 50/50 chance of replacing him?  What did that candidate say?

That they don't want any immigrants.

Fine.  Lovely Retort noted Wink

Now what did he say?

That Scotland was really happy with the Leave result.

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Post by Sin é Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:43 pm

milkyboy wrote:Merkel and the EU hierarchy might be saying no informal talks, but in the real world we know that's ballcocks. Of course they'll be talking... it's in their interests.

Unfortunately it's hard to see in the current circumstances why they would want to give us any kind of favourable deal. In principle as a key trading partner they'd like us onside but that's going to take a back seat. Their primary goal in current circumstances is creating barriers to exit for the rest of their membership.... and the best way to do that is to for brexit to be a disaster for britain.

Ireland would be very close to the UK and are really being affected by the UK leaving. This is what the Irish Farmers Association are saying about trade between UK and Ireland:

Returning to Rowena Dwyer’s briefing note, it is important to understand that Ireland would not be able to negotiate its own trade agreement with the UK – this can only happen between the UK and the EU, of which Ireland is only 1 of 27 partners. In terms of what will be important in those negotiations for Ireland, Rowena has identified the following areas which our Government will need to focus on:

-Minimisation of any barrier to trade (tariffs, free movement, especially between ROI and NI)
Early agreement and certainty on the EU and CAP Budget up to 2020 – special attention needed for cross-border farms
Tax rules for purchases of inputs from UK (e.g. VAT)
Animal health standards (maintain comparable standards)
Guard against changes to labelling rules which could hamper trade between EU and UK.

The IFA are one of the best negotiating organisations in Europe (they set up an office in Brussels when Ireland joined the EEC, and have been camped there since). If they think there is no way around doing separate deals, there is no way around doing separate deals).
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Post by milkyboy Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:45 pm

Sin é wrote:Some interesting analysis from our old friends Rabo here ....

Brexit likely to inflate UK food prices

Regional Food & Agri

June 2016

The UK is a food importing country. Its isolation from the internal EU market after the Brexit is likely to increase its costs of sourcing food products, while it also increases the costs of the technology needed to produce food.

https://far.rabobank.com/en/sectors/regional-food-agri/Brexit-likely-to-inflate-UK-food-prices.html


It won't just be food, we're a net importer full stop... a trade deficit and a significant national debt. We'll have to pay more for our credit and investors will look elsewhere for safer havens for their money. So sterling goes low, and everything we buy-in goes up, food, clothes, tv's... leading to the risk of cost-push inflation. Good news for some exporters, not great for consumers. Project fear.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:47 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

Now what did he say?

That Scotland was really happy with the Leave result.

We're on the right track there - he isn't - but we are. Let's just say he'll put the UK higher up the list (if elected) than Obama will have any need to be concerned about.

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Post by JuliusHMarx Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:50 pm

SecretFly wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

Now what did he say?

That Scotland was really happy with the Leave result.

We're on the right track there - he isn't - but we are.  Let's just say he'll put the UK higher up the list (if elected) than Obama will have any need to be concerned about.

Assuming he is a) a man of his word b) he is capable of following through if he wants to.
I doubt both of those.

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Post by aja424 Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:52 pm

I'm confused.
Why would we want to spend the amount we do on eu membership only to receive far far less in return?
Some countries get back more than they put in so can see their obvious rationale.
Was wrong to promise all the money that we save on membership and put all of it into the NHS as there are other important things that also need funding. But I get the point that money saved in membership fees can be redirected within the uk rather than given away via Brussels.

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Post by dyrewolfe Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:53 pm

milkyboy wrote:
Sin é wrote:Some interesting analysis from our old friends Rabo here ....

Brexit likely to inflate UK food prices

Regional Food & Agri

June 2016

The UK is a food importing country. Its isolation from the internal EU market after the Brexit is likely to increase its costs of sourcing food products, while it also increases the costs of the technology needed to produce food.

https://far.rabobank.com/en/sectors/regional-food-agri/Brexit-likely-to-inflate-UK-food-prices.html


It won't just be food, we're a net importer full stop... a trade deficit and a significant national debt. We'll have to pay more for our credit and investors will look elsewhere for safer havens for their money. So sterling goes low, and everything we buy-in goes up, food, clothes, tv's... leading to the risk of cost-push inflation. Good news for some exporters, not great for consumers. Project fear.

That doesn't seem to be happening...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36648630


Pressure has eased on UK financial markets after two days of turmoil in the wake of the Brexit vote, with the FTSE 100 share index opening higher.

In mid-afternoon trading, the index was up 2.75% at 6,146.69, while the FTSE 250 had gained 3.3%.

The FTSE 100 lost 5.6% in the previous two trading sessions, while the more UK-focused FTSE 250 had slumped 13.7%.

The pound also showed signs of recovery, rising 1.2% against the dollar to $1.3382.

So while Sterling took a hit after the result of the vote was announced, things seem to be stabilising.

One of the things I hate about financial markets are that they are totally artificial, all based on forecasts, computer models and trends. As such they are very easy to manipulate or destabilise, based on insider info, or bad predictions.

I also hate that people can get stinking rich by simply playing what is, in essence, nothing more than a sophisticated guessing game. If you enjoy gambling, go to bloody Las Vegas!


Last edited by dyrewolfe on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:57 pm

Maybe because a load of people thought we would be leaving straight away and now we aren't; hopefully we will never be leaving.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:59 pm

milkyboy wrote:Merkel and the EU hierarchy might be saying no informal talks, but in the real world we know that's ballcocks. Of course they'll be talking... it's in their interests.

Unfortunately it's hard to see in the current circumstances why they would want to give us any kind of favourable deal. In principle as a key trading partner they'd like us onside but that's going to take a back seat. Their primary goal in current circumstances is creating barriers to exit for the rest of their membership.... and the best way to do that is to for brexit to be a disaster for britain.

It is in their interests not to talk at all - as it puts pressure on us to think hard about pressing the button because the future is so much more uncertain.

It is worth saying though that as we pay more than we get back directly they are going to have a hole in their budget without us. We do have a little leverage on them too

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Post by SecretFly Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:59 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

Now what did he say?

That Scotland was really happy with the Leave result.

We're on the right track there - he isn't - but we are.  Let's just say he'll put the UK higher up the list (if elected) than Obama will have any need to be concerned about.

Assuming he is a) a man of his word b) he is capable of following through if he wants to.
I doubt both of those.

So much doubt about the alternative future but always so much surety about the litany of gloom projected in these last number of days. The Gloom projection is always true, the hope is always just a fantasy.

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Post by milkyboy Tue 28 Jun 2016, 4:00 pm

it took a big hit and has steadied for a day dyrewolfe... we're 10% worse off than last thursday... i wouldn't be counting my chickens.

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Post by dyrewolfe Tue 28 Jun 2016, 4:03 pm

milkyboy wrote:it took a big hit and has steadied for a day dyrewolfe... we're 10% worse off than last thursday... i wouldn't be counting my chickens.


That works both ways milky. We have at least 2 years...maybe a lot more if the experts are right.

The exit process is going to be a long and convoluted one. Plenty of time for people and businesses to figure out what they want to do. Think this will be a gradual transition, rather than a jump off a cliff.
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Post by dyrewolfe Tue 28 Jun 2016, 4:09 pm

lostinwales wrote:
milkyboy wrote:Merkel and the EU hierarchy might be saying no informal talks, but in the real world we know that's ballcocks. Of course they'll be talking... it's in their interests.

Unfortunately it's hard to see in the current circumstances why they would want to give us any kind of favourable deal. In principle as a key trading partner they'd like us onside but that's going to take a back seat. Their primary goal in current circumstances is creating barriers to exit for the rest of their membership.... and the best way to do that is to for brexit to be a disaster for britain.

It is in their interests not to talk at all - as it puts pressure on us to think hard about pressing the button because the future is so much more uncertain.

It is worth saying though that as we pay more than we get back directly they are going to have a hole in their budget without us. We do have a little leverage on them too

We probably have leverage in other ways too, but every little helps. Wink


Thought this might be handy for those still not sure about the exit process:

The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 11 _90139433_uk_brexit_240616_624
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Post by lostinwales Tue 28 Jun 2016, 4:23 pm

Might be a gradual transition at some levels.

Still going to be tough going for a few years for most people, and I am not looking forward to it at all.

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Post by navyblueshorts Tue 28 Jun 2016, 4:24 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
milkyboy wrote:it took a big hit and has steadied for a day dyrewolfe... we're 10% worse off than last thursday... i wouldn't be counting my chickens.


That works both ways milky. We have at least 2 years...maybe a lot more if the experts are right.

The exit process is going to be a long and convoluted one. Plenty of time for people and businesses to figure out what they want to do. Think this will be a gradual transition, rather than a jump off a cliff.
So, experts are OK again now?
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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 28 Jun 2016, 4:43 pm

Vote of no confidence in Corbyn has been passed. Thank God!

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Post by milkyboy Tue 28 Jun 2016, 4:44 pm

It will be gradual dyrewolfe, we've had the inititial shock and there'll be plenty of ups and downs to come as always.

The market had priced in an element of Brexit fear for sometime. So although the rate shot up in Thursday and down on Friday... The forecasts I saw, picked sterling dollar to hit the mid 150's or higher after remain, ( where it was last autumn)... it's currently 134. That's a sizeable difference.

Some leadership and a clear plan might help settle it but the predictions of most are downward regardless. Doesn't mean the most are right of course.

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Post by milkyboy Tue 28 Jun 2016, 4:47 pm

lostinwales wrote:
milkyboy wrote:Merkel and the EU hierarchy might be saying no informal talks, but in the real world we know that's ballcocks. Of course they'll be talking... it's in their interests.

Unfortunately it's hard to see in the current circumstances why they would want to give us any kind of favourable deal. In principle as a key trading partner they'd like us onside but that's going to take a back seat. Their primary goal in current circumstances is creating barriers to exit for the rest of their membership.... and the best way to do that is to for brexit to be a disaster for britain.

It is in their interests not to talk at all - as it puts pressure on us to think hard about pressing the button because the future is so much more uncertain.

It is worth saying though that as we pay more than we get back directly they are going to have a hole in their budget without us. We do have a little leverage on them too

It's in their interests to play hardball in public. They'll be talking alright even if it's just to issue threats!

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Post by dyrewolfe Tue 28 Jun 2016, 4:59 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
milkyboy wrote:it took a big hit and has steadied for a day dyrewolfe... we're 10% worse off than last thursday... i wouldn't be counting my chickens.


That works both ways milky. We have at least 2 years...maybe a lot more if the experts are right.

The exit process is going to be a long and convoluted one. Plenty of time for people and businesses to figure out what they want to do. Think this will be a gradual transition, rather than a jump off a cliff.
So, experts are OK again now?

Rolling Eyes Did you notice my use of the words "if" and "maybe"?

Experts are only better off than us in that they can make more educated guesses. No guarantees they will be right.

For what its worth, my money is on negotiations stalling, with no extension agreed and EU treaties simply stop applying to us. We'll then be left with the undoubtedly tricky business of negotiating trade deals.
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Post by dyrewolfe Tue 28 Jun 2016, 5:04 pm

milkyboy wrote:It will be gradual dyrewolfe, we've had the inititial shock and there'll be plenty of ups and downs to come as always.

The market had priced in an element of Brexit fear for sometime. So although the rate shot up in Thursday and down on Friday... The forecasts I saw, picked sterling dollar to hit the mid 150's or higher after remain, ( where it was last autumn)... it's currently 134. That's a sizeable difference.

Some leadership and a clear plan might help settle it but the predictions of most are downward regardless. Doesn't mean the most are right of course.

Totally with you on that. The next few years are going to be interesting, one way or another, for sure.

As lostinwales said, there will likely be some short term pain for some, but I can't see its in anyone's interests in the long term to try and screw us over. I hope some degree of common sense prevails and that a compromise is reached that satisfies the needs of the EU to deter other countries from having their own referendums, while keeping us onside as a trading partner.

Thank god I'm not one of those that has to figure THAT out! Shocked
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Post by rodders Tue 28 Jun 2016, 5:07 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote: That would also apply on exports to US in the absence of a trade agreement (which Obama has commented on the UK would go to the bottom of the queue to negotiate).

How long more has Obama got?  Who now has a 50/50 chance of replacing him?  What did that candidate say?

Well Trump wants to scrap all US trade deals so don't be expecting much help from him.
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Post by Galted Tue 28 Jun 2016, 5:15 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
rodders wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


We already have a points system and we have higher numbers of non-eu migration, than eu.

Both countries have much higher rates of immigration per population than we do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate


Both countries are also FAR larger and have FAR LOWER population densities than the UK, so are capable of sustaining higher immigration levels. Please check ALL the facts before replying Wink

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density

UK ranked 53rd, Canada 230th and Australia 235th.

Our points system currently only applies to non-EU migrants as we have to accept free movement of EU citizens. Hopefully the new deal would see the points system apply to ALL migrants regardless. Which ought to have an effect with regard to lowering overall migration into the UK.
What rot. Yep, Canada and Australia are huge, but who the heck wants to live on 90% of their land mass? It's pretty uninhabitable for all but those with specialised kit. There's a geographical reason why large tracts of Canada and Australia are barely inhabited and I suspect the drivers for anyone in those inhospitable regions is there's significant natural wealth there i.e. opals in Aus. We are NOT packed out in the U.K.

And how do you know the same isn't true in Canada and Australia? Granted no-one (sane) would want to live in the outback, or some low-lying marshy bit of Canada, but even allowing for that I would guess they still have far more usable land for development than the UK has.

UK Population - 66 million
UK Land mass - 250,000 square km

Australian Population - 24 million
Australian Land mass - 7.6 million square km

Canadian Population - 33.7 million
Canadian Land mass - 10 million square km

Bit of a difference, eh? Even allowing for the uninhabitable / undesirable areas.

Plus desalination & irrigation schemes could make more parts of Aus habitable. Land reclamation / flood defence schemes could do the same for Canada. Expensive yes, but technically possible.

Apart from NIMBYs objecting to their rural villages turning into commuter towns, I suspect we're not far off. How else do you explain developers building housing estates on known flood plains and having to incorporate flood defence and land drainage measures into new developments? Why do you think land and housing prices are so much more expensive than many other countries?

My mate Doug lives in Canada, he says there's loads of space. He is only a little fella though.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 28 Jun 2016, 5:17 pm

rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote: That would also apply on exports to US in the absence of a trade agreement (which Obama has commented on the UK would go to the bottom of the queue to negotiate).

How long more has Obama got?  Who now has a 50/50 chance of replacing him?  What did that candidate say?

Well Trump wants to scrap all US trade deals so don't be expecting much help from him.

Well at least he might part-fund the Wall south of Newry Wink Just mention 'Wall' and he is always more open to investment in such progressive projects.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Tue 28 Jun 2016, 5:19 pm

An interesting article worth reading for a depressing insight on the state of many parts of Britain and why so many did vote to leave:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/liverpool-london-brexit-leave-eu-referendum

I'm not a fan of the Guardian but this seems to be a very accurate assessment of reality.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 28 Jun 2016, 5:26 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:An interesting article worth reading for a depressing insight on the state of many parts of Britain and why so many did vote to leave:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/liverpool-london-brexit-leave-eu-referendum

I'm not a fan of the Guardian but this seems to be a very accurate assessment of reality.

It is a good article. Lucky for those regions of the country devastated by Thatcher's government that the Leave vote combined with the Corbyn effect (both of which they voted for) pretty much guarantees us a good decade or so of right wing Tories favouring privatisation over public services.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 28 Jun 2016, 5:29 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:An interesting article worth reading for a depressing insight on the state of many parts of Britain and why so many did vote to leave:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/liverpool-london-brexit-leave-eu-referendum

I'm not a fan of the Guardian but this seems to be a very accurate assessment of reality.

But they get most money from the EU to be that run-down and poor, the ungrateful lot! Can't they understand that without the EU money they'll even be poorer still?

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Post by Guest Tue 28 Jun 2016, 5:33 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:An interesting article worth reading for a depressing insight on the state of many parts of Britain and why so many did vote to leave:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/liverpool-london-brexit-leave-eu-referendum

I'm not a fan of the Guardian but this seems to be a very accurate assessment of reality.

It is a good article. Lucky for those regions of the country devastated by Thatcher's government that the Leave vote combined with the Corbyn effect (both of which they voted for) pretty much guarantees us a good decade or so of right wing Tories favouring privatisation over public services.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't?

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Post by Sin é Tue 28 Jun 2016, 5:36 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:An interesting article worth reading for a depressing insight on the state of many parts of Britain and why so many did vote to leave:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/liverpool-london-brexit-leave-eu-referendum

I'm not a fan of the Guardian but this seems to be a very accurate assessment of reality.

But why is this the reality? People complain about lack of housing? Why are there streets boarded up?

Just so you know, I have every sympathy for these people, but they are jumping from the frying pan into the fire if they are looking for any improvements in their life relying on UK politics to offer a solution.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 28 Jun 2016, 5:46 pm

Sin é wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:An interesting article worth reading for a depressing insight on the state of many parts of Britain and why so many did vote to leave:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/liverpool-london-brexit-leave-eu-referendum

I'm not a fan of the Guardian but this seems to be a very accurate assessment of reality.

But why is this the reality? People complain about lack of housing? Why are there streets boarded up?

Just so you know, I have every sympathy for these people, but they are jumping from the frying pan into the fire if they are looking for any improvements in their life relying on UK politics to offer a solution.


Dear God, Sin.  Why are streets boarded up?  Do you need to go to England to ask that question?  I'll take you on a trip through Ireland Sin and show you the same sights - dirty rundown streets, with boarded up shops and buildings.  
You live in Dublin.  How often do people that live in Dublin journey outside for a look-see?  Not much it seems.... thus why political parties keep getting shocked when they see how vicious the attitude is towards them.  They live in their bubble of nightclubs and theatres and eateries and 'multi-cultural' colour and wonder why the masses keep biting at them on the doorsteps.

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Post by Sin é Tue 28 Jun 2016, 5:58 pm

Not sure what that rant is about Fly. I'm sure you are well aware I'm from Munster and have frequently spoken about how Limerick has some of the most deprived areas anywhere in Ireland (as an explanation as to why attendances are down in Thomond Park).

But, at least in Ireland, some attempts (prior to the crash) was made to regenerate these areas with a large dollop of EU funding.

Here is an article on EU funding to Liverpool alone.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/17-things-european-funding-done-10925208

Manchester
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/things-eu-done-for-manchester-11020085
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Post by stub Tue 28 Jun 2016, 6:05 pm

It is also the case that in the UK that attempts are made to regenerate areas using EU money but, for whatever reason, this does not seem to have endeared the EU to many of the people who live in those areas.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 28 Jun 2016, 6:11 pm

Sin é wrote:Not sure what that rant is about Fly. I'm sure you are well aware I'm from Munster and have frequently spoken about how Limerick has some of the most deprived areas anywhere in Ireland (as an explanation as to why attendances are down in Thomond Park).

But, at least in Ireland, some attempts (prior to the crash) was made to regenerate these areas with a large dollop of EU funding.

If that's your response then you do know what the 'rant' is about so stop pretending ignorance.  You ask questions about why there is tough times/poverty in the heart of England (where most Leavers came from) and fail to even attempt a pretty logical answer - or to draw any comparison in your own Nation until prompted.

As for 'Regeneration' - nope...you obviously don't go outside Dublin much.  Any regeneration that is coming is from the hard work of people themselves - the hearts of towns are still run down dirty places and the office blocks are still mostly empty.  And those shopping malls..................... oh yeah, they're the only places with the lights on - the multicultural spaces where international brands trade.

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Post by Sin é Tue 28 Jun 2016, 6:24 pm

I know full well how the whole EU co-funding thing works Fly having actually worked on or being involved in projects that were part funded by the EU.
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Post by Ent Tue 28 Jun 2016, 7:08 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:An interesting article worth reading for a depressing insight on the state of many parts of Britain and why so many did vote to leave:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/liverpool-london-brexit-leave-eu-referendum

I'm not a fan of the Guardian but this seems to be a very accurate assessment of reality.

Well this isn't reality, to be frank it's an absolutely crap article.

My friend says 90% of his course are Chinese - they could have easily sourced this info from the university.

This country has been ruined by immigrants, apart from London apparently which is shiny and awesome.

You'd think the author was freddy boswell, when in Salford did he happen to walk past the 5 star uefa stadium, media city, the regenerated quays (European regional fund...), Lowry theatre, new tram line, new Salford Royal hospital??

Yes pubs are closed as are local shops, life has changed (not necessarily for the better), people have more to do than sit in the local pub.

No doubt times are hard for some people but let's not pretend the whole north of England is a deprived hole.

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Post by milkyboy Tue 28 Jun 2016, 7:26 pm

stub wrote:It is also the case that in the UK that attempts are made to regenerate areas using EU money but, for whatever reason, this does not seem to have endeared the EU to many of the people who live in those areas.

I now live in a deprived northern s-hole.  It's a deprived northern s-hole with a lovely regenerated riverside, several shiny new footbridges and a smattering of large sculptures. The crackheads who reside there don't really notice it never mind know or care who paid for it.

I do sometimes wonder whether the bureaucrats vision of nirvana is always well matched to that of its target audience. A Gregg's warehouse and a new matalan might have been more gratefully received.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 28 Jun 2016, 7:30 pm

Sin é wrote:I know full well how the whole EU co-funding thing works Fly having actually worked on or being involved in projects that were part funded by the EU.

And I know the results....... money down the tubes and siphoned into directors and facilitators and planners and advisors and accountant's pockets.   10 bucks come in, it's driven through seven needless hands until 3 comes out to be perhaps used on a project that needs 7 Wink

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Tue 28 Jun 2016, 7:35 pm

Ent wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:An interesting article worth reading for a depressing insight on the state of many parts of Britain and why so many did vote to leave:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/liverpool-london-brexit-leave-eu-referendum

I'm not a fan of the Guardian but this seems to be a very accurate assessment of reality.

Well this isn't reality, to be frank it's an absolutely crap article.

My friend says 90% of his course are Chinese - they could have easily sourced this info from the university.

This country has been ruined by immigrants, apart from London apparently which is shiny and awesome.

You'd think the author was freddy boswell, when in Salford did he happen to walk past the 5 star uefa stadium, media city, the regenerated quays (European regional fund...), Lowry theatre, new tram line, new Salford Royal hospital??

Yes pubs are closed as are local shops, life has changed (not necessarily for the better), people have more to do than sit in the local pub.

No doubt times are hard for some people but let's not pretend the whole north of England is a deprived hole.

Spectacularly missing the point as always. OK

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Post by Ent Tue 28 Jun 2016, 7:36 pm

Good response, real thought provoking.

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Post by stub Tue 28 Jun 2016, 7:43 pm

milkyboy wrote:
stub wrote:It is also the case that in the UK that attempts are made to regenerate areas using EU money but, for whatever reason, this does not seem to have endeared the EU to many of the people who live in those areas.

I now live in a deprived northern s-hole.  It's a deprived northern s-hole with a lovely regenerated riverside, several shiny new footbridges and a smattering of large sculptures. The crackheads who reside there don't really notice it never mind know or care who paid for it.

I do sometimes wonder whether the bureaucrats vision of nirvana is always well matched to that of its target audience. A Gregg's warehouse and a new matalan might have been more gratefully received.

Regeneration in itself is not the complete solution - these projects need to go further than that I agree. That said it is a start if things begin to look better and the non-crackheads at least feel a bit prouder of their town..

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Post by SecretFly Tue 28 Jun 2016, 7:50 pm

milkyboy wrote:

I now live in a deprived northern s-hole.  It's a deprived northern s-hole with a lovely regenerated riverside, several shiny new footbridges and a smattering of large sculptures. The crackheads who reside there don't really notice it never mind know or care who paid for it.


Jesus Milky, I missed that. That's one of the most concise nail-on-the-head hitters I've seen in quite a while on these threads. Encapsulates a multitude. Wonderful stuff. OK

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Post by Guest Tue 28 Jun 2016, 7:58 pm

Ent wrote:Good response, real thought provoking.

He has a point.

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Post by Guest Tue 28 Jun 2016, 8:02 pm

stub wrote:
milkyboy wrote:
stub wrote:It is also the case that in the UK that attempts are made to regenerate areas using EU money but, for whatever reason, this does not seem to have endeared the EU to many of the people who live in those areas.

I now live in a deprived northern s-hole.  It's a deprived northern s-hole with a lovely regenerated riverside, several shiny new footbridges and a smattering of large sculptures. The crackheads who reside there don't really notice it never mind know or care who paid for it.

I do sometimes wonder whether the bureaucrats vision of nirvana is always well matched to that of its target audience. A Gregg's warehouse and a new matalan might have been more gratefully received.

Regeneration in itself is not the complete solution - these projects need to go further than that I agree. That said it is a start if things begin to look better and the non-crackheads at least feel a bit prouder of their town..

To have the crackheads feel better about the town they live in is a noble aim indeed. I'm thinking of starting a charity for crackheads to feel better about their surroundings. I'm sure people will give generously. They will know it's money well spent.

Sure, who needs jobs when we can all look at sparkly stuff?

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Post by stub Tue 28 Jun 2016, 8:09 pm

Munchkin wrote:
stub wrote:
milkyboy wrote:
stub wrote:It is also the case that in the UK that attempts are made to regenerate areas using EU money but, for whatever reason, this does not seem to have endeared the EU to many of the people who live in those areas.

I now live in a deprived northern s-hole.  It's a deprived northern s-hole with a lovely regenerated riverside, several shiny new footbridges and a smattering of large sculptures. The crackheads who reside there don't really notice it never mind know or care who paid for it.

I do sometimes wonder whether the bureaucrats vision of nirvana is always well matched to that of its target audience. A Gregg's warehouse and a new matalan might have been more gratefully received.

Regeneration in itself is not the complete solution - these projects need to go further than that I agree. That said it is a start if things begin to look better and the non-crackheads at least feel a bit prouder of their town..

To have the crackheads feel better about the town they live in is a noble aim indeed. I'm thinking of starting a charity for crackheads to feel better about their surroundings. I'm sure people will give generously. They will know it's money well spent.

Sure, who needs jobs when we can all look at sparkly stuff?

To be fair I did say non-crackheads! Wink

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Post by Guest Tue 28 Jun 2016, 8:13 pm

stub wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
stub wrote:
milkyboy wrote:
stub wrote:It is also the case that in the UK that attempts are made to regenerate areas using EU money but, for whatever reason, this does not seem to have endeared the EU to many of the people who live in those areas.

I now live in a deprived northern s-hole.  It's a deprived northern s-hole with a lovely regenerated riverside, several shiny new footbridges and a smattering of large sculptures. The crackheads who reside there don't really notice it never mind know or care who paid for it.

I do sometimes wonder whether the bureaucrats vision of nirvana is always well matched to that of its target audience. A Gregg's warehouse and a new matalan might have been more gratefully received.

Regeneration in itself is not the complete solution - these projects need to go further than that I agree. That said it is a start if things begin to look better and the non-crackheads at least feel a bit prouder of their town..

To have the crackheads feel better about the town they live in is a noble aim indeed. I'm thinking of starting a charity for crackheads to feel better about their surroundings. I'm sure people will give generously. They will know it's money well spent.

Sure, who needs jobs when we can all look at sparkly stuff?

To be fair I did say non-crackheads! Wink

True. Stuff the crackheads and the unemployed. Spend the tax payers money on nice things for the wealthy to appreciate.

I like a nice footpath  Very Happy

.... I'm sure the homeless appreciate a nice footpath as well, but who cares about them.


Last edited by Munchkin on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 8:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by SecretFly Tue 28 Jun 2016, 8:17 pm

Munchkin wrote:

I like a nice footpath  Very Happy


With a EU funded statue in the middle of it - don't forget the statue, it's part of the funding price anyway so you might as well have it.

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Post by stub Tue 28 Jun 2016, 8:23 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

I like a nice footpath  Very Happy


With a EU funded statue in the middle of it - don't forget the statue, it's part of the funding price anyway so you might as well have it.  

I now have path and statue envy.

Thanks.

But in all seriousness there is value in making places look and feel better - not necessarily sparkly but better. In some places these improvements might even attract visitors. Perhaps they will spend a bit of money and jobs will be created? Probably not in milky's town though - I expect the crackheads would scare the tourists.

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