The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

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Post by Electric Demon on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 6:17 pm

First topic message reminder :

It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.


Last edited by Cassius Zhi on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Changes "intelligence" to "experts" as that was very poor choice of words)

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:14 am

"The £350m is a damned lie!!!! - You voted for a lie!"
"Oh no I didn't. I voted to End Immigration - I'm happy".

"The End of Immigration is a lie! - You voted for a lie!"
"Oh no I didn't. I voted for an extra £350m."

"They're both Lies!!!!!!!! YOU - VOTED - FOR - LIES!
"So what's new?"

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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:14 am

temporary21 wrote:Then vote liberal democrat    That's who I vote for. I doubt they ate a serious contender though


I don't think they need to resort to cannibalism just yet!

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Post by temporary21 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:18 am

Anyway I've gotta get back to work. Life moves on, we all should too. You can't do anything by panicking. Just wait for the gen election

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:20 am

ShahenshahG wrote:
temporary21 wrote:Then vote liberal democrat    That's who I vote for. I doubt they ate a serious contender though


I don't think they need to resort to cannibalism just yet!

Hmmm, Tom Watson looks seriously tempted when you see him looking at Jeremy. But I guess when he thinks about how much meat loses volume when cooked, it wouldn't be worth cooking Corbyn - there'd be little left.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:21 am

I'd still think it was massively the wrong decision. Not really sure why you think I haven't accepted the result; I'm not saying it's fraudulent.

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Post by Coxy001 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:23 am

SecretFly wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
temporary21 wrote:Then vote liberal democrat    That's who I vote for. I doubt they ate a serious contender though


I don't think they need to resort to cannibalism just yet!

Hmmm, Tom Watson looks seriously tempted when you see him looking at Jeremy.  But I guess when he thinks about how much meat loses volume when cooked, it wouldn't be worth cooking Corbyn - there'd be little left.

Watson just looks like the angriest man alive.

This could all work out really, really well - Brexit doesn't happen, Labour cease to exist as Jez takes them down the road to a place where only 300,000 or so vote for him and get wiped out. Only problem is UKIP *shudder*. Still, in Tim Flamon/Flange/Fallonge (what'shisname) the lib dems are a viable opposition...

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:26 am

temporary21 wrote:Then you had better vote fit whatever party fits your bill in the general election. But if they don't get in. Would you finally accept the democratic vote?

Corbyn was elected to lead his party based on a democratic vote. Look how well that one is going.

This is a huge change. The best ways to leave but retain the 'good bits' all involve keeping the bad bits we didnt want and will mean we have less influence in Europe. I honestly don't know what the best way to handle things from here (who does?) but the vote was tight and the information flow from both sides very poor up til the day after the referendum. There is no massive endorsement of one side or the other, just a lot of people peed off with the government (and the EU) and an almost total power vacuum at the top of British politics

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:31 am

SecretFly wrote:"The £350m is a damned lie!!!! - You voted for a lie!"
"Oh no I didn't.  I voted to End Immigration - I'm happy".

"The End of Immigration is a lie! - You voted for a lie!"
"Oh no I didn't.  I voted for an extra £350m."

"They're both Lies!!!!!!!!  YOU - VOTED - FOR - LIES!
"So what's new?"

We should just go for a telephone vote next time. Quicker, easier and just as accurate...

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:36 am

temporary21 wrote:Then vote liberal democrat    That's who I vote for. I doubt they ate a serious contender though


Me too - I'm a member. Lib Dem fortunes rest heavily on whether Corbyn can cling to power. If he does, I think the Lib Dems will see a surge in support as the only genuinely pro-European party. If Farron is smart, still to be proven, he'll make a massive play for the younger vote. He needs to quickly distance himself from Clegg's fatal mistake of increasing tuition fees in coalition government. I rate Clegg highly, but that was a killer.

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:37 am

lostinwales wrote:We should just go for a telephone vote next time. Quicker, easier and just as accurate...

What about the red button !!!!!!!!!!!!! we cannot rule that one out, or an APP. Laugh

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:38 am

I think the best thing the UK could hope for now is for another Nation to prove its sceptic credentials - there are elections in France next year I think?  

If another Nation stepped up and announced an electorate disillusionment with the EU - I think that would be the very best for all - as the EU would then undoubtedly be forced to finally accept an inevitability - serious regressive reform to save the concept.  That would leave open a gateway for the UK to step back into the ring.  And if preliminary talks about what that Reform would entail were successful, the UK might be encouraged to put another referendum to its people before having fully left at all.

A Brand New Leaner EU, downsized and dynamic for a modern world Wink

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:43 am

lostinwales wrote:

We should just go for a telephone vote next time. Quicker, easier and just as accurate...

Correct, Simon Cowell should be in charge of all future election shows in the UK.  Consider the ratings - it's a certain hit.

"Also not being elected tonight IS........................... drumroll ...................................................................
.........................................................
......................................................
......................................

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:45 am

..we'll tell you after the break.

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Post by Sin é on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:49 am

temporary21 wrote:You have to consider what you're saying though. You want to ignore a democratic vote because you make assumptions about what leave voters are like

That would be the rise of ukip as a parliamentary force. Which is the worst thing imaginable


The Leave (and the Remain) side told lies.

How is basing a vote on lies democracy?

Just as an aside - in Ireland we have a Referendum Commission http://www.refcom.ie/en/

In brief, this is what they do:

The Referendum Commission is an independent body that explains the subject matter of referendum proposals, promotes public awareness of a referendum, and encourages the electorate to vote. It is open to the Minister for Environment, Community and Local Government to appoint a Commission any time a referendum is to be held.

Prior to a referendum, each household/voter is sent a booklet with all the pros and cons of a yes/no vote. When it comes to debate on on the state broadcaster, both sides have to get an equal amount of time (down to minutes) to promote their view.

Do you have something like this in the UK?

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:57 am

Sin é wrote:
temporary21 wrote:You have to consider what you're saying though. You want to ignore a democratic vote because you make assumptions about what leave voters are like

That would be the rise of ukip as a parliamentary force. Which is the worst thing imaginable


The Leave (and the Remain) side told lies.

How is basing a vote on lies democracy?

Just as an aside - in Ireland we have a Referendum Commission   http://www.refcom.ie/en/

In brief, this is what they do:

The Referendum Commission is an independent body that explains the subject matter of referendum proposals, promotes public awareness of a referendum, and encourages the electorate to vote. It is open to the Minister for Environment, Community and Local Government to appoint a Commission any time a referendum is to be held.

Prior to a referendum, each household/voter is sent a booklet with all the pros and cons of a yes/no vote. When it comes to debate on on the state broadcaster, both sides have to get an equal amount of time (down to minutes) to promote their view.

Do you have something like this in the UK?


We do indeed have an electoral commission who have roughly the same job, including allocating funds to the campaigners on each side of the referendum. If we were in Corbyn's ideal new world they should be amongst the first to be lined up against a wall and shot.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:00 am

lostinwales wrote:

We do indeed have an electoral commission who have roughly the same job, including allocating funds to the campaigners on each side of the referendum. If we were in Corbyn's ideal new world they should be amongst the first to be lined up against a wall and shot.

At least he's giving time for the professional classes, teachers, authors, professors, conscientious objectors etc to...........RUN! Run

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:00 am

SecretFly wrote:I think the best thing the UK could hope for now is for another Nation to prove its sceptic credentials - there are elections in France next year I think?  

If another Nation stepped up and announced an electorate disillusionment with the EU - I think that would be the very best for all - as the EU would then undoubtedly be forced to finally accept an inevitability - serious regressive reform to save the concept.  That would leave open a gateway for the UK to step back into the ring.  And if preliminary talks about what that Reform would entail were successful, the UK might be encouraged to put another referendum to its people before having fully left at all.

A Brand New Leaner EU, downsized and dynamic for a modern world Wink

For you that is worryingly rational and even more worryingly I could live with that

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Post by rodders on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:03 am

Relax everyone the UK isn't leaving the EU.

May or Boris will be the next prime minister and neither will invoke article 50 in a million years.

Get ready for a General election in the new year.
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Post by Sin é on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:03 am

Its different. The Irish one only deals with Referenda. The UK one has a much wider brief.

By the way, most people complain about them because they are so boring - only factual information allowed - no opinion whatsoever.


Last edited by Sin é on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Sin é on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:06 am

SecretFly wrote:I think the best thing the UK could hope for now is for another Nation to prove its sceptic credentials - there are elections in France next year I think?  

If another Nation stepped up and announced an electorate disillusionment with the EU - I think that would be the very best for all - as the EU would then undoubtedly be forced to finally accept an inevitability - serious regressive reform to save the concept.  That would leave open a gateway for the UK to step back into the ring.  And if preliminary talks about what that Reform would entail were successful, the UK might be encouraged to put another referendum to its people before having fully left at all.

A Brand New Leaner EU, downsized and dynamic for a modern world Wink

Well, France are not going to leave the EU. They can't wait to see the back of England/Wales.
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:09 am

lostinwales wrote:

For you that is worryingly rational and even more worryingly I could live with that

I only mess around and act the maggot 3/4 of the time.... the other 1/4 I'm always ultra serious.  Problem is I usually mix both sides up in the same sentences Wink  Why try to make life easy for people? - I ain't Corbyn. Cool

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Post by rodders on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:10 am

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:I think the best thing the UK could hope for now is for another Nation to prove its sceptic credentials - there are elections in France next year I think?  

If another Nation stepped up and announced an electorate disillusionment with the EU - I think that would be the very best for all - as the EU would then undoubtedly be forced to finally accept an inevitability - serious regressive reform to save the concept.  That would leave open a gateway for the UK to step back into the ring.  And if preliminary talks about what that Reform would entail were successful, the UK might be encouraged to put another referendum to its people before having fully left at all.

A Brand New Leaner EU, downsized and dynamic for a modern world Wink

Well, France are not going to leave the EU. They can't wait to see the back of England/Wales.

Yup but isn't the French presidential election next year and the German Election?
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:15 am

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:I think the best thing the UK could hope for now is for another Nation to prove its sceptic credentials - there are elections in France next year I think?  

If another Nation stepped up and announced an electorate disillusionment with the EU - I think that would be the very best for all - as the EU would then undoubtedly be forced to finally accept an inevitability - serious regressive reform to save the concept.  That would leave open a gateway for the UK to step back into the ring.  And if preliminary talks about what that Reform would entail were successful, the UK might be encouraged to put another referendum to its people before having fully left at all.

A Brand New Leaner EU, downsized and dynamic for a modern world Wink

Well, France are not going to leave the EU. They can't wait to see the back of England/Wales.

You're such an EU soldier Sin! I'm going to have to get that out of you some way Wink Being in the EU does not necessarily mean you are obedient to the path the EU are taking.

Why is it that so many of you Europhiles don't see that? It's possible to be pro-Euro-Something without having any love for the current administrative model.

That very idea spooks the hell out of current Europhile politicians and voters. I love that. I love the uneasiness. The EU can change dramatically - all it needs is a nice few National populations demanding it.

The show has started, Sin. Join the revolutionaries Wink

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:19 am

SecretFly wrote:
lostinwales wrote:

We should just go for a telephone vote next time. Quicker, easier and just as accurate...

Correct, Simon Cowell should be in charge of all future election shows in the UK.  Consider the ratings - it's a certain hit.

"Also not being elected tonight IS........................... drumroll ...................................................................
.........................................................
......................................................
......................................

Don't joke. If this was the US the election would be between Alan Sugar (Tories), Simon Cowell (UKIP), Noel Edmonds (Labour) and Chris Tarrant (Lib Dem).

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:22 am

Jesus!

I'll keep my mouth closed then! Even I don't want that much of a circus!

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Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:26 am

Think May will walk this, while the others self implode, she looks like the only credible candidate. Media going to town on Gove stating he isn't equipped to be PM back in 2012 & him stating he wouldn't go for the PM job, during the referendum campaign. Boris is just an entertainment figure, this self-absorbed clown has no plan & people already distancing themselves. Crabb & Leadsom have no chance.

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:27 am

SecretFly wrote:
lostinwales wrote:

For you that is worryingly rational and even more worryingly I could live with that

I only mess around and act the maggot 3/4 of the time.... the other 1/4 I'm always ultra serious.  Problem is I usually mix both sides up in the same sentences Wink  Why try to make life easy for people? - I ain't Corbyn. Cool

I know mate. It just takes a little while to get used to you and I have been through that pain Hug

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Post by rodders on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:30 am

LiamB wrote:Think May will walk this

But how will she fair against Jeremy?
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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:33 am

LiamB wrote:Think May will walk this, while the others self implode, she looks like the only credible candidate. Media going to town on Gove stating he isn't equipped to be PM back in 2012 & him stating he wouldn't go for the PM job, during the referendum campaign. Boris is just an entertainment figure, this self-absorbed clown has no plan & people already distancing themselves. Crabb & Leadsom have no chance.

I think she will win as well. I had previously assumed that Boris would cruise home, but Gove declaring his candidacy, and in doing so vocally criticising Boris, is an absolute game changer.

Gove isn't in this to win. He's announced solely in order to torpedo Boris. This may seem strange given their uneasy alliance over the last few months, but Gove is, if nothing else, a man with the courage of his convictions and I genuinely believe that he doesn't think Boris is fit to lead. By splintering the already splintered Eurosceptic Tories (with Liam Fox), and with May scooping up the Tory Remainers (plus a few Leavers I suspect with her comments this morning on free movement), I think May now has a clear path. She'll be able to do a deal with Crabb pretty quickly. He's an ambitious man and only in this to enhance his reputation for next time.

I still find it extremely odd that May, who campaigned for Remain, will be the PM to invoke Article 50, despite not believing it to be the right thing for the country. I guess that's modern leadership for you.

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:34 am

rodders wrote:
LiamB wrote:Think May will walk this

But how will she fair against Jeremy?

Which one...

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Post by Lowlandbrit on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:35 am

rodders wrote:Yup but isn't the French presidential election next year and the German Election?
Dutch election too, all of which is why most countries have generally been a lot softer in their responses to this than the European politicians in Brussels.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:38 am

rodders wrote:
LiamB wrote:Think May will walk this

But how will she fair against Jeremy?

If he is still leader I would predict a Tory landslide, with Corbyn neatly folded into her handbag by election day with a stiletto heal mark on his head.

The real question would be whether Labour would be able to hang onto the title of official opposition. Lib Dems would steal a bunch of Labour seats (and I'd predict a number of Labour MPs would defect to the Lib Dems, or split from the Labour party to create a "New Labour" alternative) and the SNP would continue its complete monopoly in Scotland (and would probably gain the sole Labour seat as well).

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Post by rodders on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:40 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
I still find it extremely odd that May, who campaigned for Remain, will be the PM to invoke Article 50, despite not believing it to be the right thing for the country. I guess that's modern leadership for you.

There are only 2 politicians in Britain who would genuinely invoke article 50 - Farraige and Jeremy Corbyn.

The fact that all these senior Tory figures are turning on each other now shows that irrespective of where they sat in the referendum, they were really only concerned about their own political aspirations to be the next leader and very little about how they stood on Europe.

With that in mind I seriously doubt any of them genuinely plan to invoke article 50.
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Post by rodders on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:45 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
rodders wrote:
LiamB wrote:Think May will walk this

But how will she fair against Jeremy?

If he is still leader I would predict a Tory landslide

I don't - I think the Tories could well hemorrhage votes both right to UKIP and left to Labour if Corbyn can hang on.

There's also the looming threat of a Scottish referendum to contend with.

This referendum shows that the country is very split with the vast majority of England fed up with the status quo so the protest vote is up for grabs.
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:48 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
I still find it extremely odd that May, who campaigned for Remain, will be the PM to invoke Article 50, despite not believing it to be the right thing for the country. I guess that's modern leadership for you.

All things being equal - and using the logic of what you've said - that's why there was absolutely no need for Cameron to step away, as he would have been the best man to lead the UK through, plus offering the stability symbol that the markets always like.

He campaigned for Remain.  But he had already marked his card and I've certainly heard him in the past tell Europe that he wouldn't be afraid to lead the UK through either outcome, that his loyalty was to the voice of the people.

So he asked his people - and they gave their voice, and he should have stayed in position to do the work.  I truly think he'll regret that decision on a personal level.  He had not lost the support of the voters that made him Prime Minister, they merely didn't agree with him on the EU.  It happens all the time, the electorate don't agree with you.  But he had his mandate to be Prime Minister of the UK.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:50 am

rodders wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
I still find it extremely odd that May, who campaigned for Remain, will be the PM to invoke Article 50, despite not believing it to be the right thing for the country. I guess that's modern leadership for you.

There are only 2 politicians in Britain who would genuinely invoke article 50 - Farraige and Jeremy Corbyn.

The fact that all these senior Tory figures are turning on each other now shows that irrespective of where they sat in the referendum, they were really only concerned about their own political aspirations to be the next leader and very little about how they stood on Europe.

With that in mind I seriously doubt any of them genuinely plan to invoke article 50.

May has already said she'd invoke Article 50 and has ruled out free movement as an option. She is also going to drop her call for Britain to withdraw from the ECHR.

She's quite the political chameleon.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:51 am

She's not going to make it. I've got a feeling this stunt they pulled with the whips has cost may her shot.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:53 am

ShahenshahG wrote:She's not going to make it. I've got a feeling this stunt they pulled with the whips has cost may her shot.


??? Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked


Do tell!

Why hasn't Tom Watson mentioned this yet?

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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:55 am

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tory-leadership-race-protest-over-whips-strongarming-mps-into-voting-against-boris-johnson-a3282816.html%3famp?client=ms-android-h3g-gb#

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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 11:57 am

SecretFly wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:She's not going to make it. I've got a feeling this stunt they pulled with the whips has cost may her shot.


??? Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked


Do tell!

Why hasn't Tom Watson mentioned this yet?

I think he was at Glastonbury at the time the fat Chris Evans.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 12:00 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tory-leadership-race-protest-over-whips-strongarming-mps-into-voting-against-boris-johnson-a3282816.html%3famp?client=ms-android-h3g-gb#

Ah, only a Westminster thing? I thought it was a top-shelfer.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 12:00 pm

Haha. Yuck.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 12:01 pm

rodders wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
rodders wrote:
LiamB wrote:Think May will walk this

But how will she fair against Jeremy?

If he is still leader I would predict a Tory landslide

I don't - I think the Tories could well hemorrhage votes both right to UKIP and left to Labour if Corbyn can hang on.

There's also the looming threat of a Scottish referendum to contend with.

This referendum shows that the country is very split with the vast majority of England fed up with the status quo so the protest vote is up for grabs.  

No chance they'll lose votes to UKIP. May, now the favourite for PM, has reversed her Remain credentials in a matter of days and is not firmly in the Brexit camp, so whether it be Gove or May, the Tories will be seeking a mandate to invoke Article 50 and crack on with Brexit. UKIP has therefore served its purpose and by continuing would only weaken the drive for Brexit (by drawing votes away from the Tories).

As for Labour, again, no chance. How could the Tories lose votes to the left which they never had?? Corbyn will harden the left in his favour, possibly mobilising a few radicals who haven't voted before, or who stayed away under the more moderate New Labour years, but in electoral terms Labour will be wiped out. He had probably hoped to be able to count on a younger generation of voters who may be drawn to his "new way of doing things", but he has not proven himself to be effective in politics, and his stance (and that of his very close knit set of advisers) on Brexit will be a major turn-off for a group of voters who backed Remain massively. In short, the die-hard Labour voters who voted for "Red Ed" will of course continue to back Corbyn, but we know that this group doesn't come close to giving Labour enough votes to exercise any influence.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 12:03 pm

Boris has pulled out. Not a bad day's work Mr Gove, and congratulations Theresa May.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 12:07 pm

Lol out loud.

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Post by rodders on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 12:08 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
May has already said she'd invoke Article 50

So did David Cameron.

Wait and see, there's more twists to come....'
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 12:10 pm

Boris pulled out very quick.

What's he up to?

They better keep even a closer eye on him now.  He'll be a parrot on some candidate's lap surely.

Gove will have to reward him for ................. em...pulling out.

He's now chief Exit negotiator in-chief commander.

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Post by Coxy001 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 12:13 pm

Wow, didn't see that one coming.

Will May press the button though?

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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 12:15 pm

Dear God. Boris has just pulled himself out of the hole Cameron put him in. You sneak b@stard Hahahahah! Boris will run for 2020!

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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 12:16 pm

He's passed the bloody buck to Gove/may. You utter sneak!

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