The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

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Post by Electric Demon on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 6:17 pm

First topic message reminder :

It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.


Last edited by Cassius Zhi on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Changes "intelligence" to "experts" as that was very poor choice of words)

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Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:26 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Coxy001 wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This is good news, and, I suspect, what was probably foreseen in the first place. Boris et al can now sit back and bask in their limited glory.

A strong PM is now needed to basically tell the EU committee (NOT EUROPEANS) to GTF with any proposed trade charges. Germany will absolutely not impose tariffs on the UK.

I see that India, the US, Mexico, Canada, Oz & NZ to name but a few, are already trying to move forward with a trade deal.

India would be good - what is it? 10 times the size of Europe? India - who's own trade deal with the EU has been stalling for a few years because of these cretins in Brussels???

Good times ahead.

Dear god.

10 times the size of the EU?!?! So bloody what?! Do you have any idea how much poverty there is in India? Oh and btw the way the Indian economy is around 1/10th of the EU.

And last time I checked we 47% of our exports go to the EU. The same EU have said that if we want access to the single market we have to play by their rules. And Merkel has said that VERY clearly - She will NOT suddenly give us free access to the single market. If we don't adopt EU laws/movement/etc then they will very simply impose tarriffs. This isn't hard to figure out.

So yes it's great times ahead that all those Indians will be wanting £70k BMWs Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  picard

Whichever way you look at it, it does strengthen the UK's hand in negotiating with the EU. May taking over as leader would also be a big plus. Not that I like her very much, but she would provide strong leadership. The same can't be said of Boris or Gove, the latter probably dropping out once a deal is done.

Does it? It's the ideal opportunity for countries to take advantage of us while we're desperate.

Well, yes. The more nations outside of EU wanting to negotiate trade deals with the UK, the more it strengthens the hand of the Uk in dealing with the EU. Or, to put it another way; the more others want to deal with the UK, the less desperate the UK will be.

There's never been a shortage of people wanting to trade with us. The benefit of the eu was that people wanted to trade with us and were willing to give concessions. Reasoning that a small loss was worth the acces to the market from the UK. The problem is the loss of those concessions will cost us dearly if we take them up on their offers now. Obviously no one is going to turn down a billion pound market if it's there for the taking. We just can't negotiate with the same power.

My point being that the UK, post Brexit, can still attract global markets, and survive outside of the EU. The more other nations, outside of EU, propose trade deals, the stronger the UK's hand in negotiations with the EU. Not that I think the economy is better served outside of the EU, just that there is a viable alternative.

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Post by Coxy001 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:27 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
Coxy001 wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This is good news, and, I suspect, what was probably foreseen in the first place. Boris et al can now sit back and bask in their limited glory.

A strong PM is now needed to basically tell the EU committee (NOT EUROPEANS) to GTF with any proposed trade charges. Germany will absolutely not impose tariffs on the UK.

I see that India, the US, Mexico, Canada, Oz & NZ to name but a few, are already trying to move forward with a trade deal.

India would be good - what is it? 10 times the size of Europe? India - who's own trade deal with the EU has been stalling for a few years because of these cretins in Brussels???

Good times ahead.

Dear god.

10 times the size of the EU?!?! So bloody what?! Do you have any idea how much poverty there is in India? Oh and btw the way the Indian economy is around 1/10th of the EU.

And last time I checked we 47% of our exports go to the EU. The same EU have said that if we want access to the single market we have to play by their rules. And Merkel has said that VERY clearly - She will NOT suddenly give us free access to the single market. If we don't adopt EU laws/movement/etc then they will very simply impose tarriffs. This isn't hard to figure out.

So yes it's great times ahead that all those Indians will be wanting £70k BMWs Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  picard

oops....forgot there was no poverty in Europe and that they are absolutely booming!! Oh and nice ignorance of the other countries I mentioned.

I bow to your vast knowledge and expertise, but if you can spare a few minutes from making millions, watch Daniel Hannans' speech at the Oxford Union prior to the vote.

47% exported to one market.

That's quite a big clusterfu*k if we were in any way to have our competitiveness harmed.

Oh and by the way. Oz/NZ/Canada and Mexico have combined economies that are around 1/4th the size of the EU. And the EU "only" exports to America to the tune of around 15% or so.

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:29 pm

47% of what?

15% of what?

Percentages are nice, but 47% of f**k all is f**k all.

Show me the money (and source).

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Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:30 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Coxy001 wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This is good news, and, I suspect, what was probably foreseen in the first place. Boris et al can now sit back and bask in their limited glory.

A strong PM is now needed to basically tell the EU committee (NOT EUROPEANS) to GTF with any proposed trade charges. Germany will absolutely not impose tariffs on the UK.

I see that India, the US, Mexico, Canada, Oz & NZ to name but a few, are already trying to move forward with a trade deal.

India would be good - what is it? 10 times the size of Europe? India - who's own trade deal with the EU has been stalling for a few years because of these cretins in Brussels???

Good times ahead.

Dear god.

10 times the size of the EU?!?! So bloody what?! Do you have any idea how much poverty there is in India? Oh and btw the way the Indian economy is around 1/10th of the EU.

And last time I checked we 47% of our exports go to the EU. The same EU have said that if we want access to the single market we have to play by their rules. And Merkel has said that VERY clearly - She will NOT suddenly give us free access to the single market. If we don't adopt EU laws/movement/etc then they will very simply impose tarriffs. This isn't hard to figure out.

So yes it's great times ahead that all those Indians will be wanting £70k BMWs Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  picard

Whichever way you look at it, it does strengthen the UK's hand in negotiating with the EU. May taking over as leader would also be a big plus. Not that I like her very much, but she would provide strong leadership. The same can't be said of Boris or Gove, the latter probably dropping out once a deal is done.

Does it? It's the ideal opportunity for countries to take advantage of us while we're desperate.

Well, yes. The more nations outside of EU wanting to negotiate trade deals with the UK, the more it strengthens the hand of the Uk in dealing with the EU. Or, to put it another way; the more others want to deal with the UK, the less desperate the UK will be.

I don't think it will make any difference (other than that the UK will have some export markets).

I see China are not pleased about Brexit. They were using the UK to try and get a deal with the EU who won't give them favourable terms unless they sort out their Human Rights. It seems China are also going to use Brexit as an example how democracy does not work Smile


China isn't alone in not being happy about the Brexit, but China won't turn down trade deals with the UK because of it. That's the point.

Considering the level of China's human rights abuses, China would be well advised not to criticise democracy.


Last edited by Munchkin on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Sin é on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:30 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
Coxy001 wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This is good news, and, I suspect, what was probably foreseen in the first place. Boris et al can now sit back and bask in their limited glory.

A strong PM is now needed to basically tell the EU committee (NOT EUROPEANS) to GTF with any proposed trade charges. Germany will absolutely not impose tariffs on the UK.

I see that India, the US, Mexico, Canada, Oz & NZ to name but a few, are already trying to move forward with a trade deal.

India would be good - what is it? 10 times the size of Europe? India - who's own trade deal with the EU has been stalling for a few years because of these cretins in Brussels???

Good times ahead.

Dear god.

10 times the size of the EU?!?! So bloody what?! Do you have any idea how much poverty there is in India? Oh and btw the way the Indian economy is around 1/10th of the EU.

And last time I checked we 47% of our exports go to the EU. The same EU have said that if we want access to the single market we have to play by their rules. And Merkel has said that VERY clearly - She will NOT suddenly give us free access to the single market. If we don't adopt EU laws/movement/etc then they will very simply impose tarriffs. This isn't hard to figure out.

So yes it's great times ahead that all those Indians will be wanting £70k BMWs Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  picard

oops....forgot there was no poverty in Europe and that they are absolutely booming!! Oh and nice ignorance of the other countries I mentioned.

I bow to your vast knowledge and expertise, but if you can spare a few minutes from making millions, watch Daniel Hannans' speech at the Oxford Union prior to the vote.

And to add....

I know all about the poverty in India, as I spent quite a bit of time there, whereas I expect you haven't due to never leaving your bedroom.

Oh by the way, BMWs don't cost as much there as they do here.

Just bear in mind that India will want a deal that works for both Wink

Wasn't cheap imports of Indian steel into the EU a cause for much angst for many of the Britexiters? Tata Steel is an Indian company.

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:36 pm

Sin é wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
Coxy001 wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This is good news, and, I suspect, what was probably foreseen in the first place. Boris et al can now sit back and bask in their limited glory.

A strong PM is now needed to basically tell the EU committee (NOT EUROPEANS) to GTF with any proposed trade charges. Germany will absolutely not impose tariffs on the UK.

I see that India, the US, Mexico, Canada, Oz & NZ to name but a few, are already trying to move forward with a trade deal.

India would be good - what is it? 10 times the size of Europe? India - who's own trade deal with the EU has been stalling for a few years because of these cretins in Brussels???

Good times ahead.

Dear god.

10 times the size of the EU?!?! So bloody what?! Do you have any idea how much poverty there is in India? Oh and btw the way the Indian economy is around 1/10th of the EU.

And last time I checked we 47% of our exports go to the EU. The same EU have said that if we want access to the single market we have to play by their rules. And Merkel has said that VERY clearly - She will NOT suddenly give us free access to the single market. If we don't adopt EU laws/movement/etc then they will very simply impose tarriffs. This isn't hard to figure out.

So yes it's great times ahead that all those Indians will be wanting £70k BMWs Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  picard

oops....forgot there was no poverty in Europe and that they are absolutely booming!! Oh and nice ignorance of the other countries I mentioned.

I bow to your vast knowledge and expertise, but if you can spare a few minutes from making millions, watch Daniel Hannans' speech at the Oxford Union prior to the vote.

And to add....

I know all about the poverty in India, as I spent quite a bit of time there, whereas I expect you haven't due to never leaving your bedroom.

Oh by the way, BMWs don't cost as much there as they do here.

Just bear in mind that India will want a deal that works for both Wink  

Wasn't cheap imports of Indian steel into the EU a cause for much angst for many of the Britexiters? Tata Steel is an Indian company.


tata steel is an indian company but it has also owned the bulk of UK steel production. It has been looking to sell its UK plants for a while. I believe that Chinese steel is more of a problem.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:38 pm

Sin é wrote: It seems China are also going to use Brexit as an example how democracy does not work Smile


The EU is already working on approaching a Chinese 'Productivity' model anyway - Rule by officials undisturbed by an electorate; who are kept away from the mechanism by erecting the pretend chat-house called the Parliament.

China is the blueprint....even before Brexit. Democracy is a nuisance - it gets in the way of progress.

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Post by Sin é on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:41 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Coxy001 wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This is good news, and, I suspect, what was probably foreseen in the first place. Boris et al can now sit back and bask in their limited glory.

A strong PM is now needed to basically tell the EU committee (NOT EUROPEANS) to GTF with any proposed trade charges. Germany will absolutely not impose tariffs on the UK.

I see that India, the US, Mexico, Canada, Oz & NZ to name but a few, are already trying to move forward with a trade deal.

India would be good - what is it? 10 times the size of Europe? India - who's own trade deal with the EU has been stalling for a few years because of these cretins in Brussels???

Good times ahead.

Dear god.

10 times the size of the EU?!?! So bloody what?! Do you have any idea how much poverty there is in India? Oh and btw the way the Indian economy is around 1/10th of the EU.

And last time I checked we 47% of our exports go to the EU. The same EU have said that if we want access to the single market we have to play by their rules. And Merkel has said that VERY clearly - She will NOT suddenly give us free access to the single market. If we don't adopt EU laws/movement/etc then they will very simply impose tarriffs. This isn't hard to figure out.

So yes it's great times ahead that all those Indians will be wanting £70k BMWs Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  picard

Whichever way you look at it, it does strengthen the UK's hand in negotiating with the EU. May taking over as leader would also be a big plus. Not that I like her very much, but she would provide strong leadership. The same can't be said of Boris or Gove, the latter probably dropping out once a deal is done.

Does it? It's the ideal opportunity for countries to take advantage of us while we're desperate.

Well, yes. The more nations outside of EU wanting to negotiate trade deals with the UK, the more it strengthens the hand of the Uk in dealing with the EU. Or, to put it another way; the more others want to deal with the UK, the less desperate the UK will be.

I don't think it will make any difference (other than that the UK will have some export markets).

I see China are not pleased about Brexit. They were using the UK to try and get a deal with the EU who won't give them favourable terms unless they sort out their Human Rights. It seems China are also going to use Brexit as an example how democracy does not work Smile


China isn't alone in not being happy about the Brexit, but China won't turn down trade deals with the UK because of it. That's the point.

Considering the level of China's human rights abuses, China would be well advised not to criticise democracy.

Have you no morals? Cameron got a lot of criticism for cosying up to the Chinese recently. Some countries with high morals (like the Nordic countries, NZ, Canada) might not like the UK cosying up to China.

The Chinese Gov. are going to show the Chinese people (who are looking for greater freedoms) that democracy does not always work (i.e., look at the UK having to jump off a cliff).
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Post by Sin é on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:44 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
Coxy001 wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This is good news, and, I suspect, what was probably foreseen in the first place. Boris et al can now sit back and bask in their limited glory.

A strong PM is now needed to basically tell the EU committee (NOT EUROPEANS) to GTF with any proposed trade charges. Germany will absolutely not impose tariffs on the UK.

I see that India, the US, Mexico, Canada, Oz & NZ to name but a few, are already trying to move forward with a trade deal.

India would be good - what is it? 10 times the size of Europe? India - who's own trade deal with the EU has been stalling for a few years because of these cretins in Brussels???

Good times ahead.

Dear god.

10 times the size of the EU?!?! So bloody what?! Do you have any idea how much poverty there is in India? Oh and btw the way the Indian economy is around 1/10th of the EU.

And last time I checked we 47% of our exports go to the EU. The same EU have said that if we want access to the single market we have to play by their rules. And Merkel has said that VERY clearly - She will NOT suddenly give us free access to the single market. If we don't adopt EU laws/movement/etc then they will very simply impose tarriffs. This isn't hard to figure out.

So yes it's great times ahead that all those Indians will be wanting £70k BMWs Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  picard

oops....forgot there was no poverty in Europe and that they are absolutely booming!! Oh and nice ignorance of the other countries I mentioned.

I bow to your vast knowledge and expertise, but if you can spare a few minutes from making millions, watch Daniel Hannans' speech at the Oxford Union prior to the vote.

And to add....

I know all about the poverty in India, as I spent quite a bit of time there, whereas I expect you haven't due to never leaving your bedroom.

Oh by the way, BMWs don't cost as much there as they do here.

Just bear in mind that India will want a deal that works for both Wink  

Wasn't cheap imports of Indian steel into the EU a cause for much angst for many of the Britexiters? Tata Steel is an Indian company.


tata steel is an indian company but it has also owned the bulk of UK steel production. It has been looking to sell its UK plants for a while. I believe that Chinese steel is more of a problem.

And it seems that the EU wanted to put a higher tarriff on imported steel and the UK blocked it. The management of Steel companies want cheap steal and the British Gov. is trying to protect them. Feck the workers.

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Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:46 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Coxy001 wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:This is good news, and, I suspect, what was probably foreseen in the first place. Boris et al can now sit back and bask in their limited glory.

A strong PM is now needed to basically tell the EU committee (NOT EUROPEANS) to GTF with any proposed trade charges. Germany will absolutely not impose tariffs on the UK.

I see that India, the US, Mexico, Canada, Oz & NZ to name but a few, are already trying to move forward with a trade deal.

India would be good - what is it? 10 times the size of Europe? India - who's own trade deal with the EU has been stalling for a few years because of these cretins in Brussels???

Good times ahead.

Dear god.

10 times the size of the EU?!?! So bloody what?! Do you have any idea how much poverty there is in India? Oh and btw the way the Indian economy is around 1/10th of the EU.

And last time I checked we 47% of our exports go to the EU. The same EU have said that if we want access to the single market we have to play by their rules. And Merkel has said that VERY clearly - She will NOT suddenly give us free access to the single market. If we don't adopt EU laws/movement/etc then they will very simply impose tarriffs. This isn't hard to figure out.

So yes it's great times ahead that all those Indians will be wanting £70k BMWs Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  picard

Whichever way you look at it, it does strengthen the UK's hand in negotiating with the EU. May taking over as leader would also be a big plus. Not that I like her very much, but she would provide strong leadership. The same can't be said of Boris or Gove, the latter probably dropping out once a deal is done.

Does it? It's the ideal opportunity for countries to take advantage of us while we're desperate.

Well, yes. The more nations outside of EU wanting to negotiate trade deals with the UK, the more it strengthens the hand of the Uk in dealing with the EU. Or, to put it another way; the more others want to deal with the UK, the less desperate the UK will be.

I don't think it will make any difference (other than that the UK will have some export markets).

I see China are not pleased about Brexit. They were using the UK to try and get a deal with the EU who won't give them favourable terms unless they sort out their Human Rights. It seems China are also going to use Brexit as an example how democracy does not work Smile


China isn't alone in not being happy about the Brexit, but China won't turn down trade deals with the UK because of it. That's the point.

Considering the level of China's human rights abuses, China would be well advised not to criticise democracy.

Have you no morals? Cameron got a lot of criticism for cosying up to the Chinese recently. Some countries with high morals (like the Nordic countries, NZ, Canada) might not like the UK cosying up to China.

The Chinese Gov. are going to show the Chinese people (who are looking for greater freedoms) that democracy does not always work (i.e., look at the UK having to jump off a cliff).

Have you no morals?

"EU-China trade has increased dramatically in recent years. China is the EU's biggest source of imports by far, and has also become one of the EU's fastest growing export markets. The EU has also become China’s biggest source of imports. China and Europe now trade well over €1 billion a day." EU/CHINA

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:52 pm

May has ruled out a General Election before 2020. This is good news for the Labour Party, who now have time to elect a proper leader with enough time for him to reform the party before the next GE, and has spared them a complete and utter battering this year. Bad news for the Lib Dems, who could have really profited from Corbyn's inept and rudderless tenure.

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Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:55 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:May has ruled out a General Election before 2020. This is good news for the Labour Party, who now have time to elect a proper leader with enough time for him to reform the party before the next GE, and has spared them a complete and utter battering this year. Bad news for the Lib Dems, who could have really profited from Corbyn's inept and rudderless tenure.

I suppose it's also a blow for UKIP, which is no bad thing.

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Post by rodders on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:07 pm

Sin é wrote:
I see China are not pleased about Brexit. They were using the UK to try and get a deal with the EU who won't give them favourable terms unless they sort out their Human Rights. It seems China are also going to use Brexit as an example how democracy does not work Smile

That is the thing sinbo - of course countries are lining up to trade with Britain, because they'll get much more favorable terms than with the EU.

Its not just down to tariffs the EU provided very strict production standards and working conditions which protected workers and consumers within the bloc.

For example this opens up Britain importing previously banned products, like US beef.

Once the cheaper manual/semiskilled labour costs that was afforded under free movement disappears watch how quickly these trade deals pave the way for UK based companies to outsource or ship labour overseas, especially if more of the export markets move outside of Europe.

It amazes me how naive some people are. The winners under brexit will be the winners in the EU and the losers under Brexit will be the losers under the EU - however many losers may lose a lot more than they did with our European partners.
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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:09 pm

Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:May has ruled out a General Election before 2020. This is good news for the Labour Party, who now have time to elect a proper leader with enough time for him to reform the party before the next GE, and has spared them a complete and utter battering this year. Bad news for the Lib Dems, who could have really profited from Corbyn's inept and rudderless tenure.

I suppose it's also a blow for UKIP, which is no bad thing.

I'm not so sure. I think UKIP get wiped out either way personally. When I say "wiped out", I mean lose their only MP (or he defects back to the Tories if they'll have him). They had 12% or so share of the vote at the last election. I would expect that to drop to below 5%, with no MPs. The party may also disband by 2020 if May pulls the trigger on Article 50 before then.

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Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:14 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:May has ruled out a General Election before 2020. This is good news for the Labour Party, who now have time to elect a proper leader with enough time for him to reform the party before the next GE, and has spared them a complete and utter battering this year. Bad news for the Lib Dems, who could have really profited from Corbyn's inept and rudderless tenure.

I suppose it's also a blow for UKIP, which is no bad thing.

I'm not so sure. I think UKIP get wiped out either way personally. When I say "wiped out", I mean lose their only MP (or he defects back to the Tories if they'll have him). They had 12% or so share of the vote at the last election. I would expect that to drop to below 5%, with no MPs. The party may also disband by 2020 if May pulls the trigger on Article 50 before then.

I don't know, fes but, from the BBC interviews I have seen, there are traditional Labour votes moving to UKIP. Crazy, I know, but there are those that feel Labour no longer fight their corner, and that UKIP is their more likely champion. And then we have traditional Conservative votes moving to UKIP because they feel UKIP better represents their views on the EU. How widespread that is, I don't know.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:19 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-fisherman-warned-catch-quotas-may-not-increase-with-brexit-a7110766.html

Laugh

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Post by rodders on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:22 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-fisherman-warned-catch-quotas-may-not-increase-with-brexit-a7110766.html

Laugh

It seems the only things that will increase post brexit are inflation, unemployment and the budget deficit.
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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:25 pm

Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:May has ruled out a General Election before 2020. This is good news for the Labour Party, who now have time to elect a proper leader with enough time for him to reform the party before the next GE, and has spared them a complete and utter battering this year. Bad news for the Lib Dems, who could have really profited from Corbyn's inept and rudderless tenure.

I suppose it's also a blow for UKIP, which is no bad thing.

I'm not so sure. I think UKIP get wiped out either way personally. When I say "wiped out", I mean lose their only MP (or he defects back to the Tories if they'll have him). They had 12% or so share of the vote at the last election. I would expect that to drop to below 5%, with no MPs. The party may also disband by 2020 if May pulls the trigger on Article 50 before then.

I don't know, fes but, from the BBC interviews I have seen, there are traditional Labour votes moving to UKIP. Crazy, I know, but there are those that feel Labour no longer fight their corner, and that UKIP is their more likely champion. And then we have traditional Conservative votes moving to UKIP because they feel UKIP better represents their views on the EU. How widespread that is, I don't know.


That doesn't make any sense. UKIP has one principal objective which is to take the UK out of the EU. We won't be a member of the EU, so what exactly would a UKIP vote achieve? They are basically just a right wing faction of the Tories, and if traditional Labour supporters are voting for that then we can respectfully call for them the men in white coats.

The reason why Tories shifted to UKIP was because the Conservative government was pro-Europe. With that no longer being relevant, I can't see why they would stay, or more would shift, with/to UKIP. In that scenario a UKIP vote is effectively a vote for Labour/Lib Dems, as it draws support away from the Tories. Again, it makes no sense for those with traditional conservative views.

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:27 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-fisherman-warned-catch-quotas-may-not-increase-with-brexit-a7110766.html

Laugh

'He said: "It is far too early to speculate on this question [of what will happen to fisheries]."'

May, might, could blah blah blah.

The shi**y media have really got a lot to answer for in stirring up the poison I've read and heard over the last week.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:32 pm

That's just the climate of the hour Tattie.  Every man and his knife for himself.

Gove really is the worst so far.  At least Farage bites you in the face, you can see him coming... he's barking as he approaches.

Boris will remember the knife.  Gove will pay a price.

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Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:37 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:May has ruled out a General Election before 2020. This is good news for the Labour Party, who now have time to elect a proper leader with enough time for him to reform the party before the next GE, and has spared them a complete and utter battering this year. Bad news for the Lib Dems, who could have really profited from Corbyn's inept and rudderless tenure.

I suppose it's also a blow for UKIP, which is no bad thing.

I'm not so sure. I think UKIP get wiped out either way personally. When I say "wiped out", I mean lose their only MP (or he defects back to the Tories if they'll have him). They had 12% or so share of the vote at the last election. I would expect that to drop to below 5%, with no MPs. The party may also disband by 2020 if May pulls the trigger on Article 50 before then.

I don't know, fes but, from the BBC interviews I have seen, there are traditional Labour votes moving to UKIP. Crazy, I know, but there are those that feel Labour no longer fight their corner, and that UKIP is their more likely champion. And then we have traditional Conservative votes moving to UKIP because they feel UKIP better represents their views on the EU. How widespread that is, I don't know.


That doesn't make any sense. UKIP has one principal objective which is to take the UK out of the EU. We won't be a member of the EU, so what exactly would a UKIP vote achieve? They are basically just a right wing faction of the Tories, and if traditional Labour supporters are voting for that then we can respectfully call for them the men in white coats.

The reason why Tories shifted to UKIP was because the Conservative government was pro-Europe. With that no longer being relevant, I can't see why they would stay, or more would shift, with/to UKIP. In that scenario a UKIP vote is effectively a vote for Labour/Lib Dems, as it draws support away from the Tories. Again, it makes no sense for those with traditional conservative views.

It makes sense to them because UKIP has been the loudest voice on issues of poverty, housing shortage, unemployment, etc. True that they blame it all on the EU, but they have been a loudest voice compared to the whispers of Labour. That and the fact that Labour came out for Remain. I guess they see Labour as having betrayed them.

You might be right that some Tory votes which defected to UKIP may drift back to the Conservatives, but I guess that will depend on the next Conservative manifesto.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:38 pm

SecretFly wrote:That's just the climate of the hour Tattie.  Every man and his knife for himself.

Gove really is the worst so far.  At least Farage bites you in the face, you can see him coming... he's barking as he approaches.

Boris will remember the knife.  Gove will pay a price.

Nah, I think Boris is finished now. The Tories have their legacy planning in place with Crabb and Javid, and I can't see anything other than a May victory both in the forthcoming leadership election and the next general election in 2020.

Gove's strength is that he doesn't actually want to be leader. He's also much smarter than Boris.

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Post by rodders on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:40 pm

SecretFly wrote:That's just the climate of the hour Tattie.  Every man and his knife for himself.

Gove really is the worst so far.  At least Farage bites you in the face, you can see him coming... he's barking as he approaches.

Boris will remember the knife.  Gove will pay a price.

Et tu Brute!
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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:42 pm

Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:May has ruled out a General Election before 2020. This is good news for the Labour Party, who now have time to elect a proper leader with enough time for him to reform the party before the next GE, and has spared them a complete and utter battering this year. Bad news for the Lib Dems, who could have really profited from Corbyn's inept and rudderless tenure.

I suppose it's also a blow for UKIP, which is no bad thing.

I'm not so sure. I think UKIP get wiped out either way personally. When I say "wiped out", I mean lose their only MP (or he defects back to the Tories if they'll have him). They had 12% or so share of the vote at the last election. I would expect that to drop to below 5%, with no MPs. The party may also disband by 2020 if May pulls the trigger on Article 50 before then.

I don't know, fes but, from the BBC interviews I have seen, there are traditional Labour votes moving to UKIP. Crazy, I know, but there are those that feel Labour no longer fight their corner, and that UKIP is their more likely champion. And then we have traditional Conservative votes moving to UKIP because they feel UKIP better represents their views on the EU. How widespread that is, I don't know.


That doesn't make any sense. UKIP has one principal objective which is to take the UK out of the EU. We won't be a member of the EU, so what exactly would a UKIP vote achieve? They are basically just a right wing faction of the Tories, and if traditional Labour supporters are voting for that then we can respectfully call for them the men in white coats.

The reason why Tories shifted to UKIP was because the Conservative government was pro-Europe. With that no longer being relevant, I can't see why they would stay, or more would shift, with/to UKIP. In that scenario a UKIP vote is effectively a vote for Labour/Lib Dems, as it draws support away from the Tories. Again, it makes no sense for those with traditional conservative views.

It makes sense to them because UKIP has been the loudest voice on issues of poverty, housing shortage, unemployment, etc. True that they blame it all on the EU, but they have been a loudest voice compared to the whispers of Labour. That and the fact that Labour came out for Remain. I guess they see Labour as having betrayed them.

You might be right that some Tory votes which defected to UKIP may drift back to the Conservatives, but I guess that will depend on the next Conservative manifesto.

I hear you but I think that sentiment has already been expressed in the 1/3 of Labour voters who voted Leave (and the countless others who would traditionally vote Labour). We will be out of the EU by 2020, so what benefit could traditional Labour voters glean from UKIP (if UKIP even exists at that point)? If they really do wish to protest against the shambles that is the current Labour party, my hunch is that they just won't bother voting on the basis that the Tories are going to win anyway.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:44 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Nah, I think Boris is finished now. The Tories have their legacy planning in place with Crabb and Javid, and I can't see anything other than a May victory both in the forthcoming leadership election and the next general election in 2020.

Gove's strength is that he doesn't actually want to be leader. He's also much smarter than Boris.

We'll see, Exiled.  Boris is now a guy that can criticise the pathways the party takes from the sidelines, especially if he doesn't acquire a 'big' job - and how can he if both Gove and May said he's not capable of opening an envelope.  I'm not saying Boris will be ambitious for leadership now but he'll be out to drop Gove through a hole in a pavement if he can manufacture one sometime in the future.

We'll see.

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Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:52 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:May has ruled out a General Election before 2020. This is good news for the Labour Party, who now have time to elect a proper leader with enough time for him to reform the party before the next GE, and has spared them a complete and utter battering this year. Bad news for the Lib Dems, who could have really profited from Corbyn's inept and rudderless tenure.

I suppose it's also a blow for UKIP, which is no bad thing.

I'm not so sure. I think UKIP get wiped out either way personally. When I say "wiped out", I mean lose their only MP (or he defects back to the Tories if they'll have him). They had 12% or so share of the vote at the last election. I would expect that to drop to below 5%, with no MPs. The party may also disband by 2020 if May pulls the trigger on Article 50 before then.

I don't know, fes but, from the BBC interviews I have seen, there are traditional Labour votes moving to UKIP. Crazy, I know, but there are those that feel Labour no longer fight their corner, and that UKIP is their more likely champion. And then we have traditional Conservative votes moving to UKIP because they feel UKIP better represents their views on the EU. How widespread that is, I don't know.


That doesn't make any sense. UKIP has one principal objective which is to take the UK out of the EU. We won't be a member of the EU, so what exactly would a UKIP vote achieve? They are basically just a right wing faction of the Tories, and if traditional Labour supporters are voting for that then we can respectfully call for them the men in white coats.

The reason why Tories shifted to UKIP was because the Conservative government was pro-Europe. With that no longer being relevant, I can't see why they would stay, or more would shift, with/to UKIP. In that scenario a UKIP vote is effectively a vote for Labour/Lib Dems, as it draws support away from the Tories. Again, it makes no sense for those with traditional conservative views.

It makes sense to them because UKIP has been the loudest voice on issues of poverty, housing shortage, unemployment, etc. True that they blame it all on the EU, but they have been a loudest voice compared to the whispers of Labour. That and the fact that Labour came out for Remain. I guess they see Labour as having betrayed them.

You might be right that some Tory votes which defected to UKIP may drift back to the Conservatives, but I guess that will depend on the next Conservative manifesto.

I hear you but I think that sentiment has already been expressed in the 1/3 of Labour voters who voted Leave (and the countless others who would traditionally vote Labour). We will be out of the EU by 2020, so what benefit could traditional Labour voters glean from UKIP (if UKIP even exists at that point)? If they really do wish to protest against the shambles that is the current Labour party, my hunch is that they just won't bother voting on the basis that the Tories are going to win anyway.

Not all see this as a done deal. Certainly not on this thread anyway. The traditional Labour vote is also being treated to this incredible Labour farce. Something that will drain any confidence that Labour are fit to represent their electorate. A lot will depend on how deep some feel this sense of betrayal, and who it is that will lead Labour into the next General Election.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:54 pm

Look, this is becoming too surreal, and people blame me for being always in that realm.

A Labour guy on TV bluntly saying that Corbyn lost the support of the 'working class' - and that it has been proved by the Referendum result....... Shocked

Are these people on planet Earth?  The working class wanted to Vote NO - Corbyn was clearly a NO guy saying YES.... lukewarmly.  
The majority of that Labour Party wanted a YES (and unlike Corby, they meant it).  
It's they who've lost the support of the working class.  

But keep doing the spin guys.  It's entertaining.

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Post by Coxy001 on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:55 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:47% of what?

15% of what?

Percentages are nice, but 47% of f**k all is f**k all.

Show me the money (and source).

47% of our exports go to the EU.

15% of EU exports go to America.

Ergo getting slapped with any restrictions on our trade to the EU would have huge negative effects.

This isn't hard to understand and the figures are readily available in the public domain.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 3:55 pm

Michael Hesletine wrote:There will be a profound sense of dismay and frankly contempt. He's ripped the party apart. He's created the greatest constitutional crisis of modern times. He knocked billions off the value of the nation's savings. He's like a general who leads his army to the sound of guns and at the sight of the battlefield abandoned the field. I have never seen so contemptible and irresponsible a situation. He must live with the shame of what he has done.

Go on Hezza, tell us how you really feel about Boris....
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Post by rodders on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:00 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Michael Hesletine wrote:There will be a profound sense of dismay and frankly contempt. He's ripped the party apart. He's created the greatest constitutional crisis of modern times. He knocked billions off the value of the nation's savings. He's like a general who leads his army to the sound of guns and at the sight of the battlefield abandoned the field. I have never seen so contemptible and irresponsible a situation. He must live with the shame of what he has done.

Go on Hezza, tell us how you really feel about Boris....

Well would say it was everyone who voted leave who did that, it can't be blamed on Boris, more so the idiots who believed him.
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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:04 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Michael Hesletine wrote:There will be a profound sense of dismay and frankly contempt. He's ripped the party apart. He's created the greatest constitutional crisis of modern times. He knocked billions off the value of the nation's savings. He's like a general who leads his army to the sound of guns and at the sight of the battlefield abandoned the field. I have never seen so contemptible and irresponsible a situation. He must live with the shame of what he has done.

Go on Hezza, tell us how you really feel about Boris....

Needs to be said though.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:05 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Michael Hesletine wrote:There will be a profound sense of dismay and frankly contempt. He's ripped the party apart. He's created the greatest constitutional crisis of modern times. He knocked billions off the value of the nation's savings. He's like a general who leads his army to the sound of guns and at the sight of the battlefield abandoned the field. I have never seen so contemptible and irresponsible a situation. He must live with the shame of what he has done.

Go on Hezza, tell us how you really feel about Boris....

Well put Hezza!

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Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:07 pm

rodders wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Michael Hesletine wrote:There will be a profound sense of dismay and frankly contempt. He's ripped the party apart. He's created the greatest constitutional crisis of modern times. He knocked billions off the value of the nation's savings. He's like a general who leads his army to the sound of guns and at the sight of the battlefield abandoned the field. I have never seen so contemptible and irresponsible a situation. He must live with the shame of what he has done.

Go on Hezza, tell us how you really feel about Boris....

Well would say it was everyone who voted leave who did that, it can't be blamed on Boris, more so the idiots who believed him.

Rubbish.

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:07 pm

I would just love to find out what he called Gove. After all Boris is the man who referred to London Assembly members as "great supine protoplasmic invertebrate jellies"

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:09 pm

Farage must be laughing as he sucks on the sweet smugness of his large cigar  

Boris collects the knife meant for him too.  Poor Boris is a Martyr - Sainthood awaits him.

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Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:10 pm

lostinwales wrote:I would just love to find out what he called Gove. After all Boris is the man who referred to London Assembly members as "great supine protoplasmic invertebrate jellies"
"That c*nt" by all accounts

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:12 pm

SecretFly wrote:Farage must be laughing as he sucks on the sweet smugness of his large cigar  

Boris collects the knife meant for him too.  Poor Boris is a Martyr - Sainthood awaits him.
Does he get to be burnt as a guarantee of getting his halo?
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Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:13 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Farage must be laughing as he sucks on the sweet smugness of his large cigar  

Boris collects the knife meant for him too.  Poor Boris is a Martyr - Sainthood awaits him.
Does he get to be burnt as a guarantee of getting his halo?

He just has been.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:14 pm

Farage will blow a cigar-smoke halo over his corpse.


Last edited by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:15 pm

Coxy001 wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:47% of what?

15% of what?

Percentages are nice, but 47% of f**k all is f**k all.

Show me the money (and source).

47% of our exports go to the EU. What if this is worth say......£15bn?

15% of EU exports go to America. What if this was worth say.......£78bn?

Ergo getting slapped with any restrictions on our trade to the EU would have huge negative effects.

This isn't hard to understand and the figures are readily available in the public domain.

Right then! If you can't answer it, don't act like you know it all.

Which, my friend, you absolutely don't.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:18 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
Coxy001 wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:47% of what?

15% of what?

Percentages are nice, but 47% of f**k all is f**k all.

Show me the money (and source).

47% of our exports go to the EU. What if this is worth say......£15bn?

15% of EU exports go to America. What if this was worth say.......£78bn?

Ergo getting slapped with any restrictions on our trade to the EU would have huge negative effects.

This isn't hard to understand and the figures are readily available in the public domain.

Right then! If you can't answer it, don't act like you know it all.

Which, my friend, you absolutely don't.

laughing

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Post by Nico the gman on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:24 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Michael Hesletine wrote:There will be a profound sense of dismay and frankly contempt. He's ripped the party apart. He's created the greatest constitutional crisis of modern times. He knocked billions off the value of the nation's savings. He's like a general who leads his army to the sound of guns and at the sight of the battlefield abandoned the field. I have never seen so contemptible and irresponsible a situation. He must live with the shame of what he has done.

Go on Hezza, tell us how you really feel about Boris....

Well put Hezza!
I'm sure Boris will hang his head in shame as he drinks another glass of Chateau Lafite, he won't give a toss what Tarzan's saying.

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Post by rodders on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:25 pm

Munchkin wrote:
rodders wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Michael Hesletine wrote:There will be a profound sense of dismay and frankly contempt. He's ripped the party apart. He's created the greatest constitutional crisis of modern times. He knocked billions off the value of the nation's savings. He's like a general who leads his army to the sound of guns and at the sight of the battlefield abandoned the field. I have never seen so contemptible and irresponsible a situation. He must live with the shame of what he has done.

Go on Hezza, tell us how you really feel about Boris....

Well would say it was everyone who voted leave who did that, it can't be blamed on Boris, more so the idiots who believed him.

Rubbish.

Why is it? Boris just had one vote the same as everyone else.

All of these questions the leave camp can't answer now, they couldn't answer before the referendum - and were they tried it was just so incredulous a child could have seen through it i.e. the mythical 350 million extra for the NHS.

The state the country is in now is entirely down to the 17.5 million people who voted to leave and ignore all the warnings about the consequences and took a blind leap of faith at the behest of narcissistic idiots like Johnson and treacherous toads like Farriage and Gove.
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:33 pm

Nico the gman wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Michael Hesletine wrote:There will be a profound sense of dismay and frankly contempt. He's ripped the party apart. He's created the greatest constitutional crisis of modern times. He knocked billions off the value of the nation's savings. He's like a general who leads his army to the sound of guns and at the sight of the battlefield abandoned the field. I have never seen so contemptible and irresponsible a situation. He must live with the shame of what he has done.

Go on Hezza, tell us how you really feel about Boris....

Well put Hezza!
I'm sure Boris will hang his head in shame as he drinks another glass of Chateau Lafite, he won't give a toss what Tarzan's saying.

laughing

That highlighted bit reminds me of that famous Geoffrey Howe speech about the bloody cricket - ""It is rather like sending your opening batsmen to the crease, only for them to find, as the first balls are being bowled, that their bats have been broken before the game by the team captain".

Tarzan must have stumbled across it in his papers and modified it so that Europeans could understand better the meaning.

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Post by Nico the gman on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:41 pm

rodders wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
rodders wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Michael Hesletine wrote:There will be a profound sense of dismay and frankly contempt. He's ripped the party apart. He's created the greatest constitutional crisis of modern times. He knocked billions off the value of the nation's savings. He's like a general who leads his army to the sound of guns and at the sight of the battlefield abandoned the field. I have never seen so contemptible and irresponsible a situation. He must live with the shame of what he has done.

Go on Hezza, tell us how you really feel about Boris....

Well would say it was everyone who voted leave who did that, it can't be blamed on Boris, more so the idiots who believed him.

Rubbish.

Why is it? Boris just had one vote the same as everyone else.

All of these questions the leave camp can't answer now, they couldn't answer before the referendum - and were they tried it was just so incredulous a child could have seen through it i.e. the mythical 350 million extra for the NHS.

The state the country is in now is entirely down to the 17.5 million people who voted to leave and ignore all the warnings about the consequences and took a blind leap of faith at the behest of narcissistic idiots like Johnson and treacherous toads like Farriage and Gove.
Fact is as Cameron said this week at the EU summit, immigration and the open border policy lost him the remain vote the head in the sand EU bureaucrats ignored it when it was mentioned in January and that is why we are now on our way out of the EU, the ordinary man on the street hasn't got a clue about the bloody economy.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:44 pm

Nico the gman wrote: the ordinary man on the street hasn't got a clue about the bloody economy.

So true - as is the vice versa.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:48 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Nico the gman wrote: the ordinary man on the street hasn't got a clue about the bloody economy.

So true - as is the vice versa.
And you're surprised by that?
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Post by Guest on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:51 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Nico the gman wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Michael Hesletine wrote:There will be a profound sense of dismay and frankly contempt. He's ripped the party apart. He's created the greatest constitutional crisis of modern times. He knocked billions off the value of the nation's savings. He's like a general who leads his army to the sound of guns and at the sight of the battlefield abandoned the field. I have never seen so contemptible and irresponsible a situation. He must live with the shame of what he has done.

Go on Hezza, tell us how you really feel about Boris....

Well put Hezza!
I'm sure Boris will hang his head in shame as he drinks another glass of Chateau Lafite, he won't give a toss what Tarzan's saying.

laughing

That highlighted bit reminds me of that famous Geoffrey Howe speech about the bloody cricket - ""It is rather like sending your opening batsmen to the crease, only for them to find, as the first balls are being bowled, that their bats have been broken before the game by the team captain".

Tarzan must have stumbled across it in his papers and modified it so that Europeans could understand better the meaning.
Well, if they can't understand a simple cricketing metaphor then perhaps we're best off out of the place....simpletons!

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Post by rodders on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:51 pm

Nico the gman wrote:
Fact is as Cameron said this week at the EU summit, immigration and the open border policy lost him the remain vote the head in the sand EU bureaucrats ignored it when it was mentioned in January and that is why we are now on our way out of the EU, the ordinary man on the street hasn't got a clue about the bloody economy.

The EU didn't ignore it, Cameron was told then, what May or whoever replaces him will be told when they (threaten to) invoke article 50 - that the free movement of people is one of the fundamental principals of the EU and without it there is no full access to the single market.

The failure of remain to sell the deal that Cameron got, arguably the best deal of any member state, and outline all the economic and social benefits of EU membership in a way the man on the street could understand - including free movement of people - is why we are on our way out.
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 4:53 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Nico the gman wrote: the ordinary man on the street hasn't got a clue about the bloody economy.

So true - as is the vice versa.
And you're surprised by that?

Apathy from either end doesn't surprise me. But if the first needs saying (to refresh people's memories), so does the second.

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