LV Cup Returns

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LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 2:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/anglo-welsh-cup-return-next-11548179

Good to see the Anglo-Welsh Cup is back.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 1:21 pm

Losing the Low Value cup would be in most people's best interests.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 4:16 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

Sorry - I should have written b, c and d.

I don't think you can say the AW Cup is yours however, if the PRO 12 clubs are agreed on moving games out of the test Windows and everyone wants something else to happen during that time under the PRO12 banner.  


I don't follow. The AW Cup doesn't belong to the English and Welsh clubs, not the PrO'12.

"The AW Cup doesn't belong to the English and Welsh clubs".   It was an English league competition that Welsh regions joined in 2006, presumably via the WRU. After an initial burst of enthusiasm, it has steadily lost appeal over the last number of years. It's worthwhile considering that a British and Irish development comp with more high profile, quality players would have more appeal to fans and broadcasters and generate more income. It would be two different leagues deciding to come together. The Welsh clubs don't own the AW Cup, they were invited in to an existing competition.

If the PRO 12 clubs/chiefs - which includes the Welsh regions - want to develop a new comp with the PRL that changes or does away with the AW Cup, I don't think some Welsh fans can simply say - that's ours. The PRL would rightly respond - no, it's not.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by profitius on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 9:12 pm

PhilBB wrote:
b) is not needed as we have the AW Cup. If the Irish and the Scots want to not play during the international windows they should find their own competition to play in rather than ruining ours. Again.


Again?

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 8:13 am

Pot Hale wrote:
"The AW Cup doesn't belong to the English and Welsh clubs".   It was an English league competition that Welsh regions joined in 2006, presumably via the WRU.  After an initial burst of enthusiasm, it has steadily lost appeal over the last number of years. It's worthwhile considering that a British and Irish development comp with more high profile, quality players would have more appeal to fans and broadcasters and generate more income.   It would be two different leagues deciding to come together.  The Welsh clubs don't own the AW Cup, they were invited in to an existing competition.

If the PRO 12 clubs/chiefs - which includes the Welsh regions - want to develop a new comp with the PRL that changes or does away with the AW Cup, I don't think some Welsh fans can simply say - that's ours.  The PRL would rightly respond - no, it's not.  

I think that you missed the point. By 'ours', I mean it doesn't belong to the Irish and Scots to muscle in on. They've already ruined the competition once, so I'd hope they wouldn't do it a second time.

The idea of 'more high profile, quality players' is stretching it, too. Almost desperately stretching it.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 8:14 am

profitius wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
b) is not needed as we have the AW Cup. If the Irish and the Scots want to not play during the international windows they should find their own competition to play in rather than ruining ours. Again.


Again?

Yes, again. You'll remember that the Irish and Scots through the Welsh out of the Celtic Accord over this AW Competition.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 8:42 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
No you haven't to that first sentence. It was pointed out quickly that it was lacking in detail and no accurate conclusions could be made without more info.

Drivel, fair play. Drivel.

Erm, how exactly? Are you denying you would need to consider other points in your analysis to make it a more rounded picture? Injuries, opposition, weather conditions, venue etc etc

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 8:46 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Erm, how exactly? Are you denying you would need to consider other points in your analysis to make it a more rounded picture? Injuries, opposition, weather conditions, venue etc etc
Not to make the clear and obvious point that Welsh teams are negatively affected by the depth of their squads, no. Clearly not.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 8:48 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Erm, how exactly? Are you denying you would need to consider other points in your analysis to make it a more rounded picture? Injuries, opposition, weather conditions, venue etc etc
Not to make the clear and obvious point that Welsh teams are negatively affected by the depth of their squads, no. Clearly not.

Yes you do as there are clearly more variables to consider. To simply ignore them does nothing for your argument. You may well be correct that Welsh teams are sadly lacking in all areas but you certainly haven't proved anything by a half arsed list.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 8:51 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Yes you do as there are clearly more variables to consider. To simply ignore them does nothing for your argument. You may well be correct that Welsh teams are sadly lacking in all areas but you certainly haven't proved anything by a half arsed list.

Well, now it's my time to play your game:

Yes, I have proven plenty. Thanks.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 8:53 am

Not what you intended though!

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 8:54 am

So,

The vast majority of Pro12 teams lose a shedload of players in International windows, but it is only Wales who are inconvenienced? Now ignoring the fact that the sample size was a single year and could be a statistical blip, rather than blame the International Window, how about looking at the squad depth and player development in Wales?

Rather than using the Ukip method of blaming everyone else for your own problems, how about addressing your own shortfalls? Just a thought.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 8:55 am

LondonTiger wrote:So,

The vast majority of Pro12 teams lose a shedload of players in International windows, but it is only Wales who are inconvenienced? Now ignoring the fact that the sample size was a single year and could be a statistical blip, rather than blame the International Window, how about looking at the squad depth and player development in Wales?

Rather than using the Ukip method of blaming everyone else for your own problems, how about addressing your own shortfalls? Just a thought.

Erm, that was the point of the statistics, mate. Well done on missing it.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 8:56 am

Truely woeful analysis though Phil.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 8:57 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Truely woeful analysis though Phil.

Cheers. That means a lot.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 9:01 am

In all seriousness, you could have a good case and avoid being easily picked apart if you just put some work into the actual analysis and depth of stats you use.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 9:05 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:In all seriousness, you could have a good case and avoid being easily picked apart if you just put some work into the actual analysis and depth of stats you use.

The stats served the purpose that they were intended to serve.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 9:08 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:In all seriousness, you could have a good case and avoid being easily picked apart if you just put some work into the actual analysis and depth of stats you use.

The stats served the purpose that they were intended to serve.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by Irish Londoner on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 9:15 am

Wouldn't it be better to do a comparison of how many players the teams lost to international duty during this period, so for you could look at the comparative weakness of both teams - e.g. if Scarlets played Edinburgh what was the difference to their first choice matchday squad ?

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 9:22 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:In all seriousness, you could have a good case and avoid being easily picked apart if you just put some work into the actual analysis and depth of stats you use.

The stats served the purpose that they were intended to serve.

You can't tell much from them though.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 10:16 am

Irish Londoner wrote:Wouldn't it be better to do a comparison of how many players the teams lost to international duty during this period, so for you could look at the comparative weakness of both teams - e.g. if Scarlets played Edinburgh what was the difference to their first choice matchday squad ?

That would only prove that, say, Edinburgh are less affected by international call ups. In other words, it would prove the same point.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 10:16 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
You can't tell much from them though.

You keep writing that as though you're convinced. It matters not a jot.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 10:48 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
You can't tell much from them though.

You keep writing that as though you're convinced. It matters not a jot.

What can you read from it then? From one years limited data considering no other variable.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 10:55 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
What can you read from it then? From one years limited data considering no other variable.

The conclusion that has been reached in the thread with that data and repeated elsewhere.

Thanks.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by Irish Londoner on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 11:00 am

I've just had a look on the link - it seems your fellow Welshmen are not as keen as you about this:

"The region's development teams will never cope against the premiership 2nd string, so all they'll experience is constant hammerings, which will simply dent their confidence and instill a losing mentality. Marvellous."

"Waste of time. All the youngsters are already playing in the Pro 12 because the Welsh players are either on Wales duty or injured because they've been trained to death in Gatlands boot camps. Welsh rugby needs less fixtures of a better quality with all our internationals playing to raise standards. "

"Where are we getting all these fringe players from? Squads already aren't big enough to cope with the quantity of competitions and International call ups in Wales, and as its a competition of monetary worth, the seniors will be encouraged to / required to play in those games as well"


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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 11:06 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
What can you read from it then? From one years limited data considering no other variable.

The conclusion that has been reached in the thread with that data and repeated elsewhere.

Thanks.

The conclusion for the majority is that nothing could be read from it as there wasn't enough data. Your conclusion was that Ospreys struggled in last years international break for an unknown reason.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 11:40 am

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
"The AW Cup doesn't belong to the English and Welsh clubs".   It was an English league competition that Welsh regions joined in 2006, presumably via the WRU.  After an initial burst of enthusiasm, it has steadily lost appeal over the last number of years. It's worthwhile considering that a British and Irish development comp with more high profile, quality players would have more appeal to fans and broadcasters and generate more income.   It would be two different leagues deciding to come together.  The Welsh clubs don't own the AW Cup, they were invited in to an existing competition.

If the PRO 12 clubs/chiefs - which includes the Welsh regions - want to develop a new comp with the PRL that changes or does away with the AW Cup, I don't think some Welsh fans can simply say - that's ours.  The PRL would rightly respond - no, it's not.  

I think that you missed the point. By 'ours', I mean it doesn't belong to the Irish and Scots to muscle in on. They've already ruined the competition once, so I'd hope they wouldn't do it a second time.

The idea of 'more high profile, quality players' is stretching it, too. Almost desperately stretching it.

You're the one who said the comp doesn't belong to the English and Welsh clubs.

I don't see how you can claim the comp was ruined once already by the IRFU and SRU.

The WRU and clubs decided to join the English clubs in the cup competition and without consultation arranged fixtures that clashed with the Celtic League fixtures. That's what nearly got them expelled from the League. However, they were allowed stay after they shifted the fixture list. So how was it ruined by the IRFU/SRU?

If anything, I'd say they got what they wanted and shafted their supposed Celtic partners. That action sowed the seeds of a lot of discord and mistrust of the WRU and clubs. That distrust reared its head again when the Welsh regions decided to link up with the PRL in the H Cup wrangle to serve their own interests. Again. That didn't work out too well either.

My central point is that if the PRO 12 Chiefs of the clubs decide to go down the route of the proposed changes outlined earlier then the Welsh regions will be agreeing to change/discard the AW Cup themselves. Or if you're saying "ruined" means that if somehow the IRFU/ SRU/FIR through the PRO12 were to persuade the PRL to create a new B&I development competition without requiring the agreement of the Welsh regions, that might be viewed by some as the biter bit.

If I recall correctly, I thought you espoused the idea of having B&I style competitions. Surely the idea of creating one at development level involving all the premier clubs might be a good start to see how popular and successful a British & Irish League might be?


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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 12:10 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:I've just had a look on the link - it seems your fellow Welshmen are not as keen as you about this:

"The region's development teams will never cope  against the premiership 2nd string, so all they'll experience is constant hammerings,  which will simply dent their confidence and instill a losing mentality. Marvellous."

"Waste of time. All the youngsters are already playing in the Pro 12 because the Welsh players are either on Wales duty or injured because they've  been trained to death in Gatlands boot camps. Welsh rugby needs less fixtures of a better quality with all our internationals playing to raise standards. "

"Where are we getting all these fringe players from? Squads already aren't big enough to cope with the quantity of competitions and International call ups in Wales, and as its a competition of monetary worth, the seniors will be encouraged to / required to play in those games as well"


Well, that's a sample size and a half.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 12:14 pm

Pot Hale wrote:

I don't see how you can claim the comp was ruined once already by the IRFU and SRU.

The WRU and clubs decided to join the English clubs in the cup competition and without consultation arranged fixtures that clashed with the Celtic League fixtures.  That's what nearly got them expelled from the League.  However, they were allowed stay after they shifted the fixture list. So how was it ruined by the IRFU/SRU?

If anything, I'd say they got what they wanted and shafted their supposed Celtic partners.   That action sowed the seeds of a lot of discord and mistrust of the WRU and clubs. That distrust reared its head again when the Welsh regions decided to link up with the PRL in the H Cup wrangle to serve their own interests.  Again.  That didn't work out too well either.  

My central point is that if the PRO 12 Chiefs of the clubs decide to go down the route of the proposed changes outlined earlier then the Welsh regions will be agreeing to change/discard the AW Cup themselves. Or if you're saying "ruined" means that if somehow the IRFU/ SRU/FIR through the PRO12 were to persuade the PRL to create a new B&I development competition without requiring the agreement of the Welsh regions, that might be viewed by some as the biter bit.  

If I recall correctly, I thought you espoused the idea of having B&I style competitions.  Surely the idea of creating one at development level involving all the premier clubs might be a good start to see how popular and successful a British & Irish League might be?


It was ruined by the IRFU / SRU because it was forced to be a development competition instead of the full blown competition it was. How can you miss this obvious point?

PRW aligning with PRL for the EPRC worked perfectly for us. It secured our futures against a Union that was trying to shut down PRW. Therefore, how can you legitimately claim 'that didn't work out too well either'? The exact opposite is true.

Your central point seems to be based on a 'maybe' in an article, the hope that PRL would want to deal with the IRFU (and, if you actually remember accurately, your EPRC memories will tell you it was that which 'didn't work out too well) and that there is a desire to change the AW Cup. Those are some hopes.

I don't see the need to ditch the AW Cup in order to try to see if somebody would turn up to watch Leinster A, sorry.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by Irish Londoner on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 12:42 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:I've just had a look on the link - it seems your fellow Welshmen are not as keen as you about this:

"The region's development teams will never cope  against the premiership 2nd string, so all they'll experience is constant hammerings,  which will simply dent their confidence and instill a losing mentality. Marvellous."

"Waste of time. All the youngsters are already playing in the Pro 12 because the Welsh players are either on Wales duty or injured because they've  been trained to death in Gatlands boot camps. Welsh rugby needs less fixtures of a better quality with all our internationals playing to raise standards. "

"Where are we getting all these fringe players from? Squads already aren't big enough to cope with the quantity of competitions and International call ups in Wales, and as its a competition of monetary worth, the seniors will be encouraged to / required to play in those games as well"


Well, that's a sample size and a half.

Good point - random people commenting on the internet, mostly about subjects they don't understand fully, what do they know ?

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by Irish Londoner on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 12:48 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

I don't see how you can claim the comp was ruined once already by the IRFU and SRU.

The WRU and clubs decided to join the English clubs in the cup competition and without consultation arranged fixtures that clashed with the Celtic League fixtures.  That's what nearly got them expelled from the League.  However, they were allowed stay after they shifted the fixture list. So how was it ruined by the IRFU/SRU?

If anything, I'd say they got what they wanted and shafted their supposed Celtic partners.   That action sowed the seeds of a lot of discord and mistrust of the WRU and clubs. That distrust reared its head again when the Welsh regions decided to link up with the PRL in the H Cup wrangle to serve their own interests.  Again.  That didn't work out too well either.  

My central point is that if the PRO 12 Chiefs of the clubs decide to go down the route of the proposed changes outlined earlier then the Welsh regions will be agreeing to change/discard the AW Cup themselves. Or if you're saying "ruined" means that if somehow the IRFU/ SRU/FIR through the PRO12 were to persuade the PRL to create a new B&I development competition without requiring the agreement of the Welsh regions, that might be viewed by some as the biter bit.  

If I recall correctly, I thought you espoused the idea of having B&I style competitions.  Surely the idea of creating one at development level involving all the premier clubs might be a good start to see how popular and successful a British & Irish League might be?


It was ruined by the IRFU / SRU because it was forced to be a development competition instead of the full blown competition it was. How can you miss this obvious point?

PRW aligning with PRL for the EPRC worked perfectly for us. It secured our futures against a Union that was trying to shut down PRW. Therefore, how can you legitimately claim 'that didn't work out too well either'? The exact opposite is true.

Your central point seems to be based on a 'maybe' in an article, the hope that PRL would want to deal with the IRFU (and, if you actually remember accurately, your EPRC memories will tell you it was that which 'didn't work out too well) and that there is a desire to change the AW Cup. Those are some hopes.

I don't see the need to ditch the AW Cup in order to try to see if somebody would turn up to watch Leinster A, sorry.

Actually Phil in the midst of all the "I blame the Irish for everything that's wrong in Welsh rugby" stuff, you actually have hit the nail on the head, the current LV set up and any future variants, updates is not in the hands of the Irish, the PRO12 or even the WRU or PRW, it's all in the gift (or otherwise) of PRL and if they decide to do anything different, like have a cup competition for English clubs only, invite the Scots and Irish in, invite the Georgians and Romanians in, all that the Welsh can do is go along with it.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by Irish Londoner on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 12:49 pm

Actually Phil in the midst of all the "I blame the Irish for everything that's wrong in Welsh rugby" stuff, you actually have hit the nail on the head, the current LV set up and any future variants, updates is not in the hands of the Irish, the PRO12 or even the WRU or PRW, it's all in the gift (or otherwise) of PRL and if they decide to do anything different, like have a cup competition for English clubs only, invite the Scots and Irish in, invite the Georgians and Romanians in, all that the Welsh (or anyone else) can do is go along with it.


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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 1:10 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

I don't see how you can claim the comp was ruined once already by the IRFU and SRU. .......
If I recall correctly, I thought you espoused the idea of having B&I style competitions.  Surely the idea of creating one at development level involving all the premier clubs might be a good start to see how popular and successful a British & Irish League might be?


It was ruined by the IRFU / SRU because it was forced to be a development competition instead of the full blown competition it was. How can you miss this obvious point?

PRW aligning with PRL for the EPRC worked perfectly for us. It secured our futures against a Union that was trying to shut down PRW. Therefore, how can you legitimately claim 'that didn't work out too well either'? The exact opposite is true.

Your central point seems to be based on a 'maybe' in an article, the hope that PRL would want to deal with the IRFU (and, if you actually remember accurately, your EPRC memories will tell you it was that which 'didn't work out too well) and that there is a desire to change the AW Cup. Those are some hopes.

I don't see the need to ditch the AW Cup in order to try to see if somebody would turn up to watch Leinster A, sorry.

It was "forced to be a development competition"?   How did the IRFU/SRU 'force' the ERU/WRU/PRL into changing this new comp into being a development one exactly?   The Welsh hadn't even kicked a ball at that stage.

In 2004/05, the WRU had said to SRU/IRFU that it wasn't interested in participating in an additional Rainbow Cup competition involving teams from SA and elsewhere. But they hadn't told their Celtic colleagues that they were already in discussion with the Premiership about joining the Powergen Cup. And when asked twice about it, denied that they were. They then let them know that they were going to be playing in it the following season after the three unions had agreed and signed off on a revised Celtic League schedule and with the IRFU agreeing to use that as the basis for European qualification. The Premiership had wanted to bring in another 4 teams from the Championship to make it a 20 team comp but the WRU turned that down. So a 16-team format was agreed. Even at that point, it was seen by a few commentators as something that the Premiership would not put its senior players into as the season was already overloaded. The WRU wanted the money for participation so they reasoned they could bluff the IRFU/SRU into accepting it as they didn't have any other option. As many Welsh commentators and fans saw it at the time, the Welsh were in the driving seat, and the Irish/Scots would have to live with it - what choice did they have but to accept that 5/6 weekends of the Celtic League schedule would have to be altered?

They didn't expect the Scots/Irish to call their bluff and throw them out of the league. Moffat then made the mistake of accusing them publicly of being childish in their response. As a negotiating tactic it wasn't the brightest move.

A compromise was eventually reached whereby the WRU had to play their Celtic League games in midweek the following season since they wanted to play on international weekends as well. The SRU/IRFU didn't want to play test weekends as they knew this would weaken their teams - that was part of the revised agreement. And the WRU teams had to pay monies to the two unions and sign up to the Celtic League for 4 years to show their commitment. The SRU/IRFU wanted to bring the Italians into the tournament, but the WRU had no interest in them joining.

The season went ahead, and 7 months later, the Wales coach, Mike Ruddock, went public saying that joining the Powergen was a mistake and the focus for the regions should be on the Celtic League and the Heineken Cup. Not long after, the WRU turned around and says they hadn't got around to signing the revised agreement yet. Farcical.

Powergen then said they were stopping their sponsorship, and EDF Energy came on board for the following season. In 2008/9, the Premiership wanted to drop the competition completely but the RFU stepped in and kept it going with the decision to make it a development comp formally since that is what had been happening in practice with the English clubs anyway.

In short, badly handled and managed by the WRU and the regions working in concert. In fairness, I don't recall the WRU or regions blaming the other two unions for what happened with the competition subsequently.

If a revised development competition involving B&I teams was developed for the 2018 season with more backing/financial support and a high-profile sponsor, I suspect the WRU and the RRW would be first out of the traps to want to join given their pedigree and behaviour to date in the comp.

But it's all conjecture at the moment, it may never happen.


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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by HongKongCherry on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 3:11 pm

This thread has attracted more views than those who actually watch this tin pot cup! Wink

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 3:14 pm

Who are the ERU?

Agreed HKC - even as a season ticket holder I rarely attend, having to decide whether the cost of travelling and my time is worth the investment.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 3:19 pm

Calm down, nearly time for the British Open.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 3:27 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Calm down, nearly time for the British Open.

Smile


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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 3:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Calm down, nearly time for the British Open.


warning

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 4:24 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Calm down, nearly time for the British Open.


warning

Surely that should be the British Closed?

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Mon 18 Jul 2016, 8:59 am

Irish Londoner wrote:
Good point - random people commenting on the internet, mostly about subjects they don't understand fully, what do they know ?

That rather depends on whether you're used as the sample size.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Mon 18 Jul 2016, 9:17 am

Pot Hale wrote:
It was "forced to be a development competition"?   How did the IRFU/SRU 'force' the ERU/WRU/PRL into changing this new comp into being a development one exactly?   The Welsh hadn't even kicked a ball at that stage.  

Check your dates on that one.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 18 Jul 2016, 3:41 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
It was "forced to be a development competition"?   How did the IRFU/SRU 'force' the ERU/WRU/PRL into changing this new comp into being a development one exactly?   The Welsh hadn't even kicked a ball at that stage.  

Check your dates on that one.

Just say what you meant instead, it's a lot simpler. I was referring to the time prior to the AW Cup starting. When are you referring to?

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Mon 18 Jul 2016, 4:11 pm

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/celtic-chiefs-send-out-warning-2160875

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 18 Jul 2016, 5:13 pm

PhilBB wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/celtic-chiefs-send-out-warning-2160875

Interesting.

"“I had not been told about that, but I am led to believe it’s still at the exploratory stage,” said Jordan.  And he claimed: “I am not concerned about that. We have an agreed set-up with guiding principles, which we have rolled out and which have been signed off.”

Almost a repeat of the behaviour in 2004/05 that led to the first row over the AW Cup.

However, I thought you were contending that the Scottish & Irish Unions ruined what was a fabulous competition by all accounts at that point.  

This excerpt from an article in the Independent at the time seems to suggest otherwise:

"The current half-baked, largely unloved EDF Energy Cup, which features the 12 Premiership clubs and the four Welsh regions, will be scrapped at the end of the coming season. Precious few English teams take it seriously unless and until they find themselves in the semi-finals – for many, it is nothing more than an opportunity to give underused fringe players and young up-and-comers an afternoon's gainful employment – and even fewer will mourn its passing."

The same article also went on to say:

"If, as many believe, the new top-tier tournament is played during the Six Nations Championship, it will strengthen the Premiership in England by ensuring that top international players appear in more of their clubs' league games than is presently the case. Anything that strengthens the integrity of England's "marquee" competition will win the backing of the majority of the paying public, if not of those supporters whose clubs tend to win Premiership matches only when their more powerful opponents are shorn of front-line personnel."

Then in March 2009, the Guardian had a report entitled:

"Premier Rugby is looking at ways of revamping the Anglo-Welsh Cup next season after Twickenham's refusal to sanction an extra six league matches as a means of combating the economic downturn. The EDF Energy Cup, which is contested by the 12 Premiership clubs and the four Welsh regions, will end in its current form this season. The Rugby Football Union has proposed an alternative tournament, which would involve first division clubs from both countries, but Premier Rugby has rejected it.  The EDF tournament is worth around £600,000 a year to each Premiership club. A replacement competition would drop in value because it would be played primarily during the autumn international and Six Nations periods."


In April 2009, the Telegraph had this to say about a new comp:

"Premier Rugby, the umbrella organisation representing England's 12 clubs, favour replacing the tournament with six additional Premiership fixtures, but the Rugby Football Union has rejected that proposal.
However, informal discussions are taking place this week and there are signs that a compromise will be thrashed out. The new knockout cup will be played over six weekends with English sides guaranteed two home matches in the pool stages instead of the lopsided arrangement which gives clubs one home game one year and two the next.
Senior RFU figures are convinced that EDF can be persuaded to part with £1million to continue as title sponsor, and Sky television are said to be willing to commit £500,000 for broadcast rights.
A revamped Anglo-Welsh tournament will go some way to alleviating the clubs' current difficulties.
"We lose between £2-3m per annum and half the Premiership are roughly doing what we're doing," Saracens' chairman Nigel Wray said recently. "It's a serious financial situation."


And then, there's report in Wales Online in July 2009, which opens with:

"THE ANGLO-WELSH Cup is to go ahead next season after all, with agreement having been reached over a revamped format.

It had been thought the competition might bite the dust altogether, with EDF ending their sponsorship and English clubs having been initially lukewarm on continuing with the venture.

But it’s now been agreed that it will reappear next season, albeit as more of a development tournament, with group matches to be played during the autumn international period in November and knockout games during the Six Nations."


Where in the midst of all this was the competition "ruined by the IRFU / SRU because it was forced to be a development competition instead of the full blown competition it was. How can you miss this obvious point?"


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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Tue 19 Jul 2016, 9:49 am

Pot Hale wrote:

Where in the midst of all this was the competition "ruined by the IRFU / SRU because it was forced to be a development competition instead of the full blown competition it was.  How can you miss this obvious point?"


The first ruining of the tournament was the expulsion of the WRU from the Celtic Accord. The second was the demanding of TV payment money in return for being allowed back in. The third was the moan of the SRU / IRFU with regards to the fixture timing of the tournament.

The WRU, under those circumstances, were struggling to meet the PRL wish for it to be a full blown competition - hence it eventually being forced to development status.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by beshocked on Tue 19 Jul 2016, 10:28 am

I think we could learn more from rugby league.

They of course have the challenge cup, I would welcome a structure more along those lines.

I know the original competition was more like that, I would like a return to that.

The only difference being the Welsh regions involvement.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by munkian on Tue 19 Jul 2016, 11:50 am

So Phil, do you actually think that the LV has the potential to turn into your Holy Grail that is an Anglo/Welsh league ?

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Tue 19 Jul 2016, 12:47 pm

munkian wrote:So Phil, do you actually think that the LV has the potential to turn into your Holy Grail that is an Anglo/Welsh league ?

Well, no.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 19 Jul 2016, 12:53 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

Where in the midst of all this was the competition "ruined by the IRFU / SRU because it was forced to be a development competition instead of the full blown competition it was.  How can you miss this obvious point?"


The first ruining of the tournament was the expulsion of the WRU from the Celtic Accord. The second was the demanding of TV payment money in return for being allowed back in. The third was the moan of the SRU / IRFU with regards to the fixture timing of the tournament.

The WRU, under those circumstances, were struggling to meet the PRL wish for it to be a full blown competition - hence it eventually being forced to development status.

So you are talking about the period before the AW Cup began, which is what I said in the first place. The Welsh regions hadn't even kicked a ball in the comp at that stage. You said to check my dates and pointed to events three years later. Now you're back to referring to events before the AW Cup started.

The WRU was expelled from the Celtic League largely because the WRU thought they were in the driving seat and the Scottish and Irish unions couldn't do anything about their plans for altering the league schedule having signed off on it. Effectively, the WRU was suiting itself. They didn't think the Scottish/Irish unions would deliver on their threat to expel them.

The WRU were allowed back in on certain terms which included payment of monies, no CL games on international weekends for the SRU/IRFU teams, and the WRU being allowed to play their CL games during the week since they wanted to play in the AW Cup during CL matches, but the league had to finish at the sane time for all three unions The WRU got what it wanted. And got the same dispensation on their CL games the following season as well.

The regions didn't have to change a thing. It was the English clubs who had already started to treat the Cup as a development competition and that became more evident as Powergen cancelled their sponsorship, and then EDF Energy did. The PRL wanted to exit and have 6 more Premiership matches but RFU stopped them at that point.

Attempting to blame the Scottish & Irish unions is completely wide of the mark. Looking closer to home and within the PRL clubs would make more sense.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by PhilBB on Tue 19 Jul 2016, 1:33 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
So you are talking about the period before the AW Cup began, which is what I said in the first place.  The Welsh regions hadn't even kicked a ball in the comp at that stage.  You said to check my dates and pointed to events three years later.  Now you're back to referring to events before the AW Cup started.  

The WRU was expelled from the Celtic League largely because the WRU thought they were in the driving seat and the Scottish and Irish unions couldn't do anything about their plans for altering the league schedule having signed off on it.   Effectively, the WRU was suiting itself.    They didn't think the Scottish/Irish unions would deliver on their threat to expel them.  

The WRU were allowed back in on certain terms which included payment of monies, no CL games on international weekends for the SRU/IRFU teams, and the WRU being allowed to play their CL games during the week since they wanted to play in the AW Cup during CL matches, but the league had to finish at the sane time for all three unions  The WRU got what it wanted.  And got the same dispensation on their CL games the following season as well.  

The regions didn't have to change a thing.  It was the English clubs who had already started to treat the Cup as a development competition and that became more evident as Powergen cancelled their sponsorship, and then EDF Energy did.  The PRL wanted to exit and have 6 more Premiership matches but RFU stopped them at that point.  

Attempting to blame the Scottish & Irish unions is completely wide of the mark.  Looking closer to home and within the PRL clubs would make more sense.  

No, I think that you're putting 2+2 to get 5 with regards to the sponsorship issues not being a knock on effect (during EDF's time when it was a full blown competition taken seriously by the big clubs who saw it as a route to Europe 1) from the continued actions of the Irish and Scots.

Your stance about what happened at the start of the competition is independent of the continued push against this competition from the other Unions.

Not calling the bluff of the Irish was another of the WRU's many blunders since professionalism.

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Re: LV Cup Returns

Post by profitius on Tue 19 Jul 2016, 3:38 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
So you are talking about the period before the AW Cup began, which is what I said in the first place.  The Welsh regions hadn't even kicked a ball in the comp at that stage.  You said to check my dates and pointed to events three years later.  Now you're back to referring to events before the AW Cup started.  

The WRU was expelled from the Celtic League largely because the WRU thought they were in the driving seat and the Scottish and Irish unions couldn't do anything about their plans for altering the league schedule having signed off on it.   Effectively, the WRU was suiting itself.    They didn't think the Scottish/Irish unions would deliver on their threat to expel them.  

The WRU were allowed back in on certain terms which included payment of monies, no CL games on international weekends for the SRU/IRFU teams, and the WRU being allowed to play their CL games during the week since they wanted to play in the AW Cup during CL matches, but the league had to finish at the sane time for all three unions  The WRU got what it wanted.  And got the same dispensation on their CL games the following season as well.  

The regions didn't have to change a thing.  It was the English clubs who had already started to treat the Cup as a development competition and that became more evident as Powergen cancelled their sponsorship, and then EDF Energy did.  The PRL wanted to exit and have 6 more Premiership matches but RFU stopped them at that point.  

Attempting to blame the Scottish & Irish unions is completely wide of the mark.  Looking closer to home and within the PRL clubs would make more sense.  

No, I think that you're putting 2+2 to get 5 with regards to the sponsorship issues not being a knock on effect (during EDF's time when it was a full blown competition taken seriously by the big clubs who saw it as a route to Europe 1) from the continued actions of the Irish and Scots.

Your stance about what happened at the start of the competition is independent of the continued push against this competition from the other Unions.

Not calling the bluff of the Irish was another of the WRU's many blunders since professionalism.


It seems all the Irish/Scots did was give the WRU a choice. They said to the WRU to either choose the Celtic league or Anglo-Welsh cup. The WRU had a think about it and decided which was the BEST OPTION.

You ignore the fact that the English don't want an anglo-Welsh league. For many of their clubs it would be like turkeys voting for christmas. Do you think the WRU were not inquiring about an anglo-Welsh league?

I can see it now.
WRU: How about us Welsh and you English join forces lads.
PRL: Great idea! We'll go an discuss it at our next meeting.
WRU: So did ye discuss it?
PRL: Not yet but next time we will. It'll be priority number 1.
WRU: So any news lads?
PRL: We discussed it and the clubs are very open to the idea of it happening down the line.
WRU: So about the anglo-Welsh league talks. Any progress lads?
PRL: Some of our guys are very positive towards the idea. We'll have to see out existing contracts etc first before we discuss it again.
WRU: I see you are in new contract talks. Any progress on the A-W league talks?
PRL: ehhh, oh, yeah, yes indeed! We have made progress. Most chairmen are now warming to the idea. Its getting closer!
WRU: Any news lads?
PRL: Unfortunately due to new TV contracts etc it has to be delayed this time. But we're still discussing it and its high up on our agenda. Just a matter of timing.
WRU: Thanks lads if theres anything we can do for ye, let us know. You'll keep us in mind when the existing TV contracts are up?
PRL: We will. Hang in there.




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Re: LV Cup Returns

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