The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

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Post by Nico the gman on Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:14 am

First topic message reminder :

Munchkin wrote:
Nico the gman wrote:Whether people like it or not the country voted to leave the EU and I don't think there's a cat in hells chance of a 2nd Referendum, those who did fail to vote and wanted to remain have in my opinion no argument.

I don't think a 2nd referendum will happen. I do think a 2nd referendum would vote Remain, even if the exact same voters come out.
Quite possibly.

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Post by Guest on Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:57 am

Ent wrote:It is old people who put a strain on the nhs, not immigrants. If you see an immigrant in hospital they are more than likely looking after you.

So true.

Old people with multiple comorbidities and increasing living up to 100 years and beyond are the strain on the NHS. Fit young immigrants barely make a dent.

Secondly, immigrants tend to look after their elderly whilst we tend to stick them in residential care or leave alone at home with carers four times a day (until they fall and end up in hospital), or leave them rotting in hospital blocking beds until social services can provide a home. Both options are hugely costly.

I stand by my earlier statement that the leave campaign was built upon and won by peddling xenophobia. In the light of what we've heard and seen since - does anyone still disagree? The economic arguments for leave never added up, so why did so many people opt for this? It was the nasty xenophobic campaign run by Farage and Co.

Hope you're all happy - leave voters - as for me, I've had enough of the rise of the far right and will be taking my considerable skills to Jupiter.

ghost

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Post by Guest on Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:13 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:I'm not going to put a lot of effort into defending any of them, the labour party have been trying to destroy Corbyn and force his resignation for last few days and Wes Streeting MP was one of those who called for him to go not a month ago. Ruth Smeeth was sitting next to a lot of media people and they have been releasing stuff to the media all week. She doesn't storm out till the grinning idiot behind her suggest its anti-semitic rather than calling her out for the press. Theres alot of valid reasons to dislike Corbyn and the people who support him right now but racism against jews isn't one of them. He should resign, he's been next to useless in anything of note and the country needs a strong opposition. But this is a media thing against Corbyn and labour mps are sticking the boot in piling on the pressure for him to go. His worst enemies right now are those labour mp's trying to get rid of him before the chilcott report comes out.

I don't doubt that the media are sticking the boot in. I have little respect for the media, but still question if they are justified and, in Corbyns case, I think they are.

It doesn't matter who Smeeth was sitting beside. It wasn't a very large room and people have to sit somewhere and, as you would expect, Labour MPs and journalists would be sitting closer to the front. What does matter is what was said, and Corbyns reaction to it. What also matters is Corbyn comparing Israel to ISIS. It isn't fashionable to spout anti-Semitic rubbish now, so anti-Semites vent their anti-Semitism through attacking Israel. Sometimes attacking the Israeli policies are right, sometimes it is nothing more than thinly veiled anti-Semitism, such as comparing Israel to ISIS.

Corbyns lack of action against clear racism does open the way for others to accuse him of supporting racism within his own party. Livingstone is just one example of that. Ok, action was taken in the latest incident involving Livingstone, however, I doubt any action would have been taken were it not for a public backlash against previous racists remarks and the fact that the incident was televised. Action should have been taken against Livingstone and his warped take on history, gleaned from a discredited historian, long ago.
I've read so many feeble excuses as to how certain remarks were taken out of context, or that they have changed their attitudes since making racist remarks, but it's all waffle. It's a desperate squirming to wriggle of the hook. Anti-Semitism isn't some new thing to Labour, it's been evident for decades.

I want the Labour Party to fully recover from this period of self-destruction, and provide real leadership in very uncertain times. However, the longer Corbyn clings on to his failing leadership, the more likely a split in the Labour Party will be realised. The lunatics really are running the asylum.

Again i'm not going to argue too much, you've already decided and I'm not going to waste too much time defending someone I don't even like. He wasn't comparing Isis and Israel he was comparing Islamophobia to Anti-semitism which is a perfectly valid comparison under the circumstances. He is also asked directly are you comparing Isis and Israel and he says of course not. Just think its a little unfair for Corbyn to take all this flak for things that aren't under his control and give him flak for responding reasonably to all of them - investigating the claims - suspending then having their tribunal.  

Yes, he was. Here's what he said:

"Jews were "no more responsible" for Israel's actions than Muslims were for "those various self-styled Islamic states".

Naz Shah advocated the deportation of Israeli Jews to America, likening the Jewish State to Nazi Germany, and comparing Zionism to al-Qaida. Corbyn didn't want to discipline her, but was forced to by those in his own Party. Not the anti-Semites, such as Livingstone who defended her by excusing her comments:

“a real anti-Semite doesn’t just hate the Jews in Israel.”

Corbyn, anti-Israel, but counts Hamas and Hizbollah as friends.

I could post quite a bit on Corbyn in relation to Israel, but have said enough. I'm sure you will agree  Hug



laughing  I concede

What a load of cack.

Even the whiff of anti-Semitism means political suicide. You become a pariah immediately. Anti-Semitism is used as a tool to silence ANY criticism of Israel - and boy, does she deserve criticism.

Corbyn is clearly not an anti-Semite. He is an anti Zionist (a racist, political ideology) but the media chooses not to differentiate between the two. This is a time worn strategy - attack anyone who dissents against Israel and slur them with the brush of anti-Semitism and if they persist, without overt anti-Semitism, to protest at the crimes of the Zionist state, then accuse them of anti-Semitism by stealth.

The Israeli propaganda machine and her allies are well oiled.

Just refer to the works of Finkelstein, Chomsky, Zinn et al to see the power and influence of Israeli lobbies in Washington and Europe.

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Post by Guest on Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:20 pm

Such a shame and shows how low we've sunk as a society. The only decent, honest and principled politician to hold an office of importance in a long time is being back stabbed by his own party, collaborated with by the right wing media, who are brainwashing the increasingly right wing working classes, to result in what alternative? Torylite? What's the point of the labour party? New Labour and the Tories are indistinguishable. They're outdoing each other to screw over the working people of this country.

The reason corbyn's leadership is failing is because he's never been given a chance. The knives have been out from day one. From all sides.

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Post by Guest on Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:32 pm

Pr4wn wrote:"Jews were "no more responsible" for Israel's actions than Muslims were for "those various self-styled Islamic states".

Sorry but what exactly is wrong with this?

Nothing if you're an anti-Semite, everything if you're a rational human being.


Last edited by Munchkin on Sat Jul 02, 2016 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest on Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:36 pm

emancipator wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:I'm not going to put a lot of effort into defending any of them, the labour party have been trying to destroy Corbyn and force his resignation for last few days and Wes Streeting MP was one of those who called for him to go not a month ago. Ruth Smeeth was sitting next to a lot of media people and they have been releasing stuff to the media all week. She doesn't storm out till the grinning idiot behind her suggest its anti-semitic rather than calling her out for the press. Theres alot of valid reasons to dislike Corbyn and the people who support him right now but racism against jews isn't one of them. He should resign, he's been next to useless in anything of note and the country needs a strong opposition. But this is a media thing against Corbyn and labour mps are sticking the boot in piling on the pressure for him to go. His worst enemies right now are those labour mp's trying to get rid of him before the chilcott report comes out.

I don't doubt that the media are sticking the boot in. I have little respect for the media, but still question if they are justified and, in Corbyns case, I think they are.

It doesn't matter who Smeeth was sitting beside. It wasn't a very large room and people have to sit somewhere and, as you would expect, Labour MPs and journalists would be sitting closer to the front. What does matter is what was said, and Corbyns reaction to it. What also matters is Corbyn comparing Israel to ISIS. It isn't fashionable to spout anti-Semitic rubbish now, so anti-Semites vent their anti-Semitism through attacking Israel. Sometimes attacking the Israeli policies are right, sometimes it is nothing more than thinly veiled anti-Semitism, such as comparing Israel to ISIS.

Corbyns lack of action against clear racism does open the way for others to accuse him of supporting racism within his own party. Livingstone is just one example of that. Ok, action was taken in the latest incident involving Livingstone, however, I doubt any action would have been taken were it not for a public backlash against previous racists remarks and the fact that the incident was televised. Action should have been taken against Livingstone and his warped take on history, gleaned from a discredited historian, long ago.
I've read so many feeble excuses as to how certain remarks were taken out of context, or that they have changed their attitudes since making racist remarks, but it's all waffle. It's a desperate squirming to wriggle of the hook. Anti-Semitism isn't some new thing to Labour, it's been evident for decades.

I want the Labour Party to fully recover from this period of self-destruction, and provide real leadership in very uncertain times. However, the longer Corbyn clings on to his failing leadership, the more likely a split in the Labour Party will be realised. The lunatics really are running the asylum.

Again i'm not going to argue too much, you've already decided and I'm not going to waste too much time defending someone I don't even like. He wasn't comparing Isis and Israel he was comparing Islamophobia to Anti-semitism which is a perfectly valid comparison under the circumstances. He is also asked directly are you comparing Isis and Israel and he says of course not. Just think its a little unfair for Corbyn to take all this flak for things that aren't under his control and give him flak for responding reasonably to all of them - investigating the claims - suspending then having their tribunal.  

Yes, he was. Here's what he said:

"Jews were "no more responsible" for Israel's actions than Muslims were for "those various self-styled Islamic states".

Naz Shah advocated the deportation of Israeli Jews to America, likening the Jewish State to Nazi Germany, and comparing Zionism to al-Qaida. Corbyn didn't want to discipline her, but was forced to by those in his own Party. Not the anti-Semites, such as Livingstone who defended her by excusing her comments:

“a real anti-Semite doesn’t just hate the Jews in Israel.”

Corbyn, anti-Israel, but counts Hamas and Hizbollah as friends.

I could post quite a bit on Corbyn in relation to Israel, but have said enough. I'm sure you will agree  Hug



laughing  I concede

What a load of cack.

Even the whiff of anti-Semitism means political suicide. You become a pariah immediately. Anti-Semitism is used as a tool to silence ANY criticism of Israel - and boy, does she deserve criticism.

Corbyn is clearly not an anti-Semite. He is an anti Zionist (a racist, political ideology) but the media chooses not to differentiate between the two. This is a time worn strategy - attack anyone who dissents against Israel and slur them with the brush of anti-Semitism and if they persist, without overt anti-Semitism, to protest at the crimes of the Zionist state, then accuse them of anti-Semitism by stealth.

The Israeli propaganda machine and her allies are well oiled.

Just refer to the works of Finkelstein, Chomsky, Zinn et al to see the power and influence of Israeli lobbies in Washington and Europe.

Think you're the one that is 'well oiled', you conspiracy loving loon.

Chomsky is as mad as a box of frogs. Can see how you relate to him, fair enough.

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Post by Guest on Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:38 pm

emancipator wrote:Such a shame and shows how low we've sunk as a society. The only decent, honest and principled politician to hold an office of importance in a long time is being back stabbed by his own party, collaborated with by the right wing media, who are brainwashing the increasingly right wing working classes, to result in what alternative? Torylite? What's the point of the labour party? New Labour and the Tories are indistinguishable. They're outdoing each other to screw over the working people of this country.

The reason corbyn's leadership is failing is because he's never been given a chance. The knives have been out from day one. From all sides.

A bit of the rational mixed with a bit of the loony. A bit of therapy needed until you feel secure enough to take your tinfoil hat off, and you're good to go.

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Post by Guest on Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:30 pm

Munchkin wrote:
emancipator wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:I'm not going to put a lot of effort into defending any of them, the labour party have been trying to destroy Corbyn and force his resignation for last few days and Wes Streeting MP was one of those who called for him to go not a month ago. Ruth Smeeth was sitting next to a lot of media people and they have been releasing stuff to the media all week. She doesn't storm out till the grinning idiot behind her suggest its anti-semitic rather than calling her out for the press. Theres alot of valid reasons to dislike Corbyn and the people who support him right now but racism against jews isn't one of them. He should resign, he's been next to useless in anything of note and the country needs a strong opposition. But this is a media thing against Corbyn and labour mps are sticking the boot in piling on the pressure for him to go. His worst enemies right now are those labour mp's trying to get rid of him before the chilcott report comes out.

I don't doubt that the media are sticking the boot in. I have little respect for the media, but still question if they are justified and, in Corbyns case, I think they are.

It doesn't matter who Smeeth was sitting beside. It wasn't a very large room and people have to sit somewhere and, as you would expect, Labour MPs and journalists would be sitting closer to the front. What does matter is what was said, and Corbyns reaction to it. What also matters is Corbyn comparing Israel to ISIS. It isn't fashionable to spout anti-Semitic rubbish now, so anti-Semites vent their anti-Semitism through attacking Israel. Sometimes attacking the Israeli policies are right, sometimes it is nothing more than thinly veiled anti-Semitism, such as comparing Israel to ISIS.

Corbyns lack of action against clear racism does open the way for others to accuse him of supporting racism within his own party. Livingstone is just one example of that. Ok, action was taken in the latest incident involving Livingstone, however, I doubt any action would have been taken were it not for a public backlash against previous racists remarks and the fact that the incident was televised. Action should have been taken against Livingstone and his warped take on history, gleaned from a discredited historian, long ago.
I've read so many feeble excuses as to how certain remarks were taken out of context, or that they have changed their attitudes since making racist remarks, but it's all waffle. It's a desperate squirming to wriggle of the hook. Anti-Semitism isn't some new thing to Labour, it's been evident for decades.

I want the Labour Party to fully recover from this period of self-destruction, and provide real leadership in very uncertain times. However, the longer Corbyn clings on to his failing leadership, the more likely a split in the Labour Party will be realised. The lunatics really are running the asylum.

Again i'm not going to argue too much, you've already decided and I'm not going to waste too much time defending someone I don't even like. He wasn't comparing Isis and Israel he was comparing Islamophobia to Anti-semitism which is a perfectly valid comparison under the circumstances. He is also asked directly are you comparing Isis and Israel and he says of course not. Just think its a little unfair for Corbyn to take all this flak for things that aren't under his control and give him flak for responding reasonably to all of them - investigating the claims - suspending then having their tribunal.  

Yes, he was. Here's what he said:

"Jews were "no more responsible" for Israel's actions than Muslims were for "those various self-styled Islamic states".

Naz Shah advocated the deportation of Israeli Jews to America, likening the Jewish State to Nazi Germany, and comparing Zionism to al-Qaida. Corbyn didn't want to discipline her, but was forced to by those in his own Party. Not the anti-Semites, such as Livingstone who defended her by excusing her comments:

“a real anti-Semite doesn’t just hate the Jews in Israel.”

Corbyn, anti-Israel, but counts Hamas and Hizbollah as friends.

I could post quite a bit on Corbyn in relation to Israel, but have said enough. I'm sure you will agree  Hug



laughing  I concede

What a load of cack.

Even the whiff of anti-Semitism means political suicide. You become a pariah immediately. Anti-Semitism is used as a tool to silence ANY criticism of Israel - and boy, does she deserve criticism.

Corbyn is clearly not an anti-Semite. He is an anti Zionist (a racist, political ideology) but the media chooses not to differentiate between the two. This is a time worn strategy - attack anyone who dissents against Israel and slur them with the brush of anti-Semitism and if they persist, without overt anti-Semitism, to protest at the crimes of the Zionist state, then accuse them of anti-Semitism by stealth.

The Israeli propaganda machine and her allies are well oiled.

Just refer to the works of Finkelstein, Chomsky, Zinn et al to see the power and influence of Israeli lobbies in Washington and Europe.

Think you're the one that is 'well oiled', you conspiracy loving loon.

Chomsky is as mad as a box of frogs. Can see how you relate to him, fair enough.

Brilliant. How original.

Anyone who questions the narrative is dismissed as a conspiracy theorist. Anyone who questions the actions of Israel is an anti-Semite. Failing that, call them a loon.

Are you really stupid enough to believe the BS you read in the papers. Or is it just a knee jerk response to lick establishment arse in your case. Rhetorical.

Chomsky is a professor at MIT. Everything he says is meticulous and verified by the documented record, unlike the plague of lies purported by governments and mainstream media. You should read his book 'Manufacturing consent' - you may actually learn something.

Sadly some people never grow up and others choose to remain blind.

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Post by SecretFly on Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:13 pm

Is it legitimate to criticise Israel - Government policy?

And if so - what reason would people have to be critical?

And if so, how can one voice that legitimate criticism without being tarred anti-Semitic?


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Post by Sin é on Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:33 pm

SecretFly wrote:Is it legitimate to criticise Israel - Government policy?  Of course it is.

And if so - what reason would people have to be critical?  human rights. As well as that, from my experience of them travelling abroad, they are obnoxious (extremely arrogant). However, one of my neighbours is Jewish (fairly orthordox jew) and he is a smashing bloke.

And if so, how can one voice that legitimate criticism without being tarred anti-Semitic? You are not allowed criticise Israel.  See linked article where 40 members of the House of Representatives objected to Obama presenting Mary Robinson (former President of Ireland & UN High Commissioner for Human Rights) the Presidential Medal of Freedom. They accused her of being anti-semitic! 

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/aug/07/nation/na-obama-jews7

Michael D Higgins (Irish President) has also being accused of being anti-semetic because of his support of Palestine. Love this rant he had here on Irish radio with a US right winger.

Worth listening to actually, as what he talks about is very similar to what has happened in the UK over Brixit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBuqfHLkKck
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Post by lostinwales on Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:43 pm

I wish it was easier to separate opinions of Jews as a people and Israel.

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Post by Nico the gman on Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:23 am

Ent wrote:It is old people who put a strain on the nhs, not immigrants. If you see an immigrant in hospital they are more than likely looking after you.
Would that be the same old people who've paid taxes and National Insurance all their working lives, and are probably still paying taxes on their pensions, daft statement to make.

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Post by Rowley on Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:34 am

It's not really a daft statement, it is a statement of fact. It would only be daft had he suggested he begrudged the elderly their reliance on the NHS, which he didn't.

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Post by Sin é on Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:57 am

Professor Michael Dougan assesses UK’s position following vote to leave the EU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dosmKwrAbI
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Post by Nico the gman on Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:22 am

Rowley wrote:It's not really a daft statement, it is a statement of fact. It would only be daft had he suggested he begrudged the elderly their reliance on the NHS, which he didn't.
By suggesting that the elderly are putting a strain on the NHS then that comes over as begrudging, or why mention the word strain.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:25 am

Nico the gman wrote:
Rowley wrote:It's not really a daft statement, it is a statement of fact. It would only be daft had he suggested he begrudged the elderly their reliance on the NHS, which he didn't.
By suggesting that the elderly are putting a strain on the NHS then that comes over as begrudging, or why mention the word strain.

Agreed, it was a very poor choice of words.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:54 am

But that's exactly what is being discussed. The impact of immigration on NHS is just another way of saying they're straining it's resources. It was a bit blunt but it's an accurate summation. People living too long is putting a far greater strain on our resources but the simple fact is that the nation's current generation is not having enough children to support the previous generation's longevity. China's folly was clear to see with their one child policy and resulted in not only death and untold suffering for unwanted children it left them vulnerable as the future was compromised also. Hence their desperation in wanting so much English speakers coming over to teach and provide much needed skills and paying them over the odds even for an industry in demand so they can afford to start families.

Our need for immigration stems from that necessity but it's become so toxic that Cameron didn't even bother emphasising their positive contribution. Similar to munchkins reaction and focus on antisemitism. Anything with even the slightest hint of criticism is shut down to the point where it's not worth getting into it. So the problem simmers in the background without genuine dialogue addressing and debunking false impressions. It'll end up like what happened to black America or Muslims here, where genuine criticism was shut down alongside false criticism by people unable to realise the difference to thr ppint genuine concerns about racism are largely disregarded as playing victim. Now you can't call a black guy the n word but you can shoot his 13 year old son in the back and then sue his family for causing you distress. Sod bloody that. Many of our problems can be addressed with the political will to eliminate waste in governemtn by adopting a John Lewis method where it's in the financial interest of all to ensure an efficient and workable department wherever in the public sector it be. Education also, possibly starting a class on running your household and looking after your health. The NHS said it could save millions in dentistry costs if children just chewed sugar free gums after meals. Small things like this build up overall but there's just no political capital to be made from this so nothing ever happens.

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Post by lostinwales on Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:59 am

Sin é wrote:Professor Michael Dougan assesses UK’s position following vote to leave the EU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dosmKwrAbI

Thanks for flagging that up. Good stuff

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Post by Rowley on Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:11 am

Nico the gman wrote:
Rowley wrote:It's not really a daft statement, it is a statement of fact. It would only be daft had he suggested he begrudged the elderly their reliance on the NHS, which he didn't.
By suggesting that the elderly are putting a strain on the NHS then that comes over as begrudging, or why mention the word strain.

He used the word strain in response to a post suggesting immigrants were putting an unnecessary and unsustainable demand on the NHS, as such the use of it was perfectly understandable, as it was consistent with the point he was looking to rebut.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:16 am

Rowley wrote:
Nico the gman wrote:
Rowley wrote:It's not really a daft statement, it is a statement of fact. It would only be daft had he suggested he begrudged the elderly their reliance on the NHS, which he didn't.
By suggesting that the elderly are putting a strain on the NHS then that comes over as begrudging, or why mention the word strain.

He used the word strain in response to a post suggesting immigrants were putting an unnecessary and unsustainable demand on the NHS, as such the use of it was perfectly understandable, as it was consistent with the point he was looking to rebut.

It doesn't though does it, those who pay into the NHS year in year out cannot be put in the same bracket as those who do not.

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Post by Rowley on Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:21 am

Migrants who come here and work pay taxes and NI same as everyone else, only distinction between them and pensioners is how long they have paid in, however the same is true of you and I in that respect. Non Eu migrants even pay a surcharge now on top of their taxes and NI so technically pay more in.

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Post by temporary21 on Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:25 am

To be honest. You cant control old people being old. Theyre a strain you cant begrudge in any way

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Post by ShahenshahG on Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:55 am

Of course not and no one has suggested that they are or that they should be penalised for it. It's just a simple fact, a fact we have to deal with the best way we can. It's just singularly unhelpful to point to any one group of people and blame them for the dearth of resources at the NHS disposal. This was the point being made by Ent albeit a little clumsily.

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Post by Guest on Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:27 am

ShahenshahG wrote:Of course not and no one has suggested that they are or that they should be penalised for it. It's just a simple fact, a fact we have to deal with the best way we can. It's just singularly unhelpful to point to any one group of people and blame them for the dearth of resources at the NHS disposal.  This was the point being made by Ent albeit a little clumsily.

I think pointing to any one group is a bit of a red herring, as an excuse to overcrowding the NHS. The UK's binge drinking culture, along with obesity also puts a huge strain on the NHS. The fact is the NHS is poorly equipped to deal with a growing UK population, and rising immigration levels does add to that strain.

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Post by Guest on Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:52 am

ShahenshahG wrote:But that's exactly what is being discussed. The impact of immigration on NHS is just another way of saying they're straining it's resources. It was a bit blunt but it's an accurate summation. People living too long is putting a far greater strain on our resources but the simple fact is that the nation's current generation is not having enough children to support the previous generation's longevity. China's folly was clear to see with their one child policy and resulted in not only death and untold suffering for unwanted children it left them vulnerable as the future was compromised also. Hence their desperation in wanting so much English speakers coming over to teach and provide much needed skills and paying them over the odds even for an industry in demand so they can afford to start families.

Our need for immigration stems from that necessity but it's become so toxic that Cameron didn't even bother emphasising their positive contribution. Similar to munchkins reaction and focus on antisemitism. Anything with even the slightest hint of criticism is shut down to the point where it's not worth getting into it. So the problem simmers in the background without genuine dialogue addressing and debunking false impressions. It'll end up like what happened to black America or Muslims here, where genuine criticism was shut down alongside false criticism by people unable to realise the difference to thr ppint genuine concerns about racism are largely disregarded as playing victim.  Now you can't call a black guy the n word but you can shoot his 13 year old son in the back and then sue his family for causing you distress. Sod bloody that. Many of our problems can be addressed with the political will to eliminate waste in governemtn by adopting a John Lewis method where it's in the financial interest of all to ensure an efficient and workable department wherever in the public sector it be. Education also, possibly starting a class on running your household and looking after your health. The NHS said it could save millions in dentistry costs if children just chewed sugar free gums after meals. Small things like this build up overall but there's just no political capital to be made from this so nothing ever happens.

Sorry, Shah, but that's simply not true. My reaction is reasonable. What isn't reasonable is the fingers in the ears, head in the sand, "it's not that bad", "they didn't really mean it", attitude that allows racism to flourish.

There's plenty of evidence to back up my claim, such as;

The Labour Party's ruling National Executive Committee (NEC) preventing the Baroness Royall inquiry into the Oxford University Labour Club's anti-Semitism from being published in full.

Corbyn keeping on Nas Shah as Party Whip after her comment that Israel should be forced to move to the USA. Corbyn reluctantly suspended her after pressure from within his own Party, including his own deputy, the media and the public. The anti-Semite, Ken Livingstone, defended her.

Vicki Kirby - Suspended Sep'2014 for anti-Semitism, brought back in to the Labour Party and suspended again in 2016, reluctantly by Corbyn and only after pressure from his own Party.

Some of her comments:

"What do you do abt Jews? They've got big noses and support spurs lol"

"Who is the Zionist God? I am starting to think it may be Hitler"

"Apparently yu can ask IS/ISIS/ISIL questions on ask.fm. Anyone thought of asking them why theyre not attacking the real oppressors#Israel"

“I will never forget and I will make sure my kids teach their children how evil Israel is!”

Now we have a Labour source making the claim that the Ambassador for Israel "was ok with it", in reference to Corbyn comparing Israel with groups like ISIS. The Ambassadors office have clarified they are not "ok with it", and the claim that they are is a lie. It was good to see Emily Thornberry contacting the Ambassador and apologising to the Ambassador for Corbyns crass remark.

There's plenty within the Labour Party recognise the anti-Semitism element, and actively oppose it, but difficult to do when that opposition to anti-Semitism is resisted by those at the top.

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Post by milkyboy on Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:27 am

good point o the nhs munchy...  the fat, the p*ssed and the old are equally responsible for the strain on the NHS... so that covers pretty much anyone who voted leave Wink They practically live in our hospitals and don't want to have share their wards with any immigrant... it's bad enough being treated by them.

No wonder the £350m back into the NHS lie was such a vote winner. Lets be honest, we all like to stay in a refurbished hotel.
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Post by Guest on Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:33 am

milkyboy wrote:good point o the nhs munchy...  the fat, the p*ssed and the old are equally responsible for the strain on the NHS... so that covers pretty much anyone who voted leave Wink   They practically live in our hospitals and don't want to have share their wards with any immigrant... it's bad enough being treated by them.

No wonder the £350m back into the NHS lie was such a vote winner. Lets be honest, we all like to stay in a refurbished hotel.
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Post by Pr4wn on Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:09 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:"Jews were "no more responsible" for Israel's actions than Muslims were for "those various self-styled Islamic states".

Sorry but what exactly is wrong with this?

Nothing if you're an anti-Semite, everything if you're a rational human being.

What a daft thing to say. Saying that Jews are not responsible for the actions of Israel is antisemitic? Hyperbole in the extreme.

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Post by Ent on Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:15 pm

I work in the nhs, the reason it is busy/under pressure/strained is due to an increasingly elderly population.

Interesting it is completely fine to blame immigrants (incorrectly) for a struggling nhs but it isn't fine to correctly state the above.

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Post by Guest on Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:45 pm

Pr4wn wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:"Jews were "no more responsible" for Israel's actions than Muslims were for "those various self-styled Islamic states".

Sorry but what exactly is wrong with this?

Nothing if you're an anti-Semite, everything if you're a rational human being.

What a daft thing to say. Saying that Jews are not responsible for the actions of Israel is antisemitic? Hyperbole in the extreme.

Nice job in completely ignoring the rest of the comment. You know, the bit that caused the offence......

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Post by Guest on Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:49 pm

Ent wrote:I work in the nhs, the reason it is busy/under pressure/strained is due to an increasingly elderly population.

Interesting it is completely fine to blame immigrants (incorrectly) for a struggling nhs but it isn't fine to correctly state the above.

Maybe some are blaming immigrants, but it's true that the NHS isn't really equipped to deal with an increase of immigrants to the UK. Put it another way; it's not the fault of immigrants, but the lack of funding and the lack of good management.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:34 am

And most people are blaming the immigration policy, not immigrants.

There is a difference.

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Post by Guest on Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:40 am

"Angela Merkel 'to oust Jean-Claude Juncker' as Europe splits deepen over Brexit response"

Some very interesting reading in this article. Although I voted Remain, I am not a fan of the EU, and do have concerns about where it's heading. This article explains some of those concerns.

The article may also give us the reason Junker stabbed the Remain campaign in the back on the eve of the referendum. Maybe Junker really did support Brexit?

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Post by SecretFly on Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:41 am

If that's the 'Telegraph' article you're referring to, Munch, then that whole article to me outlines precisely all that is wrong with the EU as currently constructed.

1. The Many Branches of EU 'Leadership' - designed to be multifaceted for the very purpose of evasion:  Commission v Council v EU Parliament v National Leaders v Superior National Leaders.

2. The Blame Game Propaganda when things go wrong.  There is always someone else to blame - the National leaders blame the Commission.  The EU Parliament blames the National Leaders.  Merkel (one of the 'Superior' Leaders) blames anyone she feels will offset any blame falling on her.

3. The cheeky allusion to the 'Federalist' Juncker.  Junker isn't Federalist on his own - the EU is Federalist with him.  Juncker is only doing his job.  He feels that is his role to promote deeper and deeper unity and that actually IS his role.  His successor will have the same Federalist view because a Federalist EU is the goal in most recent treaties.

Federalism is the EU's chosen future and that is the most fundamental truth adhering to the EU that virtually everyone wants to ignore for some weird reason that I can never fathom.  
Eurosceptics surprisingly go out of their way to talk around it and always choose to talk instead about the 'details' of tax, immigration, EU funding, fishing quotas etc instead.  
Pro EUers obviously ignore it too until challenged about it - and then they say no Governments can be forced into a United States of Europe against their will.  The EU is already on the path.  Burying heads in the sand can't obviate the truth.  The only differences between people like Merkel and Junker is the timeframe they see for full integration and how well they feel the goal should be disguised from the normally indifferent general public of all Nations.  

Merkel isn't annoyed by 'Federalist' Junker's philosophy - she's irritated that he's being publically brash about it.  She fears he's needlessly bringing the ultimate Goal into too public a spotlight.

Eurosceptics want the EU to commit suicide so that something else far less didactic and Governmental can emerge in Europe to create real cooperation between Equal States.  EU champions, many of them, don't see anything wrong with a Federal Europe.  Now is the time for all Federalists, in all Nations, to admit that truth and stop trying to fool the sceptics.  

The debate is between those that want a Federal Europe and those that want a Trading Zone of 27 or 28 Sovereign Nations.  That's the only genuine debate left.  
There can be no compromise on two such fundamentally different philosophies.  Trying to find a middle ground of compromise is foolish.  Only one model can survive.

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Post by Sin é on Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:47 am

The reason Merkel isn't keen on further integration (and she is the one with the big purse strings) is that she doesn't want to have to bail out Spain, Italy and France. That would sink Germany.

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Post by rodders on Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:34 pm

SecretFly wrote:
The debate is between those that want a Federal Europe and those that want a Trading Zone of 27 or 28 Sovereign Nations.  That's the only genuine debate left.  
There can be no compromise on two such fundamentally different philosophies.  Trying to find a middle ground of compromise is foolish.  Only one model can survive.

That's not the debate. The compromise was closer integration within the countries that have the Euro, which is necessary for that currency to work.

The UK already had assurances that they were exempt from closer integration, which was part of the deal Cameron negotiated.

They had their cake and were able to eat it too but instead dropped the cake on the floor,

But its fine, Theresa May will stall until next year, by which time the EU will make some tweaks to allow the UK to save face and remain via a second referendum.
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Post by Coxy001 on Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:46 pm

Legal stuff going on regarding the MPs having a vote on whether to invoke article 50. Interesting as how many will die on their swords by voting to not invoke it?

And I really really want to slap Leadsom round the face with a big cod. The whining little cow is another BoJo who has vociferously voiced her opinion we shouldn't leave the EU and is now spouting in the other direction we should leave only because she wants to be PM.

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Post by rodders on Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:02 pm

Coxy001 wrote:
And I really really want to slap Leadsom round the face with a big cod. The whining little cow is another BoJo who has vociferously voiced her opinion we shouldn't leave the EU and is now spouting in the other direction we should leave only because she wants to be PM.

A bit like the rest of the leave camp then.
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Post by Derbymanc on Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:24 pm

You remain lot are a whiny bunch of beggars aintcha :-) Bring on the referendum was the cry before, no way we'll lose. Now it's gone and it's desperation to find a way out of it or blame something else.

On a serious note, at this point in time nobody is coming out of this looking good at the minute from either side. The remains look like a bunch of crybabies intent on complaining instead of actually trying to find some solutions.

The Leave look like they never expected to win and now don't have a clue, both parties look like they're disintegrating from within and nobody wants to take the responisibility at this time.

The country voted (doesn't matter about the margin) and now is the time for us to come together and work out what to do next imo.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:25 pm

Farage has resigned having "done his bit". Thank you for everything Nigel.

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Post by Coxy001 on Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:39 pm

Derbymanc wrote:You remain lot are a whiny bunch of beggars aintcha :-) Bring on the referendum was the cry before, no way we'll lose. Now it's gone and it's desperation to find a way out of it or blame something else.

On a serious note, at this point in time nobody is coming out of this looking good at the minute from either side. The remains look like a bunch of crybabies intent on complaining instead of actually trying to find some solutions.

The Leave look like they never expected to win and now don't have a clue, both parties look like they're disintegrating from within and nobody wants to take the responisibility at this time.

The country voted (doesn't matter about the margin) and now is the time for us to come together and work out what to do next imo.

Go in to a blind panic, that's what. We're screwed!!!!!!

And in massively good news Farage has stood down. The irritating (and some more) embodiment of UKIP will hopefully lead to the demise of the party, Douglas *boring* Carswell doesn't have the same ability of resonating with the morons of society.

That and Labour getting wiped out at the next GE due to Corbyn and May being the only hope we have of not committing economic suicide = my groggy Monday morning has taken a turn for the better.

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:41 pm

Derbymanc wrote:You remain lot are a whiny bunch of beggars aintcha :-) Bring on the referendum was the cry before, no way we'll lose. Now it's gone and it's desperation to find a way out of it or blame something else.

On a serious note, at this point in time nobody is coming out of this looking good at the minute from either side. The remains look like a bunch of crybabies intent on complaining instead of actually trying to find some solutions.

The Leave look like they never expected to win and now don't have a clue, both parties look like they're disintegrating from within and nobody wants to take the responisibility at this time.

The country voted (doesn't matter about the margin) and now is the time for us to come together and work out what to do next imo.

Cameron has resigned, thus delaying the need to invoke Article 50. Osborne has reversed his fiscal targets, called off his emergency budget and already promised to slash corporation tax. Carney has promised to issue monetary support either through a further interest rate cut or quantitative easing. The net effect of these measures has been to steady the markets and stabilise the economy (for now). Sturgeon has been extremely productive - forming working groups to set out all the options for Scotland (she started work immediately, three days before any Westminster politicians turned up to work) and meeting the EU leaders to discuss those options. I don't think you can accuse the Remainers of doing nothing, unless you mean Corbyn.

As for the Leavers, well then I agree with you. It has been nothing short of a complete and utter shambles. Boris has walked out. Farage has walked out. Gove has done nothing other than working behind the scenes to advance his career.

It's one of the bitterest pills to swallow after this result. The fact that those who lead the Brexit charge appear to lack any sort of leadership and vision post-vote. It's basically just been a Tory bloodbath, with Boris reduced to sniping from the sidelines via his Torygraph weekly piece (and a nice little earner it is for him too).

Here's another question - I wonder how much constituency work the likes of Boris and Gove have been doing this last week, given their complete lack of input on the Brexit solution? I'd like to think that as well as sorting out their own careers, they have managed to find just a little bit of time to deal with constituency work as well.

It's nice to think of the country now "coming together", but I think it'll take a genuinely positive vision of the country's future coming from the Leavers before there's any chance of that. Remainers need to be convinced that there's going to be some benefit to the country arising from this decision. That for all the silly reasons being given for voting Leave (a dislike of European milk and a desire for things to be a little bit more like they used to be), they have some good ones as well. It's time for the Brexit wing of politics to stand up and shine. They are the only ones who can truly unite the country. It's why the idea that we could have a Remainer like May leading the Brexit charge is so odd! Each time May stands at the podium to discuss progress with the EU negotiations and to ask the country to trust her, we'll all know that she actually thinks the best thing to do is not serve the Article 50 notice/rejoin the EU. Odd.

As for Osborne's announcement on corporation tax this morning. That's really going to help with EU negotiations!!

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Post by rodders on Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:14 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Here's another question - I wonder how much constituency work the likes of Boris and Gove have been doing this last week, given their complete lack of input on the Brexit solution? I'd like to think that as well as sorting out their own careers, they have managed to find just a little bit of time to deal with constituency work as well.

Well Gove and Farage were busy hanging out with Rupert Murdoch, not sure about poor Boris - he should have time on his hands.
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Post by lostinwales on Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:40 pm

Coxy001 wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:You remain lot are a whiny bunch of beggars aintcha :-) Bring on the referendum was the cry before, no way we'll lose. Now it's gone and it's desperation to find a way out of it or blame something else.

On a serious note, at this point in time nobody is coming out of this looking good at the minute from either side. The remains look like a bunch of crybabies intent on complaining instead of actually trying to find some solutions.

The Leave look like they never expected to win and now don't have a clue, both parties look like they're disintegrating from within and nobody wants to take the responisibility at this time.

The country voted (doesn't matter about the margin) and now is the time for us to come together and work out what to do next imo.

Go in to a blind panic, that's what. We're screwed!!!!!!

And in massively good news Farage has stood down. The irritating (and some more) embodiment of UKIP will hopefully lead to the demise of the party, Douglas *boring* Carswell doesn't have the same ability of resonating with the morons of society.

That and Labour getting wiped out at the next GE due to Corbyn and May being the only hope we have of not committing economic suicide = my groggy Monday morning has taken a turn for the better.

Problem is if/when the Labour party totally disintegrate the Tories could stand on a ticket of declaring war on Mars and still win by a landslide.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:46 pm

Thank you Nige, you bloody hero.

Steven Woolfe for next leader, please.

(Note: He is the clear front-runner, but is priced incredibly generously at 7/2).

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Post by Sin é on Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:47 pm

I think May might be your best bet. With Juncker out of the EU negotiating team, I think she might be a better person to lead it. Merkel is much more conciliatory and will want to do good business and will not want to humiliate the UK as the French want. Merkel has learned on what happens when you try and humiliate a nation from how Germany was treated after the WW1.

Wasn't Leadsom a banker in her previous life? I wouldn't trust her as far as I'd throw here.



Interesting article here on France's vision for Europe.

The French Right’s plan to save Europe: More France


http://www.politico.eu/article/the-french-rights-plan-to-save-europe-more-france-brexit-breakup-leave-eu-nicolas-sarkozy-les-republicains/
Nicolas Sarkozy and his conservative rivals are all imagining the future of the EU.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:08 pm

milkyboy wrote:100 years ago today, thousands of british soldiers lay down their lives in a fight for europe, misinformed by their leaders about what lay ahead they tragically went over the top at the Somme.

100 years later and the british public are misinformed by their leaders regarding what lays ahead in a 'battle' to get out of europe.

I don't wish in anyway to trivialise the greatest loss of life experienced by british soldiers in a single day, but I was struck by the irony... the lions are still led by donkeys. Wouldn't it be great, if our leaders could draw inspiration at a sobering time of remembrance and put side before self. I won't hold my breath.
Sorry. Not a great comparison and don't believe that Alan Clarke nonsense about 'Lions led by donkeys' as it's pretty much nonsense. British officers' casualty rates were extraordinarily high right up to, and including, the higher ranks. The barrage pre-Somme was utterly enormous so why expect the German resistance that resulted? Also, the majority of the British on the Somme were 'Kitchener' troops and the Somme was pretty much their first combat.
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Post by Coxy001 on Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:11 pm

Duty281 wrote:Thank you Nige, you bloody hero.

Steven Woolfe for next leader, please.

(Note: He is the clear front-runner, but is priced incredibly generously at 7/2).

The irony that a party who produced a poster with a line of immigrants fleeing their country would have a black man running it is obviously lost on you... That and the morons of society who voted UKIP on the racist vote will all shout at him "go back to where you belong" I'm assuming.


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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:29 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:"Jews were "no more responsible" for Israel's actions than Muslims were for "those various self-styled Islamic states".

Sorry but what exactly is wrong with this?

Nothing if you're an anti-Semite, everything if you're a rational human being.
Nonsense. That quote, above, can't portray the nuance of how it was said. You choose to read between the lines and take it to mean it's anti-Semitic. It could just as easily be (and, I suggest, is much more likely to have been meant) taken as is written. In other words, 'Jews', as a wider group, aren't responsible for Israel's idiotic behaviour any more than 'Muslims' as a wider group are responsible for Daesh and their idiotic behaviour. I'm not sure I see a problem with the latter interpretation. Do you have special inside knowledge as to Corbyn's mindset?
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Post by SecretFly on Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:48 pm

Sin é wrote:



Interesting article here on France's vision for Europe.

The French Right’s plan to save Europe: More France


http://www.politico.eu/article/the-french-rights-plan-to-save-europe-more-france-brexit-breakup-leave-eu-nicolas-sarkozy-les-republicains/
Nicolas Sarkozy and his conservative rivals are all imagining the future of the EU.

In short, the French haven't a clue how to govern either themselves or the EU.


SecretFly

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:12 pm

Coxy001 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Thank you Nige, you bloody hero.

Steven Woolfe for next leader, please.

(Note: He is the clear front-runner, but is priced incredibly generously at 7/2).

The irony that a party who produced a poster with a line of immigrants fleeing their country would have a black man running it is obviously lost on you... That and the morons of society who voted UKIP on the racist vote will all shout at him "go back to where you belong" I'm assuming.


Life is so black and white with people like you...

Anyone that votes UKIP is a racist
Anyone that votes Labour is jealous of rich people..

Constant negative stereotyping..

Cheap..

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