The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

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Post by Nico the gman on Thu 30 Jun 2016, 10:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

Munchkin wrote:
Nico the gman wrote:Whether people like it or not the country voted to leave the EU and I don't think there's a cat in hells chance of a 2nd Referendum, those who did fail to vote and wanted to remain have in my opinion no argument.

I don't think a 2nd referendum will happen. I do think a 2nd referendum would vote Remain, even if the exact same voters come out.
Quite possibly.

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Post by Guest on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 11:42 am

rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
rodders wrote:

If capitalism functioned as it should be then the poor and lazy would be one and the same.


No...not remotely right.  That is not so.  If a Nation has a certain defined wealth - capitalism allows that to be a race to see who gets most of it and who gets less.  There will always be a percentage that have to accept virtually nothing.  It's arrogant to say they're lazy - they are serving the system that allows the super rich to take more than their 'fair' share of the wealth.  . Wink  
If a hard working low skilled but necessary worker has £10 in his pocket............ the people above him on the wealth scale still want it.  They fight for his £10.

There is no capping system in pure Capitalism

That's only true for a closed economy, which ironically, some want the UK to move back to.

In a global economy national defined wealth doesn't present the capital ceiling - people may be limited to a percentage but if the pie is bigger then the amount increases even if the percentage doesn't.
10% or 15% of sweet f*ck all, is still ......sweet f*ck all!

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 11:45 am

Gove: 'I Will bring immigration numbers down'

I believe him. Lets see how many people will want to move to a Britain led by him.

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Post by rodders on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 11:47 am

DAVE667 wrote:
rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
rodders wrote:

If capitalism functioned as it should be then the poor and lazy would be one and the same.


No...not remotely right.  That is not so.  If a Nation has a certain defined wealth - capitalism allows that to be a race to see who gets most of it and who gets less.  There will always be a percentage that have to accept virtually nothing.  It's arrogant to say they're lazy - they are serving the system that allows the super rich to take more than their 'fair' share of the wealth.  . Wink  
If a hard working low skilled but necessary worker has £10 in his pocket............ the people above him on the wealth scale still want it.  They fight for his £10.

There is no capping system in pure Capitalism

That's only true for a closed economy, which ironically, some want the UK to move back to.

In a global economy national defined wealth doesn't present the capital ceiling - people may be limited to a percentage but if the pie is bigger then the amount increases even if the percentage doesn't.
10% or 15% of sweet f*ck all, is still ......sweet f*ck all!

Here I'll help you out - 10% of the UK market or 10% of the EU market - which is bigger?
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Post by Guest on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 11:49 am

Ironic to think that today marks the 100th anniversary of the Somme when scores of inept leaders send the masses to their doom and now a century later, the masses have sent scores of inept leaders to their doom.

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Post by Guest on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 11:50 am

rodders wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
rodders wrote:

If capitalism functioned as it should be then the poor and lazy would be one and the same.


No...not remotely right.  That is not so.  If a Nation has a certain defined wealth - capitalism allows that to be a race to see who gets most of it and who gets less.  There will always be a percentage that have to accept virtually nothing.  It's arrogant to say they're lazy - they are serving the system that allows the super rich to take more than their 'fair' share of the wealth.  . Wink  
If a hard working low skilled but necessary worker has £10 in his pocket............ the people above him on the wealth scale still want it.  They fight for his £10.

There is no capping system in pure Capitalism

That's only true for a closed economy, which ironically, some want the UK to move back to.

In a global economy national defined wealth doesn't present the capital ceiling - people may be limited to a percentage but if the pie is bigger then the amount increases even if the percentage doesn't.
10% or 15% of sweet f*ck all, is still ......sweet f*ck all!

Here I'll help you out -  10% of the UK market or 10% of the EU market - which is bigger?
It's still f*ck all to the downtrodden low skilled but necessary working man, Rodders.

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Post by rodders on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 11:51 am

DAVE667 wrote:Ironic to think that today marks the 100th anniversary of the Somme when scores of inept leaders send the masses to their doom and now a century later, the masses have sent scores of inept leaders to their doom.

Don't worry the leaders will be fine -exactly as they were 100 years ago.
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Post by rodders on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 11:55 am

DAVE667 wrote:
It's still f*ck all to the downtrodden low skilled but necessary working man, Rodders.  

Well the down trodden Eastern europeans don't seem to have a problem.

Maybe mssrs Joe Smith and Dai Jones need to get off their arses, take some risks and work a bit harder, rather than expect a 30 pounds an hour for doing manual labor.
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Post by temporary21 on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 12:01 pm

That's not the problem. You're missing the point. It's not that they're lazy but that an oversupply of low skilled workers has driven pay down to levels where it's not even good ebough for a basic living in places

What you're suggesting is that the poorest should just out up with being even poorer for the sake of being frightened that putting a cap on low skilled immigration might be racist

It's that kind of idea that decided a lot of the vote

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Post by rodders on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 12:16 pm

temporary21 wrote:That's not the problem. You're missing the point. It's not that they're lazy but that an oversupply of low skilled workers has driven pay down to levels where it's not even good ebough for a basic living in places

What you're suggesting is that the poorest should just out up with being even poorer for the sake of being frightened that putting a cap on low skilled immigration might be racist

It is racist to discriminate on grounds of nationality.

They are lazy because free movement works both ways, if someone with low skills expects a high wage then they need to up skill or move somewhere where their skills are more in demand - the same as everyone else does, not expect the state to intervene to remove the competition so they can live on over inflated salaries and hold employers to ransom.

If people want a living wage the answer is to set a state minimum wage that applies to all workers, both eu nationals and non - EU migrants, which incidentally we have.
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Post by Ent on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 12:19 pm

That point re immigration lowering wages is somewhat disputed. There's Bank of England analysis that states that the worst case scenario is a 1% decrease in group D/E.

A lot of immigration to the uk is in the professional and high paid sectors.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 12:28 pm

About 5 years ago I got suspended for lamping a couple of gypsies who were picking a fight with my colleague. I wasn't working full time then. I went to work in about 12 different factories Tring to juggle work at 2 or 3 of them. As soon as they realised I could speak English they started giving me more work than I could take and this was replicated at all the factories I worked at during those 8 months. In that time about 30 40 English born people of a variety of races had come and gone and the pattern was the same. All with some fair amount of education/qualifications and all of them were low in confidence. The reason wages are so low isn't entirely because of competition from immigrants. Some of these factories are begging for workers and are paying at and above living wage. The problem is that traditionally middle class wages were suppressed by Blair's stupid plan to get every one and the dog in university. This also had the effect of galvanising our youth to study hard get qualified then realise their degrees had been devalued.

In addition to this in a typical British arrogant attitude we put down low skilled jobs in an effort to encourage our kids to bigger things that weren't quite available in the numbers we needed. So you've got hundreds of thousands of kids wandering around working in jobs that their parents told them meant failure. This has a profound effect on their psyche and that lack of confidence has manifested in lots of kids holding places that should have been temporary while they moved onto big things. This demoralising rut needs to be addressed and things will improve tenfold

I'd suggest proper apprenticeships. As in manual labour with marked and visible progress and where something is physically produced be it a table, a chair etc. This is important because then the poor sod can look at it and realise that he or she is not useless and there is hope. Also it will make them love the graft. Once they regain that confidence they'll start moving up and out leaving the traditionally low skilled their jobs at a small but crucial increase in wages and help them become independent. But the government needs to get its fecking finger out.

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Post by temporary21 on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 12:34 pm

Maybe so. This attitude however of sit and swallow everything we throw at you is the entire reason you lost the vote. They wanted to be heard abd have had enough of that kind of opinion.  As though getting out of poverty is easy

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Post by Rowley on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 1:27 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:

I'd suggest proper apprenticeships. .

The emphasis needs to be on proper. My nephew did an apprenticeship for an engineering firm. He did things right, turned up when he is meant to, worked hard, dressed smart and put the graft in and I'm not saying this solely out of bias but he is not stupid, particularly with IT related stuff. He is genuinely interested it in and good with it. He completed the two years doing the most tedious, basic database entry and management. He was taken on at the end of his two years and has done another two years since. He is still doing the same stuff, completely brainless data entry, on a salary little more than when he was an apprentice.

The consequence is he is now going to leave and go to Uni in September. Far too many employers treat apprenticeships as cheap labour unfortunately.

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Post by rodders on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 1:35 pm

temporary21 wrote:Maybe so. This attitude however of sit and swallow everything we throw at you is the entire reason you lost the vote. They wanted to be heard abd have had enough of that kind of opinion.  As though getting out of poverty is easy

That's not what I said - people shouldn't sit and swallow what life throws at all - but rather than find scapegoats people need to look at themselves and not expect the world owes them something.

Getting out of poverty is not easy, in fact it's a lot harder than it should be but that is down to UK government policy not the EU.
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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 1:59 pm

Rowley wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:

I'd suggest proper apprenticeships. .

The emphasis needs to be on proper. My nephew did an apprenticeship for an engineering firm. He did things right, turned up when he is meant to, worked hard, dressed smart and put the graft in and I'm not saying this solely out of bias but he is not stupid, particularly with IT related stuff. He is genuinely interested it in and good with it. He completed the two years doing the most tedious, basic database entry and management. He was taken on at the end of his two years and has done another two years since. He is still doing the same stuff, completely brainless data entry, on a salary little more than when he was an apprentice.

The consequence is he is now going to leave and go to Uni in September. Far too many employers treat apprenticeships as cheap labour unfortunately.

Yeah that's what I meant by proper. These apprenticeships are in reality a cop out to fiddle with the unemployment figures. It's why I suggested manual labour apprenticeships like carpentry, you can't fudge a out on those ones. It's less about the actual skills learned and more about the habit of working of taking pride in the work and understanding that you can push further past what you think you can. If you can get that and get some serious working skills as well then that's a bonus.

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Post by temporary21 on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:00 pm

Fair enough I think. Then you must at least be able to understand their viewpoint that freedom of movement from countries with lower on average minimum standard of living compared to the U.K, who are now creating huge competition for their roles is worrying to them.

They rightly feel that immigration needs better control. Once junker on the day before the referendum said there would be no consessions on that, he sealed the result

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Post by Guest on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:00 pm

rodders wrote:
I don't think 17.5 million people who voted Brexit are unemployed, ill informed and/or racist.

I think many people have valid reasons as to why they prefer to be outside the EU - for instance maybe some small business owners find the regulation difficult, laborers who've found their wages suppressed due to free movement.  Others are frustrated with the Bureaucracy in Brussels. I respect this completely even if I don't agree that leaving is the answer.

However without the ill informed and xenophobes leave would simply not have won, not even close.

The vast majority of average people in the UK benefit from EU membership so many people have voted to give themselves, their children and grandchildren a worse quality of living - therefore it is not a quantum leap to say such people, including many in Wales are simply ignorant, naive or stupid.

Are all leave voters racist or xenophobes, all 17.5 million? No of course not but certainly what has been exposed is that there are millions of racists and xenophobes in the UK, mainly but not confined to the working class and washing over this reality is a big mistake and has been for a number of years.

We now have openly racist organisations in the mainstream able to promote racist propaganda under the banner of free speech - this more so than anything Gove or Johnson has said has let to the referendum result and the mess the country is now in.

I don't know if it's true that there are more working class racists than middle class racists. I would like to see some facts to back up that assertion.

I think you're taking a bit of a leap in claiming that racist propaganda is the main cause of the referendum result. The causes were varied, as you have acknowledged, and immigration would be one of the main issues, however, both Gove and Boris fought their campaign on perceived issues surrounding immigration, and lack of control.

Issues with immigration and a racist attitude are not necessarily the same thing, although there is an obvious overlap. Some will be anti-immigration because of a racist ideology, some (the strong majority) will be anti-immigration because of genuine concerns about impact on wage levels, a crowded NHS, housing, etc. It should also be noted that 'anti-immigration' more often means 'anti-immigration policy' rather than an issue with the immigrants coming into the UK.

Thinking about racist organisations in the mainstream; the Conservative Party, the Police and the legal profession could all be accused of being institutionally racist. The Labour Party does in fact have a racist faction. The depth of anti-Semitism within its ranks is anyone's guess, but certainly evident at the top. It beggars belief that in their conference on anti-Semitism, last night, Corbyn compares Israel to ISIS, and one of his Momentum clowns comes out with a pathetic anti-Semitic conspiracy, and against a Jewish Labour MP who was sitting in the same room! Corbyn, of course, did nothing to intervene, and was seen happily chatting to the racist immediately after the conference.

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Post by rodders on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:14 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Issues with immigration and a racist attitude are not necessarily the same thing, although there is an obvious overlap. Some will be anti-immigration because of a racist ideology, some (the strong majority) will be anti-immigration because of genuine concerns about impact on wage levels, a crowded NHS, housing, etc. It should also be noted that 'anti-immigration' more often means 'anti-immigration policy' rather than an issue with the immigrants coming into the UK.

That is only true if you believe that the issues around the NHS, wage levels, housing are attributable to immigration and specifically EU migration.

Remember this wasn't a referendum about immigration, although many have made it out to be, it was about EU membership and the leave camp have led people to believe EU membership amounts to handing over billions of pounds in return for being told what to do by foreigners and leaving our borders totally open for the rest of the world to come and sponge of Britains welfare system and health service.

However as has been pointed out several times - EU migration makes up less than half of overall net migration and contributes 1.20 for each pound taken so is a net benefit to the UK economy and therefore public services so the above concerns are simply bogus.
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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:16 pm

temporary21 wrote:Fair enough I think. Then you must at least be able to understand their viewpoint that freedom of movement from countries with lower on average minimum standard of living compared to the U.K, who are now creating huge competition for their roles is worrying to them.

They rightly feel that immigration needs better control. Once junker on the day before the referendum said there would be no concessions on that, he sealed the result

He told the truth, it might not have been prudent but he told the truth rather than say one thing then renege 5 minutes after the referendum. He could have just as easily lied like the leave campaign or like Gove is doing now in his leadership bid - still claiming the 350 million figure.

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Post by rodders on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:17 pm

Munchkin wrote:
I don't know if it's true that there are more working class racists than middle class racists. I would like to see some facts to back up that assertion.

Very good point. Possibly that is an unfair stereotype.
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Post by temporary21 on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:22 pm

Fair enough to him he told the truth. That just means the truth was that the eu was not something they wanted to be part of

It also would suggest that maybe the result is more a true reflection of the countries views on it than we want

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Post by rodders on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:23 pm

temporary21 wrote:Fair enough I think. Then you must at least be able to understand their viewpoint that freedom of movement from countries with lower on average minimum standard of living compared to the U.K, who are now creating huge competition for their roles is worrying to them.

They rightly feel that immigration needs better control. Once junker on the day before the referendum said there would be no consessions on that, he sealed the result

So the issue is just migration from countries with lower minimum standard of living - we are good with migration from countries with higher standard?

STEM graduates and professionals should just suck up the global competition as long the factory line worker gets his 200% pay hike and 2 hour lunch break?
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Post by temporary21 on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:24 pm

Another point would if they benefit on average. To WHO do they benefit most. The poorest don't see those that make up the upper echelons of that contribution

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:25 pm

Munchkin wrote:
rodders wrote:
I don't think 17.5 million people who voted Brexit are unemployed, ill informed and/or racist.

I think many people have valid reasons as to why they prefer to be outside the EU - for instance maybe some small business owners find the regulation difficult, laborers who've found their wages suppressed due to free movement.  Others are frustrated with the Bureaucracy in Brussels. I respect this completely even if I don't agree that leaving is the answer.

However without the ill informed and xenophobes leave would simply not have won, not even close.

The vast majority of average people in the UK benefit from EU membership so many people have voted to give themselves, their children and grandchildren a worse quality of living - therefore it is not a quantum leap to say such people, including many in Wales are simply ignorant, naive or stupid.

Are all leave voters racist or xenophobes, all 17.5 million? No of course not but certainly what has been exposed is that there are millions of racists and xenophobes in the UK, mainly but not confined to the working class and washing over this reality is a big mistake and has been for a number of years.

We now have openly racist organisations in the mainstream able to promote racist propaganda under the banner of free speech - this more so than anything Gove or Johnson has said has let to the referendum result and the mess the country is now in.

I don't know if it's true that there are more working class racists than middle class racists. I would like to see some facts to back up that assertion.

I think you're taking a bit of a leap in claiming that racist propaganda is the main cause of the referendum result. The causes were varied, as you have acknowledged, and immigration would be one of the main issues, however, both Gove and Boris fought their campaign on perceived issues surrounding immigration, and lack of control.

Issues with immigration and a racist attitude are not necessarily the same thing, although there is an obvious overlap. Some will be anti-immigration because of a racist ideology, some (the strong majority) will be anti-immigration because of genuine concerns about impact on wage levels, a crowded NHS, housing, etc. It should also be noted that 'anti-immigration' more often means 'anti-immigration policy' rather than an issue with the immigrants coming into the UK.

Thinking about racist organisations in the mainstream; the Conservative Party, the Police and the legal profession could all be accused of being institutionally racist. The Labour Party does in fact have a racist faction. The depth of anti-Semitism within its ranks is anyone's guess, but certainly evident at the top. It beggars belief that in their conference on anti-Semitism, last night, Corbyn compares Israel to ISIS, and one of his Momentum clowns comes out with a pathetic anti-Semitic conspiracy, and against a Jewish Labour MP who was sitting in the same room! Corbyn, of course, did nothing to intervene, and was seen happily chatting to the racist immediately after the conference.

He accused her of colluding with the daily telegraph - which she was - all of the anti corbyn mob has been working with the press since he was selected. She took it as anti-Semitic because she's Jewish whereas the guy said

"I saw that the Telegraph handed a copy of a press release to Ruth Smeeth MP so you can see who is working hand in hand."

Also he didn't compare the two, he said (as Jewish people are often the targets for Israels crimes) that neither were responsible for the evil committed by the groups they were getting abused for.


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Post by rodders on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:25 pm

temporary21 wrote:Another point would if they benefit on average. To WHO do they benefit most. The poorest don't see those that make up the upper echelons of that contribution

Who do you benefit?
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Post by temporary21 on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:26 pm

It works best with countries that are broadly equal in standard of living. What you describe would mean loads of us going over to there. Then we would be the problem.


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Post by temporary21 on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:27 pm

???
That doesn't make any sense as a reply

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Post by rodders on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:27 pm

temporary21 wrote:It works best with countries that are broadly equal in standard of living. What you describe would mean loads of us going over to there. Then we would be the problem.


There's 2 million UK nationals in other EU countries.
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Post by temporary21 on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:28 pm

Which countries...

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Post by rodders on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:29 pm

temporary21 wrote:???
That doesn't make any sense as a reply

Well you said migrant workers should only be allowed in if they benefit us. I'm asking who you think you benefit?

If someone works and pays taxes they benefit the country the same as anyone else.
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Post by rodders on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:30 pm

temporary21 wrote:Which countries...

What does it matter?
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Post by Guest on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:35 pm

rodders wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Issues with immigration and a racist attitude are not necessarily the same thing, although there is an obvious overlap. Some will be anti-immigration because of a racist ideology, some (the strong majority) will be anti-immigration because of genuine concerns about impact on wage levels, a crowded NHS, housing, etc. It should also be noted that 'anti-immigration' more often means 'anti-immigration policy' rather than an issue with the immigrants coming into the UK.

That is only true if you believe that the issues around the NHS, wage levels, housing are attributable to immigration and specifically EU migration.

Remember this wasn't a referendum about immigration, although many have made it out to be, it was about EU membership and the leave camp have led people to believe EU membership amounts to handing over billions of pounds in return for being told what to do by foreigners and leaving our borders totally open for the rest of the world to come and sponge of Britains welfare system and health service.

However as has been pointed out several times - EU migration makes up less than half of overall net migration and contributes 1.20 for each pound taken so is a net benefit to the UK economy and therefore public services so the above concerns are simply bogus.

The issues surrounding the NHS, wage levels and housing are believed to be attributable to immigration. There are real issues with a failing NHS, housing shortage, and low wages, and although it can't all be explained as a fault of the EU's open door policy, it's easy to see how many make that connect, especially when encouraged to do so by those in positions of trust.

The referendum was clearly about immigration, as well as issues over EU control and cost of membership. The Brexit campaign was clearly fought on issues of immigration, as well as the other perceived issues. It's true that UKIP manipulated, if not instilled, fears about immigration, however, UKIP were not alone in doing so. We also had both the Government and opposition claiming they will help reduce the level of immigration to the UK, which simply reinforced those fears prior to the referendum.

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Post by Ent on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:40 pm

It is old people who put a strain on the nhs, not immigrants. If you see an immigrant in hospital they are more than likely looking after you.

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Post by temporary21 on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:41 pm

you're being defensive for no reason

An average has a variance attached. If there's an average net benefit that does not mean that EVERY migrant is inputting a net benefit

Now that's entirely fine, but if those that don't tend to meet the average mostly affect one area of society. THAT area of society can suffer

Edit:
On the whole people who are doing well will not move around the eu much to work. However people who are not doing well in one economy, but have freedom of movement to another possibly stronger and more generous economy, then they are more inclined to move there for opportunity. The other way round also applies.
That means you tend to see a net migration move TOWARDS stronger economies in the EU amongst those not soo well off. Now that can put sttsin on the poor, and might explain why they see immigration very differently to you and I

Those countries very similar to eachother economically, tend to have the net movement fairly similar, particularly amongst the poorest. That reflect in the 2 million uk migrants

If the uk migrants were somewhere with a much higher standard they would be seen in the same way, extra competition for an oversupply of jobs


Thirdly. And most importantly. I am a postdoc. I work in very high level research. I feel on the whole I contribute, not that it actually matters

I don't see what you're trying to imply... But my friends and my close colleagues all come from overseas

This isn't the outcome I wanted. It is NOT racist at all however to try and understand things from a different, less fortunate point of view


Last edited by temporary21 on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by temporary21 on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:43 pm

Nobody is saying that all of that is correct. When you try to understand another persons position you can start to see how immigration can be seen as the breaking point to an already strained situation caused by government

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Post by Guest on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 3:57 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
rodders wrote:
I don't think 17.5 million people who voted Brexit are unemployed, ill informed and/or racist.

I think many people have valid reasons as to why they prefer to be outside the EU - for instance maybe some small business owners find the regulation difficult, laborers who've found their wages suppressed due to free movement.  Others are frustrated with the Bureaucracy in Brussels. I respect this completely even if I don't agree that leaving is the answer.

However without the ill informed and xenophobes leave would simply not have won, not even close.

The vast majority of average people in the UK benefit from EU membership so many people have voted to give themselves, their children and grandchildren a worse quality of living - therefore it is not a quantum leap to say such people, including many in Wales are simply ignorant, naive or stupid.

Are all leave voters racist or xenophobes, all 17.5 million? No of course not but certainly what has been exposed is that there are millions of racists and xenophobes in the UK, mainly but not confined to the working class and washing over this reality is a big mistake and has been for a number of years.

We now have openly racist organisations in the mainstream able to promote racist propaganda under the banner of free speech - this more so than anything Gove or Johnson has said has let to the referendum result and the mess the country is now in.

I don't know if it's true that there are more working class racists than middle class racists. I would like to see some facts to back up that assertion.

I think you're taking a bit of a leap in claiming that racist propaganda is the main cause of the referendum result. The causes were varied, as you have acknowledged, and immigration would be one of the main issues, however, both Gove and Boris fought their campaign on perceived issues surrounding immigration, and lack of control.

Issues with immigration and a racist attitude are not necessarily the same thing, although there is an obvious overlap. Some will be anti-immigration because of a racist ideology, some (the strong majority) will be anti-immigration because of genuine concerns about impact on wage levels, a crowded NHS, housing, etc. It should also be noted that 'anti-immigration' more often means 'anti-immigration policy' rather than an issue with the immigrants coming into the UK.

Thinking about racist organisations in the mainstream; the Conservative Party, the Police and the legal profession could all be accused of being institutionally racist. The Labour Party does in fact have a racist faction. The depth of anti-Semitism within its ranks is anyone's guess, but certainly evident at the top. It beggars belief that in their conference on anti-Semitism, last night, Corbyn compares Israel to ISIS, and one of his Momentum clowns comes out with a pathetic anti-Semitic conspiracy, and against a Jewish Labour MP who was sitting in the same room! Corbyn, of course, did nothing to intervene, and was seen happily chatting to the racist immediately after the conference.

He accused her of colluding with the daily telegraph - which she was - all of the anti corbyn mob has been working with the press since he was selected. She took it as anti-Semitic because she's Jewish whereas the guy said

"I saw that the Telegraph handed a copy of a press release to Ruth Smeeth MP so you can see who is working hand in hand."

Also he didn't compare the two, he said (as Jewish people are often the targets for Israels crimes) that neither were responsible for the evil committed by the groups they were getting abused for.  


This is what Corbyn said just before Wadswoth's comment:

"no place for the suggestion Jewish people were part of any “media conspiracy”.

then Wadswoth comes up with:

"I saw the Telegraph handed a copy of a press release to Ruth Smeeth MP, you can see who is working hand-in-hand"

It isn't a media campaign against Corbyn. His own Party members are coming out against him:

"Labour MP Wes Streeting tweeted of Corbyn: “You sat there and watched our colleague Ruth Smeeth abused at a Labour event this morning. Your words are hollow.”

The Labour Party does have an anti-Semitic faction, and Corbyn appears unwilling to do anything about it, unless there is a media backlash. His own comments possibly indicate why he is reluctant to take any action against those anti-Semites.

I see the other anti-Semite, and Leading Momentum activist, 'Jackie Walker', has been readmitted to the Labour Party....

Sorry, Shah, I like a lot of what you have to say, but you're clearly in denial about the incompetent, passed his sell by date, Comrade Corbyn.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 4:28 pm

I'm not going to put a lot of effort into defending any of them, the labour party have been trying to destroy Corbyn and force his resignation for last few days and Wes Streeting MP was one of those who called for him to go not a month ago. Ruth Smeeth was sitting next to a lot of media people and they have been releasing stuff to the media all week. She doesn't storm out till the grinning idiot behind her suggest its anti-semitic rather than calling her out for the press. Theres alot of valid reasons to dislike Corbyn and the people who support him right now but racism against jews isn't one of them. He should resign, he's been next to useless in anything of note and the country needs a strong opposition. But this is a media thing against Corbyn and labour mps are sticking the boot in piling on the pressure for him to go. His worst enemies right now are those labour mp's trying to get rid of him before the chilcott report comes out.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 4:55 pm

Oh the irony - immigration of nurses and doctors is what keeps the NHS running.

I don't know if its down to a failing in training and capacity at our end, or just a shortage of people prepared to train to be medics, but the NHS does tend to recruit a lot from overseas.


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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 5:10 pm

lostinwales wrote:Oh the irony - immigration of nurses and doctors is what keeps the NHS running.

I don't know if its down to a failing in training and capacity at our end, or just a shortage of people prepared to train to be medics, but the NHS does tend to recruit a lot from overseas.


It's because the immigrants follow each other to look for safe places to stay - ideally in places where there is a strong community from your nation so if you fall on hard times you're not lost at sea. It's the reason why so many Asians drive taxis and why so many polish work factories etc etc. Same with the NHS, having a lot of African/middle eastern workers where a lot of people are not averse to thankless and often dirty jobs.

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Post by Ent on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 5:22 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Oh the irony - immigration of nurses and doctors is what keeps the NHS running.

I don't know if its down to a failing in training and capacity at our end, or just a shortage of people prepared to train to be medics, but the NHS does tend to recruit a lot from overseas.


It's because the immigrants follow each other to look for safe places to stay - ideally in places where there is a strong community from your nation so if you fall on hard times you're not lost at sea. It's the reason why so many Asians drive taxis and why so many polish work factories etc etc. Same with the NHS, having a lot of African/middle eastern workers where a lot of people are not averse to thankless and often dirty jobs.

Demand outstrips supply despite attempts to predict requirements.

The nhs also treat its staff like Poopie and they have problems retaining them.

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Post by Guest on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 5:23 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:I'm not going to put a lot of effort into defending any of them, the labour party have been trying to destroy Corbyn and force his resignation for last few days and Wes Streeting MP was one of those who called for him to go not a month ago. Ruth Smeeth was sitting next to a lot of media people and they have been releasing stuff to the media all week. She doesn't storm out till the grinning idiot behind her suggest its anti-semitic rather than calling her out for the press. Theres alot of valid reasons to dislike Corbyn and the people who support him right now but racism against jews isn't one of them. He should resign, he's been next to useless in anything of note and the country needs a strong opposition. But this is a media thing against Corbyn and labour mps are sticking the boot in piling on the pressure for him to go. His worst enemies right now are those labour mp's trying to get rid of him before the chilcott report comes out.

I don't doubt that the media are sticking the boot in. I have little respect for the media, but still question if they are justified and, in Corbyns case, I think they are.

It doesn't matter who Smeeth was sitting beside. It wasn't a very large room and people have to sit somewhere and, as you would expect, Labour MPs and journalists would be sitting closer to the front. What does matter is what was said, and Corbyns reaction to it. What also matters is Corbyn comparing Israel to ISIS. It isn't fashionable to spout anti-Semitic rubbish now, so anti-Semites vent their anti-Semitism through attacking Israel. Sometimes attacking the Israeli policies are right, sometimes it is nothing more than thinly veiled anti-Semitism, such as comparing Israel to ISIS.

Corbyns lack of action against clear racism does open the way for others to accuse him of supporting racism within his own party. Livingstone is just one example of that. Ok, action was taken in the latest incident involving Livingstone, however, I doubt any action would have been taken were it not for a public backlash against previous racists remarks and the fact that the incident was televised. Action should have been taken against Livingstone and his warped take on history, gleaned from a discredited historian, long ago.
I've read so many feeble excuses as to how certain remarks were taken out of context, or that they have changed their attitudes since making racist remarks, but it's all waffle. It's a desperate squirming to wriggle of the hook. Anti-Semitism isn't some new thing to Labour, it's been evident for decades.

I want the Labour Party to fully recover from this period of self-destruction, and provide real leadership in very uncertain times. However, the longer Corbyn clings on to his failing leadership, the more likely a split in the Labour Party will be realised. The lunatics really are running the asylum.

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Post by Hibbz on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 6:05 pm

Silly boyos voted to reduce access for Europeans to the UK and now they can't get out to watch their team. Karma is a b!tch.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 6:17 pm

Munchkin wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:I'm not going to put a lot of effort into defending any of them, the labour party have been trying to destroy Corbyn and force his resignation for last few days and Wes Streeting MP was one of those who called for him to go not a month ago. Ruth Smeeth was sitting next to a lot of media people and they have been releasing stuff to the media all week. She doesn't storm out till the grinning idiot behind her suggest its anti-semitic rather than calling her out for the press. Theres alot of valid reasons to dislike Corbyn and the people who support him right now but racism against jews isn't one of them. He should resign, he's been next to useless in anything of note and the country needs a strong opposition. But this is a media thing against Corbyn and labour mps are sticking the boot in piling on the pressure for him to go. His worst enemies right now are those labour mp's trying to get rid of him before the chilcott report comes out.

I don't doubt that the media are sticking the boot in. I have little respect for the media, but still question if they are justified and, in Corbyns case, I think they are.

It doesn't matter who Smeeth was sitting beside. It wasn't a very large room and people have to sit somewhere and, as you would expect, Labour MPs and journalists would be sitting closer to the front. What does matter is what was said, and Corbyns reaction to it. What also matters is Corbyn comparing Israel to ISIS. It isn't fashionable to spout anti-Semitic rubbish now, so anti-Semites vent their anti-Semitism through attacking Israel. Sometimes attacking the Israeli policies are right, sometimes it is nothing more than thinly veiled anti-Semitism, such as comparing Israel to ISIS.

Corbyns lack of action against clear racism does open the way for others to accuse him of supporting racism within his own party. Livingstone is just one example of that. Ok, action was taken in the latest incident involving Livingstone, however, I doubt any action would have been taken were it not for a public backlash against previous racists remarks and the fact that the incident was televised. Action should have been taken against Livingstone and his warped take on history, gleaned from a discredited historian, long ago.
I've read so many feeble excuses as to how certain remarks were taken out of context, or that they have changed their attitudes since making racist remarks, but it's all waffle. It's a desperate squirming to wriggle of the hook. Anti-Semitism isn't some new thing to Labour, it's been evident for decades.

I want the Labour Party to fully recover from this period of self-destruction, and provide real leadership in very uncertain times. However, the longer Corbyn clings on to his failing leadership, the more likely a split in the Labour Party will be realised. The lunatics really are running the asylum.

Again i'm not going to argue too much, you've already decided and I'm not going to waste too much time defending someone I don't even like. He wasn't comparing Isis and Israel he was comparing Islamophobia to Anti-semitism which is a perfectly valid comparison under the circumstances. He is also asked directly are you comparing Isis and Israel and he says of course not. Just think its a little unfair for Corbyn to take all this flak for things that aren't under his control and give him flak for responding reasonably to all of them - investigating the claims - suspending then having their tribunal.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 6:33 pm

http://news.sky.com/story/1720169/easyjet-opens-talks-over-post-brexit-hq-move

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 6:41 pm

https://audioboom.com/boos/4771769-nigel-farage-on-douglas-carswell-we-find-someone-within-the-party-who-doesn-t-agree-with-what-the-party-stands-for

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Post by Guest on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 8:42 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:I'm not going to put a lot of effort into defending any of them, the labour party have been trying to destroy Corbyn and force his resignation for last few days and Wes Streeting MP was one of those who called for him to go not a month ago. Ruth Smeeth was sitting next to a lot of media people and they have been releasing stuff to the media all week. She doesn't storm out till the grinning idiot behind her suggest its anti-semitic rather than calling her out for the press. Theres alot of valid reasons to dislike Corbyn and the people who support him right now but racism against jews isn't one of them. He should resign, he's been next to useless in anything of note and the country needs a strong opposition. But this is a media thing against Corbyn and labour mps are sticking the boot in piling on the pressure for him to go. His worst enemies right now are those labour mp's trying to get rid of him before the chilcott report comes out.

I don't doubt that the media are sticking the boot in. I have little respect for the media, but still question if they are justified and, in Corbyns case, I think they are.

It doesn't matter who Smeeth was sitting beside. It wasn't a very large room and people have to sit somewhere and, as you would expect, Labour MPs and journalists would be sitting closer to the front. What does matter is what was said, and Corbyns reaction to it. What also matters is Corbyn comparing Israel to ISIS. It isn't fashionable to spout anti-Semitic rubbish now, so anti-Semites vent their anti-Semitism through attacking Israel. Sometimes attacking the Israeli policies are right, sometimes it is nothing more than thinly veiled anti-Semitism, such as comparing Israel to ISIS.

Corbyns lack of action against clear racism does open the way for others to accuse him of supporting racism within his own party. Livingstone is just one example of that. Ok, action was taken in the latest incident involving Livingstone, however, I doubt any action would have been taken were it not for a public backlash against previous racists remarks and the fact that the incident was televised. Action should have been taken against Livingstone and his warped take on history, gleaned from a discredited historian, long ago.
I've read so many feeble excuses as to how certain remarks were taken out of context, or that they have changed their attitudes since making racist remarks, but it's all waffle. It's a desperate squirming to wriggle of the hook. Anti-Semitism isn't some new thing to Labour, it's been evident for decades.

I want the Labour Party to fully recover from this period of self-destruction, and provide real leadership in very uncertain times. However, the longer Corbyn clings on to his failing leadership, the more likely a split in the Labour Party will be realised. The lunatics really are running the asylum.

Again i'm not going to argue too much, you've already decided and I'm not going to waste too much time defending someone I don't even like. He wasn't comparing Isis and Israel he was comparing Islamophobia to Anti-semitism which is a perfectly valid comparison under the circumstances. He is also asked directly are you comparing Isis and Israel and he says of course not. Just think its a little unfair for Corbyn to take all this flak for things that aren't under his control and give him flak for responding reasonably to all of them - investigating the claims - suspending then having their tribunal.  

Yes, he was. Here's what he said:

"Jews were "no more responsible" for Israel's actions than Muslims were for "those various self-styled Islamic states".

Naz Shah advocated the deportation of Israeli Jews to America, likening the Jewish State to Nazi Germany, and comparing Zionism to al-Qaida. Corbyn didn't want to discipline her, but was forced to by those in his own Party. Not the anti-Semites, such as Livingstone who defended her by excusing her comments:

“a real anti-Semite doesn’t just hate the Jews in Israel.”

Corbyn, anti-Israel, but counts Hamas and Hizbollah as friends.

I could post quite a bit on Corbyn in relation to Israel, but have said enough. I'm sure you will agree Hug



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Post by doctor_grey on Fri 01 Jul 2016, 10:41 pm

Munchkin wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:I'm not going to put a lot of effort into defending any of them, the labour party have been trying to destroy Corbyn and force his resignation for last few days and Wes Streeting MP was one of those who called for him to go not a month ago. Ruth Smeeth was sitting next to a lot of media people and they have been releasing stuff to the media all week. She doesn't storm out till the grinning idiot behind her suggest its anti-semitic rather than calling her out for the press. Theres alot of valid reasons to dislike Corbyn and the people who support him right now but racism against jews isn't one of them. He should resign, he's been next to useless in anything of note and the country needs a strong opposition. But this is a media thing against Corbyn and labour mps are sticking the boot in piling on the pressure for him to go. His worst enemies right now are those labour mp's trying to get rid of him before the chilcott report comes out.

I don't doubt that the media are sticking the boot in. I have little respect for the media, but still question if they are justified and, in Corbyns case, I think they are.

It doesn't matter who Smeeth was sitting beside. It wasn't a very large room and people have to sit somewhere and, as you would expect, Labour MPs and journalists would be sitting closer to the front. What does matter is what was said, and Corbyns reaction to it. What also matters is Corbyn comparing Israel to ISIS. It isn't fashionable to spout anti-Semitic rubbish now, so anti-Semites vent their anti-Semitism through attacking Israel. Sometimes attacking the Israeli policies are right, sometimes it is nothing more than thinly veiled anti-Semitism, such as comparing Israel to ISIS.

Corbyns lack of action against clear racism does open the way for others to accuse him of supporting racism within his own party. Livingstone is just one example of that. Ok, action was taken in the latest incident involving Livingstone, however, I doubt any action would have been taken were it not for a public backlash against previous racists remarks and the fact that the incident was televised. Action should have been taken against Livingstone and his warped take on history, gleaned from a discredited historian, long ago.
I've read so many feeble excuses as to how certain remarks were taken out of context, or that they have changed their attitudes since making racist remarks, but it's all waffle. It's a desperate squirming to wriggle of the hook. Anti-Semitism isn't some new thing to Labour, it's been evident for decades.

I want the Labour Party to fully recover from this period of self-destruction, and provide real leadership in very uncertain times. However, the longer Corbyn clings on to his failing leadership, the more likely a split in the Labour Party will be realised. The lunatics really are running the asylum.
Munch,
I have read and re-read your comments here and I cannot agree more. If Corbyn is indeed the leader, he is also responsible to ensure his party makes the appropriate statements backed by the appropriate actions. Corbyn has done neither. The conclusion is simple and obvious. It's a national embarassment.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Sat 02 Jul 2016, 12:01 am

Munchkin wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:I'm not going to put a lot of effort into defending any of them, the labour party have been trying to destroy Corbyn and force his resignation for last few days and Wes Streeting MP was one of those who called for him to go not a month ago. Ruth Smeeth was sitting next to a lot of media people and they have been releasing stuff to the media all week. She doesn't storm out till the grinning idiot behind her suggest its anti-semitic rather than calling her out for the press. Theres alot of valid reasons to dislike Corbyn and the people who support him right now but racism against jews isn't one of them. He should resign, he's been next to useless in anything of note and the country needs a strong opposition. But this is a media thing against Corbyn and labour mps are sticking the boot in piling on the pressure for him to go. His worst enemies right now are those labour mp's trying to get rid of him before the chilcott report comes out.

I don't doubt that the media are sticking the boot in. I have little respect for the media, but still question if they are justified and, in Corbyns case, I think they are.

It doesn't matter who Smeeth was sitting beside. It wasn't a very large room and people have to sit somewhere and, as you would expect, Labour MPs and journalists would be sitting closer to the front. What does matter is what was said, and Corbyns reaction to it. What also matters is Corbyn comparing Israel to ISIS. It isn't fashionable to spout anti-Semitic rubbish now, so anti-Semites vent their anti-Semitism through attacking Israel. Sometimes attacking the Israeli policies are right, sometimes it is nothing more than thinly veiled anti-Semitism, such as comparing Israel to ISIS.

Corbyns lack of action against clear racism does open the way for others to accuse him of supporting racism within his own party. Livingstone is just one example of that. Ok, action was taken in the latest incident involving Livingstone, however, I doubt any action would have been taken were it not for a public backlash against previous racists remarks and the fact that the incident was televised. Action should have been taken against Livingstone and his warped take on history, gleaned from a discredited historian, long ago.
I've read so many feeble excuses as to how certain remarks were taken out of context, or that they have changed their attitudes since making racist remarks, but it's all waffle. It's a desperate squirming to wriggle of the hook. Anti-Semitism isn't some new thing to Labour, it's been evident for decades.

I want the Labour Party to fully recover from this period of self-destruction, and provide real leadership in very uncertain times. However, the longer Corbyn clings on to his failing leadership, the more likely a split in the Labour Party will be realised. The lunatics really are running the asylum.

Again i'm not going to argue too much, you've already decided and I'm not going to waste too much time defending someone I don't even like. He wasn't comparing Isis and Israel he was comparing Islamophobia to Anti-semitism which is a perfectly valid comparison under the circumstances. He is also asked directly are you comparing Isis and Israel and he says of course not. Just think its a little unfair for Corbyn to take all this flak for things that aren't under his control and give him flak for responding reasonably to all of them - investigating the claims - suspending then having their tribunal.  

Yes, he was. Here's what he said:

"Jews were "no more responsible" for Israel's actions than Muslims were for "those various self-styled Islamic states".

Naz Shah advocated the deportation of Israeli Jews to America, likening the Jewish State to Nazi Germany, and comparing Zionism to al-Qaida. Corbyn didn't want to discipline her, but was forced to by those in his own Party. Not the anti-Semites, such as Livingstone who defended her by excusing her comments:

“a real anti-Semite doesn’t just hate the Jews in Israel.”

Corbyn, anti-Israel, but counts Hamas and Hizbollah as friends.

I could post quite a bit on Corbyn in relation to Israel, but have said enough. I'm sure you will agree  Hug



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Post by Guest on Sat 02 Jul 2016, 12:14 am

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Post by Pr4wn on Sat 02 Jul 2016, 1:33 am

"Jews were "no more responsible" for Israel's actions than Muslims were for "those various self-styled Islamic states".

Sorry but what exactly is wrong with this?

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