England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

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England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 13 Jul 2016, 1:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

It has been confirmed that Jake Ball will make his debut tomorrow so England line up as

Cook
Hales
Root
Vince
Ballance
Bairstow
Ali
Woakes
Broad
Ball
Finn
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 12:41 pm

Cook dropped at first slip - regulation chance off Amir - horrific drop that
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by KP_fan on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 12:46 pm

Pak going flat out for and giving away too many 4 balls.
good approach..only if they get wickets else too many cheap runs given away.
though they cam close to getting cook
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 1:48 pm

Amir has caught the outside edge of Cook's bat 3/4 times now - living a charmed life so far
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 1:51 pm

Pakistan have leaked runs but Woakes bowled very inconsistent line, generally short, and got great results.

Amir couldve/shouldve had wickets but it appears the Pakistani fielders have laid bets on Cook getting 50 are too busy playing Pokemon Go to pay attention

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 2:13 pm

England's hectic scoring rate has dropped right back since lunch, but they won't mind as long as these two are building a solid foundation to the innings.

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 2:42 pm

Pakistan going with the bold approach of dropping Alastair Cook every time

Let's see how it pays off
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by alfie on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 2:45 pm

Amir probably feels a bit unlucky...

I think it is the cricketing gods sending a message. He's still on probation.

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by VTR on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 2:51 pm

Cook hasn't been in great form, these drops are helping him to spend more time in the middle

Nice to see England not 50-3 for once. Maybe Root to 3 is a necessary move as he is often the one bailing out from that position

England not ahead in the game yet though. Pakistan will fancy a crack at Vince and Ballance

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 2:56 pm

Cook has now scored more runs as a test opener than any other player.

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by alfie on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 2:59 pm

Joe Root throws it away ! Daft rush of blood ...why ? England right on top and now that shot has let Pakistan back into the contest ...with the fragile - so far - Vince up next.


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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by alfie on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 3:09 pm

Suppose you could say Root didn't really have any problem with his move to three.
But he is developing a habit of getting out under no pressure well before England would like. In terms of talent he is with - or above - the likes of Williamson , Smith etc...but if he keeps sawing his innings off short he won't have the figures to prove it.
I love his positive approach ; but perhaps it needs to be tempered by a little more care in shot selection ? Is he getting too confident for his own good ?

Nice shot to get Vince off the mark...

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by VTR on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 3:12 pm

That is a gift from Root. He does seem to get himself out a lot lately, there is a difference between being positive and reckless. A slog sweep to the spinner on the second day of a Test - not really a percentage shot is it?

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by alfie on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 3:26 pm

I fear Vince is running out of chances...

Wasted a good start , again. And wasted a review on his way out.

Pity. Played a couple of nice shots. But nice bright little 16s don't win Test Matches. I doubt he will last the series.

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 3:26 pm

Vince fails again
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 3:26 pm

Vince with some promise but few runs. Thought that was out on first viewing and so it proves on review. Another wicket soon and England are really going to be up against it.

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by alfie on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 3:30 pm

England in danger of squandering a good start , at 140/3.

Pakistan only have four bowlers , and you feel another long partnership might take the sting out of their attack. But the two quick wickets have rather revived them.

Ballance could do himself and his team a lot of good here if he can drop anchor...

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by VTR on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 3:34 pm

Vince has nowhere near looked like a Test batsman so far. I accept you have to give players a bit of time, but he had an easy series vs SL to settle in and failed, so its hard to see him improving in the much tougher series. I expect he will given the chop when Stokes returns, and I think Buttler will be back keeping with JB as a specialist bat before the series is out

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by GSC on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 3:35 pm

Just not sure Vince is test standard. Looks handy buts it's a big step up.
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by alfie on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 3:36 pm

Ballance follows and our worst fears about the amended batting order are coming true.

Up to Bairstow, Ali , Woakes etc to rescue things again...

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by VTR on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 3:37 pm

Full on collapse now - can't blame Root for others dismissal but he really opened the door with that needless shot. Will be lucky to get a lead as Pakistan won't make it easy for the lower order like SL did

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 3:38 pm

Day two of the first test of the series and the leg spinner is destroying England - could be a long long summer...
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 3:47 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Day two of the first test of the series and the leg spinner is destroying England - could be a long long summer...

Yasir's unquestionably bowled well - steady with just enough variation to keep the batsmen thinking - but no so well as to have figures of 3/22 with those 3 being Test batsmen numbers 3, 4 and 5. Poor work from those England players.

We should have enough batsmen left to get near parity or better although sometimes packing the side with batters results in no one taking responsibility. At least, Cook's still there although he must have already used up a lot of his luck for this series.

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by VTR on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 3:48 pm

We have now got to somehow get close to the Pakistan score and hope for a better bowling performance to set a gettable total. Don't see us chasing much if we can't even handle Yasir on day 2 of a flat pitch

Long summer ahead as Olly says....

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by alfie on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 3:58 pm

VTR wrote:Full on collapse now - can't blame Root for others dismissal but he really opened the door with that needless shot. Will be lucky to get a lead as Pakistan won't make it easy for the lower order like SL did

I do blame Root . He was the man who was set ; he was in a position to really bat Pakistan into submission and let the less accomplished bats come in with the pressure off - and he threw it away. Blame Bayliss too , a bit , for insisting on returning Root to three. When you only have two or three reliable batsmen fixed in place , don't be messing them around while trying to fill the other spots in the order.
Think England have been guilty of overconfidence in a still fragile batting lineup. May well still get out of it due to the batting depth ; but they need to fix that shaky middle order sooner rather than later. And I am not confident either of the current 4/5 are the men to do the job.

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 4:27 pm

alfie wrote:
VTR wrote:Full on collapse now - can't blame Root for others dismissal but he really opened the door with that needless shot. Will be lucky to get a lead as Pakistan won't make it easy for the lower order like SL did

I do blame Root .  He was the man who was set ; he was in a position to really bat Pakistan into submission and let the less accomplished bats come in with the pressure off - and he threw it away.  Blame Bayliss too , a bit , for insisting on returning Root to three. When you only have two or three reliable batsmen fixed in place , don't be messing them around while trying to fill the other spots in the order.
Think England have been guilty of overconfidence in a still fragile batting lineup. May well still get out of it due to the batting depth ; but they need to fix that shaky middle order sooner rather than later. And I am not confident either of the current 4/5 are the men to do the job.

Not entirely sure that Joe Root can be blamed for James Vince/Gary Ballance's failings - if they're going to be test players they can't rely on coming in at 250-2 every time....
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 4:31 pm

Cook's luck finally runs out as Amir gets him (for about the fourth time this innings)

England in proper trouble now
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 4:35 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Cook's luck finally runs out as Amir gets him (for about the fourth time this innings)

England in proper trouble now

Even with Sir Christopher still to come? Wink

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by alfie on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 4:44 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:
VTR wrote:Full on collapse now - can't blame Root for others dismissal but he really opened the door with that needless shot. Will be lucky to get a lead as Pakistan won't make it easy for the lower order like SL did

I do blame Root .  He was the man who was set ; he was in a position to really bat Pakistan into submission and let the less accomplished bats come in with the pressure off - and he threw it away.  Blame Bayliss too , a bit , for insisting on returning Root to three. When you only have two or three reliable batsmen fixed in place , don't be messing them around while trying to fill the other spots in the order.
Think England have been guilty of overconfidence in a still fragile batting lineup. May well still get out of it due to the batting depth ; but they need to fix that shaky middle order sooner rather than later. And I am not confident either of the current 4/5 are the men to do the job.

Not entirely sure that Joe Root can be blamed for James Vince/Gary Ballance's failings - if they're going to be test players they can't rely on coming in at 250-2 every time....

Well , yes ...I don't mean to absolve those two for their failings (I wouldn't have picked Ballance and remain very doubtful about Vince) ... But I put the primary blame for the unsatisfactory situation on Root's rush of blood . The number three , once "in" , should be looking to bat big. And surely even more so when you know the two chaps up next are hardly established .

I will forgive him , of course. He is a terrific player , and one I love to watch. But if I was his captain I'd have had a word or two when he came out...

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by VTR on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 4:53 pm

Another down - we're going to lose this one I am almost certain. Don't think I'll be spending much time following it over the weekend, half the bowlers and batsmen haven't turned up so I certainly cba

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by alfie on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 4:55 pm

Bairstow out to Yasir and now I am getting a bit concerned...

Both for this match and for the tour of India. Need to find some batsmen who can play spin - the loss of Taylor will really be felt.

Nice start for Woakes

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 4:58 pm

At least borthwick would know what leg spin is

This is just poor, real wasted position.

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 5:00 pm

alfie wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:
VTR wrote:Full on collapse now - can't blame Root for others dismissal but he really opened the door with that needless shot. Will be lucky to get a lead as Pakistan won't make it easy for the lower order like SL did

I do blame Root .  He was the man who was set ; he was in a position to really bat Pakistan into submission and let the less accomplished bats come in with the pressure off - and he threw it away.  Blame Bayliss too , a bit , for insisting on returning Root to three. When you only have two or three reliable batsmen fixed in place , don't be messing them around while trying to fill the other spots in the order.
Think England have been guilty of overconfidence in a still fragile batting lineup. May well still get out of it due to the batting depth ; but they need to fix that shaky middle order sooner rather than later. And I am not confident either of the current 4/5 are the men to do the job.

Not entirely sure that Joe Root can be blamed for James Vince/Gary Ballance's failings - if they're going to be test players they can't rely on coming in at 250-2 every time....

Well , yes ...I don't mean to absolve those two for their failings (I wouldn't have picked Ballance and remain very doubtful about Vince) ... But I put the primary blame for the unsatisfactory situation on Root's rush of blood .  The number three , once "in" , should be looking to bat big.  And surely even more so when you know the two chaps up next are hardly established .

I will forgive him , of course. He is a terrific player , and one I love to watch. But if I was his captain I'd have had a word or two when he came out...

Or Blame the selectors responsible for Vince , Ballance and Root at 3..and Finn....and Ali (although he may save us yet!)

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by alfie on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 5:04 pm

Actually rather surprised to see Bairstow get out like that. He had looked pretty good , again ; was scoring quite freely : and then a massive misjudgment costs him - that ball was way too close to cut.

Not ready to concede the game yet though ! Only 130 down ; and if these two and the tail can get a bit closer England are well capable of hitting back when Pakistan bat again.
Certainly rather be in their shoes right now , it is true.

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 5:13 pm

That Bairstow shot was rough - no idea why he's trying to cut that
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by alfie on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 5:13 pm

Gooseberry wrote:At least borthwick would know what leg spin is

This is just poor, real wasted position.

Of course we cannot be sure Borthwick would have succeeded at three...but I thought , and still do , that selecting him there , allowing Root to stay where he was happy at four and keeping Vince a little further down the order , would have made more sense.
Can't really slate them for keeping Finn in the side , even though he's been in questionable form. Two first game bowlers at once would have been a bit much.

Truth is this innings is listing partly because a couple of players are lucky to be in the team , and partly because two of the three bats with the class and form to make runs played very poor shots.

We knew Pakistan could bowl...though I see they still can't field for toffee Smile

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 5:16 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Cook's luck finally runs out as Amir gets him (for about the fourth time this innings)

England in proper trouble now

Even with Sir Christopher still to come? Wink

He's got this lads
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by alfie on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 5:17 pm

On the bright side , Olly ; your man Woakes is looking imperious Smile

On the board already with the six wickets : what price a timely 100 ?

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by KP_fan on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 8:31 pm

End of D2...it appears very likely....Pak will take some lead
at best 60...at least about 30 runs......and then they have to not collapse for 150...to make a match out of it...not necessarily will they win...but with a lead of 225...they will hold a chance.
( had they taken their easy catches.....they could have been looking at a lead of 100ish.....however there are no iffs and buts )

And with resolve if they can work the equation to a 300+ chase in 4th inning...they would almost shut Eng out.

Yasir may appear to be the key.....and he is getting to ball to turn so much....so many revs in the air and drift... and such zipp off the pitch.....and the variations including googly.....that he will be even harder in the 2nd inning.

But Yasir is not all...I have a feeling.....Aamir and/or Wahab are just around the corner....to hit a brilliant 6 over spell of reverse and 90mph+ and pluck out 4 wickets for nothing....at least the two of them, I Know are game changers.....like Yasir was today.
Rahat...I've gotta watch more...such overflowing Pak are with bowling talent that you've gotta believe ..that anything short of mercurial doesn't make the cut in their squad, lest the playing 11.

Eng will sooner than later realize these days ability to score runs and fast against quality bowling..... is what matters more than classical technique and Butler brings far more value as a batsman
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by alfie on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 9:36 am

Most of the above KP_fan post makes sense to me ...but I'm a bit baffled by the last sentence ...

Not sure classical technique is a characteristic much noted amongst all the recent batting selections ; quite a few technical deficiencies in players like Ballance , for example.  And while I enjoy watching Buttler batting in limited over games , I am not sure he has yet demonstrated the ability to transfer his skills into the five day game.  He may yet get another chance ; but I think he actually brings "more of the same" to an England lineup which tends to err on the side of over aggression rather than the converse.

Think the main issue for England at present is the absence of a steady , reliable player in the middle order ( a Gomes type , perhaps ? As guildford would appreciate) among the Root/Bairstow/Stokes/Ali attackers ...Sadly , Taylor is no longer an option. At the moment , with Root seemingly committed to becoming the new KP rather than the next Trott , Cook is the only player in the top seven who seems to want to bat long.

Think this match is still wide open.  If England can get a bit closer on first innings , Pakistan will need to bat well second time around to maintain their advantage ; Lord's doesn't usually deteriorate much as it wears.

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 9:55 am

Think they have been slightly blindsided (obviously) by the Taylor retirement - when you lose a guy who was nailed into that #4/#5 middle order spot, to suddenly have to find someone else at the next moment can be tough - maybe such a player doesn't currently exist at the moment...
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by James100 on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 9:58 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Think they have been slightly blindsided (obviously) by the Taylor retirement - when you lose a guy who was nailed into that #4/#5 middle order spot, to suddenly have to find someone else at the next moment can be tough - maybe such a player doesn't currently exist at the moment...

Especially given his strength against spin, something England struggled against (hence Bell hanging around so long). They jettisoned Bell to move forward with Taylor, but now without the both of them—and Root at 3—there's no-one in the middle order who seems able to cope with quality spin bowling.

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by alfie on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 10:02 am

Good question , Olly

Does such a player exist ? I'm sure posters will have theories : some might argue for a return for Bell (at five: perhaps not so crazy ?) . Others will have players who have performed for their counties who they feel could make the step up - which of course was the plan for Vince , which is looking a bit shaky at present. Some just want Bairstow pushed up the order to allow a pure keeper at seven : a move which arguably wouldn't do much for the steadying influence theory.

Would be interesting to hear from others ...

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by JDizzle on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 10:07 am

Do think we need to pump the brakes on Taylor a bit. You won't find a bigger fan of him than me, but he averaged 26 in Tests. I'd hope that would have gone up, but he wasn't the glue that held the middle order together. The problems existed from before his recall.

I'd love it to be Hildreth. But think it is too late.

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by alfie on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 10:08 am

James100 wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Think they have been slightly blindsided (obviously) by the Taylor retirement - when you lose a guy who was nailed into that #4/#5 middle order spot, to suddenly have to find someone else at the next moment can be tough - maybe such a player doesn't currently exist at the moment...

Especially given his strength against spin, something England struggled against (hence Bell hanging around so long). They jettisoned Bell to move forward with Taylor, but now without the both of them—and Root at 3—there's no-one in the middle order who seems able to cope with quality spin bowling.

James I'm not sure Bell was the poster boy for combatting quality spin bowling ; his record in UAE was rather underwhelming ! He certainly had a lot of success at five ; but with a tour of spin friendly India coming up I suspect England will be hoping to instal someone who really does have the skills to handle the spinning ball in alien conditions.
If they can find one...

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 10:17 am

JDizzle wrote:Do think we need to pump the brakes on Taylor a bit. You won't find a bigger fan of him than me, but he averaged 26 in Tests. I'd hope that would have gone up, but he wasn't the glue that held the middle order together. The problems existed from before his recall.

I'd love it to be Hildreth. But think it is too late.

Think the point I'm trying to make is that England very much saw him becoming the glue, and wouldn't have really had a backup plan for him not being able to play this summer
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by JDizzle on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 10:34 am

Probably - but I also don't think it is nailed on Taylor would have become a Test success either. So that may still have existed. I don't know who the answer is either!

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 10:40 am

I expect if Vince doesn't make a contribution in the second dig he will miss out for Stokes's return - unless they fancy Borthwick and replace Finn with Stokes (Ball for Anderson the obvious change that will happen imo)
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by guildfordbat on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 10:49 am

Hi Alfie and all - as you would expect, I much appreciated the reference to Gomes. That very valuable player (notice I emphasise value and do not claim greatness) celebrated his birthday on Wednesday. I hope he had a good birthday then as I did. Smile

It's difficult to say who might perform a similar role for a current England team. J Dizzle has just beaten me to raising Hildreth's name - I don't know why but he seems to have consistently been overlooked by the national selectors. Probably for so long now that his ship has sailed. That last comment almost certainly applies to the English batsman who has played the best innings I've seen this season - Trott, an excellent century at Guildford a couple of weeks ago to dominate the match.

Other potential suspects for a batting place, if not necessarily the glue to hold the innings together, would probably include Borthwick and Stoneman of Durham (the latter certainly a glue type although an opener), Bell-Drummond and Northeast of Kent (both scoring runs albeit in Division Two) and Chopra (his face no longer seeming to fit at Warks but still regularly in the runs although lacking that big score). Those names said, I wouldn't have put any of them ahead of Vince (or even Compton) a month or so ago. Difficult.

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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by dyrewolfe on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 11:02 am

God how England could do with a good innings from Broad (or at least 40-50).

If Woakes can stick around as well we should at least reach parity.
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

Post by dyrewolfe on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 11:25 am

Oh dear - England to have an unhealthy first innings deficit.

Broad has his stumps re-arranged by a Wahab yorker. England 261-8.
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Re: England vs Pakistan, 1st Test, Lords (14th-18th July)

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