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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 19 Jul 2016, 4:36 pm

So, a failed military 'coup' that's now resulted in the dismissal of ~3,000 judges and ~15,000 staff in education.

The cynic in me thinks this is an excuse by Erdogan to have a purge/crackdown of those who'd disagree with him (the judiciary) or enable youngsters to think for themselves and maybe see he's not a modern Ataturk (the education staff). Certainly, these recent dismissals don't really seem to chime with the idea of this being a coup.

What with his controversial palace, suppression of the media and sense of humour failure, proposed re-introduction of the death penalty etc and his apparent Islamist ideals in a country famed for its secular founding, what is Erdogan doing? Whatever it is, I don't think it can be any good in the long run.
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Post by ShahenshahG on Tue 19 Jul 2016, 5:17 pm

He's kicking arse in the way that appeals to Turkey as a whole, its kind of a good thing if you consider the stability of a government but only to that point because he is a lunatic who isn't doing it for the country but to consolidate his power. The few rebels that DID fire on civilians brought some serious national wrath upon all of them. So he's making hay while the sun is shining.

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Post by Guest on Tue 19 Jul 2016, 5:19 pm

Ataturk was responsible for the Armenian Genocide. A vile human, even though he can be credited with the secularism of Turkey.

Do you think the attempted coup was a red flag? I don't know if it was, but Erdogan is making the most of the opportunity it presents in strengthening his hold on power. I tend to view him as a threat to democracy in Turkey. Another Putin.

I guess the big fear for the West is that Turkey becomes an Islamic State ruled by a Dictator.

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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 9:50 am

It all looks a bit "long knives" to me.

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Post by Guest on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 10:13 am

Pr4wn wrote:It all looks a bit "long knives" to me.
This.  It is the next stage by Erdogan to cement his rule by popularist Islamic and nationalistic support and take advantage of the US and European dependency on Turkey in the so called war on terror and the control of "migrants" into Europe.  Erdogan could become the next world caliphate of the Muslim World of > 2.1 billion.  But I think for him it is all about power and opportunism.

Wasn't there someone on here that was from Istanbul?

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 11:37 am

I was looking through the comments in a couple of articles about the happenings in Turkey on a newspaper website. In one it was all a US led conspiracy to overthrow Erdogan. In another it was all how he staged it in order to have an excuse to root out any potential opponents to his regime.

It seems to be one of those 'it would be funny if it wasn't so sad' things.


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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 11:54 am

It's what needed to be done even if he wasn't a lunatic. The politicising of the civil service police schools and other public bodies is a nightmare wherever you are. Unfortunately he is a lunatic and rather than make apolitical appointments he's going to put in his own cronies.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 2:37 pm

Munchkin wrote:Ataturk was responsible for the Armenian Genocide. A vile human, even though he can be credited with the secularism of Turkey....
Not sure that's correct as, in 1915, he was in Gallipoli I think, fending off the landings there. Hard to be responsible for the Armenian killings when you're only in charge of a few companies etc on the Gallipoli front.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 2:40 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:It's what needed to be done even if he wasn't a lunatic. The politicising of the civil service police schools and other public bodies is a nightmare wherever you are. Unfortunately he is a lunatic and rather than make apolitical appointments he's going to put in his own cronies.
Those he's dismissed are only 'political' because he has said so. I'm sure there were those who might have had political leanings, but the idea that they're all friends and allies of this Gulen is ridiculous.
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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 2:52 pm

I suspect they're his voters or have shown some support towards Gulen somehow. This is a big feck in list obviously prepared in advance so they could slowly weed em out. This coup has allowed him to purge gulens supporters. The only reason it's ridiculous is that he's kicking em out en masse rather than bit by bit. Of course there will be hundreds if not thousands of innocent's caught up in it but prior to his exile Gulen was thought to have infiltrated deep into the civil service and was undermining Erdogan clique from the get go. Like I said right thing to do if he wasn't going to replace then with his own. But since he is its a dangerous step towards totalitarianism.

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Post by Bull on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 4:02 pm

Erdogan is a dictator.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 4:32 pm

Well done mate. You have inspired me and I now believe Teresa May might be a woman.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 4:37 pm

Looks like it's not just a politically motivated purge, he appears to be arresting members of his own inner circle too. Apparently he is trying to head off a second coup attempt and the previous coup was deemed a failure as soon as someone fired on civilians. The rest of the conspirators didn't go through with it because they knew that was the endgame for them.

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Post by Guest on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 5:01 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Ataturk was responsible for the Armenian Genocide. A vile human, even though he can be credited with the secularism of Turkey....
Not sure that's correct as, in 1915, he was in Gallipoli I think, fending off the landings there. Hard to be responsible for the Armenian killings when you're only in charge of a few companies etc on the Gallipoli front.

Oh, he wasn't alone in that responsibility. Talaat and Enver were the forerunners while Ataturk finished the job:

Kemal first directed his forces against the French in Cilicia with fatal consequences for the Armenians. With Allied encouragement and promises of protection, most surviving Armenians had repatriated to their hometowns in Cilicia in 1919. The attack by Kemalist units against the city of Marash in January 1920, which was accompanied by large-scale slaughtering of the Armenians, spelled the beginning of the end for the remnant Armenian population. The Armenians of Hajen (Hadjin) put up a last desperate fight for seven months only to be reduced by October 1920 to less than five hundred survivors who fled from a city completely torched by the besieging Turks. When the French formally agreed to evacuate Cilicia in October 1921, the debacle signified a second deportation for the Armenians of the region. In the meantime, the Turkish Nationalist forces had gone to war against the Republic of Armenia. With secret instructions from the Ankara government to proceed with the physical elimination of Armenia, General Kiazim Karabekir seized half the territories of Armenia in November 1920 as Red Army units Sovietized the remaining areas. Once again the Armenian population was driven out at the point of the sword with heavy casualties as the city of Kars and its surrounding region were annexed by Turkey.

The final chapter of the Armenians in Anatolia was written in Smyrna (Izmir) as Kemalist forces routed the Greek army and entered the city in September 1922. Soon after, a fire begun in the Armenian neighborhood consumed the entire Christian sector of the city and drove the civilian population to the shore whence they sailed into exile bereft of all belongings. With this exodus from the mainland, Mustafa Kemal completed what Talaat and Enver had started in 1915, the eradication of the Armenian population of Anatolia and the termination of Armenian political aspirations in the Caucasus. With the expulsion of the Greeks, the Turkification and Islamification of Asia Minor was nearly complete.  Link - Ataturk

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 5:50 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:Well done mate. You have inspired me and I now believe Teresa May might be a woman.

I'm also of the opinion that Theresa May is merely Mother Theresa reincarnated.

No coincidence that Mother T died in 1997...the exact same year that Childless T became an MP.

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Post by Guest on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 6:54 pm

They say that T.M has the spirit of M.T. the one of M. M. M. Out Out Out fame. Have been pleasantly surprised by the leadership qualities of T.M. especially when everything seemed to be falling apart with the resignation of that wimp D.Cameron.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 7:41 pm

Forgive me, I haven't had the time to read through this thread in detail - only a scan.

So am I right in thinking Theresa May has just carried out a successful coup in Turkey, ending dictator Erdoyan's rule, that he has held since 1915 when he beat Ataturk in the Eurovision semi-final held in Gallipoli?


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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 20 Jul 2016, 8:06 pm

SecretFly wrote:Forgive me, I haven't had the time to read through this thread in detail - only a scan.

So am I right in thinking Theresa May has just carried out a successful coup in Turkey, ending dictator Erdoyan's rule, that he has held since 1915 when he beat Ataturk in the Eurovision semi-final held in Gallipoli?


You forgot the part where Cameron put Gulens head in his lap and stroked it fondly muttering "atta turk, atta turk"

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Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 21 Jul 2016, 11:40 am

ShahenshahG wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Forgive me, I haven't had the time to read through this thread in detail - only a scan.

So am I right in thinking Theresa May has just carried out a successful coup in Turkey, ending dictator Erdoyan's rule, that he has held since 1915 when he beat Ataturk in the Eurovision semi-final held in Gallipoli?


You forgot the part where Cameron put Gulens head in his lap and stroked it fondly muttering "atta turk, atta turk"


You really need to stop eating cheese just before you go to bed. Wink


Think this does very closely resemble the sort of purges that occurred in Germany and Russia 70-odd years ago. Not as bloody, by any means, but with the same goal in mind.

Internal security threats, real or imagined, are a dictator's favourite way of consolidating power. Personally I don't like the way the country is headed and would much rather see a secular government in place. That said, I don't like coups, military or otherwise, as they tend to end up being a like-for-like replacement.


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Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 21 Jul 2016, 11:44 am

Duty281 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Well done mate. You have inspired me and I now believe Teresa May might be a woman.

I'm also of the opinion that Theresa May is merely Mother Theresa reincarnated.

No coincidence that Mother T died in 1997...the exact same year that Childless T became an MP.

laughing

Turkey - what is going on? Conspiracy-cat-is-catching-on_o_758509

On a more serious note, I highly doubt Mother Theresa would advocate the renewal of Trident. Wink
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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 22 Jul 2016, 10:56 am

Munchkin wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Ataturk was responsible for the Armenian Genocide. A vile human, even though he can be credited with the secularism of Turkey....
Not sure that's correct as, in 1915, he was in Gallipoli I think, fending off the landings there. Hard to be responsible for the Armenian killings when you're only in charge of a few companies etc on the Gallipoli front.

Oh, he wasn't alone in that responsibility. Talaat and Enver were the forerunners while Ataturk finished the job:

Kemal first directed his forces against the French in Cilicia with fatal consequences for the Armenians. With Allied encouragement and promises of protection, most surviving Armenians had repatriated to their hometowns in Cilicia in 1919. The attack by Kemalist units against the city of Marash in January 1920, which was accompanied by large-scale slaughtering of the Armenians, spelled the beginning of the end for the remnant Armenian population. The Armenians of Hajen (Hadjin) put up a last desperate fight for seven months only to be reduced by October 1920 to less than five hundred survivors who fled from a city completely torched by the besieging Turks. When the French formally agreed to evacuate Cilicia in October 1921, the debacle signified a second deportation for the Armenians of the region. In the meantime, the Turkish Nationalist forces had gone to war against the Republic of Armenia. With secret instructions from the Ankara government to proceed with the physical elimination of Armenia, General Kiazim Karabekir seized half the territories of Armenia in November 1920 as Red Army units Sovietized the remaining areas. Once again the Armenian population was driven out at the point of the sword with heavy casualties as the city of Kars and its surrounding region were annexed by Turkey.

The final chapter of the Armenians in Anatolia was written in Smyrna (Izmir) as Kemalist forces routed the Greek army and entered the city in September 1922. Soon after, a fire begun in the Armenian neighborhood consumed the entire Christian sector of the city and drove the civilian population to the shore whence they sailed into exile bereft of all belongings. With this exodus from the mainland, Mustafa Kemal completed what Talaat and Enver had started in 1915, the eradication of the Armenian population of Anatolia and the termination of Armenian political aspirations in the Caucasus. With the expulsion of the Greeks, the Turkification and Islamification of Asia Minor was nearly complete.  Link - Ataturk
Ta for that. Yep, somewhat grim I'll grant you. I was kindof alluding to Ataturk in a founding of secular modern Turkey mode; not any potential genocidal tendencies. Erdogan is turning into (was always?) a grubby little dictator and like all dictators, he can't cope with any personal slights or fun poked at his expense; which probably makes him quite dangerous.
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Post by SecretFly on Fri 22 Jul 2016, 11:04 am

The true test for Erdogan will come if some of those same people (citizens) that came out onto the street to stop the tanks, to stop the coup, to support democracy etc etc - are now some of the same people who will be arrested or forced to resign etc - or if they see family members suffer in similar ways having felt they were acting to protect the Nation.

When those tensions rise (as I think they inevitably must given the number of arrests and disruptions taking place already) then we'll see what the mood changes to.

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Post by Guest on Fri 22 Jul 2016, 2:18 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Ataturk was responsible for the Armenian Genocide. A vile human, even though he can be credited with the secularism of Turkey....
Not sure that's correct as, in 1915, he was in Gallipoli I think, fending off the landings there. Hard to be responsible for the Armenian killings when you're only in charge of a few companies etc on the Gallipoli front.

Oh, he wasn't alone in that responsibility. Talaat and Enver were the forerunners while Ataturk finished the job:

Kemal first directed his forces against the French in Cilicia with fatal consequences for the Armenians. With Allied encouragement and promises of protection, most surviving Armenians had repatriated to their hometowns in Cilicia in 1919. The attack by Kemalist units against the city of Marash in January 1920, which was accompanied by large-scale slaughtering of the Armenians, spelled the beginning of the end for the remnant Armenian population. The Armenians of Hajen (Hadjin) put up a last desperate fight for seven months only to be reduced by October 1920 to less than five hundred survivors who fled from a city completely torched by the besieging Turks. When the French formally agreed to evacuate Cilicia in October 1921, the debacle signified a second deportation for the Armenians of the region. In the meantime, the Turkish Nationalist forces had gone to war against the Republic of Armenia. With secret instructions from the Ankara government to proceed with the physical elimination of Armenia, General Kiazim Karabekir seized half the territories of Armenia in November 1920 as Red Army units Sovietized the remaining areas. Once again the Armenian population was driven out at the point of the sword with heavy casualties as the city of Kars and its surrounding region were annexed by Turkey.

The final chapter of the Armenians in Anatolia was written in Smyrna (Izmir) as Kemalist forces routed the Greek army and entered the city in September 1922. Soon after, a fire begun in the Armenian neighborhood consumed the entire Christian sector of the city and drove the civilian population to the shore whence they sailed into exile bereft of all belongings. With this exodus from the mainland, Mustafa Kemal completed what Talaat and Enver had started in 1915, the eradication of the Armenian population of Anatolia and the termination of Armenian political aspirations in the Caucasus. With the expulsion of the Greeks, the Turkification and Islamification of Asia Minor was nearly complete.  Link - Ataturk
Ta for that. Yep, somewhat grim I'll grant you. I was kindof alluding to Ataturk in a founding of secular modern Turkey mode; not any potential genocidal tendencies. Erdogan is turning into (was always?) a grubby little dictator and like all dictators, he can't cope with any personal slights or fun poked at his expense; which probably makes him quite dangerous.

I should have worded it differently. Ataturk wasn't the cause of the genocide, but was responsible for completing it.

Erdogan is dangerous. Turkey will cease to be a democracy while under his control, and the coup attempt has provided him the perfect opportunity to destroy any opposition to him and force reforms.

I watched Erdogans speech to the nation. He isn't happy that the EU voiced concerns that his response to the attempted coup is heavy handed. He said they should butt out, and that Turkey 'has the might to defend itself'. Not the words of someone who really cares about EU membership.


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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 22 Jul 2016, 2:20 pm

That's because they never really had a shot and are decades away from it even prior to the coup. He'll be dead by that time so I don't think it's in his interests to concern himself too much about them.

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Post by Guest on Fri 22 Jul 2016, 2:54 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:That's because they never really had a shot and are decades away from it even prior to the coup. He'll be dead by that time so I don't think it's in his interests to concern himself too much about them.


Turkey would have been able to join the EU. It's something the people wanted, and leaders such as Cameron wanted. The thing is, I'm not sure it's what Erdogan wanted. I believe the vision of Erdogan excludes membership of the EU. He knows his reforms will never entitle Turkey to EU membership.

I talked to a few Turks while visiting Turkey a few years ago. They were really excited at the prospect of joining the EU. That dream is well and truly shattered now.

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