Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

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Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Sin é on Sat 23 Jul 2016, 11:21 am

First topic message reminder :

What it says in the title - a place to put all bits of news not worth starting a thread for the Four Proud Provinces of Ireland such as new signings, interviews that maybe of interest to others etc.


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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Munchkin on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 7:56 pm

profitius wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
profitius wrote:The most amazing thing about Pienaar leaving has been the amount of people who are suddenly very concerned about his family. All this faux concern doesn't sit right with me. Its been used against David Nucifora too which is a below the belt arguement. Gerry Thornley was using this argument last night on the radio.


Go back a few weeks before it hit the news. If it was announced that Ulster were signing Aaron Smith instead of Pienaar, would anyone be concerned with Pienaars family? Yeah right! Every year dozens of players are left go from the provinces and nobody is worried about their families. Some of these would be lads who are trying their hardest to become a professional rugby player and earning peanuts.


I've nothing against Pienaar btw. He is a good player and will be a loss but rules are rules. You can't give a NIQ player a third contract. If they're breaking rules they might as well scrap the rules.

That's a rather shallow reading of what has actually been said, and also one that accusing Ulster fans, and plenty of fans from the other Provinces, of lying. I expected better from you than a cheap shot to justify your rather weak perspective on the IRFU forcing Pienaar out.


Sorry but I didn't bring families into it.
I heard Gerry Thornley on the radio last night talking about how unfair it all was and as if Pienaar and his family were thrown out of their home. Thats nonsense. I didn't hear the families of Ruairdhi Murphy, Bronson Ross, Paul Rowley, Frankie Taggart, Paul Jackson etc being mentioned when they were let go. I'm not accusing anyone of anything but theres no harm pointing that out.

You did bring families into by bringing it up in this thread. I would also have to say it's rather convenient talking about the emotional aspect while ignoring the valid points outside of the emotional impact it has on Pienaar, his family and the supporters.

Murphy? Ross? Jackson? Are you serious? Clutching at straws there, prof, and I would have to think it's because you have no answer to the hard hitting question of what possible benefit is it to have the IRFU force Pienaar out.

You did accuse fans of a faux concern about Pienaar being forced out. I can tell you as a fan that there's nothing faux about my disappointment for him and his family, and that's because I have witnessed the 100% commitment of Pienaar to Ulster Rugby, and the wider rugby community.


Last edited by Munchkin on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 7:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Munchkin on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 7:56 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:Ach, lads. Pienaar? Still?

Can we not just chalk it up as the greatest injustice ever and move on?

Well, I can Hug

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by The Great Aukster on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 10:45 pm

Munchkin wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Thanks for the post Munchkin. It is indeed great to read about good things happening at Ulster.  OK

When D'Arcy departs from the factual into the hypothetical he loses some credibility though. It is fantasy to think that Ulster have a player like Conor Murray in the academy. Pienaar has been with Ulster six years and there are no signs that any of the scrummies on the books such as Ian Porter, Michael Heaney, Dave Shanahan, or Paul Marshall for that matter are any closer to being world class than when he arrived. This implies Pienaar needs to start with silk to tailor a purse rather than the perpetual sow's ears laid in front of him.

What D'Arcy is proposing is not only to extend Pienaar's contract (which would be fantastic!), but also to get the best prospect in Ireland (say McGrath) to understudy him. Maybe rugby is escapism and a fantasy world but that really is stretching credibility to the limits.

Your wilfully missing the point, methinks.

Darcy isn't alone in his thinking. Add Thornley, among others.

You're wilfully missing the point, methinks. Darcy is saying that nobody has come through that can be deemed international level. There have been, and is, plenty of scrumhalfs tried out, and none have been able to replace Marshall.
If a potential international standard player is to come through then they will be without Pienaar as mentor. Anyone with half an ounce of wit can see that having Pienaar as mentor would be a huge benefit to both Ulster Rugby and the IRFU. That is simple logic.
If it happened that no international standard prospect were to challenge Marshall, then at least Ulster have a world class talent in Pienaar, for the remainder of his playing days. That is simple logic.
Without Pienaar, and without any scrumhalf of international standard, Ulster will be much less effective, and will not challenge for the top. That is simple logic.

However much you and prof attempt to trivialise it, you can't get passed the fact that the IRFU forcing Pienaar out makes no good sense, and is in fact counter productive to both Ulster Rugby and the IRFU.


Journalists seek to write about contentious story shocker!

The point is losing Pienaar is unquestionably a big blow to Ulster, but has very questionable impact on the IRFU - a classic province v country conflict. Profitius has mentioned that if the rules are broken then there are no rules, and if the rules have to be broken because they are nonsensical, then they should be scrapped anyway. That is the point and it is neither trivial nor missed.

If D'Arcy and Thornley are endorsing rule-breaking, then does that also cover the number of NIQs or project players in Ireland, or have they missed that point?

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Notch on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 10:59 pm

The rules don't need to be broken, but when more benefit is occurred to everybody by bending them then go ahead and bend them! The rules are designed to make Irish Rugby stronger. Enforcing them when it makes for a net loss to Irish Rugby is just silly.

It's a project player in another province that is causing the issue with Pienaar; Gibson-Park. Two first choice non-Irish 9s IS a problem. But the time he takes away from Irish scrum-halves while at Leinster, is not solved by Pienaar leaving Ulster unless some of the promising talent he is blocking is moved North to replace Pienaar. Because Pienaar is only blocking Paul Marshall and a couple of guys who will be slowly eased into playing at Pro12 level over the next year or two. Not international prospects. For the IRFU to point to their decision to block Pienaar from resigning and be legitimately able to claim it has had a benefit to the national side, then someone who can compete for Irish international honours needs in the short-term future needs to be signed for Ulster.

I await that with baited breath. But, if it doesn't happen, the whole thing is a shambles for me as I reckon Leinster and probably Connacht will have much more promising scrum-halves sitting on the bench than we do starting next year. Meanwhile the players in other positions who are current and future internationals will be in a weaker team. Who wins then?


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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Notch on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 11:04 pm

profitius wrote:The most amazing thing about Pienaar leaving has been the amount of people who are suddenly very concerned about his family. All this faux concern doesn't sit right with me. Its been used against David Nucifora too which is a below the belt arguement.  

Well that is a ridiculous and shallow point to be making, quite frankly.

Forget Rugby for a second. This is a guy who has gone around churches in his spare time to talk to people, throw a ball around with kids, sign autographs and so on. I know several people who have met him and they speak highly of him and how he conducts himself. Always making extra time for the fans. Always doing things for the community outside of his duties as an Ulster Rugby player. Obviously he is also an exemplary rugby player, but even with zero reference to what happens on the pitch it's a travesty that that will be lost. We're not allowed to be gutted for him and his family? He's invested himself not just in Ulster Rugby, but in the Rugby community and the wider community here. He's an exemplary ambassador for the team and he's one of us- he's an Ulsterman.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by profitius on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 11:18 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Thanks for the post Munchkin. It is indeed great to read about good things happening at Ulster.  OK

When D'Arcy departs from the factual into the hypothetical he loses some credibility though. It is fantasy to think that Ulster have a player like Conor Murray in the academy. Pienaar has been with Ulster six years and there are no signs that any of the scrummies on the books such as Ian Porter, Michael Heaney, Dave Shanahan, or Paul Marshall for that matter are any closer to being world class than when he arrived. This implies Pienaar needs to start with silk to tailor a purse rather than the perpetual sow's ears laid in front of him.

What D'Arcy is proposing is not only to extend Pienaar's contract (which would be fantastic!), but also to get the best prospect in Ireland (say McGrath) to understudy him. Maybe rugby is escapism and a fantasy world but that really is stretching credibility to the limits.

Your wilfully missing the point, methinks.

Darcy isn't alone in his thinking. Add Thornley, among others.

You're wilfully missing the point, methinks. Darcy is saying that nobody has come through that can be deemed international level. There have been, and is, plenty of scrumhalfs tried out, and none have been able to replace Marshall.
If a potential international standard player is to come through then they will be without Pienaar as mentor. Anyone with half an ounce of wit can see that having Pienaar as mentor would be a huge benefit to both Ulster Rugby and the IRFU. That is simple logic.
If it happened that no international standard prospect were to challenge Marshall, then at least Ulster have a world class talent in Pienaar, for the remainder of his playing days. That is simple logic.
Without Pienaar, and without any scrumhalf of international standard, Ulster will be much less effective, and will not challenge for the top. That is simple logic.

However much you and prof attempt to trivialise it, you can't get passed the fact that the IRFU forcing Pienaar out makes no good sense, and is in fact counter productive to both Ulster Rugby and the IRFU.


Journalists seek to write about contentious story shocker!

The point is losing Pienaar is unquestionably a big blow to Ulster, but has very questionable impact on the IRFU - a classic province v country conflict. Profitius has mentioned that if the rules are broken then there are no rules, and if the rules have to be broken because they are nonsensical, then they should be scrapped anyway. That is the point and it is neither trivial nor missed.

If D'Arcy and Thornley are endorsing rule-breaking, then does that also cover the number of NIQs or project players in Ireland, or have they missed that point?


Indeed. What people must remember is the reason why the IRFU are so strict now is because the teams were regularly breaking the rules previously. Thats why they had to be extra strict.


The rules of the road don't always allow for common sense and can annoy people but they're there for a reason.


Munchkin, we'll have to agree to disagree.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Munchkin on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 12:15 am

The Great Aukster wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Thanks for the post Munchkin. It is indeed great to read about good things happening at Ulster.  OK

When D'Arcy departs from the factual into the hypothetical he loses some credibility though. It is fantasy to think that Ulster have a player like Conor Murray in the academy. Pienaar has been with Ulster six years and there are no signs that any of the scrummies on the books such as Ian Porter, Michael Heaney, Dave Shanahan, or Paul Marshall for that matter are any closer to being world class than when he arrived. This implies Pienaar needs to start with silk to tailor a purse rather than the perpetual sow's ears laid in front of him.

What D'Arcy is proposing is not only to extend Pienaar's contract (which would be fantastic!), but also to get the best prospect in Ireland (say McGrath) to understudy him. Maybe rugby is escapism and a fantasy world but that really is stretching credibility to the limits.

Your wilfully missing the point, methinks.

Darcy isn't alone in his thinking. Add Thornley, among others.

You're wilfully missing the point, methinks. Darcy is saying that nobody has come through that can be deemed international level. There have been, and is, plenty of scrumhalfs tried out, and none have been able to replace Marshall.
If a potential international standard player is to come through then they will be without Pienaar as mentor. Anyone with half an ounce of wit can see that having Pienaar as mentor would be a huge benefit to both Ulster Rugby and the IRFU. That is simple logic.
If it happened that no international standard prospect were to challenge Marshall, then at least Ulster have a world class talent in Pienaar, for the remainder of his playing days. That is simple logic.
Without Pienaar, and without any scrumhalf of international standard, Ulster will be much less effective, and will not challenge for the top. That is simple logic.

However much you and prof attempt to trivialise it, you can't get passed the fact that the IRFU forcing Pienaar out makes no good sense, and is in fact counter productive to both Ulster Rugby and the IRFU.


Journalists seek to write about contentious story shocker!

The point is losing Pienaar is unquestionably a big blow to Ulster, but has very questionable impact on the IRFU - a classic province v country conflict. Profitius has mentioned that if the rules are broken then there are no rules, and if the rules have to be broken because they are nonsensical, then they should be scrapped anyway. That is the point and it is neither trivial nor missed.

If D'Arcy and Thornley are endorsing rule-breaking, then does that also cover the number of NIQs or project players in Ireland, or have they missed that point?

The bit in bold is just smoke from you. What about answering the real questions; who does it benefit that the IRFU force Pienaar out? Who does it hurt that the IRFU force Pienaar out? Show me the genuine positive in this, Aukster, and I will listen.

The rules are not nonsensical. How they are applied may well be. 'nonsensical' is rigidly applying a rule that is damages to all, including those that enforce it. That's the height of stupidity.

If strictly adhering to rules is counter productive to those enforcing them, then those that created those rules are fools. Rules need a little give.

There's some rather lame excuses coming out, and now we have a jobsworth IRFU.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Sin é on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 12:21 am

Notch wrote:
profitius wrote:The most amazing thing about Pienaar leaving has been the amount of people who are suddenly very concerned about his family. All this faux concern doesn't sit right with me. Its been used against David Nucifora too which is a below the belt arguement.  

Well that is a ridiculous and shallow point to be making, quite frankly.

Forget Rugby for a second. This is a guy who has gone around churches in his spare time to talk to people, throw a ball around with kids, sign autographs and so on. I know several people who have met him and they speak highly of him and how he conducts himself. Always making extra time for the fans. Always doing things for the community outside of his duties as an Ulster Rugby player. Obviously he is also an exemplary rugby player, but even with zero reference to what happens on the pitch it's a travesty that that will be lost. We're not allowed to be gutted for him and his family? He's invested himself not just in Ulster Rugby, but in the Rugby community and the wider community here. He's an exemplary ambassador for the team and he's one of us- he's an Ulsterman.

In fairness, Pienaar has done very well out of Ulster - what with him continuing to play international rugby. Letting Pienaar stay, while forcing a load of other great servants out is kicking a load of players in the fact - for example, Paul Warwick has very strong ties to Munster (his wife is local) and has a daughter that suffers from cystic fibrosis, he could play 3 positions (outhalf, inside centre & fullback so was blocking no one) and he couldn't get a contract in Munster once he hit 30. Similarly with Mafi who had been with Munster since he was a kid. Both were great Munster servants and Paul Warwick is a real class act.

Ulster/Humphreys pulled a real fast one on the IRFU for one of Pienaar's contracts (giving him an extra long contract when new rules were introduced) so maybe its the IRFU getting its own back.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Munchkin on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 12:22 am

profitius wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Thanks for the post Munchkin. It is indeed great to read about good things happening at Ulster.  OK

When D'Arcy departs from the factual into the hypothetical he loses some credibility though. It is fantasy to think that Ulster have a player like Conor Murray in the academy. Pienaar has been with Ulster six years and there are no signs that any of the scrummies on the books such as Ian Porter, Michael Heaney, Dave Shanahan, or Paul Marshall for that matter are any closer to being world class than when he arrived. This implies Pienaar needs to start with silk to tailor a purse rather than the perpetual sow's ears laid in front of him.

What D'Arcy is proposing is not only to extend Pienaar's contract (which would be fantastic!), but also to get the best prospect in Ireland (say McGrath) to understudy him. Maybe rugby is escapism and a fantasy world but that really is stretching credibility to the limits.

Your wilfully missing the point, methinks.

Darcy isn't alone in his thinking. Add Thornley, among others.

You're wilfully missing the point, methinks. Darcy is saying that nobody has come through that can be deemed international level. There have been, and is, plenty of scrumhalfs tried out, and none have been able to replace Marshall.
If a potential international standard player is to come through then they will be without Pienaar as mentor. Anyone with half an ounce of wit can see that having Pienaar as mentor would be a huge benefit to both Ulster Rugby and the IRFU. That is simple logic.
If it happened that no international standard prospect were to challenge Marshall, then at least Ulster have a world class talent in Pienaar, for the remainder of his playing days. That is simple logic.
Without Pienaar, and without any scrumhalf of international standard, Ulster will be much less effective, and will not challenge for the top. That is simple logic.

However much you and prof attempt to trivialise it, you can't get passed the fact that the IRFU forcing Pienaar out makes no good sense, and is in fact counter productive to both Ulster Rugby and the IRFU.


Journalists seek to write about contentious story shocker!

The point is losing Pienaar is unquestionably a big blow to Ulster, but has very questionable impact on the IRFU - a classic province v country conflict. Profitius has mentioned that if the rules are broken then there are no rules, and if the rules have to be broken because they are nonsensical, then they should be scrapped anyway. That is the point and it is neither trivial nor missed.

If D'Arcy and Thornley are endorsing rule-breaking, then does that also cover the number of NIQs or project players in Ireland, or have they missed that point?


Indeed. What people must remember is the reason why the IRFU are so strict now is because the teams were regularly breaking the rules previously. Thats why they had to be extra strict.


The rules of the road don't always allow for common sense and can annoy people but they're there for a reason.


Munchkin, we'll have to agree to disagree.

We will, prof, and that's ok. I still think you're a great poster, and can see past this one error Very Happy Hug

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Sin é on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 12:24 am

Munchkin wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Thanks for the post Munchkin. It is indeed great to read about good things happening at Ulster.  OK

When D'Arcy departs from the factual into the hypothetical he loses some credibility though. It is fantasy to think that Ulster have a player like Conor Murray in the academy. Pienaar has been with Ulster six years and there are no signs that any of the scrummies on the books such as Ian Porter, Michael Heaney, Dave Shanahan, or Paul Marshall for that matter are any closer to being world class than when he arrived. This implies Pienaar needs to start with silk to tailor a purse rather than the perpetual sow's ears laid in front of him.

What D'Arcy is proposing is not only to extend Pienaar's contract (which would be fantastic!), but also to get the best prospect in Ireland (say McGrath) to understudy him. Maybe rugby is escapism and a fantasy world but that really is stretching credibility to the limits.

Your wilfully missing the point, methinks.

Darcy isn't alone in his thinking. Add Thornley, among others.

You're wilfully missing the point, methinks. Darcy is saying that nobody has come through that can be deemed international level. There have been, and is, plenty of scrumhalfs tried out, and none have been able to replace Marshall.
If a potential international standard player is to come through then they will be without Pienaar as mentor. Anyone with half an ounce of wit can see that having Pienaar as mentor would be a huge benefit to both Ulster Rugby and the IRFU. That is simple logic.
If it happened that no international standard prospect were to challenge Marshall, then at least Ulster have a world class talent in Pienaar, for the remainder of his playing days. That is simple logic.
Without Pienaar, and without any scrumhalf of international standard, Ulster will be much less effective, and will not challenge for the top. That is simple logic.

However much you and prof attempt to trivialise it, you can't get passed the fact that the IRFU forcing Pienaar out makes no good sense, and is in fact counter productive to both Ulster Rugby and the IRFU.


Journalists seek to write about contentious story shocker!

The point is losing Pienaar is unquestionably a big blow to Ulster, but has very questionable impact on the IRFU - a classic province v country conflict. Profitius has mentioned that if the rules are broken then there are no rules, and if the rules have to be broken because they are nonsensical, then they should be scrapped anyway. That is the point and it is neither trivial nor missed.

If D'Arcy and Thornley are endorsing rule-breaking, then does that also cover the number of NIQs or project players in Ireland, or have they missed that point?

The bit in bold is just smoke from you. What about answering the real questions; who does it benefit that the IRFU force Pienaar out? Who does it hurt that the IRFU force Pienaar out? Show me the genuine positive in this, Aukster, and I will listen.

The rules are not nonsensical. How they are applied may well be. 'nonsensical' is rigidly applying a rule that is damages to all, including those that enforce it. That's the height of stupidity.

If strictly adhering to rules is counter productive to those enforcing them, then those that created those rules are fools. Rules need a little give.

There's some rather lame excuses coming out, and now we have a jobsworth IRFU.

If the IRFU let Ulster do as they like, they are going to have to let the other Provinces do similarly.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Munchkin on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 12:25 am

Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:
profitius wrote:The most amazing thing about Pienaar leaving has been the amount of people who are suddenly very concerned about his family. All this faux concern doesn't sit right with me. Its been used against David Nucifora too which is a below the belt arguement.  

Well that is a ridiculous and shallow point to be making, quite frankly.

Forget Rugby for a second. This is a guy who has gone around churches in his spare time to talk to people, throw a ball around with kids, sign autographs and so on. I know several people who have met him and they speak highly of him and how he conducts himself. Always making extra time for the fans. Always doing things for the community outside of his duties as an Ulster Rugby player. Obviously he is also an exemplary rugby player, but even with zero reference to what happens on the pitch it's a travesty that that will be lost. We're not allowed to be gutted for him and his family? He's invested himself not just in Ulster Rugby, but in the Rugby community and the wider community here. He's an exemplary ambassador for the team and he's one of us- he's an Ulsterman.

In fairness, Pienaar has done very well out of Ulster - what with him continuing to play international rugby. Letting Pienaar stay, while forcing a load of other great servants out is kicking a load of players in the fact - for example, Paul Warwick has very strong ties to Munster (his wife is local) and has a daughter that suffers from cystic fibrosis, he could play 3 positions (outhalf, inside centre & fullback so was blocking no one) and he couldn't get a contract in Munster once he hit 30. Similarly with Mafi who had been with Munster since he was a kid. Both were great Munster servants and Paul Warwick is a real class act.

Ulster/Humphreys pulled a real fast one on the IRFU for one of Pienaar's contracts (giving him an extra long contract when new rules were introduced) so maybe its the IRFU getting its own back.
What a load of garbage. Pienaar could easily have done much better, financially, by playing in any of the top clubs for much more money.

The 'whataboutery' doesn't wash either.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Munchkin on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 12:26 am

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Thanks for the post Munchkin. It is indeed great to read about good things happening at Ulster.  OK

When D'Arcy departs from the factual into the hypothetical he loses some credibility though. It is fantasy to think that Ulster have a player like Conor Murray in the academy. Pienaar has been with Ulster six years and there are no signs that any of the scrummies on the books such as Ian Porter, Michael Heaney, Dave Shanahan, or Paul Marshall for that matter are any closer to being world class than when he arrived. This implies Pienaar needs to start with silk to tailor a purse rather than the perpetual sow's ears laid in front of him.

What D'Arcy is proposing is not only to extend Pienaar's contract (which would be fantastic!), but also to get the best prospect in Ireland (say McGrath) to understudy him. Maybe rugby is escapism and a fantasy world but that really is stretching credibility to the limits.

Your wilfully missing the point, methinks.

Darcy isn't alone in his thinking. Add Thornley, among others.

You're wilfully missing the point, methinks. Darcy is saying that nobody has come through that can be deemed international level. There have been, and is, plenty of scrumhalfs tried out, and none have been able to replace Marshall.
If a potential international standard player is to come through then they will be without Pienaar as mentor. Anyone with half an ounce of wit can see that having Pienaar as mentor would be a huge benefit to both Ulster Rugby and the IRFU. That is simple logic.
If it happened that no international standard prospect were to challenge Marshall, then at least Ulster have a world class talent in Pienaar, for the remainder of his playing days. That is simple logic.
Without Pienaar, and without any scrumhalf of international standard, Ulster will be much less effective, and will not challenge for the top. That is simple logic.

However much you and prof attempt to trivialise it, you can't get passed the fact that the IRFU forcing Pienaar out makes no good sense, and is in fact counter productive to both Ulster Rugby and the IRFU.


Journalists seek to write about contentious story shocker!

The point is losing Pienaar is unquestionably a big blow to Ulster, but has very questionable impact on the IRFU - a classic province v country conflict. Profitius has mentioned that if the rules are broken then there are no rules, and if the rules have to be broken because they are nonsensical, then they should be scrapped anyway. That is the point and it is neither trivial nor missed.

If D'Arcy and Thornley are endorsing rule-breaking, then does that also cover the number of NIQs or project players in Ireland, or have they missed that point?

The bit in bold is just smoke from you. What about answering the real questions; who does it benefit that the IRFU force Pienaar out? Who does it hurt that the IRFU force Pienaar out? Show me the genuine positive in this, Aukster, and I will listen.

The rules are not nonsensical. How they are applied may well be. 'nonsensical' is rigidly applying a rule that is damages to all, including those that enforce it. That's the height of stupidity.

If strictly adhering to rules is counter productive to those enforcing them, then those that created those rules are fools. Rules need a little give.

There's some rather lame excuses coming out, and now we have a jobsworth IRFU.

If the IRFU let Ulster do as they like, they are going to have to let the other Provinces do similarly.

They don't have to do anything of the sort. They should apply a little common sense as the situation requires. Not damage a teams chances of success, especially when that team has no viable alternative as a replacement, and through no fault of their own.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Sin é on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 12:35 am

Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:
profitius wrote:The most amazing thing about Pienaar leaving has been the amount of people who are suddenly very concerned about his family. All this faux concern doesn't sit right with me. Its been used against David Nucifora too which is a below the belt arguement.  

Well that is a ridiculous and shallow point to be making, quite frankly.

Forget Rugby for a second. This is a guy who has gone around churches in his spare time to talk to people, throw a ball around with kids, sign autographs and so on. I know several people who have met him and they speak highly of him and how he conducts himself. Always making extra time for the fans. Always doing things for the community outside of his duties as an Ulster Rugby player. Obviously he is also an exemplary rugby player, but even with zero reference to what happens on the pitch it's a travesty that that will be lost. We're not allowed to be gutted for him and his family? He's invested himself not just in Ulster Rugby, but in the Rugby community and the wider community here. He's an exemplary ambassador for the team and he's one of us- he's an Ulsterman.

In fairness, Pienaar has done very well out of Ulster - what with him continuing to play international rugby. Letting Pienaar stay, while forcing a load of other great servants out is kicking a load of players in the fact - for example, Paul Warwick has very strong ties to Munster (his wife is local) and has a daughter that suffers from cystic fibrosis, he could play 3 positions (outhalf, inside centre & fullback so was blocking no one) and he couldn't get a contract in Munster once he hit 30. Similarly with Mafi who had been with Munster since he was a kid. Both were great Munster servants and Paul Warwick is a real class act.

Ulster/Humphreys pulled a real fast one on the IRFU for one of Pienaar's contracts (giving him an extra long contract when new rules were introduced) so maybe its the IRFU getting its own back.
 What a load of garbage. Pienaar could easily have done much better, financially, by playing in any of the top clubs for much more money.

The 'whataboutery' doesn't wash either.

Well, this 'great servant of Ulster' doesn't wash either. Pienaar was treated very well in Ulster. Not many clubs would be tolerant of his continuing to play for SA in such a key position which would have more than compensated him for any financial loss. Just look at how much playing in France took out of Jonathan Sexton in his time in France! BJ Botha got plenty of offers in France, but decided to stay in Ireland for the best part of his career despite probably earning less money. At the moment he is over in Lyon (I think) while his family (some of whom are Irish) remain in Limerick. Why is Pienaar any more special than these guys?

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Sin é on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 12:40 am

Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Thanks for the post Munchkin. It is indeed great to read about good things happening at Ulster.  OK

When D'Arcy departs from the factual into the hypothetical he loses some credibility though. It is fantasy to think that Ulster have a player like Conor Murray in the academy. Pienaar has been with Ulster six years and there are no signs that any of the scrummies on the books such as Ian Porter, Michael Heaney, Dave Shanahan, or Paul Marshall for that matter are any closer to being world class than when he arrived. This implies Pienaar needs to start with silk to tailor a purse rather than the perpetual sow's ears laid in front of him.

What D'Arcy is proposing is not only to extend Pienaar's contract (which would be fantastic!), but also to get the best prospect in Ireland (say McGrath) to understudy him. Maybe rugby is escapism and a fantasy world but that really is stretching credibility to the limits.

Your wilfully missing the point, methinks.

Darcy isn't alone in his thinking. Add Thornley, among others.

You're wilfully missing the point, methinks. Darcy is saying that nobody has come through that can be deemed international level. There have been, and is, plenty of scrumhalfs tried out, and none have been able to replace Marshall.
If a potential international standard player is to come through then they will be without Pienaar as mentor. Anyone with half an ounce of wit can see that having Pienaar as mentor would be a huge benefit to both Ulster Rugby and the IRFU. That is simple logic.
If it happened that no international standard prospect were to challenge Marshall, then at least Ulster have a world class talent in Pienaar, for the remainder of his playing days. That is simple logic.
Without Pienaar, and without any scrumhalf of international standard, Ulster will be much less effective, and will not challenge for the top. That is simple logic.

However much you and prof attempt to trivialise it, you can't get passed the fact that the IRFU forcing Pienaar out makes no good sense, and is in fact counter productive to both Ulster Rugby and the IRFU.


Journalists seek to write about contentious story shocker!

The point is losing Pienaar is unquestionably a big blow to Ulster, but has very questionable impact on the IRFU - a classic province v country conflict. Profitius has mentioned that if the rules are broken then there are no rules, and if the rules have to be broken because they are nonsensical, then they should be scrapped anyway. That is the point and it is neither trivial nor missed.

If D'Arcy and Thornley are endorsing rule-breaking, then does that also cover the number of NIQs or project players in Ireland, or have they missed that point?

The bit in bold is just smoke from you. What about answering the real questions; who does it benefit that the IRFU force Pienaar out? Who does it hurt that the IRFU force Pienaar out? Show me the genuine positive in this, Aukster, and I will listen.

The rules are not nonsensical. How they are applied may well be. 'nonsensical' is rigidly applying a rule that is damages to all, including those that enforce it. That's the height of stupidity.

If strictly adhering to rules is counter productive to those enforcing them, then those that created those rules are fools. Rules need a little give.

There's some rather lame excuses coming out, and now we have a jobsworth IRFU.

If the IRFU let Ulster do as they like, they are going to have to let the other Provinces do similarly.

They don't have to do anything of the sort. They should apply a little common sense as the situation requires. Not damage a teams chances of success, especially when that team has no viable alternative as a replacement, and through no fault of their own.

Ah, so the real reason he is wanted is because it will affect the chances of the team. Munster & Leinster have had to take some tough medicine which seriously affected their ability to compete. Why should Ulster be special?

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Munchkin on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 1:02 am

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Thanks for the post Munchkin. It is indeed great to read about good things happening at Ulster.  OK

When D'Arcy departs from the factual into the hypothetical he loses some credibility though. It is fantasy to think that Ulster have a player like Conor Murray in the academy. Pienaar has been with Ulster six years and there are no signs that any of the scrummies on the books such as Ian Porter, Michael Heaney, Dave Shanahan, or Paul Marshall for that matter are any closer to being world class than when he arrived. This implies Pienaar needs to start with silk to tailor a purse rather than the perpetual sow's ears laid in front of him.

What D'Arcy is proposing is not only to extend Pienaar's contract (which would be fantastic!), but also to get the best prospect in Ireland (say McGrath) to understudy him. Maybe rugby is escapism and a fantasy world but that really is stretching credibility to the limits.

Your wilfully missing the point, methinks.

Darcy isn't alone in his thinking. Add Thornley, among others.

You're wilfully missing the point, methinks. Darcy is saying that nobody has come through that can be deemed international level. There have been, and is, plenty of scrumhalfs tried out, and none have been able to replace Marshall.
If a potential international standard player is to come through then they will be without Pienaar as mentor. Anyone with half an ounce of wit can see that having Pienaar as mentor would be a huge benefit to both Ulster Rugby and the IRFU. That is simple logic.
If it happened that no international standard prospect were to challenge Marshall, then at least Ulster have a world class talent in Pienaar, for the remainder of his playing days. That is simple logic.
Without Pienaar, and without any scrumhalf of international standard, Ulster will be much less effective, and will not challenge for the top. That is simple logic.

However much you and prof attempt to trivialise it, you can't get passed the fact that the IRFU forcing Pienaar out makes no good sense, and is in fact counter productive to both Ulster Rugby and the IRFU.


Journalists seek to write about contentious story shocker!

The point is losing Pienaar is unquestionably a big blow to Ulster, but has very questionable impact on the IRFU - a classic province v country conflict. Profitius has mentioned that if the rules are broken then there are no rules, and if the rules have to be broken because they are nonsensical, then they should be scrapped anyway. That is the point and it is neither trivial nor missed.

If D'Arcy and Thornley are endorsing rule-breaking, then does that also cover the number of NIQs or project players in Ireland, or have they missed that point?

The bit in bold is just smoke from you. What about answering the real questions; who does it benefit that the IRFU force Pienaar out? Who does it hurt that the IRFU force Pienaar out? Show me the genuine positive in this, Aukster, and I will listen.

The rules are not nonsensical. How they are applied may well be. 'nonsensical' is rigidly applying a rule that is damages to all, including those that enforce it. That's the height of stupidity.

If strictly adhering to rules is counter productive to those enforcing them, then those that created those rules are fools. Rules need a little give.

There's some rather lame excuses coming out, and now we have a jobsworth IRFU.

If the IRFU let Ulster do as they like, they are going to have to let the other Provinces do similarly.

They don't have to do anything of the sort. They should apply a little common sense as the situation requires. Not damage a teams chances of success, especially when that team has no viable alternative as a replacement, and through no fault of their own.

Ah, so the real reason he is wanted is because it will affect the chances of the team. Munster & Leinster have had to take some tough medicine which seriously affected their ability to compete. Why should Ulster be special?

Of course it's a reason, and a very valid reason. What planet do you live on if you think the success of the Provinces isn't important to the whole? Are you now saying that the IRFU do not view the success of the Provinces as important. I see now that this may well be true, but if it's true then it's a self defeating truth.

Special? It has sod all to do with being 'special', and everything to do with common sense. Seriously, some of the comments coming from those who have some need to defend the IRFU at all costs, is rather juvenile.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Munchkin on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 1:09 am

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:
profitius wrote:The most amazing thing about Pienaar leaving has been the amount of people who are suddenly very concerned about his family. All this faux concern doesn't sit right with me. Its been used against David Nucifora too which is a below the belt arguement.  

Well that is a ridiculous and shallow point to be making, quite frankly.

Forget Rugby for a second. This is a guy who has gone around churches in his spare time to talk to people, throw a ball around with kids, sign autographs and so on. I know several people who have met him and they speak highly of him and how he conducts himself. Always making extra time for the fans. Always doing things for the community outside of his duties as an Ulster Rugby player. Obviously he is also an exemplary rugby player, but even with zero reference to what happens on the pitch it's a travesty that that will be lost. We're not allowed to be gutted for him and his family? He's invested himself not just in Ulster Rugby, but in the Rugby community and the wider community here. He's an exemplary ambassador for the team and he's one of us- he's an Ulsterman.

In fairness, Pienaar has done very well out of Ulster - what with him continuing to play international rugby. Letting Pienaar stay, while forcing a load of other great servants out is kicking a load of players in the fact - for example, Paul Warwick has very strong ties to Munster (his wife is local) and has a daughter that suffers from cystic fibrosis, he could play 3 positions (outhalf, inside centre & fullback so was blocking no one) and he couldn't get a contract in Munster once he hit 30. Similarly with Mafi who had been with Munster since he was a kid. Both were great Munster servants and Paul Warwick is a real class act.

Ulster/Humphreys pulled a real fast one on the IRFU for one of Pienaar's contracts (giving him an extra long contract when new rules were introduced) so maybe its the IRFU getting its own back.
 What a load of garbage. Pienaar could easily have done much better, financially, by playing in any of the top clubs for much more money.

The 'whataboutery' doesn't wash either.

Well, this 'great servant of Ulster' doesn't wash either. Pienaar was treated very well in Ulster. Not many clubs would be tolerant of his continuing to play for SA in such a key position which would have more than compensated him for any financial loss. Just look at how much playing in France took out of Jonathan Sexton in his time in France! BJ Botha got plenty of offers in France, but decided to stay in Ireland for the best part of his career despite probably earning less money. At the moment he is over in Lyon (I think) while his family (some of whom are Irish) remain in Limerick. Why is Pienaar any more special than these guys?

What doesn't wash is the rubbish some of you are coming out with.

Answer the question; what good are the IRFU doing for rugby in Ireland by forcing Pienaar out? What damage are the IRFU doing to rugby in Ireland by forcing Pienaar out, and Ulster Rugby specifically.

It isn't the fans that are focusing on the plea to the emotions. It's you lot defending the IRFU because it deflects away from the uncomfortable truth that the decision makes no good sense.

If this was a business decision ( as it's supposed to be ) then those responsible would be sacked. Amateurs ...

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Pete330v2 on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 9:15 am

Comparing BJ to Ruan???
That doesn't wash either, points are being missed here like anti-point marchers at an anti-point rally.

"Why is Pienaar any more special than these guys?"

I've heard it said so many times that when Pienaar plays well, Ulster plays well. That's how crucial he is to Ulster's fortunes and to replace him with the prospects we have will weaken Ulster to a far higher degree than Munster losing BJ weakened Munster. I mean, we didn't even miss BJ, do you ?? Smile

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by profitius on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 12:39 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:Ach, lads. Pienaar? Still?

Can we not just chalk it up as the greatest injustice ever and move on?


Let's just blame Philbb and move on. Very Happy

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by SecretFly on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 12:50 pm

Phill is much too wise to touch this one! Even I'm keeping a low profile here. It's an eggshell thread.... and I'm backing out as silently as I can again.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Sin é on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 4:04 pm

Nice to get a figure put onto pace. (Hope this works now).

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/SimonZebo">@SimonZebo</a> is back at 15 today! Against Scarlets he set a new Munster GPS record with a <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MaxVelocity?src=hash">#MaxVelocity</a> of 10.2m per second.. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MUNvZEB?src=hash">#MUNvZEB</a> <a href="https://t.co/gTbhdZOexj">pic.twitter.com/gTbhdZOexj</a></p>— Munster Rugby (@Munsterrugby) <a href="https://twitter.com/Munsterrugby/status/782188328560893953">October 1, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by SecretFly on Sun 02 Oct 2016, 1:00 pm

...............................em..........................................

it didn't.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Munchkin on Sun 02 Oct 2016, 1:46 pm

10.2 Cool

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by marty2086 on Mon 10 Oct 2016, 3:52 pm

Dillane and Farrell have reportedly signed on for Munster according the Pundit Arenas secret agent, be interesting to see if it comes to fruition

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by profitius on Sun 16 Oct 2016, 1:45 pm

Very sad news. Anthony Foley has died. RIP.
https://twitter.com/IrishRugby/status/787634136764837888

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by profitius on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 1:31 pm

It's been reported the Thomas O'Leary is signing for Montpellier. I hope it's true so Munster can try out another 9.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Munchkin on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 1:44 pm

So Pienaar won't be moving there, if true.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by marty2086 on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 1:54 pm

O'Leary is moving until the end of the season

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Golden on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 2:11 pm

Pienaar is moving to Munster confirmed...... Whistle

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Munchkin on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 2:20 pm

marty2086 wrote:O'Leary is moving until the end of the season

Medical joker, if you believe the reports.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by wolfball on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 3:38 pm

Munchkin wrote:
marty2086 wrote:O'Leary is moving until the end of the season

Medical joker, if you believe the reports.

Does anyone know who originally came up with the term medical joker? It's so bloody good.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by carpet baboon on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 3:43 pm

Havnt we stolen it from American sports?

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by wolfball on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 3:44 pm

from wiki:

Medical joker
A player signed by a professional club as an injury replacement. The term is directly borrowed from the French joker médical and is most commonly associated with France's top league; that country has long allowed such signings.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by carpet baboon on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 3:45 pm

Well I was only wrong by a few thousand miles

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 8:43 pm

Good news on the attendances front for the provinces, in particular, and the league in general.

Total of 277,502 through the gates after Round 6 is 40,000 up on same time last year. 
A good chunk of that increase is from the Leinster/Munster game in Lansdowne, although that particular attendance was down about 3,000 on same game last year.

More detail here - http://www.606v2.com/t64046-pro12-general-2016-17#3451146

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by profitius on Wed 19 Oct 2016, 5:22 pm

New Connacht signing Marnitz Boshoff arrives this friday. He has one springbok cap and is said to be a very good kicker. Carty, while having a good rugby brain, is a very poor kicker.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by wolfball on Sun 23 Oct 2016, 2:26 pm

As there is no Leinster match thread - What was that kearney YC about?!

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Sun 23 Oct 2016, 2:30 pm

wolfball wrote:As there is no Leinster match thread - What was that kearney YC about?!

One of the stranger decisions I have seen recently. I would like to have seen it in realtime again though.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by whocares on Sun 23 Oct 2016, 3:00 pm

Obstruction apparently.
Back to square after 2 rounds in Leinster group with 3 teams at 5 and one at 4 points (unles I missed a BP somewhere).

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Artful_Dodger on Sun 23 Oct 2016, 3:08 pm

Leinster on 6 points - 5 from the bonus point against Castres and 1 losing bonus point today. Castres and Montpellier on 5 and Northampton on 4.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by wolfball on Sun 23 Oct 2016, 3:24 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
wolfball wrote:As there is no Leinster match thread - What was that kearney YC about?!

One of the stranger decisions I have seen recently. I would like to have seen it in realtime again though.

Yeah, I was watching the match. The referee didn't seem to know the rules of the game Re: having to move out of the way for a player. That you can stand your ground. Terrible match to watch.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Pot Hale on Sun 23 Oct 2016, 3:46 pm

Yep curious decision by ref. Kearney said that he stood still in the same spot - he stood taller as Player came at him but he wasn't required to move out of the way. Ref/TMO obviously saw it as he did move into the player's path, but I couldn't see it. Anyways, Leinster were poor.

The key to this pool for Leinster is to get back to back wins against Saints on the December matches. And Castres/Montpellier to cancel each other out.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Artful_Dodger on Sun 23 Oct 2016, 4:27 pm

Red card for Zebre in the Connacht game.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by eirebilly on Sun 23 Oct 2016, 5:22 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:Red card for Zebre in the Connacht game.

That was for the bite was it not? If so, long ban can be expected.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by marty2086 on Sun 23 Oct 2016, 6:13 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Yep curious decision by ref.   Kearney said that he stood still in the same spot - he stood taller as Player came at him but he wasn't required to move out of the way.  Ref/TMO obviously saw it as he did move into the player's path, but I couldn't see it.  Anyways, Leinster were poor.
 

Exactly the same thing happened a few weeks back in the Ulster Scarlets game and it was deemed to be fair, problem is if you run in front of a player and make no move to tackle or block the kick why are you there?

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Don Alfonso on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 6:42 pm

So word is Aki and possibly Lam are away next season. On top of Dillane, that's devastation in Connacht.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by SecretFly on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 6:48 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:So word is Aki and possibly Lam are away next season. On top of Dillane, that's devastation in Connacht.

Where did you hear this, Don?  Did a Google search and can't find anything.  Didn't Lam sign a three year contract last season.  I know they can be broken but the IRFU wouldn't be happy with a coach that 'committed' for another three years and then says he wants to go after one.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Don Alfonso on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 7:41 pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/McCormick_Dave/status/790569352122732544?s=09

Aki subsequently deleted the tweets.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 8:31 pm

It wouldn't be surprised if Aki left. Nor would I be disappointed.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Notch on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 8:39 pm

Seems like Aki might be going then.

Dunno about Lam, maybe he was hoping Schmidt moved on and he moved up? Or maybe its just internet scuttlebutt.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by SecretFly on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 8:53 pm

Incidently, the wording on Schmdt's recent statement... it seems to me (reading between lines as it were) that a decision to move back home was well on the cards for him emotionally and that now this is the second best deal for him to stay on for a while more because that move obviously didn't work out.  

I may be wrong of course in that assumption but I just got a feeling from his mood and words during the year, when talking about possible decision making ahead, that he seemed newly enthused about new possible horizons and mentioned that it would be a family decision.  The recent statement seems business-like and also mentions that it can be a difficult job without the extended family to fall back on.  

I detect a degree of possible family disappointment.  Hopefully, we give him a mood booster with a win over his very own boys in Black Wink

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Sponsored content Today at 6:35 pm


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