Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

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Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Sin é on Sat 23 Jul 2016, 11:21 am

First topic message reminder :

What it says in the title - a place to put all bits of news not worth starting a thread for the Four Proud Provinces of Ireland such as new signings, interviews that maybe of interest to others etc.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Wed 05 Apr 2017, 6:31 pm

I believe his win loss ratio is about the same as EOS.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 7:21 am

theslosty wrote:Joe is becoming an increasingly polarising figure on this site however the truth (as always) lies somewhere in the middle. Personally I'd rate his tenure so far at 7/10... results wise he's probably our most successful coach ever but he loses a point for the rather depressing style of rugby we play (although there is a hint of irony in the Munster criticisms, a team not exactly renowned for its attacking enterprise). His team selections can be frustratingly conservative to the extent it takes an injury for the form player to break in (see O'Mahony and Payne vs England).

What I've found particularly difficult as an Irish supporter is that Joe coached one of the most creative teams ever seen in Europe, so it's not like he's incapable of doing it. That Leinster side circa 2010-13 was for me the FC Barcelona of rugby.
Guns reckons Joe is just making the best of what we've got - that this backline doesn't square up to what we had in years past. Clearly this generation has no one in BOD's class and with the turgid stuff the provinces (minus Connacht) were serving up last year, I could accept this argument. However Leinster and Munster have been scoring for fun this season, and given they make up the bulk of the Irish side it's frustrating that this isn't translating to the Test arena. Perhaps the gap between European club rugby and Test rugby is greater than it used to be, in fairness to Joe.

Moving on, the induction of ROG is an interesting move. I haven't seen much of his punditry on RTE, did he ever comment much on Schmidt? Would be particularly interesting if he's made many criticisms in the way Shane Horgan did recently.

Its a fair arguement however, scoring tries at pro 12 level isnt the same as scoring in six nations games. The six nations is right now the rugby tournament with the best defenses in the world. I think its fair enough that the team adapts for the six nations. It seems to me for example that we tend to score more tries in November. Coincidence? Despite what a lot of people describe as "trugid stuff" we have scored more tries than any other team in the six nations bar England and yet they only have a few more.

The thing that annoys me about most of the criticism is that if you dig a little most of it doesnt stand up to any scrutiny.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 7:30 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:I believe his win loss ratio is about the same as EOS.

EOS' was 64% Schmidt is in the 70s. EOS did well but we had a strong side and much weaker competition back then.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 8:00 am

I would like to see how many tries were scored by forwards or from mauls during the Schmidt tenure.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Sin é on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 9:14 am

Some interesting comments from Zebo in today's Examiner.
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Zebo’s adventurous style of play hasn’t always sat comfortably with a range of coaches, most notably Ireland’s Joe Schmidt who was slow to include him when it seemed the most obvious course of action.

The fact that Erasmus has invariably emphasised the positives and worked on improving the negatives means Zebo is a great admirer of the South African and clearly wishes him to stay in situ.

“Rassie is a class act and one of the best coaches I’ve ever had. How he gets players up for games is incredible and something I haven’t dealt with before. His consistency in bringing the best out of people is the best I’ve ever dealt with.

“If you look at the run of games we’ve had and some of the wins that we shouldn’t have won, a lot of that is down to Rassie. A lot of the credit has to go to Jacques Nienaber as well. They’re both very similar men with great rugby brains. Their reaction when we make mistakes is incredible, brilliant. There is absolutely no fear whatsoever.

“Jacques would be the first person to say if you’re going to miss a tackle give it 100% and who cares if you miss it. You say, good man, you stepped me, but I’ll get you next time, you know.

“And it’s the same in attack if you want to try an offload. Look at fellas like Darren Sweetnam and these guys coming through, he’s playing with no fear and it’s great because they are really allowed to express themselves.

“The squad has bought into it and we are all playing with the same confidence. There is no fear over going into a dressing room or a meeting room on that Monday.

“I don’t think anybody individually has been called out in a meeting which is great. It is a real brotherhood and everybody is a part of it.”


http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/simon-zebo-not-fazed-by-rassie-erasmus-exit-fears-447046.html
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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Sin é on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 9:21 am

SecretFly wrote:Good to see them all involved.  Are there contractual issues though in that kinda set up?  The Provincial guys are okay - working for the same company (IRFU) and all that...but O'Gara?  He's contractually tied to a French professional and private club - contracts allow for assisting other rugby union outfits off season?

ROG is doing his coaching badges in France - I'd imagine getting work experience elsewhere would be part of the training. I recall Fabien Pelous spending a week in Munster at one stage. Nearly all coaching staff spend a week or so every year elsewhere - usually downunder.

Anyway, according to the man himself:

His main duties will be skills and working with young number 10s.

“I’m luckily going on the first week of the summer tour to America. It’s really exciting and a great opportunity for me to learn from who I consider the best coach in world rugby in Joe Schmidt. I can’t wait,” O’Gara told the sportsJoe Live show.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/ronan-ogara-confirms-ireland-coaching-role-447055.html
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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by eirebilly on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 10:24 am

the-goon wrote:

Not a fan of our most successful ever coach, also Leinster's most successful coach, and the most successful coach of any provincial team, ever? Why? Do you hate success?
Also, I never claimed you personally never critcized a munster player ever, or for that matter jumped down the throat of a non-munster fan doing so, I don't think you have done so from memory. But that type of bahaviour is more prelevant of (but not exclusive to) Munster fans, on here anyway. Way to create a straw man of what I was saying....
I have read your posts and I have seen your dislike for our most successful ever coach in full display. I don't expect you to agree with every decision, but the fact that you are more than happy to claim/infer bias when you don't agree with a selection call, blame him for a loss, never credit him with a win or give him the benefit of the doubt does point to a lack objectivity in my eyes. Especially when you have defended far less successul coaches in EOS and Kidney. I remember Munster fans (#notall) on here in 2011-13 defending Kidney's every decision as the team plunged to new lows each year. I don't hear the same defence of Schmidt, yet he is far more successful. Strange.

Finally, what I said initially was tongue in cheek, and joke with an element of truth behind it. But seemed to hit a nerve...

He may very well be the best provincial or Irish coaches in your opinion but I can still not be a fan of his. To say I hate success is seriously a stupid comment to make. I think that he has a very one dimensional game plan. When it works, it works well but when not working there is no back up plan except to try an execute the plan better. He just seems far too conservative and it does appear that last minute injuries force his hand to select the best players in their best positions and as such approach games differently. Its then that Ireland seem to perform better. This is not a one off situation either, it has happened many times.

I had a lot of time for EOS, thought that he was one of Ireland better coaches, they called it the golden generation and I think EOS deserves a lot of credit for that.

As for Kidney, wonderful coach who I felt that could not adapt to the ELV's and as such tailed off towards the end of his tenure but he also had a seriously injury plagued side to contend with. Its very easy to single out the years 2011--2013 without acknowledging the previous years when Kidney was very successful...
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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by the-goon on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 11:25 am

Sin é wrote:
the-goon wrote:
Not a fan of our most successful ever coach, also Leinster's most successful coach, and the most successful coach of any provincial team, ever? Why? Do you hate success?

Also, I never claimed you personally never critcized a munster player ever, or for that matter jumped down the throat of a non-munster fan doing so, I don't think you have done so from memory. But that type of bahaviour is more prelevant of (but not exclusive to) Munster fans, on here anyway. Way to create a straw man of what I was saying....
I have read your posts and I have seen your dislike for our most successful ever coach in full display. I don't expect you to agree with every decision, but the fact that you are more than happy to claim/infer bias when you don't agree with a selection call, blame him for a loss, never credit him with a win or give him the benefit of the doubt does point to a lack objectivity in my eyes. Especially when you have defended far less successul coaches in EOS and Kidney. I remember Munster fans (#notall) on here in 2011-13 defending Kidney's every decision as the team plunged to new lows each year. I don't hear the same defence of Schmidt, yet he is far more successful. Strange.

Finally, what I said initially was tongue in cheek, and joke with an element of truth behind it. But seemed to hit a nerve...

I think Kidney has a similar club record to Schmidt - 2 H Cups, a couple of league titles etc. Kidney also has the Grand Slam over Schmidt and of course Schmidt has had some very poor losses in the 6Ns without an injury crisis which is what Kidney had to deal with.

My issue with Schmidt (and it has always been a criticism since Ireland) is that Ireland play an awful brand of rugby and he seems to suck the confidence out of players who are not allowed try anything.

I'm sick and tired of listening to the Munster players first comments about Erasmus usually being 'Rassie allows us to try stuff, and if it doesn't work out, don't worry' which seems to imply elsewhere that they are terrified of making a mistake.

Haha. Point well and truely proven.

At club level DK and JS had similar records, but JS was better, in three years he got to 6 finals and won 4 of them (2HC, 1CC, 1Magners + 2 final defeats). JS had aweful runs with injury as well, but blamed for not "growing the squad" in order to mitigate it (looking at you Erbilly). Rememeber the RWC and 2016 6 nations? But Kidney had an injury crisis, not his fault. The squad kidney had won 5 HC in 7 seasons as well.
Look at us in 2009, it was awful stuff, winning rugby but not pretty. Then it became awful losing rugby. Yet JS wins 2 titles, beats the ABs, gets us top seeds for the RWC, but it wasn't done pretty enough.

Finally, the standard between club and international is higher, mistakes are punished. Leinster under JS played the best rugby out of any team in Europe.

1 standard for Kidney, 1 for Joe. why?

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Golden on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 11:36 am

theslosty wrote:Joe is becoming an increasingly polarising figure on this site however the truth (as always) lies somewhere in the middle. Personally I'd rate his tenure so far at 7/10... results wise he's probably our most successful coach ever but he loses a point for the rather depressing style of rugby we play (although there is a hint of irony in the Munster criticisms, a team not exactly renowned for its attacking enterprise). His team selections can be frustratingly conservative to the extent it takes an injury for the form player to break in (see O'Mahony and Payne vs England).

What I've found particularly difficult as an Irish supporter is that Joe coached one of the most creative teams ever seen in Europe, so it's not like he's incapable of doing it. That Leinster side circa 2010-13 was for me the FC Barcelona of rugby.
Guns reckons Joe is just making the best of what we've got - that this backline doesn't square up to what we had in years past. Clearly this generation has no one in BOD's class and with the turgid stuff the provinces (minus Connacht) were serving up last year, I could accept this argument. However Leinster and Munster have been scoring for fun this season, and given they make up the bulk of the Irish side it's frustrating that this isn't translating to the Test arena. Perhaps the gap between European club rugby and Test rugby is greater than it used to be, in fairness to Joe.

Moving on, the induction of ROG is an interesting move. I haven't seen much of his punditry on RTE, did he ever comment much on Schmidt? Would be particularly interesting if he's made many criticisms in the way Shane Horgan did recently.

What did Horgan say? To be honest I have found him very reluctant to make any criticisms of Joe or our style of play in the past. If you listen to Second Captains he seems to be always on the defensive about Schmidt.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by the-goon on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 12:03 pm

eirebilly wrote:
the-goon wrote:

Not a fan of our most successful ever coach, also Leinster's most successful coach, and the most successful coach of any provincial team, ever? Why? Do you hate success?
Also, I never claimed you personally never critcized a munster player ever, or for that matter jumped down the throat of a non-munster fan doing so, I don't think you have done so from memory. But that type of bahaviour is more prelevant of (but not exclusive to) Munster fans, on here anyway. Way to create a straw man of what I was saying....
I have read your posts and I have seen your dislike for our most successful ever coach in full display. I don't expect you to agree with every decision, but the fact that you are more than happy to claim/infer bias when you don't agree with a selection call, blame him for a loss, never credit him with a win or give him the benefit of the doubt does point to a lack objectivity in my eyes. Especially when you have defended far less successul coaches in EOS and Kidney. I remember Munster fans (#notall) on here in 2011-13 defending Kidney's every decision as the team plunged to new lows each year. I don't hear the same defence of Schmidt, yet he is far more successful. Strange.

Finally, what I said initially was tongue in cheek, and joke with an element of truth behind it. But seemed to hit a nerve...

He may very well be the best provincial or Irish coaches in your opinion but I can still not be a fan of his. To say I hate success is seriously a stupid comment to make. I think that he has a very one dimensional game plan. When it works, it works well but when not working there is no back up plan except to try an execute the plan better. He just seems far too conservative and it does appear that last minute injuries force his hand to select the best players in their best positions and as such approach games differently. Its then that Ireland seem to perform better. This is not a one off situation either, it has happened many times.

I had a lot of time for EOS, thought that he was one of Ireland better coaches, they called it the golden generation and I think EOS deserves a lot of credit for that.

As for Kidney, wonderful coach who I felt that could not adapt to the ELV's and as such tailed off towards the end of his tenure but he also had a seriously injury plagued side to contend with. Its very easy to single out the years 2011--2013 without acknowledging the previous years when Kidney was very successful...

You have more time for a coach that won zlitch with some of the best players in a generation, but not our most successful? So, would rather lose pretty or win ugly? It seems from what you say it's the former, therefore my question regarding success is valid.
JS ain't perfect, but you cut him zero slack. ever. why?
No one was critizing DK in 2009-2010 cos we were winning, it was happy times. We played boring rugby under him, but he was a "wonderful" coach. Were you vocally saying in 2009, yeah we went unbeaten but it wasn't pretty enough? I doubt it, you just said he was a wonderful coach. Also, wouldn't a wonderful be able to adapt (to ELVs)? A criticism you levy at JS a lot.
It doesn't stack up.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by theslosty on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 12:13 pm

Golden wrote:
theslosty wrote:Moving on, the induction of ROG is an interesting move. I haven't seen much of his punditry on RTE, did he ever comment much on Schmidt? Would be particularly interesting if he's made many criticisms in the way Shane Horgan did recently.

What did Horgan say? To be honest I have found him very reluctant to make any criticisms of Joe or our style of play in the past. If you listen to Second Captains he seems to be always on the defensive about Schmidt.
What you say is probably true... but I think I recall Horgan labeling the selection of Tommy Bowe as a "nostalgia pick", a comment that seemed to rattle Schmidt.
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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by SecretFly on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 1:32 pm

Joe is the best. Just stop debating it and listen to a Munster legend: "“I’m luckily going on the first week of the summer tour to America. It’s really exciting and a great opportunity for me to learn from who I consider the best coach in world rugby in Joe Schmidt. I can’t wait,”

Thanks Sin.... we owe you one. OK That's how you close a debate.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 1:39 pm

eirebilly wrote:

He may very well be the best provincial or Irish coaches in your opinion but I can still not be a fan of his. To say I hate success is seriously a stupid comment to make. I think that he has a very one dimensional game plan. When it works, it works well but when not working there is no back up plan except to try an execute the plan better. He just seems far too conservative and it does appear that last minute injuries force his hand to select the best players in their best positions and as such approach games differently. Its then that Ireland seem to perform better. This is not a one off situation either, it has happened many times.

I had a lot of time for EOS, thought that he was one of Ireland better coaches, they called it the golden generation and I think EOS deserves a lot of credit for that.

As for Kidney, wonderful coach who I felt that could not adapt to the ELV's and as such tailed off towards the end of his tenure but he also had a seriously injury plagued side to contend with. Its very easy to single out the years 2011--2013 without acknowledging the previous years when Kidney was very successful...

You should write for Waterford Whispers News. Excellent satire.

EOS had his strengths as did Kidney but EOS couldnt get over the line despite having a really strong Ireland team and despite the 6 nations competition not being that strong at the time. By the time EOS and Kidney left we were going backwards at a rate of knots.

By contrast this Ireland team is still reaching new milestones. Some of your comments are quite fantastical to put it diplomatically.


Last edited by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 1:45 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by profitius on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 2:43 pm

theslosty wrote:
Golden wrote:
theslosty wrote:Moving on, the induction of ROG is an interesting move. I haven't seen much of his punditry on RTE, did he ever comment much on Schmidt? Would be particularly interesting if he's made many criticisms in the way Shane Horgan did recently.

What did Horgan say? To be honest I have found him very reluctant to make any criticisms of Joe or our style of play in the past. If you listen to Second Captains he seems to be always on the defensive about Schmidt.
What you say is probably true... but I think I recall Horgan labeling the selection of Tommy Bowe as a "nostalgia pick", a comment that seemed to rattle Schmidt.


Horgan was critical of Schmidt while ROG defended everything Schmidt did. One particular comment from ROG stood out. Shaggy was saying that Ireland are too predictable when they're on the opposition line. ROG said theres nothing else they can do. I was wondering at the time why ROG was defending everything Schmidt did. Its become clear now why that it.

In fairness, he can't be critical of Schmidt and at the same time be getting advice from him. The world of Irish coaching is small.
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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 2:47 pm

So you only take Rog at face value when it suits your agenda?

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by SecretFly on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 3:10 pm

So ROG hates Joe but is in the position of pretending to love him to get the Summer gig?

What a basterde that O'Gara lad is!  mad   
Always knew he was untrustworthy.  

He'll now try to undermine Joe when in Summer Camp; releasing secret footage of Joe being confused and disorientated on video playback mornings...and footage of Joe shouting at and sneering the Ulster fellas.....
...and then of course he'll do the EOSvGatland coup and say he's ready and willing to immediately take the reins when the IRFU find the courage to sack Joe.

I knew it!  Horgan is in on it too.  He only criticised Joe to give ROG the platform to publically defend Joe.  Traitors one and all!  It's an indigenous f**king coup!

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 3:41 pm

Though Rog was known for his straight talking

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 5:37 pm

The Joepologists need to wake up a little and get their head around the here and now rather than five years ago. Joe won the 6ns two years in a row with a settled team. Despite the disgruntled moaning from some other provinces he used mainly Leinster players who knew what he wanted. However this backfired in the World Cup when a couple of key injuries meant we were caught short and got a humping by Argentina. Ok so joe goes about creating more depth which to be fair looks like working out. Especially after the win against the ABs. In fact I was pretty confident we would kick on from there.

The reality is somewhere in between. The results in this years 6ns were completely underwhelming. The performances even more so. The concern is that the emperor has no clothes. That he seems incapable of developing his own team and a style of play that is sustainable and successful going forward. Personally I think it's great that he is the coach until the next World Cup. He should not be immune to criticism.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by the-goon on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 7:01 pm

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:The Joepologists need to wake up a little and get their head around the here and now rather than five years ago. Joe won the 6ns two years in a row with a settled team. Despite the disgruntled moaning from some other provinces he used mainly Leinster players who knew what he wanted. However this backfired in the World Cup when a couple of key injuries meant we were caught short and got a humping by Argentina. Ok so joe goes about creating more depth which to be fair looks like working out. Especially after the win against the ABs. In fact I was pretty confident we would kick on from there.

The reality is somewhere in between. The results in this years 6ns were completely underwhelming. The performances even more so. The concern is that the emperor has no clothes. That he seems incapable of developing his own team and a style of play that is sustainable and successful going forward. Personally I think it's great that he is the coach until the next World Cup. He should not be immune to criticism.

That assement is about fair. I'd argue that injuries were more than a couple in the RWC, but that is nit picking. The issue is that the standards being applied to EOS and Kidney are not being applied to Joe. We are expected to win with panache under Joe, but every failure under EOS and Kidney are excused time and again. This is the issue, Joe isn't perfect but he is the best coach we have ever had. So if you don't like him, you must hate the others.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 7:16 pm

Joepologists. Laugh

I read Schmidtforbrains recently as well which gave me a giggle.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by SecretFly on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 8:17 pm

EOS and Kidney have get-out-of-jail cards though.  

Indeed, Declan always had two.  In Declan's case if we had a good game, Declan was the master coach.  If the team had a bad game, Declan was no longer a coaching coach but merely a back-slapping motivational/inspiration coach - other assistant coaches did the practical stuff so he wasn't really to blame.  

So Declan had the non-coaching coach get-out-of-jail card and he also had the card EOS shared with him - he was Irish.  

I think sometimes Joe suffers because he's a Kiwi!  The story is Kiwis allegedly think a lot of themselves when it comes to rugby so the critic's attitude is: "Come on big boy, thought you were a Kiwi?  Where's the loaves and fishes trick?  Thought you could turn water into wine?  Lazarus is still dead.  We're waiting for the Kiwi miracles, mate."  I think there is a bit of that tribal goading in the criticisms of Schmidt.

Meanwhile, for me he's a bloody nice man - like Kidney was before him. And that's a big factor in any walk of life for me.  You can be a genius if you want to be but if you're a basterde with it, then f**k off - go be a genius elsewhere.  
He has his personal demons in life that he manages in the background and yet is always graceful and courteous to the media.  
And he's a bloody damn good coach.  

I'd like to see him let the players off the leash a bit more but that's me - I appreciate the game we play gets those grinding results and I appreciate we sometimes do need to play the way we do against truly impressive opponents (teams that can rip you apart if you try to match them in elan and panache.)  
I still think we have more leverage to be more free and creative with most of the teams we'd meet in a year though.  We are good enough to save the caution, caution, phase-contact-phase games for the really big hitters.  But Joe is where I want him to be, guiding us for one more stab at this damn World Cup that we keep slipping up in.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Thu 06 Apr 2017, 11:36 pm

Stop muddying the waters this is about Joe not kidney or fast Eddie. The 6ns results this year and last have been poor need to see a big improvement for the next two years and hopefully some advancement in the game plan.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by wolfball on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 2:25 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Stop muddying the waters this is about Joe not kidney or fast Eddie. The 6ns results this year and last have been poor need to see a big improvement for the next two years and hopefully some advancement in the game plan.

I am genuinely curious about views about our game plan (profitus and eirebilly said similar). We have changed our game plan many many times, for many different types of opposition, We went from 10 kicking everything to running everything to 9 kicking everything. We have gone from zero offloads to some offloads to barely any offloads. We have played very narrow, a bit less narrow and back to narrow again. We have used set piece as a weapon and but have also showed some counter attacking. We score LOTS of tries off first phase and off +6th phase, but rarely 2nd/3rd phase. Our discipline was poor, now it is well nigh the best in rugby. Our game changes constantly under Joe (though our mentality of one-off games does not but thats a different issue)

I don't get the idea that we are 1 dimensional at all. Its more we have not played the one dimension that everyone seems to want us to play, NZ and/or wild Wales or France on a flair day. So, my question is, are we actually too varied in our style, and the fact that we aren't a high flair team make it easy to state a simplistic criticism that we are one dimensional?

And my second question is, if Joe had not overseen a Harlem globetrotter styled Leinster, would this flair style even be something we would expect/criticise the lack of?

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 8:58 am

wolfball wrote:
Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Stop muddying the waters this is about Joe not kidney or fast Eddie. The 6ns results this year and last have been poor need to see a big improvement for the next two years and hopefully some advancement in the game plan.

I am genuinely curious about views about our game plan (profitus and eirebilly said similar). We have changed our game plan many many times, for many different types of opposition, We went from 10 kicking everything to running everything to 9 kicking everything. We have gone from zero offloads to some offloads to barely any offloads. We have played very narrow, a bit less narrow and back to narrow again. We have used set piece as a weapon and but have also showed some counter attacking. We score LOTS of tries off first phase and off +6th phase, but rarely 2nd/3rd phase. Our discipline was poor, now it is well nigh the best in rugby. Our game changes constantly under Joe (though our mentality of one-off games does not but thats a different issue)

I don't get the idea that we are 1 dimensional at all. Its more we have not played the one dimension that everyone seems to want us to play, NZ and/or wild Wales or France on a flair day. So, my question is, are we actually too varied in our style, and the fact that we aren't a high flair team make it easy to state a simplistic criticism that we are one dimensional?

And my second question is, if Joe had not overseen a Harlem globetrotter styled Leinster, would this flair style even be something we would expect/criticise the lack of?

100% agree wolfball. Last years six nations we ran almost every ball we had and kicked very little. This year we are mixing it up a lot more. The team changes all the time.

The one thing that doesn't change and the thing that is always rolled out as a stick to beat Schmidt is that our back play doesn't lead to tries as much as it could particularly in the opposition 22. We aren't scoring many first phase tries or really exciting tries.

It is possibly because we play quite a structured game. However, the structured approach does mean that we are a much harder side to beat, consistently more competitive and we are very rarely out of a game with 20 minutes to go.

Even out worst match under Schmidt v Argentina we were good enough to claw it back with 20 minutes to go before it unravelled again.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 10:00 am

Also I cant understand why the IRFU themselves don't get massive praise for the unbelievable job they are doing for Ireland rugby as a whole. There are three main international teams, Senior Ireland mens team, senior Ireland womens team and the Ireland under 20 mens side. We even have a sevens side now again.

All three of these sides have defeated New Zealand in the last three years. I repeat all three sides have defeated NZ. That would have been unthinkable 20 years ago. I also cant imagine the Ireland womens side suffering the same mistreatment as the Ireland womens football side.

The provincial sides are also very strong with Connacht as current pro 12 champions and Leinster and Munster in the Euro cup semis.

Yet there is still an awful amount of negativity and whinging about Ireland rugby. I cant help but thinking Ireland fans are quite spoiled in general.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by profitius on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 12:16 pm

wolfball wrote:
Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Stop muddying the waters this is about Joe not kidney or fast Eddie. The 6ns results this year and last have been poor need to see a big improvement for the next two years and hopefully some advancement in the game plan.

I am genuinely curious about views about our game plan (profitus and eirebilly said similar). We have changed our game plan many many times, for many different types of opposition, We went from 10 kicking everything to running everything to 9 kicking everything. We have gone from zero offloads to some offloads to barely any offloads. We have played very narrow, a bit less narrow and back to narrow again. We have used set piece as a weapon and but have also showed some counter attacking. We score LOTS of tries off first phase and off +6th phase, but rarely 2nd/3rd phase. Our discipline was poor, now it is well nigh the best in rugby. Our game changes constantly under Joe (though our mentality of one-off games does not but thats a different issue)

I don't get the idea that we are 1 dimensional at all. Its more we have not played the one dimension that everyone seems to want us to play, NZ and/or wild Wales or France on a flair day. So, my question is, are we actually too varied in our style, and the fact that we aren't a high flair team make it easy to state a simplistic criticism that we are one dimensional?

And my second question is, if Joe had not overseen a Harlem globetrotter styled Leinster, would this flair style even be something we would expect/criticise the lack of?


I see very little change. In the last 3 6 nations against England, France and Wales, we've scored 6 tries. Thats 6 tries in 9 matches against those 3!! The reason is simple. Teams know whats coming and know how to shut Ireland down.


The try scoring record is not surprising when you hear that Schmidt doesn't like offloading. The tactics are basically a low risk game and to keep the ball for long periods. The problem with that low risk game is it comes with a lack of tries. Rob Kearney at fullback is not very threatening. Everything gores through Sexton and every second attack involves a loop. SOB and Stander are being used as battering rams and being triple tackled all the time these days because teams know whats coming.


Although he is a good coach, Schmidt needs a change of attitude and let the team play a bit with more attack threats.
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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 12:25 pm

profitius wrote:


I see very little change. In the last 3 6 nations against England, France and Wales, we've scored 6 tries. Thats 6 tries in 9 matches against those 3!! The reason is simple. Teams know whats coming and know how to shut Ireland down.


The try scoring record is not surprising when you hear that Schmidt doesn't like offloading. The tactics are basically a low risk game and to keep the ball for long periods. The problem with that low risk game is it comes with a lack of tries. Rob Kearney at fullback is not very threatening. Everything gores through Sexton and every second attack involves a loop. SOB and Stander are being used as battering rams and being triple tackled all the time these days because teams know whats coming.


Although he is a good coach, Schmidt needs a change of attitude and let the team play a bit with more attack threats.

What you conveniently fail to mention is that in general those sides haven't scored many tries against us either. England haven't scored a try in Dublin with Joe Schmidt as manager for example. France themselves have only managed a few tries against us in the last 6 games or so whereas we have scored a lot more against them. We also tend to beat them in most games.

Wales are somewhat of a bogey team against us lately.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by SecretFly on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 1:05 pm

profitius wrote:


The try scoring record is not surprising when you hear that Schmidt doesn't like offloading. The tactics are basically a low risk game and to keep the ball for long periods. The problem with that low risk game is it comes with a lack of tries. Rob Kearney at fullback is not very threatening. Everything gores through Sexton and every second attack involves a loop. SOB and Stander are being used as battering rams and being triple tackled all the time these days because teams know whats coming.


Although he is a good coach, Schmidt needs a change of attitude and let the team play a bit with more attack threats.

OK

I still don't think enough people, Joe included, look at the implications of the gameplan we mostly bring with us.  Firstly, I emphasise mostly because I do know that we've often showed we can play it much more explosively and creatively.  

But the implications:
I've said above that I respect the idea that some teams are capable of cutting us to ribbons if our own style becomes loose enough to let them get rhythm on their prefered style.   So I understand that there is merit in the safely, safely approach.  
But the safely, safely approach is only relatively safe, as in order to operate it all players have to engage in what is a pretty furious, physical gameplan of stopping the opposition at all cost; aggressively contacting to win ball, aggressively contacting to maintain possession, aggressively contacting to make the incremental inroads in our heavy duty, forward dominated attack.  
Now in a series of games, in a series of high end games against top quality sides, in a series of games where holding out to the end of a group of games means so much in terms of results - our 'safe' game puts an immense burden on players to last the distance.  It's no secret why we begin to look pale mid-way through a competition like the WC for example.  Our games are pretty frequently described as some of the more brutal games of any contest we're in.  Our physicality is not for the faint hearted.

So we play a safe game?  
Well, preserving our best players as long as we can through important games is another version of safe.  

My opinion continues to be that a more creative offloading game not only gives us the variety that keeps sides on their toes about how to defend against us, it actively cuts down the minutes of high impact gameplay in an 80 minute game.  Avoiding trouble and contact cuts down the frequency of contact and impacts each player has to endure in a game.  It's simple mathematics.  

So through a series of games, in 6N or at a WC, attempting to creatively find space within games rather than always trying to blast holes with shuddering contact, would I feel allow our important players to last the distance and still be fresh enough for that high impact stuff when required against the super slick sides.  Variety for preservation not just for beautiful scores.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by profitius on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 2:23 pm

Spot on, Fly. Looking at Leinster last weekend it was refreshing to see SOB being used out wide and running at a stretched defence rather than the battering ram approach under Schmidt. Likewise Carbery took a lot of pressure off sexton and it ment Sexton wasn't hammered as much as he usually is. Thats just 2 examples.
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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Golden on Wed 12 Apr 2017, 1:12 pm

Has Coulsen's return been confirmed? He is alleged to have been involved in a r*** with two other rugby players. Obviously innocent until proven guilty but its awful to hear stories like this. Staying away from the case itself and only concerning rugby matters would he be allowed to play for Connacht next season presuming the case is ongoing? I assume like Jackson/Olding he will play until it goes to court.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/39576181


EDIT: Cant believe your not allowed to use that word on this site.... Anyway Im sure you can figure it out using the link.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Pete330v2 on Wed 12 Apr 2017, 1:43 pm

"On March 22 Coulson, Grice and Jammes were arrested and detained at a police station in Bordeaux while Chris Farrell, Dylan Hayes and Peter Kimlin were brought in for questioning.
It appears that Kimlin, 31, Farrell, 24, and Hayes, 23 have been cleared of any wrongdoing, but the other three have been charged and could face a maxium prison sentence of 20 years if found guilty, according to sport24.co.za."

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by marty2086 on Wed 12 Apr 2017, 1:48 pm

Golden wrote:Has Coulsen's return been confirmed? He is alleged to have been involved in a r*** with two other rugby players. Obviously innocent until proven guilty but its awful to hear stories like this. Staying away from the case itself and only concerning rugby matters would he be allowed to play for Connacht next season presuming the case is ongoing? I assume like Jackson/Olding he will play until it goes to court.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/39576181


EDIT: Cant believe your not allowed to use that word on this site.... Anyway Im sure you can figure it out using the link.

The article states 'The trio, who face a maximum sentence of 20 years in jail if they are found guilty, cannot leave France.', may need to seek permission and put up a bond to make the move happen

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 5:09 pm

http://www.the42.ie/donnacha-ryan-munster-mick-galwey-3351520-Apr2017/

Thoughts? I didn't realise he wanted to stay.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Don Alfonso on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 5:20 pm

"Ex-player loves team-mates and thinks they are brill" shocker.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 5:23 pm

True.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Don Alfonso on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 5:55 pm

I know I'll be pulled apart for this, especially on the forum's de facto Munster thread, but Ryan is a very good player who has been on excellent form recently. He's not an excellent player, in my opinion.

The IRFU don't want to spring for a central contract. Gats doesn't want him in NZ.

Either he's the most wronged player currently playing in Europe, or he's simply not as good as some of the fans think he is. He's an admirable, full-hearted warrior, easily fetishised as a no-nonsense, unassuming worker; an unsung hero. He's not an amazeballs rugby player.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by SecretFly on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 6:24 pm

He's a rugby player like they used to look in ye olde days, and that's good enough for me.  Hard as F**K, bone and gristle-wise.... not conventionally pretty either in features or in the brand of rugby he can get to.  But in battle.... I'd have him there in my unit, in my trench and I'd send him round the bend firs........................ oh, sorry, of course I'd lead from the front  Whistle  

The Chewbaca of Munster Rugby.  That Gats doesn't want him is also a plus.  After all, he didn't want BOD... Cool

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Don Alfonso on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 6:33 pm

Yep. Fetishised. The amount of projection about passion, rage, toughness etc because a fella has "resting bitch face" is a wonder to behold.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by SecretFly on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 6:38 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:Yep. Fetishised. The amount of projection about passion, rage, toughness etc because a fella has "resting bitch face" is a wonder to behold.

No really...people like he is are generally people like he is. He looks like one because he is one. Humans work on instinct. He is what he is.

put it another way... Gavin Henson. He is what he is and could never be anything else. And the fact is we know it because he's always looked it. He's the mouthy guy I'd tell to go round the corner first Whistle

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Don Alfonso on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 6:45 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Yep. Fetishised. The amount of projection about passion, rage, toughness etc because a fella has "resting bitch face" is a wonder to behold.

No really...people like he is are generally people like he is.  He looks like one because he is one.  Humans work on instinct.  He is what he is.

put it another way...  Gavin Henson.  He is what he is and could never be anything else.  And the fact is we know it because he's always looked it.   He's the mouthy guy I'd tell to go round the corner first Whistle

Well, whatever misconceptions you labour under, I do approve of the way you run your unit, Fly. Kudos.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 6:48 pm

The thing is, we do have a weakness in the second row so it would have been wise to keep him as much as we possibly could have.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Don Alfonso on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 6:51 pm

Yeah, agreed. But I don't think he deserves a central contract.

Serious question - was he worth the last one?

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 7:40 pm

Any opinions are valid so there'll be no savaging around here. On the other hand do you think Henderson is worth one based on recent performance or non performance. If you compare him to say a player like Paddy Johns (a real hard man) he doesn't even register. Potential versus actual. There's the conundrum

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Don Alfonso on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 8:26 pm

I've no interest in who is a "hard man".

Who do I think will be more important to Ireland's success over the next three years? Henderson. I have no doubt. Do I think Hendo had a good Six Nations, England game aside? No. Do I think he should be with the Lions? No. Did Ryan have a better Six Nations? Yes.

Do I think Ryan has put in any performances to rival some of Henderson's in the RWC, particularly against France? No. Do I think Henderson, along with every other Ulster forward is suffering because of the utter lack of fecks given by Allen, a poor coach at the best of times? Yes. Do I expect to see a radically improved Hendo under Gibbes? Yes.

Which one of them can I imagine still playing for Ireland after the next RWC? Henderson. Who do I think has more talent and a higher ceiling? Henderson.

I don't think central contracts should be a reward for stringing together some excellent performances. I think it's about "we can't afford to lose you." And I don't think you can say that of Ryan.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Don Alfonso on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 8:32 pm

And to be clear, potential aside, I think Henderson has put in performances Ryan couldn't -against France at the RWC and one of the games in SA.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by marty2086 on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 8:33 pm

Simple question is, if the fella doesn't want to go then why is he going?

If he wanted to stay that much he would have a lovely new Munster contract. We had Ruan Pienaar offered a truck load of money to up sticks and move to France and he stayed, only to get shafted but thats another story altogether.

Were his performances in the 6Ns his way of trying to get a big payday out of the IRFU?


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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 8:36 pm

Haven't seen much from Henderson lately to say we can't afford to lose him ( based on two games). Seen enough of him to think he is currently somewhere between being disinterested and a tub o lard. Still he might get excited about being picked for the british lions who knows

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by SecretFly on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 8:37 pm

marty2086 wrote:Simple question is, if the fella doesn't want to go then why is he going?

If he wanted to stay that much he would have a lovely new Munster contract. We had Ruan Pienaar offered a truck load of money to up sticks and move to France and he stayed, only to get shafted but thats another story altogether.

Were his performances in the 6Ns his way of trying to get a big payday out of the IRFU?


Maybe. Is that a sin? Sure doesn't Heaslip do that trick all the time Wink

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 8:38 pm

marty2086 wrote:Simple question is, if the fella doesn't want to go then why is he going?

If he wanted to stay that much he would have a lovely new Munster contract. We had Ruan Pienaar offered a truck load of money to up sticks and move to France and he stayed, only to get shafted but thats another story altogether.

Were his performances in the 6Ns his way of trying to get a big payday out of the IRFU?


Jeez you lads have some serious chips on shoulders.

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Re: Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2016-17

Post by marty2086 on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 8:39 pm

SecretFly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Simple question is, if the fella doesn't want to go then why is he going?

If he wanted to stay that much he would have a lovely new Munster contract. We had Ruan Pienaar offered a truck load of money to up sticks and move to France and he stayed, only to get shafted but thats another story altogether.

Were his performances in the 6Ns his way of trying to get a big payday out of the IRFU?


Maybe.  Is that a sin?  Sure doesn't Heaslip do that trick all the time Wink

Its not but then what Galwey is saying isn't completely true, it's more a case of he doesn't want to go as long as he is getting paid enough.

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