Frampton v Santa Cruz

First topic message reminder :

This one seems to be slipping under the radar a bit.

I haven't watched a lot of Santa Cruz but given his record, the weight jump and how Carl's previous US fight went this would look to be by far the biggest and hardest fight of his career.

What are people's thoughts on how this will go?

Can Frampton keep out of range and pick off a points win in New York or will the step to FW and class be too much?

Has he got enough power to trouble LSC?

If I was Frampton I wouldn't bother dealing with Hearn again, unless Hearn coughs up HUGE money!

marty2086 wrote:Selbys still with Hearn, it would depend where the fight was. Selby is looked after Hearn in the UK and Haymon in the US

Ah, forgot about that. I was thinking Selby had signed with Al Haymon (but forgot it was only outside the UK). Cyclone recently promoted Lee Haskins (with Sanigar Events) and so in my head it was an easy one to make.

Frampton did say post fight they have a good relationship with his promoters so makes me think they may eye a US fight

hazharrison wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:If you're going to hate a boxer, there are way more qualified candidates than Josh Warrington (humble kid making the most of what he's got and selling out arenas).

What he's got is the square root of sweet f*ck all in a box with a ribbon on it. He's got 5 stoppages in 19 fights and his opposition should theoretically get harder from this point on. All things being equal he should be fighting at the Leeds Arena...with the guy who overcharged him for two hotdogs

So what if he doesn't have a big punch - he's exciting enough to watch. Wayne McCullough didn't have a big punch either and I loved watching him back in the day.

Ok, Saturday was a bit of a soft touch but Warrington's been steadily working his way through the different levels. Jamie McDonnell took a similar route.

The Pocket Rocket would have given his left nut for the kind of audiences this knucklehead's getting. I just do not get what people are so excited about

So we're criticising fighters for creating a following these days? Most of the kids jumping about in the cheap seats are either his mates, kids he grew up with or kids he went to Leeds games with. There's also a thirst for sporting success down there due to the ailing fortunes of the football team. He's a popular working class lad who's popular enough to get people to part with their hard-earned cash. That's a good thing in my book. Not easy for fighters slogging round selling tickets to create a bit of a following. He's done ace.

No, I just don't think he's very good and certainly not worthy of the hype surrounding him

DAVE667 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:If you're going to hate a boxer, there are way more qualified candidates than Josh Warrington (humble kid making the most of what he's got and selling out arenas).

What he's got is the square root of sweet f*ck all in a box with a ribbon on it. He's got 5 stoppages in 19 fights and his opposition should theoretically get harder from this point on. All things being equal he should be fighting at the Leeds Arena...with the guy who overcharged him for two hotdogs

So what if he doesn't have a big punch - he's exciting enough to watch. Wayne McCullough didn't have a big punch either and I loved watching him back in the day.

Ok, Saturday was a bit of a soft touch but Warrington's been steadily working his way through the different levels. Jamie McDonnell took a similar route.

The Pocket Rocket would have given his left nut for the kind of audiences this knucklehead's getting. I just do not get what people are so excited about

So we're criticising fighters for creating a following these days? Most of the kids jumping about in the cheap seats are either his mates, kids he grew up with or kids he went to Leeds games with. There's also a thirst for sporting success down there due to the ailing fortunes of the football team. He's a popular working class lad who's popular enough to get people to part with their hard-earned cash. That's a good thing in my book. Not easy for fighters slogging round selling tickets to create a bit of a following. He's done ace.

No, I just don't think he's very good and certainly not worthy of the hype surrounding him

He will find his level soon. I guess he will make some decent money first, then fight for a title. He wouldn't beat any of the champs, but Selby might be his best bet.

Warrington is developing into a really good fighter I think. Really accurate puncher with fast hands, good combos and a very high workrate. Hes improving all the time. If the odds were nice I might actually be tempted on him upsetting Selby, who for me is the more overrated of the pair. I think he would be a really hard night work for Selby at the very least. I would expect a close fight.

AdamT wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:If you're going to hate a boxer, there are way more qualified candidates than Josh Warrington (humble kid making the most of what he's got and selling out arenas).

What he's got is the square root of sweet f*ck all in a box with a ribbon on it. He's got 5 stoppages in 19 fights and his opposition should theoretically get harder from this point on. All things being equal he should be fighting at the Leeds Arena...with the guy who overcharged him for two hotdogs

So what if he doesn't have a big punch - he's exciting enough to watch. Wayne McCullough didn't have a big punch either and I loved watching him back in the day.

Ok, Saturday was a bit of a soft touch but Warrington's been steadily working his way through the different levels. Jamie McDonnell took a similar route.

The Pocket Rocket would have given his left nut for the kind of audiences this knucklehead's getting. I just do not get what people are so excited about

So we're criticising fighters for creating a following these days? Most of the kids jumping about in the cheap seats are either his mates, kids he grew up with or kids he went to Leeds games with. There's also a thirst for sporting success down there due to the ailing fortunes of the football team. He's a popular working class lad who's popular enough to get people to part with their hard-earned cash. That's a good thing in my book. Not easy for fighters slogging round selling tickets to create a bit of a following. He's done ace.

No, I just don't think he's very good and certainly not worthy of the hype surrounding him

He will find his level soon. I guess he will make some decent money first, then fight for a title. He wouldn't beat any of the champs, but Selby might be his best bet.

Selby would embarrass him as would the other champions, all he has going for him is a good engine, he's not a particularly accurate contrary to other suggestions that he is; Amagasa had him punching thin air for large parts of their fight.

Interesting fact pointed out by David Haye yesterday, Shane McGuigan has yet to lose a fight as a trainer. That's not bad going

Haven't seen the fight yet as I'm still on holiday but chuffed that Frampton won. Been one of my favourite fighters for a long time now and, like others, thought he'd regressed whilst LSC had improved enough to beat him. Really glad I was wrong.

I'm from Wales but prefer Frampton to Selby. I think he'd win too. Without seeing the fight but just going on him beating LSC, I think that's enough to put Frampton favourite. I wouldn't have fancied Selby against LSC for similar reasons to Frampton i.e. styles. Was wrong there but just think Frampton is that bit better.
Selby may have another level in him although he has shown a few weaknesses since stepping up a level without fighting the top guys yet.
Frampton clear on points.

catchweight wrote:Warrington is developing into a really good fighter I think. Really accurate puncher with fast hands, good combos and a very high workrate. Hes improving all the time. If the odds were nice I might actually be tempted on him upsetting Selby, who for me is the more overrated of the pair. I think he would be a really hard night work for Selby at the very least. I would expect a close fight.

He's definitely making the most of what he has. This is a guy who felt his ceiling would be a British title fight. I also think he'd give Selby a good run for his money in about a year - especially at Elland Road.

I think Warrington is pretty talented and he is a by all accounts a very hard worker so he is improving all the time. I think hes a very sound boxer and looks like he will be getting better. Really good work rate, really good combinations and a nice tight defence. Its coming together nicely for him I think, although the lack of pop in his punches might stunt him at the highest level.

Selby would naturally begin as a favourite and has a solid headstart in experience. But I havent been as impressed with him as others have. I think his flashy style sees him a tad overrted. His defence seems leaky and he relies heavily on swivelling to avoid punches. Warrington with his high work rate and combinations could put him under a lot of pressure. At the moment Selby should win, but if I was getting something like 7/2 or 4/1 for my money on Warrington I would be happy to take a punt on that. Especially in Leeds. Its not an easy fight for Selby in my book.

catchweight wrote:I think Warrington is pretty talented and he is a by all accounts a very hard worker so he is improving all the time. I think hes a very sound boxer and looks like he will be getting better. Really good work rate, really good combinations and a nice tight defence. Its coming together nicely for him I think, although the lack of pop in his punches might stunt him at the highest level.

Selby would naturally begin as a favourite and has a solid headstart in experience. But I havent been as impressed with him as others have. I think his flashy style sees him a tad overrted. His defence seems leaky and he relies heavily on swivelling to avoid punches. Warrington with his high work rate and combinations could put him under a lot of pressure. At the moment Selby should win, but if I was getting something like 7/2 or 4/1 for my money on Warrington I would be happy to take a punt on that. Especially in Leeds. Its not an easy fight for Selby in my book.

He's a lovely little boxer but yeah, up in world class you usually need something that can separate you from everyone else. The way he has worked through the levels reminds me of Jamie McDonnell (Warrington looks up to him and uses him as a role model - they've trained together, too). McDonnell, though, has that freakish height going for him.

His lack of power will hinder him (though, his power does seem to be improving gradually). Had all the time in the world for Wayne McCullough but after he left bantam, he struggled to put a dent in anyone.

Selby is a little bit Naz like - in terms of his hands down, flashy moves. Naz always sttruggled with workrate (McCullough, Ingle, for example). I could quite easily see Warrington giving him a good go on a big night in Leeds. The longer he leaves it, the better for him. Needs to bed into fringe world class first.

I think there is talk of Frampton fighting Selby in December. Then Santa Cruz next. The wee man is not waiting around.

It's been confirmed that's there's a rematch clause in the contract that LSC can activate immediately. So any other option Frampton is exploring has the be agreed with LSC and his team. Will LSC take a risk that Frampton has another fights and loses?

Pedro147 wrote:It's been confirmed that's there's a rematch clause in the contract that LSC can activate immediately. So any other option Frampton is exploring has the be agreed with LSC and his team. Will LSC take a risk that Frampton has another fights and loses?

Well Santa Cruz next is a good option too. I would push for the fight to be in Belfast. He wins that fight imo.

hazharrison wrote:

catchweight wrote:I think Warrington is pretty talented and he is a by all accounts a very hard worker so he is improving all the time. I think hes a very sound boxer and looks like he will be getting better. Really good work rate, really good combinations and a nice tight defence. Its coming together nicely for him I think, although the lack of pop in his punches might stunt him at the highest level.

Selby would naturally begin as a favourite and has a solid headstart in experience. But I havent been as impressed with him as others have. I think his flashy style sees him a tad overrted. His defence seems leaky and he relies heavily on swivelling to avoid punches. Warrington with his high work rate and combinations could put him under a lot of pressure. At the moment Selby should win, but if I was getting something like 7/2 or 4/1 for my money on Warrington I would be happy to take a punt on that. Especially in Leeds. Its not an easy fight for Selby in my book.

He's a lovely little boxer but yeah, up in world class you usually need something that can separate you from everyone else. The way he has worked through the levels reminds me of Jamie McDonnell (Warrington looks up to him and uses him as a role model - they've trained together, too). McDonnell, though, has that freakish height going for him.

His lack of power will hinder him (though, his power does seem to be improving gradually). Had all the time in the world for Wayne McCullough but after he left bantam, he struggled to put a dent in anyone.

Selby is a little bit Naz like - in terms of his hands down, flashy moves. Naz always sttruggled with workrate (McCullough, Ingle, for example). I could quite easily see Warrington giving him a good go on a big night in Leeds. The longer he leaves it, the better for him. Needs to bed into fringe world class first.

Agree with pretty much all of these comments. I've missed warrington's last few fights, he doesn't look showy but this kind of dedicated all action but no pop style didn't hinder terry marsh or more recently mcdonnell from picking up a strap. Obviously, we need to see a step up in class first to see whether he can do the same.

Other than sky flogging him, I'm not sure I've seen him pitched as the second coming. At the moment he's doing a Henry Wharton ( to keep the Leeds connection), or dare I say it, Ricky Hatton... Milking a football fan base and fighting fodder. I understand where Dave is coming from, but it was Hatton's fans that got my goat in those days, not Hatton himself. It's a tough sport, warrington is earning a crust... but it's time to step up.

Selby is a classy little boxer, but I've long thought his leaky defence will be his undoing at the highest level... Warrington probably not the guy to test that but I certainly see him giving it a good go... It would be an entertaining fight I reckon.

AdamT wrote:

Pedro147 wrote:It's been confirmed that's there's a rematch clause in the contract that LSC can activate immediately. So any other option Frampton is exploring has the be agreed with LSC and his team. Will LSC take a risk that Frampton has another fights and loses?

Well Santa Cruz next is a good option too. I would push for the fight to be in Belfast. He wins that fight imo.

The story on the rematch clause is a little suspect, Framptons team claim no rematch clause yet an anonymous source who can't be named because of confidentiality related to the contract yet the Frampton team were more than willing to speak about the contract? Either they didn't read it or someones spinning a yarn

marty2086 wrote:

AdamT wrote:

Pedro147 wrote:It's been confirmed that's there's a rematch clause in the contract that LSC can activate immediately. So any other option Frampton is exploring has the be agreed with LSC and his team. Will LSC take a risk that Frampton has another fights and loses?

Well Santa Cruz next is a good option too. I would push for the fight to be in Belfast. He wins that fight imo.

The story on the rematch clause is a little suspect, Framptons team claim no rematch clause yet an anonymous source who can't be named because of confidentiality related to the contract yet the Frampton team were more than willing to speak about the contract? Either they didn't read it or someones spinning a yarn

Dan Rafael confirmed that there's 100% a rematch clause however Barry said different. Would be strange for there not to be a clause as it's automatic in most cases now involving championship fights. Suppose just gotta let it play out and see.

I read in on The Ring, they were the ones confirming it using a 'source'.

http://ringtv.craveonline.com/news/430903-there-is-a-rematch-clause-for-leo-santa-cruz-in-his-fight-with-carl-frampton

Seems strange that Barry would say there isn't one and as you say they are usually there as a contingency as much as anything.

Josh Warrington, I'd rather watch Josh Widdicombe boxing

i'm sure we all would Dave, especially in a catchweight with Dara O'Briain. What's your point?

Framps is in an amateur genius sandwich - Loma above, Rigo below, and as much as I love him I'd back both to beat him.

Would certainly like to see Loma come back down to wipe the smug smirk of Selby's face. Though I'd back Frampton to do the same tbh....

How do people feel about this?

Seeing as it was a voluntary defence against Frampton(Carl wasn't his mandatory,) and Leo offered to go to New York where Frampton had the crowd, would it be the honourable thing to do the rematch in LA?

Just a thought

Disagree that NYC was any major concession by LSC to Framps.

Carl was still the one travelling to another country to fight in front of a smaller audience and less partisan support.

Rematch (if there really is a clause) got to be in Belfast, and I wouldn't mind travelling for it!

Be a great atmosphere in LA in front of all those Mexican fans, a win over Santa Cruz in his own backyard would nail him on for fighter of the year imo were the fight  to happen before end of year obviously

But I think a great atmosphere in Belfast too, but wouldn't the fight generate more money in the states? And of course a top win in America over one of their own highly rated fighters always does good things for a fighter's career

TBH I don't think a Stateside win does much good unless you're headlining Vegas or MSQ.

If Framps gets a run of wins which, of say 5, include Quigg, LSC twice and Selby, he'll be a top dog regardless of where he's fought.

For one thing I'd like to see him go on a cup run now no gimmes, a good championship run is what the fans like and creates a legacy. Plus gimmes don't always work out how you want them if you're champion the opponent will come to fight the fight of his life

If I could wave a magic wand and have a wish in all honesty I'd love to see that fight in LA in front of a hugely partisan crowd. Just to see if Carl could pull it off. Would be one of the great British wins on American soil

But I think it'll be Belfast, LA would be worth two points to Santa

McGuigan isn't ruling LA out. Problem with Belfast is the lack of stadia. If they go with the national stadium they'll probably have to make a less arduous voluntary.

The alternative is an automatic LSC rematch in LA/Vegas.

Selby may need to be Manchester.

Why would they have to make a voluntary if they go with national stadium? Why can't they bring Leo over to Ireland?

I don't understand either how there's any confusion about the rematch clause. Either there is or there isn't. Surely it takes only about three minutes to check the contract:

http://www.boxingscene.com/frampton-vs-santa-cruz-there-actually-rematch-clause--107399

I think I prefer to see Selby fight Frampton next than Russell Jr.

Leo to fight a keep busy, I think Russell is a tricky style for him, but really need to see Russell in with another quality operator soon

The main thing is for them to all fight each other and not let what happened at super bantam where you had a pool of talent but only one match was made

Got to be honest a wee bit disappointed not LA but you can't really grumble at Vegas can you:

http://www.skysports.com/boxing/news/12183/10528207/carl-frampton-wants-his-rematch-with-leo-santa-cruz-in-december-but-not-in-la

Will it headline?

TopHat24/7 wrote:Will it headline?

Why wouldn't it? It headlined already and after the first fight it will be even bigger

I would guess so, Santa Cruz is big stuff out there they were expecting an easy night against Frampton they want to turn Leo into a big money spinner they will be desperate for revenge and no doubt will want the biggest stage possible to try to exact it !

Huge opportunity for Carl in a winnable fight for him

Im gutted that he probably won't get to fight in Belfast against LSC but think he deserves a MSG or big Vegas night

Would be awesome to have it in Belfast imagine the atmosphere but I guess it makes more money in Vegas but I'm only guessing at that

SSE/Odyssey is only 9k as he said in the article, to do more than that you have to go outdoors and in December that wont work

Vegas, you are looking at less than 20k for most places like the MGM

Most make their money from PPV though and that hurts the prospect of a Belfast fight too

marty2086 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Will it headline?

Why wouldn't it? It headlined already and after the first fight it will be even bigger

I hope it does to. But Vegas is a different kettle of fish to a secondary NYC venue. And they're the little guys, as unfair as that may be.

Someone else on here can probably list the last couple of times a match below lightweight headlined a Vegas card....??

Barclays isn't a secondary venue though, its a few years old and aiming to surpass MSG if not already, its already taken teams away from it and big events. It'll take a long time to gain the status, history and mystic of MSG though

Its probably 10 years since anything below lightweight headlined Vegas but how many fights have been at this kind of level?

The Irish factor might play into it, just look at how McGregor did it for the UFC

It is not MSG, therefore it is secondary, no matter how shiny the new loos are.

Mayweather's two Castillo fights at 135 were both Vegas and, I think, headlined (2002). For sub-135 then Floyd against Corrales at 130 was also Vegas, no idea if headlined.

Some of Manny's SFW wins in 2006/07 may have been more recent Vegas headlines.

But that's all I can come up with, a decade or more as you say, mini-headliners in Vegas are few and far between.

TopHat24/7 wrote:It is not MSG, therefore it is secondary, no matter how shiny the new loos are.

Mayweather's two Castillo fights at 135 were both Vegas and, I think, headlined (2002). For sub-135 then Floyd against Corrales at 130 was also Vegas, no idea if headlined.

Some of Manny's SFW wins in 2006/07 may have been more recent Vegas headlines.

But that's all I can come up with, a decade or more as you say, mini-headliners in Vegas are few and far between.

Barrera regularly headlined in Vegas (Hamed, Juarez, Morales, Tapia etc.) as did Morales (and further back De la Hoya). The Johnny Tapia vs Paulie Ayala fights headlined at the Mandalay Bay.

Rare, though, for the smaller guys to headline somewhere like the MGM.

So we are looking at 10 years+ then??