England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

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England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 10:21 am

First topic message reminder :

England 1 Alastair Cook (capt), 2 Alex Hales, 3 Joe Root, 4 James Vince, 5 Gary Ballance, 6 Jonny Bairstow (wk), 7 Moeen Ali, 8 Chris Woakes, 9 Stuart Broad, 10 Steven Finn, 11 James Anderson

Pakistan 1 Mohammad Hafeez, 2 Sami Aslam, 3 Azhar Ali, 4 Younis Khan, 5 Misbah-ul-Haq (capt), 6 Asad Shafiq, 7 Sarfraz Ahmed (wk), 8 Yasir Shah, Sohail Khan, 10 Mohammad Amir, 11 Rahat Ali


Last edited by VTR on Wed 03 Aug 2016, 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by robbo277 on Thu 04 Aug 2016, 10:11 pm

England will be looking to get Pakistan out for under 400 from here. They've got a hard ball and got rid of Azhar Ali. They'll have to stick to their task better, but with Pakistan's tail taking 140-7 would represent a good, but not impossible effort.

England will then have to bat a lot better than the first dig, but a good couple of partnerships could wipe that lead out and a couple more would set Pakistan a stiff target in the fourth innings. But England will need to win the next few sessions.

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 1:42 am

Well that was a splendid day for Pakistan ...must admit I was surprised they were able to maintain such discipline over the course of the whole day. I didn't watch right to the end ; but I was impressed by the way in which the new boy Aslam steadfastly refused to be drawn into anything rash , and gradually wore down the England bowlers. Azhar had a bit of luck , but he too played steadily - and apparently accelerated in the last session - together they have batted their side into a fairly strong position.
I see a bit of criticism of the England bowlers flying around in some places ; and I guess that goes with the scoreboard. But from what I saw I'm more inclined to give credit to the batsmen - I thought Anderson and Broad bowled very well together in the after lunch session, and might well have had some success (perhaps had that slip catch been held we might be looking at a very different story ?) and both Finn and Woakes had their moments later on ; though I did feel there could have been a bit more concentration on one side of the wicket - were a few too many balls easily played to leg for my taste. Moeen was expensive , of course ; though he actually came very close to breaking through a couple of times : he is what he is ; and until someone better comes along that is what we have to expect from him in these circumstances.
Pitch remained pretty placid - I had expected it to be a bit quicker ; but it was generally what you'd expect from day two at Edgbaston. Not a road ; but one on which sound batting is rewarded and the bowlers have to work for their wickets. On another day it might have seen 270/6 ... just as more care on day one might have seen England to something closer to 350. Pakistan have just played the better cricket all round so far and well done them.

So are England out of it ? Wouldn't say that yet...I suspect they needed at least one more wicket yesterday ; but the ball is still new and a couple of scalps early tomorrow would still leave them with prospects of keeping the Pakistan lead to under 100 - which I think they need to do to retain any serious winning chance.
As you'd think the pitch will likely remain true for batting , even a larger deficit would not necessarily condemn them to defeat either ; but you'd certainly rather be in Pakistan's shoes right now . A lot of concentration required when England bat again : essentially what they will need to do is match whatever Pakistan score in this innings. And ,depending how much that actually is , that should set things up for a chance of a win or a draw at worst.

Easier said than done , perhaps ; but I retain hope. If England truly want to become a great team this is the sort of situation they need to learn to come back from...

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 7:31 am

alfie wrote:Well that was a splendid day for Pakistan ...must admit I was surprised they were able to maintain such discipline over the course of the whole day.  I didn't watch right to the end ; but I was impressed by the way in which the new boy Aslam steadfastly refused to be drawn into anything rash , and gradually wore down the England bowlers. Azhar had a bit of luck , but he too played steadily - and apparently accelerated in the last session - together they have batted their side into a fairly strong position.
I see a bit of criticism of the England bowlers flying around in some places ; and I guess that goes with the scoreboard. But from what I saw I'm more inclined to give credit to the batsmen - I thought Anderson and Broad bowled very well together in the after lunch session, and might well have had some success (perhaps had that slip catch been held we might be looking at a very different story ?) and both Finn and Woakes had their moments later on ; though I did feel there could have been a bit more concentration on one side of the wicket - were a few too many balls easily played to leg for my taste.  Moeen was expensive , of course ; though he actually came very close to breaking through a couple of times : he is what he is ; and until someone better comes along that is what we have to expect from him in these circumstances.
Pitch remained pretty placid - I had expected it to be a bit quicker ; but it was generally what you'd expect from day two at Edgbaston.  Not a road ; but one on which sound batting is rewarded and the bowlers have to work for their wickets. On another day it might have seen 270/6 ... just as more care on day one might have seen England to something closer to 350.  Pakistan have just played the better cricket all round so far and well done them.

So are England out of it ? Wouldn't say that yet...I suspect they needed at least one more wicket yesterday ; but the ball is still new and a couple of scalps early tomorrow would still leave them with prospects of keeping the Pakistan lead to under 100 - which I think they need to do to retain any serious winning chance.
As you'd think the pitch will likely remain true for batting , even a larger deficit would not necessarily condemn them to defeat either ; but you'd certainly rather be in Pakistan's shoes right now .  A lot of concentration required when England bat again : essentially what they will need to do is match whatever Pakistan score in this innings.  And ,depending how much that actually is , that should set things up for a chance of a win or a draw at worst.

Easier said than done , perhaps ; but I retain hope.  If England truly want to become a great team this is the sort of situation they need to learn to come back from...

Hi Alfie - yes, Pakistan have performed the better and deserve credit for that. They have played the long game. In contrast to our innings, mainly steady and continued batting with little unnecessary rushing. Feel the use of their spinner to rest and rotate the seamers on day one was also effective, timely and well judged; don't believe that Misbah and Shah have received sufficient recognition of that.

My preference has been to be in Pakistan's shoes since the first evening although I did state then and yesterday lunchtime - to the already near despondent VTR Wink - that it wasn't too late to turn things around. Do I still maintain that? Well, yes but it will obviously get more difficult by every run that Pakistan take the lead. 100 does seem to be the magic psychological number. I'm sure England would settle for keeping the lead to just a tiny bit under that. I also think 100 isn't too far off the sort of lead that Pakistan would settle for at this stage - maybe a bit more, say, 120.

Yes again, if England truly want to become a great team this is the sort of situation they need to learn to come back from. There again, great teams don't get themselves in this sort of pickle too often. In line with my earlier comments, I'll let this Test play out before picking my team for the next one. However, there will need to be a vast improvement for me to go with an unchanged eleven.

Not around today. Off to Lord's for day two of Middlesex v Surrey. Wonder if that might influence my future selections. Very Happy




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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 8:28 am

Well I am pretty despondent, we are in a tough situation here and I feel we should be beating Pakistan at home. They are a decent side, but if our batsmen showed them a bit of respect and more discipline then it shouldn't really be close in my view.

I thought Lord's was the wake up call and we saw the improvement in the last Test and would go on to dominate the series, but as it is some time over the weekend we could be contemplating having to win the last game just to draw the series - a series win or draw would be a fantastic result for Pakistan

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by Duty281 on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 8:51 am

Good play yesterday by Aslam and Azhar, but you can bet a collapse is on here as Pakistan foolishly attempt to get quick runs.

All out for 346, I reckon. England shaken out of their complacency in the process.

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 11:34 am

Not really happening for England. I think we need to start thinking about how many Pakistan will declare ahead on, and whether we will be good enough to bat the 5 sessions needed for a draw rather than restricting the lead to anything workable

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 11:34 am

Ha, wicket as I typed that, the jinx worked! Still a long way to go to close this innings out, and a quickfire 50 would really hurt at this stage

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 11:44 am

Was gonna say Sarfraz holds the key for Pakistan here - if he gets going he can take this away from England very quickly
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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 11:44 am

Very timely wicket for England. They need to get rid of either Mizzy or Shafiq cheaply, or they could still be looking at a 100-150 run deficit.

Whatever happens they will still require a much more disciplined batting effort in the 2nd innings.
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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 12:18 pm

Another wicket, as Broad finally gets off the mark for the innings. England are slowly coming back into it....

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 12:45 pm

Just as well Pakistan dont have much in their tail, theres a good chance of keeping the lead under control at least.

Even so its still a bit limp form Englands bowlers. Ali really is going to have toi pull his finger out in the 4th innings

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 1:03 pm

This is getting away from England a bit - Moeen bowling like a drain

I am not going to crucify him for that - as has been said earlier he is what he is, just this isn't really a situation suited to him where we can scarcely afford gifting boundaries

I expect it will be back to rotating the pacers after lunch

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 1:50 pm

VTR wrote:This is getting away from England a bit - Moeen bowling like a drain

I am not going to crucify him for that - as has been said earlier he is what he is, just this isn't really a situation suited to him where we can scarcely afford gifting boundaries

I expect it will be back to rotating the pacers after lunch

Right Im not goign to argue against his inclussion , it was on aballance the coirrect call fo rthis game base don his better batting in the absence of Stokes and his improved performqance in the last test.

But getting a better lead spinner is an obvious area where England could improve. Hes neither cheap nor does he have a good strike rate (despite some of the non fact backed statements made by people on here).

Thats a bigger issue than just this game and this innings though, you can look at any of the England bowlers and say they needed ot do better. Theres 4 seamers, and they have only taken 4 wickets with 2 new balls between them. Theyve had favourable conditions, and in Finns case was specifically sleected because the ground should suit him.

As a unit the bowling has been sub par, so whilst I will endlessly repeat my reservations about Ali as a lead spinner Im not going to lay the blame for this limp performace solely on him

Oakistans improved attitude towards playing cricket since Misbah took charge also needs mention here. They dont have a great deal more quality than when they last toured, what they do have is a side focussed on winning cricket games. Coming back from the disaster of the last test shows real charachter, so hats off to them. They are undoubtably the real deal. A good side with batsmen and bowlers who can play. All they lack is a bit of batting in the tail.

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:01 pm

Just got in to find pretty much what I expected/ feared : England are still that one wicket behind where they need to be to stay in the game.
Not dead yet ; but Pakistan will be looking for another hundred plus from here ; and that would give them something of a stranglehold.
England need (a)to break this stand and (b) to then demolish the tail. But the last few minutes watching tells me that these two batsmen are feeling pretty comfortable...

Need Trebell with his mastery of the jinx ...

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:03 pm

Looks like this is the partnership that will finally take the game away from England, barring some huge performances with the bat which I can't see being easy to deliver as Yasir will come into the game more

I agree with your points Gooseberry. I suppose England are not the finished article with big question marks over four or five places if you include wicket keeping still being up for debate (which I would)

I think we miss Stokes badly, we look a better team when he is involved even if he isn't scoring hundreds or taking 5 fors

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:04 pm

...or a Jimmy special Yahoo

Misbah gone...

Hope springs.

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:05 pm

alfie wrote:

Need Trebell with his mastery of the jinx ...

Don't worry, I've got 2 wickets so far today Smile

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:09 pm

We will now see what thePakistan tail can muster : need to throw everything at them because this is a chance to get back into the game.

And so nearly another one ! Just over slips...

Anderson looking dangerous here but he will need some help at the other end. Next half hour could be big.

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:11 pm

Pakistan's tail hasn't been all that bad this series - eked out vital runs at Lords to take the target beyond England, and probably batted better than most of the top 6 in the last Test. If they help add 50 or 60 here then England will be miles behind

England's 9/10/11 is probably about the same, given Broad is a walking wicket nowadays

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:15 pm

VTR wrote:
alfie wrote:

Need Trebell with his mastery of the jinx ...

Don't worry, I've got 2 wickets so far today Smile

I salute your efforts then ; keep up the good work OK

But Trebs is The Master

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:17 pm

Well I've just talked up Pakistan's tail - I'm trying to cover the last few wickets with a collective jinx as I have to head out in a minute!

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:20 pm

Another one gone...but no. Outside impact saves him.

Bit lucky. Third umpire wasted a lot of time there messing about looking for a clearly nonexistent edge ...

Now a run out ...out !

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:22 pm

Second run out of the innings, is Inzaman on the coaching staff by any chance?

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:23 pm

VTR wrote:Well I've just talked up Pakistan's tail - I'm trying to cover the last few wickets with a collective jinx as I have to head out in a minute!

And you got another one ! Well done clap

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:24 pm

Actually seems he is the chief selector - he will be purring

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:25 pm

I don't think I can really claim the Pakistan lower order, they have already jinxed themselves by not being very good at batting!

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:27 pm

That was good fielding ...and the oft-criticized Bairstow should get credit there too : neatly done , breaking the stumps with his arm with ball in hand as he had no time to bring the ball back -smart work.

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:30 pm

And now a good review from England ! Amir plumb lbw and eight gone....
Keep up the good work , VTR Smile

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:33 pm

Anderson off for following through on the pitch. Jeez

That said Woakes has carrid the England attack for pretty much the entire series so noone will really notice hes gone.

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:35 pm

Lucky that didn't happen earlier - Woakes/Broad/Finn should be able to wrap the innings up now, I'd be very concerned if not

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:40 pm

And just when all was going well an over-fussy umpire buts in to rule Anderson out of the attack for touching the protected area with about an inch of heel . I know he cuts it close ; but I'm not sure he's the only one. Perhaps chipping the umpires yesterday might have got them a little offside Smile
Finn better get it right quick.

I guess Jimmy was only an over or two away from a rest anyway...but that might have been enough.

Sarfraz will be looking to throw the bat now. Important runs...

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:43 pm

Did he get binned in SA as well? Is this a deliberate thing to create rough (Ali wouldnt be bowling into that anyway woudl he?) or is he just cutting his line too much?

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:45 pm

VTR wrote:Lucky that didn't happen earlier - Woakes/Broad/Finn should be able to wrap the innings up now, I'd be very concerned if not

You'd hope so. But Woakes has been bowling for a while now and I don't really trust Finn. Really want to nip the last two out cheaply - the lead is already quite substantial...

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:45 pm

Good fightback by England to claim 5 wickets for 110 runs or so. Still looks like they will have a deficit of 100 or so to make up, so a really solid start required for their 2nd innings.

Shame about Jimmy but I think the umpires were getting worried he might headbutt one of them or something. He's been in a bad mood all day.
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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:49 pm

Think Broad should be bowling over Finn

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:54 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Did he get binned in SA as well? Is this a deliberate thing to create rough (Ali wouldnt be bowling into that anyway woudl he?)  or is he just cutting his line too much?

Yes he did . I'm sure it isn't deliberate , as it is quite a distraction for him and probably helps the opponents more than England ...he actually had trouble with this issue as far back as his first series against SA in 2003 : in fact I think that was one of the reasons the coaches were trying to modify his action ; though it seemed to stop happening for a few years so I am not sure quite why it has come back to haunt him lately.

Broad with number nine...


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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:58 pm

Rahat the failed night watchman in a bit later today Smile

Bring up the short leg fieldsman...



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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 3:08 pm

Would Pakistan be better declaring here? Have a decent dart at England before tea?

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 3:18 pm

VTR wrote:Would Pakistan be better declaring here? Have a decent dart at England before tea?

Think they'd rather eke out every run they can get. Another twenty might be quite handy ...psychologically as well as in hard figures.

Finn needs to get one in the right spot to the rabbit...nearly !

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 3:24 pm

alfie wrote:
VTR wrote:Would Pakistan be better declaring here? Have a decent dart at England before tea?

Think they'd rather eke out every run they can get.  Another twenty might be quite handy ...psychologically as well as in hard figures.

Finn needs to get one in the right spot to the rabbit...nearly !

Theyd want to hold out for at least one more Ali over

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 3:25 pm

Finn needs to be taken off. Get Woakes back on, he might make them play rather than spearing every ball down the leg side

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 3:29 pm

100 run lead is up - more than handy

Just shows if England had even got to 350, as they probably should have, and bowled a bit better yesterday they wouldn't be in this mess. That drop off Azhar Ali looks very costly

I think its going to be over to Cook and Root as usual to get a big hundred to give us something to bowl at. I would be absolutely amazed if Hales and Vince make more than 50 between them

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 3:30 pm

Dropped catch ! Pakistan have out-caught England in this match so far : may end up being decisive.

Cook unhappy with that ...as is poor Finn !

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 3:31 pm

Oh dear, a drop off Finn now. England so sloppy in this match, its been pretty painful to follow

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 3:37 pm

Frustrating last wicket stand....ah . Ended now...

Broad finishes it at 103 ahead.

Sarfraz did a good job. But I think England have pulled it back well today : could easily have been looking at 150 or more . Will need a good second innings ; but if they can bat well all results are still possible.

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by VTR on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 3:40 pm

103 is a handy lead, but 150-200 looked more likely and there isn't really much coming back from that (though England have done it before)

England just need to bat and bat, the scores would be around level tonight so Pakistan will get a fresh go in the morning. Really tricky for England, 4 or more down tonight and I would suggest its all over

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by alfie on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 4:05 pm

VTR wrote:103 is a handy lead, but 150-200 looked more likely and there isn't really much coming back from that (though England have done it before)

England just need to bat and bat, the scores would be around level tonight so Pakistan will get a fresh go in the morning. Really tricky for England, 4 or more down tonight and I would suggest its all over

Certainly wouldn't want to lose too many tonight. But ultimately it is about whether they can get a score of 350 plus ; which would see us somewhere in the last session tomorrow. ( That would still leave a very gettable target for Pakistan so obviously they'd prefer over 400. ) But I think it would also give England a chance bowling last.
If they bat longer - say into day five - then they'll be safe but the draw will be the likely result. If I can design a scenario I'd like England to be bowled out about half an hour before stumps tomorrow with a lead of 320...is that asking too much , I wonder Smile

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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 4:55 pm

Pakistan bowling not causing too many alarms for Cook and Hales. Decent start for England. Pitch still looking fairly benign.



Just watch this cause a wicket! Whistle
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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 5:00 pm

Funny how Cook seems to have been the more aggressive of the pair lately.

A cunning plan with Hales under strict instructions to be patient and get a good look-in before he starts playing any flashy shots?
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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 05 Aug 2016, 5:14 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:Funny how Cook seems to have been the more aggressive of the pair lately.

A cunning plan with Hales under strict instructions to be patient and get a good look-in before he starts playing any flashy shots?

Hales always takes a while to get himself in before dashing in ODI's, and has never really been a huge dasher in first class cricket
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Re: England vs Pakistan 3rd Test, Edgbaston

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