Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

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Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Sin é on Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:54 pm

Venues announced and both Govs underwriting cost.


http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/government-to-underwrite-320m-in-bid-for-2023-rugby-world-cup-414609.html


Croke Park, The Aviva stadium, RDS in Dublin; (3)
Casement Park and Kingspan Stadium in Belfast (2)
Pairc Uí Chaoimh in Cork;

These include Croke Park, the Aviva Stadium and the RDS in Dublin;
Casement Park and Kingspan Stadium in Belfast;
Pairc Uí Chaoimh in Cork;
Thomond Park, Limerick;
Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney;
Pearse Stadium, Galway;
McHale Park in Castlebar;
Nowlan Park, Kilkenny;
and Celtic Park in Derry.

Great to see how evenly spread around the island (Derry & Kilkenny for example).

The operational costs for redeveloping some of these venues and bringing them up to standards and sizes for the tournament is estimated to cost in the region of €60m.

I think we have a good chance.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Pot Hale on Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:52 pm

That's in line with the list of venues I thought would be adopted. Nowlan Park was the obvious hole in the initial list published with nothing in the south-east. But it needs a serious face-lift.

Casement Park still hasn't cleared all its planning hurdles yet, but hopefully they're done by the end of the year.

Croke Park 83,000
Lansdowne Road 51,000
Parc Ui Chaoimh 45,000
McHale Park 45,000
Fitzgerald 43,000
Casement Park 40,000
Pearse Stadium 26,000
Thomond Park 25,000
Nowlan Park 25,000
RDS (Laya Arena apparently in a new sponsorship deal with Leinster/RDS) 21,000
Ravenhill 18,000
Celtic Park 16/17,000

440,000 total capacity which compares well with previous tourneys.
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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by LordDowlais on Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:20 pm

Once again UK money is to be used to subsidise Irish rugby. Rolling Eyes

It will cost the UK government €48M for Ireland to do this. Look I am all for Ireland hosting a WC. I would support it to the hilt, and I would travel to watch games there, BUT, and this is where it gets me, it's Irelands WC, so they should take it lock stock and barrel.

Most of those GAA stadiums in Northern Ireland are very dated to say the least, why should the British tax payer pay for the IRFU to get a WC ?

Also, shouldn't the IRFU be sorting out the financial mess Munster are in at the moment, not bidding for world cups ?

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:25 pm

Because N Ireland are part of the UK.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Senlac on Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because N Ireland are part of the UK.

The World Cup is 7 years away though...

*lobs grenade* Run
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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by LordDowlais on Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because N Ireland are part of the UK.

So it is not an ALL Ireland WC then ? It is an Ireland and UK WC ?


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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:40 pm

You do know N Ireland is in the UK?

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:42 pm

Senlac wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Because N Ireland are part of the UK.

The World Cup is 7 years away though...

*lobs grenade* Run

Yeah never say never after turkeys voted for xmas recently!

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by LordDowlais on Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You do know N Ireland is in the UK?

Yes. But the rugby is run by the IRFU.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:47 pm

So what?

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Sin é on Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:55 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Once again UK money is to be used to subsidise Irish rugby. Rolling Eyes

It will cost the UK government €48M for Ireland to do this. Look I am all for Ireland hosting a WC. I would support it to the hilt, and I would travel to watch games there, BUT, and this is where it gets me, it's Irelands WC, so they should take it lock stock and barrel.

Most of those GAA stadiums in Northern Ireland are very dated to say the least, why should the British tax payer pay for the IRFU to get a WC ?

Also, shouldn't the IRFU be sorting out the financial mess Munster are in at the moment, not bidding for world cups ?

Expenditure for the tournament will be 85% guaranteed by Dublin and 15% by the North’s administration.

However, Government sources say they expect that most of the funds will be recouped from the tournament

It might not cost anything yet!

There are 2 GAA stadiums being used in NI - Casement is being redeveloped anyway and Croke Park GAA (based in Dublin) is putting up 15m to help with redevelopment. I'd imagine the stadium in Derry probably needs to some work on it, but they have been badly neglected up north for some time now.


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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Pot Hale on Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Once again UK money is to be used to subsidise Irish rugby. Rolling Eyes

It will cost the UK government €48M for Ireland to do this. Look I am all for Ireland hosting a WC. I would support it to the hilt, and I would travel to watch games there, BUT, and this is where it gets me, it's Irelands WC, so they should take it lock stock and barrel.

Most of those GAA stadiums in Northern Ireland are very dated to say the least, why should the British tax payer pay for the IRFU to get a WC ?

Also, shouldn't the IRFU be sorting out the financial mess Munster are in at the moment, not bidding for world cups ?

Astonishing, just astonishing the lack of knowledge.


Last edited by Pot Hale on Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Irish Londoner on Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Once again UK money is to be used to subsidise Irish rugby. Rolling Eyes

No Northern Ireland's money is being used to subsidise Irish Rugby just like Welsh Assembly money subsidises sport in Wales.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Pot Hale on Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:17 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Once again UK money is to be used to subsidise Irish rugby. Rolling Eyes

No Northern Ireland's money is being used to subsidise Irish Rugby just like Welsh Assembly money subsidises sport in Wales.

How is it subsidising Irish Rugby?
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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Irish Londoner on Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:13 am

Pot Hale wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Once again UK money is to be used to subsidise Irish rugby. Rolling Eyes

No Northern Ireland's money is being used to subsidise Irish Rugby just like Welsh Assembly money subsidises sport in Wales.

How is it subsidising Irish Rugby?

It's a response to LD's comment that it's UK money, it's not UK money it's NI money, to spend as they see fit.
The business case would be "There's going to be a rugby world cup in Ireland, if we contribute some funding to it (and bear in mind in the political context of Northern Ireland IRFU are a cross border body) then we will get some of the games.
If we get games this will bring overseas visitors, worldwide media coverage, additional inward investment and an economic boost to Derry and Belfast (again in local context Derry being very much the Swansea to Belfast's Cardiff) and of course there is likely to be much more interest in rugby at all levels.

As Kevin Bacon says "it's no brainer".

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by BamBam on Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:34 am

LordDowlais wrote:Once again UK money is to be used to subsidise Irish rugby. Rolling Eyes


Probably like English money being used to subsidise the whole existence of Wales

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by TrailApe on Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:40 am

I would love to go to a RWC in Ireland.

It would be a fantastic experience - I could corner a unsuspecting Irishperson and bore them rigid about the word 'craic' actually being an English word that had been borrowed into Irish then re-borrowed into English using the Irish speliing.

Think of the times I could do that - I can actually envisage at this minute the look in their eyes - initial puzzlement, then denial then sheer terror as I drone on.

Brilliant!


Apart from that absolute wizard wheeze it would also have other major plusses - although they want to sort out their Ale - current offerings are a bit icky.
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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Hazel Sapling on Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:50 am

English money subsidises the rest of the UK. Back when the North Sea was younger (pre 2002) and pumping 2 million barrels a day, Scotland was probably subsidising the rest of the UK (not by much as people expect because the Southern and parts of the Central North Sea may be English). The UK parliament really screwed up with the Barnett formula. Only ever meant to be temporary.

Anyway on rugby, it looks like a good proposal although I would like to see how ticket prices are affected. I would assume Ireland would play at Thomond, Aviva and a game in Belfast to spread out a bit. I would assume it would produce a profit . Munster will get bailed out in the next year or two and will be irrelevant by 2023. Apparently the home union keep the ticket sales and assume it would be a bit higher than 2011 in NZ. Probably not enough to pay back.

http://www.totalsportek.com/money/rugby-world-cup-2015-record-revenue-expected/

Still would prefer Italy (and Argentina who have now pushed back to 2027) for spreading the game further afield (also an excuse for a holiday in a warmer location). Happy with Ireland getting it if Italy do not.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Cyril on Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:58 am

I still think it would have been better as a joint-Celtic bid to spread the potential risk and have games in Cardiff and Edinburgh etc. It won't feel like a proper World Cup without games in Cardiff Wink

Italy would be my choice, although SA would be good too. France put on a fantastic tournament in 2007 with a great atmosphere but perhaps it's a bit too soon for them to have it again.

Ireland in 2023 just feels a bit too close to England staging it last year and a bit like more of the same (but on a smaller scale obviously).

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by marty2086 on Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:15 am

I'm not sure what NI will be spending 48m on?

The article says its not coming out of current spending, with Casements money already set aside, Ravenhill redeveloped and infrastructure redevelopments already in place in some of the areas, it should be interesting to see what that is for.

It'll also be interesting to see how it will impact the All Ireland as both tournaments will be at the same time of year

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:19 am

Hazel Sapling wrote:English money subsidises the rest of the UK. Back when the North Sea was younger (pre 2002) and pumping 2 million barrels a day, Scotland was probably subsidising the rest of the UK (not by much as people expect because the Southern and parts of the Central North Sea may be English). The UK parliament really screwed up with the Barnett formula. Only ever meant to be temporary.

Anyway on rugby, it looks like a good proposal although I would like to see how ticket prices are affected. I would assume Ireland would play at Thomond, Aviva and a game in Belfast to spread out a bit. I would assume it would produce a profit . Munster will get bailed out in the next year or two and will be irrelevant by 2023. Apparently the home union keep the ticket sales and assume it would be a bit higher than 2011 in NZ. Probably not enough to pay back.

http://www.totalsportek.com/money/rugby-world-cup-2015-record-revenue-expected/

Still would prefer Italy (and Argentina who have now pushed back to 2027) for spreading the game further afield (also an excuse for a holiday in a warmer location). Happy with Ireland getting it if Italy do not.

That depends on your perspective. I'm perfectly fine with it.....cheers England (or rather London).

I'm delighted with the prospect and plans for an Irish World Cup. I think Ireland would do a cracking job. Italy would be my second choice, and would also be a lovely place to host it.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Irish Londoner on Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:26 am

I don't think there's going to be much risk, if Ireland gets it , it will be by far and away the biggest international event ever held in Ireland and there will be huge interest, I'd expect even the group games to be a total sell out.

Italy would be a good shout and certainly has the stadiums, but would rely strongly on visiting fans making up the crowds as there's not a huge domestic market.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:33 am

The proximity to England, Wales, Scotland and France will guarantee bumper crowds at an Irish World Cup, plus I think there's no question the local population will be motivated by it, even those who don't traditionally follow rugby.

I can imagine Ryanair are already plotting various means of extracting money from those looking to fly from London, Edinburgh, Manchester etc. You'll end up being cheaper to fly Business Class to New York!

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Irish Londoner on Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:34 am

marty2086 wrote:I'm not sure what NI will be spending 48m on?

The article says its not coming out of current spending, with Casements money already set aside, Ravenhill redeveloped and infrastructure redevelopments already in place in some of the areas, it should be interesting to see what that is for.

It'll also be interesting to see how it will impact the All Ireland as both tournaments will be at the same time of year

Marty, it's the politicians doing double accounting on the same money, they're spending the money anyway so all they do is claim that it was for the RWC bid !

How this works: you tell the press you're giving Ulster rugby £2 million for Ravenhill, and the GAA £2 million. Good press.
Then you announce that you are supporting the RWC bid and will commit £4 million pounds towards the stadiums. Good press.
Man on the street thinks you have spent a total of £8 million on the stadium !

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by marty2086 on Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:04 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
marty2086 wrote:I'm not sure what NI will be spending 48m on?

The article says its not coming out of current spending, with Casements money already set aside, Ravenhill redeveloped and infrastructure redevelopments already in place in some of the areas, it should be interesting to see what that is for.

It'll also be interesting to see how it will impact the All Ireland as both tournaments will be at the same time of year

Marty, it's the politicians doing double accounting on the same money, they're spending the money anyway so all they do is claim that it was for the RWC bid !

How this works: you tell the press you're giving Ulster rugby £2 million for Ravenhill, and the GAA £2 million. Good press.
Then you announce that you are supporting the RWC bid and will commit £4 million pounds towards the stadiums. Good press.
Man on the street thinks you have spent a total of £8 million on the stadium !

Except Ravenhill has been redeveloped, I think people would notice the lack of building work going on and you've never heard of Jim Allister obviously.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by TrailApe on Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:17 pm

What would really put the cherry on the cake for me is if the EEC stumped up some money for the redevelopment of the stadiums and infrastructure, I would really love that...
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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Sin é on Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:18 pm

I think World Rugby want Government financial guarantees to ensure that the hosting countries are fully behind the bid.

Certainly in the case of NI, it will help concentrate Stormont Gov. minds if they have to put their hand in their pockets. It also means that NI is a real partner in this (unlike, say Cardiff just getting a few games to host).
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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:32 pm

Sin é wrote:I think World Rugby want Government financial guarantees to ensure that the hosting countries are fully behind the bid.

Certainly in the case of NI, it will help concentrate Stormont Gov. minds if they have to put their hand in their pockets. It also means that NI is a real partner in this (unlike, say Cardiff just getting a few games to host).

I thought there was a World Cup rule somewhere saying regardless of host nation, Cardiff always gets to host some games.....

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Pot Hale on Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:01 pm

Yes. I can hear The Usual Suspects now if Ireland were to be awarded the RWC - it's all Ireland's fault that no games are given to Mllennium. For once, they'll be right though.
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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by LordDowlais on Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:05 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:I thought there was a World Cup rule somewhere saying regardless of host nation, Cardiff always gets to host some games.....

It was an agreement signed when Wales hosted the 1999 WC. All other 5N countries played their games at home, thus if they ever hosted a WC then we could have our games in Cardiff. OK

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Sin é on Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:15 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Sin é wrote:I think World Rugby want Government financial guarantees to ensure that the hosting countries are fully behind the bid.

Certainly in the case of NI, it will help concentrate Stormont Gov. minds if they have to put their hand in their pockets. It also means that NI is a real partner in this (unlike, say Cardiff just getting a few games to host).

I thought there was a World Cup rule somewhere saying regardless of host nation, Cardiff always gets to host some games.....

I believe the only reason Ireland are bidding to host the world cup is stop Cardiff hosting any games. Wink
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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Pot Hale on Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:20 pm

The stadium upgrade costs do not include upgrading Ravenhill or Casement. They're already budgeted and paid for regardless of RWC bid. They're owned by GAA and IRFU.

The two governments are providing guarantees not actual expenditure.
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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Pete330v2 on Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:35 pm

Good old LD, never failing to make the rest of us feel at least momentarily intelligent Smile

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Sin é on Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:15 pm

Italians announce proposed venues (text google translated). They have yet to sort out Government backing and municipality support.

http://www.federugby.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9766%3Arugby-world-cup-2023-identificati-gli-stadi-per-la-candidatura-italiana&catid=252%3Aslide&Itemid=811&lang=it&jjj=1471025369302&jjj=1471284582645

RUGBY WORLD CUP 2023, IDENTIFIED THE STAGES FOR ITALIAN CANDIDACY
Friday, 12 August 2016 16:06


Rome - The Italian Rugby Federation continues the preparation of the application to the Rugby World Cup 2023 dell'ufficializzazione views by World Rugby, in autumn 2017, the country that will host the tenth edition of the World Championships.

Twelve plants identified to host the forty-eight meetings of the World of Rugby and FIR for which, after the summer break and in view of the presentation of the first dossier to the International Federation, is waiting to receive expressions of interest from their respective municipalities .

Rome, with the Olympic Stadium and the Flaminio Stadium, it is the only city with two plants in the list but the Italian bid will involve the entire country, from Sicily to Friuli Venezia Giulia.



" The Rugby World Cup is one of the most prestigious sporting events on the international scene - said the President of the FIR, Alfredo Gavazzi - and are confident that the time is ripe to bring this unique event in our country. We are waiting to receive from the Government the commitment to provide the economic security and we are completing the retrieval of expressions of interest by the municipalities ".

" That Italian - continued Gavazzi - has all the credentials to be a strong candidate, rugby in our country continues to increase its practitioners (+ 13.52% in the last four years, 110 252 members present in the face of a downturn general of Sports in Italy ed) and the organization of international events has become one of the business cards of our Federation: to bring the World Cup in our country would be a great opportunity to give new impetus to the growth of rugby in Italy, while generating an important economic impact for the entire country . "

This enlarged list of plants identified by FIR for the candidacy to the Rugby World Cup 2023:

Rome Olympic Stadium - capacity 72,698

Roma, Flaminio Stadium - capacity 30,000 ca

Milan, Stadium "Giuseppe Meazza" - capacity 81 277

Turin, Olympic Stadium - capacity 27,958

Genoa Stadium "Luigi Ferraris" - capacity 36,599

Florence Stadium "Artemio Franchi" - capacity 47 290

Bologna, Stadium "Renato Dall'Ara" - capacity 38 279

Udine, "Stadio Friuli" - capacity 25 144

Padua, Stadium "Euganeo" - capacity 32 420

Napoli, Stadio "San Paolo" - capacity 60.240

Bari, Stadium "St. Nicholas" - capacity 58 248

Palermo, Stadium "Renzo Barbera" - capacity 37 619


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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by doctor_grey on Mon Aug 15, 2016 7:22 pm

Sin é wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Sin é wrote:I think World Rugby want Government financial guarantees to ensure that the hosting countries are fully behind the bid.

Certainly in the case of NI, it will help concentrate Stormont Gov. minds if they have to put their hand in their pockets. It also means that NI is a real partner in this (unlike, say Cardiff just getting a few games to host).

I thought there was a World Cup rule somewhere saying regardless of host nation, Cardiff always gets to host some games.....

I believe the only reason Ireland are bidding to host the world cup is stop Cardiff hosting any games. Wink
I understand the WRU are in contact with the Japan 2019 organisers regarding hosting some pool matches. Only one Wales match, though.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:23 pm

Sin é wrote:Rome -  The Italian Rugby Federation continues the preparation of the application to the Rugby World Cup 2023 dell'ufficializzazione views by World Rugby, in autumn 2017, the country that will host the tenth edition of the World Championships.

Twelve plants identified to host the forty-eight meetings of the World of Rugby and FIR for which, after the summer break and in view of the presentation of the first dossier to the International Federation, is waiting to receive expressions of interest from their respective municipalities .

Rome, with the Olympic Stadium and the Flaminio Stadium, it is the only city with two plants in the list but the Italian bid will involve the entire country, from Sicily to Friuli Venezia Giulia.



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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Welly on Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:26 pm

I hope and I think Italy will win this.

Nothing against Ireland (I personally would be able to go to Ireland one with ease). But I think this will make or break Italian rugby.

They have the stadiums for it at least.

Hope it goes
2019 Japan
2023 Italy
2027 USA
2031 Argentina
2035 Ireland/Canada

Then after that look at countries like Spain etc.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by wolfball on Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:32 pm

Welly wrote: I hope and I think Italy will win this.

Nothing against Ireland (I personally would be able to go to Ireland one with ease). But I think this will make or break Italian rugby.

They have the stadiums for it at least.

Hope it goes
2019 Japan
2023 Italy
2027 USA
2031 Argentina
2035 Ireland/Canada

Then after that look at countries like Spain etc.

it will never go like that. Not having a top (well, original rugby playing) 8 country host for +20 years would be a big mistake.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Welly on Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:58 pm

wolfball wrote:
Welly wrote: I hope and I think Italy will win this.

Nothing against Ireland (I personally would be able to go to Ireland one with ease). But I think this will make or break Italian rugby.

They have the stadiums for it at least.

Hope it goes
2019 Japan
2023 Italy
2027 USA
2031 Argentina
2035 Ireland/Canada

Then after that look at countries like Spain etc.

it will never go like that. Not having a top (well, original rugby playing) 8 country host for +20 years would be a big mistake.

Why would it be a mistake? Out of interest.

And don't say money as all those countries have potential to turn a profit. (Something NZ didn't do in 2011)

If rugby wants to expand it needs to introduce the RWC in different continents. NA being the biggest.

The only reason not to is for tradition.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Exiledinborders on Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:42 pm

Welly wrote:
wolfball wrote:
Welly wrote: I hope and I think Italy will win this.

Nothing against Ireland (I personally would be able to go to Ireland one with ease). But I think this will make or break Italian rugby.

They have the stadiums for it at least.

Hope it goes
2019 Japan
2023 Italy
2027 USA
2031 Argentina
2035 Ireland/Canada

Then after that look at countries like Spain etc.

it will never go like that. Not having a top (well, original rugby playing) 8 country host for +20 years would be a big mistake.

Why would it be a mistake? Out of interest.

And don't say money as all those countries have potential to turn a profit. (Something NZ didn't do in 2011)

It needs to turn a profit fairly regularly. A loss in NZ was OK because RWC in England made World Rugby lots of money. The money in Rugby is in England and France so they need to get RWC from time to time to subsidise tournaments elsewhere.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by doctor_grey on Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:03 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
Welly wrote:
wolfball wrote:
Welly wrote: I hope and I think Italy will win this.

Nothing against Ireland (I personally would be able to go to Ireland one with ease). But I think this will make or break Italian rugby.

They have the stadiums for it at least.

Hope it goes
2019 Japan
2023 Italy
2027 USA
2031 Argentina
2035 Ireland/Canada

Then after that look at countries like Spain etc.

it will never go like that. Not having a top (well, original rugby playing) 8 country host for +20 years would be a big mistake.

Why would it be a mistake? Out of interest.

And don't say money as all those countries have potential to turn a profit. (Something NZ didn't do in 2011)

 
It needs to turn a profit fairly regularly. A loss in NZ was OK because RWC in England made World Rugby lots of money. The money in Rugby is in England and France so they need to get RWC from time to time to subsidise tournaments elsewhere.
It's funny, but the thought that occurred to me reading the thread was that we can have a real discussion about whether a number of non-traditional Rugby nations could successfully and profitably host a RWC. Japan will do a great job. Italy would do a great job. As would USA and Canada. Each would bring in a lot of money to the IRB (World Rugby) coffers. And each would add something unique in its own way. And that makes the RWC better and helps the game grow. All that said, Ireland would be a great place for the RWC, too. So I think Rugby is is good shape however it works out.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Pot Hale on Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:23 am

Agreed Doc.   I'm a bit puzzled about the continued insistence on the RWC returning to a Big rugby nation to "subsidise" other RWC tournaments.  

As I understand it, World Rugby gets its guaranteed fee €120m approx no matter what - hence the need for government underwriting.

So when people say that it's not profitable in some countries, who is not profiting?  The host country?  Quite possibly.

World Rugby?  Unlikely.  It also benefits from the TV deals it puts in place.   Ticketing income I understand goes to the host country along with the attendant stadium hire/upgrade costs.

RWC 2015 was undoubtedly profitable for the English RFU with their attendance numbers, but that's one union.  Presumably it allowed them to agree the recent £220m deal with the premiership clubs with a bit of comfort.  

But did World Rugby benefit exponentially more?
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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Irish Londoner on Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:56 am

PH - I think it's the amount generated above the guarantee that' interests them - the guarantee covers the "basic" costs/expected income and they also get a slice of whatever is made over and above that.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by doctor_grey on Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:26 pm

Regardless of how the money is sliced, I think an Irish RWC is equally lucrative as any of the other contenders from a financial point of view.

Ireland's should be able to charge whatever the market will support because of their proximity to other nations - a lot of people will want to come and visit and that part won't be too costly or long. Italy is almost as good. Also pretty easy to get to for many Rugby fans. Plus Ireland is a nice compact area for Rugby, so easy for fans to get around.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by brennomac on Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:31 pm

Welly wrote: I hope and I think Italy will win this.

Nothing against Ireland (I personally would be able to go to Ireland one with ease). But I think this will make or break Italian rugby.

They have the stadiums for it at least.

Hope it goes
2019 Japan
2023 Italy
2027 USA
2031 Argentina
2035 Ireland/Canada

Yes there are lots of stadiums in Italy but most are owned by soccer clubs and a September world cup would clash with Serie A. Italy currently use Stadio Olympico (used by Lazio and Roma in Serie A) for home matches, and a match was held once I think in the San Siro (used by Milan and Inter). Are the Serie A clubs going to disrupt their season for a RWC - somehow can't see it. Only way an Italy RWC would work would be if it is held in the soccer off season in high summer.

Then after that look at countries like Spain etc.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Welly on Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:20 pm

brennomac wrote:

Yes there are lots of stadiums in Italy but most are owned by soccer clubs and a September world cup would clash with Serie A.  Italy currently use Stadio Olympico (used by Lazio and Roma in Serie A) for home matches, and a match was held once I think in the San Siro (used by Milan and Inter). Are the Serie A clubs going to disrupt their season for a RWC - somehow can't see it.  Only way an Italy RWC would work would be if it is held in the soccer off season in high summer.

Italy have already announced the 12 stadiums they would use so I guess they already have permission by the Serie A teams or RWC are fine with it being moved.

I think a lot of the Serie A clubs would love a chance to redevelop their stadiums esp places like San Paolo or Euganeo.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Sin é on Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:01 pm

Italy are at the very early stages yet. They are only at the 'expression of interest' stage yet. San Siro is owned by Municipality of Milan, not by the football teams. Similarly with Comune di Napoli which is also owned by the City, not the football club. Stadio Olympica in Rome is owned by the Olympic's Council.

''Twelve plants identified to host the forty-eight meetings of the World of Rugby and FIR for which, after the summer break and in view of the presentation of the first dossier to the International Federation, is waiting to receive expressions of interest from their respective municipalities.''

So, they are waiting for the owners of the stadia to agree to their use at this stage.
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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Sin é on Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:03 pm

Anyone see Rowanbi recently? His thoughts on the Olympics in Rio would be interesting now Very Happy Especially his take on the empty stadia!
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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by Welly on Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:07 pm

Sin é wrote:Italy are at the very early stages yet. They are only at the 'expression of interest' stage yet. San Siro is owned by Municipality of Milan, not by the football teams. Similarly with Comune di Napoli which is also owned by the City, not the football club. Stadio Olympica in Rome is owned by the Olympic's Council.

''Twelve plants identified to host the forty-eight meetings of the World of Rugby and FIR for which, after the summer break and in view of the presentation of the first dossier to the International Federation, is waiting to receive expressions of interest from their respective municipalities.''

So, they are waiting for the owners of the stadia to agree to their use at this stage.

Okay if they can get those stadiums they should host it IMO.

If they can't get those stadiums then they clearly can't and Ireland should.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

Post by wolfball on Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:53 pm

Welly wrote:
wolfball wrote:
Welly wrote: I hope and I think Italy will win this.

Nothing against Ireland (I personally would be able to go to Ireland one with ease). But I think this will make or break Italian rugby.

They have the stadiums for it at least.

Hope it goes
2019 Japan
2023 Italy
2027 USA
2031 Argentina
2035 Ireland/Canada

Then after that look at countries like Spain etc.

it will never go like that. Not having a top (well, original rugby playing) 8 country host for +20 years would be a big mistake.

Why would it be a mistake? Out of interest.

And don't say money as all those countries have potential to turn a profit. (Something NZ didn't do in 2011)

If rugby wants to expand it needs to introduce the RWC in different continents. NA being the biggest.

The only reason not to is for tradition.

I am all for spreading rugby around, but there has to be some focus on the fans that have always been there supporting their country for decades. Japan is a big trip for most of the world's rugby fans and having the following tournament in one of the homeland's of rugby is more than reasonable in my view. Also, if we want to look at rugby more as a business (which I am loath to do but is very relevant when talking about the reasons for picking RWC locations), like any business, keeping your current customers and moving them from low value to high value spenders is an easier task then getting completely new fans on board. I honestly think that the rugby union markets in ireland and australia are far from saturated (with rugby down the list of most popular sports) and winning new fans in those countries is easier than getting americans to leave NFL or italians to leave football.

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Re: Ireland's bid for 2023 World Cup - venues announced + Gov. underwriting 320m

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