England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

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England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by VTR on Tue 09 Aug 2016, 9:25 am

First topic message reminder :

The final Test of the summer will take place with England looking dominant after back to back wins, but Pakistan still with a chance of a series draw, which would be a great result for them

England are expected to be unchanged despite there yet again be talk of Rashid playing (he must have the highest number of non-caps in cricket history Very Happy )

Pakistan might look to drop Hafeez and potentially take the risk of playing 5 bowlers

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by alfie on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 1:58 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:Boycott saying this is a 600 pitch !

If that's right it is just about game over already Smile

Really does look as if they have fallen into an overconfident frame of mind again.  Makes me a little concerned as to what Bayliss is actually telling them ( not that he should need to) : are they still going with the McCullum NZ style  - fix bayonets , charge plan ?

Let's give Pakistan some credit too - the other team is allowed to play well...and they've bowled some magnificent stuff Wahab in particular

I'll give credit when it's due. But I disagree about the magnificent stuff today ...Yes Wahab got Vince with a beauty ; and they've bowled a few other good deliveries ...but frankly I think they were pretty ordinary until Cook and Root got out : far too many loose balls , wasted wide balls...
Three of the four wickets were not really down to any great merit in the bowling. They've improved as the session went on ; but no way should there be four down at lunch.

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:02 pm

Oh lordy! Big reprieve for Bairstow...caught off a Riaz no-ball.

I don't have high hopes for this innings.


Last edited by dyrewolfe on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by alfie on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:02 pm

Could have been worse ! Bairstow caught at cover ...but a big no ball saves him.

Though now Ballance has edged to slip and that's five gone Shocked

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by VTR on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:03 pm

Ballance gone now - this is an art lesson in how to chuck away a series win by not working hard enough

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by alfie on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:05 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:Oh lordy! Big reprieve for Bairstow...caught off an Amir no-ball.

I don't have high hopes for this innings.

Neither do I. Lucky to make 250 from here and will need a big effort from the poor old bowlers , and/ or a huge second innings or this is going to be a 2-2 drawn series...


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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:05 pm

FFS what a mess! Rolling Eyes

England seem hell-bent on throwing this innings away. now 110-5 with the departure of Ballance for just 8.

This is just pathetic...unless they had a secret team bet to see if they could better the Edgbaston comeback.
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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by VTR on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:11 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:

This is just pathetic...unless they had a secret team bet to see if they could better the Edgbaston comeback.

Its the only logical explanation. How can they be so good all of 5 days ago and so bad today? I'd take 250 from here then hope the bowlers can somehow repair the mess for the umpteenth time

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:11 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:Uncharacteristic poor shot from Cookie...just proves he is merely mortal I suppose. Leaves England in a bit of a dodgy position with Root and Vince now at the crease.

Could definitely do with a big partnership now.


EDIT:

Jesus - no sooner do I post this than Root is back in the pavilion. What the hell...?

England in some serious bother now. Can Vince and Ballance hang around and trouble the scorers for a while?

Really hoping we don't need another Bairstow & Moeen show to save us just yet.

THE PROPHECY IS FULFILLED!

(assuming, that is, they do manage to salvage this innings)
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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by VTR on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:20 pm

Well its a 20 run partnership so far, which in the context of the innings is an absolute monster!

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by alfie on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:21 pm

Sometimes I wonder whether it is really down to an urge to be super aggressive - and confidence that they can come back from anywhere : or just that the only real Test class batsmen are Cook/Root and Bairstow/Ali...
In which case playing any opponent with a decent bowling attack is going to be fraught with peril.

Moeen dropped at slip !

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:24 pm

VTR wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:

This is just pathetic...unless they had a secret team bet to see if they could better the Edgbaston comeback.

Its the only logical explanation. How can they be so good all of 5 days ago and so bad today? I'd take 250 from here then hope the bowlers can somehow repair the mess for the umpteenth time

Or maybe the fact we're a developing side with a lot of inconsistent players? Far from the finished article are England - and as such are prone to bad days like this. Thing is they can often get themselves out of trouble because when we have good days, they tend to be really good. The consistency will come over time hopefully...(batting particularly you'd hope)
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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:26 pm

Amir has to be the unluckiest bowler I've seen - about 10 drops off his bowling this series I reckon...
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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by VTR on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:26 pm

So that's two dropped slip catches and a (non) wicket off a no-ball, but we are still 5 down!

I think that is a good point about not having class. The strength is a lot of batting not a glut of quality, though Root is selling himself very short with some of his dismissals.

I suppose Hales, Vince and Ballance all in one team is not brilliant really. For the next series I think Ballance stays, Hales just about but Vince is surely for the chop

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by msp83 on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:28 pm

England's riches with all-rounders serving them really well! A lineup with Broad at 9 and 8 batsmen has to be fabulous. OK Vince is a problem, and Ballance hasn't really convinced on return. There still are questionmarks over Hales. But Stokes is to slot back in, and there are batting options worthing considering for Vince and Hales too. The sheer depth is just amazing. South Africa used to have a factory creating a conveyer belt of all-rounders in the 90s, with Donald being the only specialist non-batter in their lineup at times. England at present are going through a similar state of riches...... Stokes, Woakes, Ali, Rashid, there is Ansari waiting in the wings, and then there is Broad.......

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by VTR on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:28 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Amir has to be the unluckiest bowler I've seen - about 10 drops off his bowling this series I reckon...

Stokes is another who seems to have a lot of chances dropped off his own bowling - which must be even more galling given how many catches he takes off other bowlers

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by msp83 on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:33 pm

And I see them getting out of this mess through their batting depth yet again. Both Ali and Bairstow have got away with chances offered, and there is Woakes and Broad to come. Pakistan aren't helping themselves with all those drops and no-balls.

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by VTR on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:36 pm

msp83 wrote:And I see them getting out of this mess through their batting depth yet again. Both Ali and Bairstow have got away with chances offered, and there is Woakes and Broad to come. Pakistan aren't helping themselves with all those drops and no-balls.

My problem with it is sometimes it means the top order don't take responsibility. The lower order can't be relied on every time, though they have been pretty good at it. Also I don't think we can count much on Broad these days. I would actually bat Finn above him at the moment

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by alfie on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:36 pm

I take Olly's point about the developing team : in fact it is something I've stressed before too.

However I am concerned that they are currently "developing" the wrong players.
See Ballance against a couple of short balls ? Vince with left armers going across him with even modest bounce ?
It is a way off still ; but I fear that if those two are still part of the batting lineup when they tour Australia in 2017-18 then they may as well hand the Ashes over when they step off the plane...

Hope I'm wrong. Anyway , back to the game in hand : at least the run rate is excellent Smile

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by kwinigolfer on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 3:06 pm

RIP Hanif Mohammad,
His greatness not always reflected statistically and that was reflected in our Hall Of Fame debate, but a giant of the 50's and 60's - father figure of Asian cricket?

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by 931035 on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 3:09 pm

It seems to have gone unnoticed, but the Joe Root wicket was a back foot no-ball.

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 3:18 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:RIP Hanif Mohammad,
His greatness not always reflected statistically and that was reflected in our Hall Of Fame debate, but a giant of the 50's and 60's - father figure of Asian cricket?

Well said, Kwini.

Hanif Mohammad - always the first Little Master.

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by alfie on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 3:21 pm

Probably should have an RIP thread for this but just to concur with Kwini and guildford : Hanif was a great player and his passing - at only 81 - should be marked.
If we ever revisit the HoF he might be discussed again...

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 3:25 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
VTR wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:

This is just pathetic...unless they had a secret team bet to see if they could better the Edgbaston comeback.

Its the only logical explanation. How can they be so good all of 5 days ago and so bad today? I'd take 250 from here then hope the bowlers can somehow repair the mess for the umpteenth time

Or maybe the fact we're a developing side with a lot of inconsistent players? Far from the finished article are England - and as such are prone to bad days like this. Thing is they can often get themselves out of trouble because when we have good days, they tend to be really good. The consistency will come over time hopefully...(batting particularly you'd hope)


Mmm...because Cook, Root and Ballance are developing players, aren't they?

Vince actually got out to a good ball and Hales' dismissal was unlucky, given the circumstances.



Anyway, on a more positive note, despite living dangerously, Bairstow and Ali are doing a great rescue job.

Being negative again, had Pakistan's bowling and catching been better, we could be 7 wickets down (Moeen dropped twice and Bairstow caught off a no-ball).

Well, at least its not boring (being positive again)!

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 3:32 pm

Interesting stat from the BBC live text:

Andrew Samson wrote:
England's top five average 34.78 in Test cricket this year. Numbers six and seven average 75.68.
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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 3:36 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
VTR wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:

This is just pathetic...unless they had a secret team bet to see if they could better the Edgbaston comeback.

Its the only logical explanation. How can they be so good all of 5 days ago and so bad today? I'd take 250 from here then hope the bowlers can somehow repair the mess for the umpteenth time

Or maybe the fact we're a developing side with a lot of inconsistent players? Far from the finished article are England - and as such are prone to bad days like this. Thing is they can often get themselves out of trouble because when we have good days, they tend to be really good. The consistency will come over time hopefully...(batting particularly you'd hope)


Mmm...because Cook, Root and Ballance are developing players, aren't they?

Vince actually got out to a good ball and Hales' dismissal was unlucky, given the circumstances.



Anyway, on a more positive note, despite living dangerously, Bairstow and Ali are doing a great rescue job.

Being negative again, had Pakistan's bowling and catching been better, we could be 7 wickets down (Moeen dropped twice and Bairstow caught off a no-ball).

Well, at least its not boring (being positive again)!


Well Cook isn't developing but Root and Ballance quite clearly are
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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by VTR on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 3:38 pm

Another positive, the run rate is decent!

Just hope Ali doesn't hole out, though its not a bad strategy to try and unsettle Pakistan's 5th bowling option

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by alfie on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 3:42 pm

Has been a good partnership , this ...albeit with the aid of some butterfingered slip catching.
Moeen another fifty clap
Very much needed .
Don't know if anyone here cares about rowing ; but I took a few minutes out from cricket to watch Katherine Grainger pick up another silver medal at her fifth Olympics - damn nearly Gold . She and Vicky Thornley deserve a real thumbsup

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by VTR on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 3:45 pm

200-5 at tea then. I always think that doesn't sound too bad as a score, as it makes getting to 300 fairly likely, which is around the minimum you would want batting first

Well played these two, both with important 50s under pressure

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 3:46 pm

50 overs at tea - that's a disgrace from Pakistan and the umpires
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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by alfie on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 3:53 pm

200/5 sounds better than 120/5 ...but if Boycott and his "600 pitch " is right ( I don't think he is ) then it is a long way short...

As is fifty overs to tea : as Olly says , that's terrible. Has there been some long delay that I've missed at some point ? It is just about back to West Indies 1980s over rate !

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by VTR on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 3:59 pm

That over rate is absolutely shocking, especially as there's 9 overs of spin in there. I doubt tickets for The Oval are going for much less than £100 these days so people are being fleeced

Boycott likes to call any pitch that isn't a green-top or rank turner a 600 pitch. I think that comment is best ignored, clearly 120-5 was not good though!

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by VTR on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 4:14 pm

Bairstow out just after tea. 300 looks a way off all of a sudden, need to get a close as possible. Might be a good day to have a bit of a dart at the Pakistan top order, plenty of overs left!

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by alfie on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 4:22 pm

Hmm. Agree there is a bit there for the bowlers , contrary to the Boycott view. But not a 204/6 pitch by any stretch of the imagination.

Can they struggle up to 280 ? Honestly can't see 300 from here unless these two go big... Could be quite a battle to get back into the game after this effort. Nice to have a Woakes at eight at least...

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by dyrewolfe on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 4:23 pm

Oh well, it was good while it lasted. Good 55 for Jonny B, but Amir gets him to leave England at 203-6.

Would be great if Woakes could emulate him. If he can, we should get close to 300...probably still below-par.

Reckon Pakistan will get at least 100 more than whatever we end up with (Edgbaston - Part II).
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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 4:50 pm

I'm not sure anybody should be taking anything Geoffrey Boycott says as anything over than hypobolic rubbish
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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 4:56 pm

Three consecutive fours from Sir Christopher notworthy notworthy notworthy
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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 5:12 pm

alfie wrote:200/5 sounds better than 120/5 ...but if Boycott and his "600 pitch " is right ( I don't think he is ) then it is a long way short...

As is fifty overs to tea : as Olly says , that's terrible.  Has there been some long delay that I've missed at some point ?  It is just about back to West Indies 1980s over rate !

Alec Stewart generally reckons that Surrey should be looking to post 400 first dig in their home matches. Doubt if there should be a good reason for less being scored on this track. However, talk of 600 seems ridiculous ... or typical Boycott! Rolling Eyes

Another regular comment from Stewie this season, as Surrey's batsmen have too often stumbled, is that, ''it's not fifties that win you matches, it's centuries and preferably big ones''. Hope Moeen has taken note. Smile

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 5:13 pm

Joel Wilson reached the right decision - but he doesn't have a clue how to work DRS does he?

A good partnership comes to an end as Woakes nicks behind for a well made 45
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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 5:22 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Three consecutive fours from Sir Christopher notworthy notworthy notworthy

Just catching up. Anyway, I said this morning that 16 overs in the day was Wahab's fill - that was his 17th! Very Happy

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 5:38 pm

Looks like Moeen is gonna be stranded here, as Broad and Finn depart in quick succession
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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by JDizzle on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 5:42 pm

Moeen needs to sort out what his plan is. And I'm not sure taking singles off the first ball to leave Finn on strike was the optimal scenario...

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 5:43 pm

Why does Wahab bowl the first ball of the over with his jumper on, then take it off?
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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by msp83 on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 5:51 pm

Pakistanis used to be Yorker specialists. Not seeing enough of those against the lower order. The likes of Wahab are quite capable.......

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 6:02 pm

msp83 wrote:Pakistanis used to be Yorker specialists. Not seeing enough of those against the lower order. The likes of Wahab are quite capable.......

Wahab seemed to blow himself out. Do feel that - for him - he was overbowled today and some of his spells were too long.

Meanwhile, clap clap to Moeen as he gets to three figures. Excellent effort although a poor showing from too many of his team mates. Our first innings score is almost certainly not adequate by itself. Whether it actually proves to be so will depend upon how well we bowl and/or Pakistan bat.

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 6:11 pm

England all out for 328, Moeen out for 108 going for a big pull shot - another 5 wicket haul for Sohail

A great effort from the lower order again - you feel 400 is about par on the pitch, but England have managed to scrape together a score which has them very much in the game - when it looked at one point like they'd be well behind par
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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 6:22 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:England all out for 328, Moeen out for 108 going for a big pull shot - another 5 wicket haul for Sohail

A great effort from the lower order again - you feel 400 is about par on the pitch, but England have managed to scrape together a score which has them very much in the game - when it looked at one point like they'd be well behind par

Bang on, Olly.

Largely up to our bowlers now although they'll need to be well supported in the field. Any howlers from Pakistan batsmen also gratefully received. Wink

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 6:32 pm

Broad gets Aslam LBW!

I'd have given Woakes this last over...
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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 8:09 pm

A fluctuating day to say the least! Very Happy Whilst I'm convinced we fell 80 to 100 short of a par score on that Oval track, I would still say England are on top given how Pakistan ended up and what we know about their batting plus our bowling. Add to that, Pakistan's feeble use of a nightwatchman for one ball should give us another wicket early in the morning and an extra boost then.

In the absence of MfC, I'll point out how shameful the over rate was today. I'm just whinging from my armchair - a lot of people paid a lot of money for that. They deserve a lot better.

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by dummy_half on Fri 12 Aug 2016, 7:35 am

guildfordbat wrote:A fluctuating day to say the least! Very Happy Whilst I'm convinced we fell 80 to 100 short of a par score on that Oval track, I would still say England are on top given how Pakistan ended up and what we know about their batting plus our bowling. Add to that, Pakistan's feeble use of a nightwatchman for one ball should give us another wicket early in the morning and an extra boost then.

In the absence of MfC, I'll point out how shameful the over rate was today. I'm just whinging from my armchair - a lot of people paid a lot of money for that. They deserve a lot better.

Seconded - half an hour over time and we were still substantially (10 overs) short of the 90. The umpires have to take a bit of the blame for not hurrying the game along e.g. between overs, but the onus has to be on the fielding side - perhaps a 10 run penalty for every over short of 30 in a session unless there are exceptional circumstances (e.g. long delay for player injury etc). Perhaps some reward also for bowling more than the allocation - an additional DRS review if you bowl more than 90 in a day?

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

Post by Duty281 on Fri 12 Aug 2016, 7:51 am

Not the best day for England, but good enough to take care of Pakistan.

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Re: England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

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