The Six Nations could easily be expanded into the Eight Nations

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Post by international198 on Thu 18 Aug 2016, 6:05 pm

There are 2 rest weekends in the current Six Nations so there's room for 2 more teams in the tournament. Romania and Georgia could join without a problem.

It would give Italy some meaningful competition because at the moment they can't compete with France, England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

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Post by Pot Hale on Thu 18 Aug 2016, 6:12 pm

Wow!
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Post by TrailApe on Thu 18 Aug 2016, 8:50 pm

so the rest of us are looking at ways to reduce the number of international fixtures in an already congested schedule yet you want to add even more?

yeah why not - although be wary - the AB's might try to get a share of the gate receipts... Run
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Post by Cyril on Thu 18 Aug 2016, 10:30 pm

I'd prefer a 4Ns with Eng/Wal/Fra/Ire with home and away. Just one more game.

Ita/Sco/Rom/Geo in the 2nd tier.

Promotion and relegation.

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Post by Sin é on Fri 19 Aug 2016, 12:24 am

TrailApe wrote:so the rest of us are looking at ways to reduce the number of international  fixtures in an already congested schedule yet you want to add even more?

yeah why not - although be wary - the AB's might try to get a share of the gate receipts... Run

thumbsup Very Happy
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Post by Irish Londoner on Fri 19 Aug 2016, 9:10 am

Cyril wrote:I'd prefer a 4Ns with Eng/Wal/Fra/Ire with home and away. Just one more game.

Ita/Sco/Rom/Geo in the 2nd tier.

Promotion and relegation.

A two tier 6Ns with them in the bottom would effectively bankrupt Scottish and Italian rugby and would take a huge chunk out of the finances of whichever of the top tier went down - can you see a market for an 8Ns where the top tier is England, Wales, Romania and Georgia with Ireland, Scotland and France in the bottom tier ?

Also funny how there's never any proposed changes to the format when England are doing well ?

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Post by Welly on Fri 19 Aug 2016, 9:30 am

Would rather have two random pools of 4
Say one year
Pool A
England
Ireland
Scotland
Romania

Pool B
Wales
France
Georgia
Italy
That would be 3 games in the pool stage with a Semi final and final after that which would be 5 games (same as currently) but with 2 extra teams without the worry that Italy and Scotland would feel left behind.

And then for the next year another random draw. Etc etc.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 19 Aug 2016, 9:46 am

Irish Londoner wrote:
Cyril wrote:I'd prefer a 4Ns with Eng/Wal/Fra/Ire with home and away. Just one more game.

Ita/Sco/Rom/Geo in the 2nd tier.

Promotion and relegation.

A two tier 6Ns with them in the bottom would effectively bankrupt Scottish and Italian rugby and would take a huge chunk out of the finances of whichever of the top tier went down - can you see a market for an 8Ns where the top tier is England, Wales, Romania and Georgia with Ireland, Scotland and France in the bottom tier ?

Also funny how there's never any proposed changes to the format when England are doing well ?

Do you mean aren't doing well? Like back in the 80s?

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 19 Aug 2016, 11:10 am

Can we have a limit on the number of times this subject can be rebooted in every 3 month period?

Its really tiresome.

At leats do a search and bump up an old thread on the subject to save everyone the effort of posting the same circular arguments again.

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Post by beshocked on Fri 19 Aug 2016, 11:31 am


I only think pools really work if there are 16 teams or more in a competition.

I wouldn't mind a 8 team competition. Could rest players anyway, wouldn't need to play a full strength team in every game.

Italy certainly can compete with Scotland.

The team that really needs a kick up the backside are France, a loss to Georgia or Romania I think would be sufficiently humiliating to force a change I expect.

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Post by Pot Hale on Sun 21 Aug 2016, 4:40 pm

In the meantime, Six Nations are likely to introduce a 6N bonus point system for the future. In a vote to be taken in next couple of weeks the proposal is that an extra point will be given for teams winning away so that teams playing 3 away matches in a particular season will not be at a disadvantage.  4 try bonus points and losing points will also be on offer, and a tweak to ensure that a Grand Slam winner is not overtaken by a more bonus points team.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 9:51 am

Like the try bonus and losing points but not the idea of more points for an away win. Would rather they judged the tournament over a 2 year period than something like this be implemented.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 11:05 am

Hmm - as arguably the extra away game is Italy it seems like an idea that has not been overly thought out.

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 12:15 pm

Something wummish about the currently poorer teams being relegated.
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Post by Exiledinborders on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 9:48 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
Cyril wrote:I'd prefer a 4Ns with Eng/Wal/Fra/Ire with home and away. Just one more game.

Ita/Sco/Rom/Geo in the 2nd tier.

Promotion and relegation.

A two tier 6Ns with them in the bottom would effectively bankrupt Scottish and Italian rugby and would take a huge chunk out of the finances of whichever of the top tier went down - can you see a market for an 8Ns where the top tier is England, Wales, Romania and Georgia with Ireland, Scotland and France in the bottom tier ?

Also funny how there's never any proposed changes to the format when England are doing well ?
I assume you mean when England are doing badly.

In any case the changes would not really affect England. Based on the last few years England would be in the top tier pretty much constantly. Whist it is true England had not won for a long time prior to this year they have always been near the top. It is 2006 since they have been in fourth place and therefore relegated under this system.

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Post by beshocked on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 8:40 am

George Carlin wrote:Something wummish about the currently poorer teams being relegated.

Sadly some teams have been consistently poor, not just a bad season or two.

I am not suggesting relegation but bringing Georgia and Romania in should hopefully encourage Scotland and Italy to up their games.

Also both would no longer be the weakest teams in the competition so it's a positive.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 8:47 am

ScAnd acknowledge that Scotland finished above France this year.

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Post by beshocked on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 9:22 am

They both had 2 wins and 3 losses.

France are bad at the moment but surely this is just a phase they'll get out of eventually. Or maybe they'll follow the England football model and continue to be poor.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 9:26 am

Fair, enough so Scotland, Italy and France then. Just because historically they've been good doesn't get them out of it!

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Post by beshocked on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 9:52 am

Lumping in France with Scotland and Italy? You really are a plonker.

Seem to forget England's loss to France in 2014. It's still painful remembering the folly of Lancaster.

Italy in comparison have never beaten England and you have to go back 30+ years for a victory for Scotland at Twickenham.

Lancaster was a great coach... honest...

Oh and of course France have won the 6 nations numerous times. 5 to be exact.

I want Italy and Scotland to improve and I hope that Romania and Georgia will give them the incentive to do so.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 9:58 am

Excuse me? Absolutely no need to start and insult people yet again. Sorry beshocked but France finished below Scotland last year, and you can't change that. But of course you're retrospectively celebrating England's joint firsts aren't you?

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Post by beshocked on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 10:08 am

I am just saying it how it is.

Both France and Scotland got 2 wins and 3 losses. On points difference yes they were ahead but it does not matter. It's wins and losses which matter. A narrow loss is still a loss, a narrow win is still a win.

It's why a GS matters so much than if we won courtesy of points difference. A tournament should not be about how much you can put past the weakest team.

2011 was not the same as 2003 or 2016 but to be fair at least we won more than anyone else. Wasn't won on points difference.

I've always wanted my team whether club or country to be ahead of other teams on wins/losses. It would have not sit well with me if we had gone through in the RWC due to points difference (if we drew with Wales we could have).

Georgia and Romania need to be brought into the fold.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 10:11 am

No, you're being overly agressive and insulting for no reason. France finished below Scotland full stop.

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Post by Cyril on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 10:12 am

We need an elite top end tournament and should be cutting sides, not adding them.

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Post by beshocked on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 11:01 am

no 7 & 1/2 Just find your stupidity tiresome.

I don't even know what your point is meant to be.

Cyril disagree. Cutting Italy and Scotland would not be good, we need to encourage them to improve. A more competitive Scotland and Italy would be good for the competition.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 11:12 am

Seriously just try to be civil beshocked and stop lashing out. You picked out initially that Scotland and Italy need to raise their game, just pointing out that Scotland outperformed France last year. But it's ok as France are historically good.

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Post by beshocked on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 11:26 am

Civil? Ha! Is that why you carry on ranting about the salary cap with no proof?

Coming onto this thread purposely to argue with me, is not civil either.

Look you and I have very opposing idelogies and views. I know this.

2 wins and 3 losses is what both teams got, to be fair to Scotland they did beat France but 4th on points difference in the 6 nations doesn't show a significant difference in ability.

"We beat France on points difference to clinch 4th place!" Yay!

Of course France need to raise their game but so do Scotland and Italy.

Stop trying to change the subject, it's not about Scotland, it's about a potential 8 nations.

Something I would be interested in potentially.


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Post by BamBam on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 11:28 am

Saracens are salary cap cheats beshocked, there's no need to throw your toys out of the pram every time anyone mentions it

And I don't care about your well indoctrinated spiel of no proof

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 11:31 am

No ones ranting except for you beshocked. Like I said before write to Saracens and urge them to lift the confidenitiality ban on their cheating so we can see how bad it is. And sorry it's a forum and I'm a pedant so when someone makes a mistake like forgetting Scotland finished above France I'm likely to comment, just coincidence the mistake was yours in this instance.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 11:40 am

To move back onto topic, one way tehy could expand the tournament without too many additional games etc would be to change the tournament. Seed teams, split into 2 groups of equal standing and top team from each plays off for the championship. Would allow the inclusion of some new teams and also freshen up the games. Obvious downpoints are we lose the massive tradition of the original (and follow up) tournment(s).

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Post by beshocked on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 11:42 am

Bambam you're absolutely right. An ignorant fool like you shouldn't annoy me. I should be better than that. Well said. OK

You don't care about evidence? Fair enough. I can't change your deluded viewpoint, I've grown tired of trying. If you want to spout other stupidity as usual then go ahead. I might just put you on ignore though unless you same something constructive.

No 7 & 1/2 please focus on the topic of the thread. I know it's hard for you but please do try.

You are boring me again, just say something constructive.

Scotland finishing above France has no relevance to what I was talking about.

Now you've taken me off topic too.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 11:46 am

If you want to get angry about the salary cap there are plenty of threads on the club board. No Scotland producing a better finish than France has no relevance of course.

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Post by Cyril on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 12:08 pm

How do you make Scotland (and especially) Italy more competitive within the current set up?

It doesn't work by guaranteeing their club sides places in the Champions Cup and the 6 Nations is a little stale with basically two tiers now (France falling into the 2nd one with the other strugglers).

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Post by BamBam on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 12:30 pm

Please don't put me on ignore beshocked, I take great pleasure in seeing how many times the dolly goes flying a week

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Post by beshocked on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 3:03 pm

On the contrary it's you no 7 & 1/2 talking about the English salary cap on a thread about Toulon. I am not angry about the cap, the cries of guilty, hang them flog them with no evidence is annoying though.

Well Cyril I hope bringing in Conor O Shea will help Italy. The coaching is very important of course. Winning more matches against the likes of Romania and Georgia would also give them the confidence. No one likes to be drubbed in every game.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 3:11 pm

On a thread about salary cap cheating, yes again well off topic. Again if you do want to bring it up discuss Saracens and Baths cheating there.

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 3:36 pm

Anyone who thinks Georgia and Romania would seriously bring something to the table (and make Scotland/Italy up their games) are thick as two short planks.

Scotland have improved no end in the last five years. Italy have gone backwards but I'm sure it's temporary. In a competitive 6N game, Italy would destroy Georgia and Romania.

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Post by George Carlin on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 3:38 pm

Right, I've got the solution.

The teams competing in the 8N 2017 should be:

England
France
Ireland
Scotland
Wales
Italy
England Saxons
Saracens

Surely that should please 85% of the posters here?
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Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 3:48 pm

George Carlin wrote:Right, I've got the solution.

The teams competing in the 8N 2017 should be:

England
France
Ireland
Scotland
Wales
Italy
England Saxons
Saracens

Surely that should please 85% of the posters here?

Surely they'd be more at home in the RC? Wink

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Post by beshocked on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 3:57 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Anyone who thinks Georgia and Romania would seriously bring something to the table (and make Scotland/Italy up their games) are thick as two short planks.

Scotland have improved no end in the last five years. Italy have gone backwards but I'm sure it's temporary. In a competitive 6N game, Italy would destroy Georgia and Romania.

Let's look at Scotland's record in the last 5 years.....


2012 -0-5 - 6th Wooden Spoon
2013 - 2-3 - 3rd on points difference
2014 - 1-4 - 5th
2015 0-5 - 6th Wooden Spoon
2016 - 2-3 - 4th on points difference

I don't really see an upward curve personally. If Scotland have a good 2017 6 nations then yes I might agree.

George Carlin no I would rather see Georgia and Romania as the 7th and 8th teams.

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 4:18 pm

beshocked wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Anyone who thinks Georgia and Romania would seriously bring something to the table (and make Scotland/Italy up their games) are thick as two short planks.

Scotland have improved no end in the last five years. Italy have gone backwards but I'm sure it's temporary. In a competitive 6N game, Italy would destroy Georgia and Romania.

Let's look at Scotland's record in the last 5 years.....


2012 -0-5 - 6th Wooden Spoon
2013 - 2-3 - 3rd on points difference
2014 - 1-4 - 5th
2015 0-5 - 6th Wooden Spoon
2016 - 2-3 - 4th on points difference

I don't really see an upward curve personally. If Scotland have a good 2017 6 nations then yes I might agree.

George Carlin no I would rather see Georgia and Romania as the 7th and 8th teams.

Yeah good one. Perhaps you should look into it a bit deeper than results to understand where I'm coming from.

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Post by beshocked on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 4:35 pm

Results are what matters to me most.

Okay I'll put the tries.

2012 - 4
2013 - 7
2014 - 4
2015-6
2016 - 11

To be fair there's an improvement - 2014-16.

Was a good year for Scotland in terms of tries scored. Highest ever in Scotland's 6 nations history.

Scotland have become a lot less stodgy team I agree.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 7:25 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
Cyril wrote:I'd prefer a 4Ns with Eng/Wal/Fra/Ire with home and away. Just one more game.

Ita/Sco/Rom/Geo in the 2nd tier.

Promotion and relegation.

A two tier 6Ns with them in the bottom would effectively bankrupt Scottish and Italian rugby and would take a huge chunk out of the finances of whichever of the top tier went down - can you see a market for an 8Ns where the top tier is England, Wales, Romania and Georgia with Ireland, Scotland and France in the bottom tier ?

Also funny how there's never any proposed changes to the format when England are doing well ?

I'm not particularly for a two tier system, and I think any proposal that references which teams are Div 1 and Div 2 without basis is suspect.

However, I don't give any significance to an argument that relegation could financially threaten a union. Yes it could, if it refuses to live within its means.

I put a post up against Italy a month or two back, currently they are getting more Tier 1 exposure (and more competition money) than similarly ranked Georgia and Japan, but are doing no better in terms of results. Why should they have protected Six Nations income, which they are squandering with their inability to improve results? Why should Georgia be punished when they have obviously done something right to become indisputably the "best of the rest", despite getting no marquee home games, no Six Nations TV money etc. How good would they be if we gave them Six Nations money for a season or two that they could invest in grassroots and infrastructure?

That Italy have been given this money for 16 seasons and not noticeably progressed says to me their not spending it properly. If the money was taken away by relegation, maybe they'd have to spend smarter.

I don't have all the answers, but I just don't agree with protecting the status quo, purely because it could potentially hurt those that the cushy set-up benefits if we did.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:43 pm

George Carlin wrote:Right, I've got the solution.

The teams competing in the 8N 2017 should be:

England
France
Ireland
Scotland
Wales
Italy
England Saxons
Saracens

Surely that should please 85% of the posters here?

Fixed

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Post by sad_gimp on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 3:27 pm

robbo277 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
Cyril wrote:I'd prefer a 4Ns with Eng/Wal/Fra/Ire with home and away. Just one more game.

Ita/Sco/Rom/Geo in the 2nd tier.

Promotion and relegation.

A two tier 6Ns with them in the bottom would effectively bankrupt Scottish and Italian rugby and would take a huge chunk out of the finances of whichever of the top tier went down - can you see a market for an 8Ns where the top tier is England, Wales, Romania and Georgia with Ireland, Scotland and France in the bottom tier ?

Also funny how there's never any proposed changes to the format when England are doing well ?

I'm not particularly for a two tier system, and I think any proposal that references which teams are Div 1 and Div 2 without basis is suspect.

However, I don't give any significance to an argument that relegation could financially threaten a union. Yes it could, if it refuses to live within its means.

I put a post up against Italy a month or two back, currently they are getting more Tier 1 exposure (and more competition money) than similarly ranked Georgia and Japan, but are doing no better in terms of results. Why should they have protected Six Nations income, which they are squandering with their inability to improve results? Why should Georgia be punished when they have obviously done something right to become indisputably the "best of the rest", despite getting no marquee home games, no Six Nations TV money etc. How good would they be if we gave them Six Nations money for a season or two that they could invest in grassroots and infrastructure?

That Italy have been given this money for 16 seasons and not noticeably progressed says to me their not spending it properly. If the money was taken away by relegation, maybe they'd have to spend smarter.

I don't have all the answers, but I just don't agree with protecting the status quo, purely because it could potentially hurt those that the cushy set-up benefits if we did.

This is my main reason for wanting a two-tier system, to better take the game forward and expand it's reach. Has Italy being in the 6N for the last 16 years paid off? It would be better for the game if we can give the likes of Georgia a crack at the 6N. I'm sure there's far more potential for growth there, rugby is as established as it's ever going to be in Italy.

It's arguable that Italy playing in a division they can be competitive in and be in with a shout of winning and going back to the top tier would be much better entertainment than their current annual whipping to the bottom of the table (barring the odd occasion when Scotland are awful).

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Post by profitius on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 4:33 pm

If you're going to include Georgia you might as well include the USA or Canada.
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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 8:56 am

profitius wrote:If you're going to include Georgia you might as well include the USA or Canada.

Well as current thinking seems to suggest Pro12 franchises in Houston and Vancouver (Pro14?) that would be the logical next step.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 8:59 am

PS,

Just a personal opinion but anyone asking for an 8Ns and increasing the overcrowded fixture list yet more should be taken to the South Pole, stripped naked and told to build a snowman whilst listening to atonal tweenies singing "Let it snow"

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 9:22 am

LondonTiger wrote:PS,

Just a personal opinion but anyone asking for an 8Ns and increasing the overcrowded fixture list yet more should be taken to the South Pole, stripped naked and told to build a snowman whilst listening to atonal tweenies singing "Let it snow"

Is this Gatland's new training regime?

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Post by Shifty on Fri 26 Aug 2016, 9:31 am

Why not just have the 6 natons teams play each other home and away each season?
Job done, more revenue, more interest, less games, and no summer tours which is whats really killing our players, and New Zealand neutralised.

If you wanted to play during the summer tour time you could eaily add two more teams into the tournament.

Personally I'd like to have an West Europe / North America confereance and a East Europe / Asia conference. With the winner of each tournament reaching a grand final at the end. 9 games, and 1 more if you win the pool.

West
1 England
2 Wales
3 Ireland
4 France
5 Scotland
6 Italy
7 Germany
8 Spain
9 USA
10 Canada

East
1 Georgia
2 Romania
3 Russia
4 Hong Kong
5 South Korea
6 Japan
7 Ukraine
8 Poland
9 Moldova
10 Czech Republic
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