2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Page 3 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Fri 19 Aug 2016, 2:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

Deserves it's own topic I feel.

Dai Llewod

Posts : 218
Join date : 2016-06-03

Back to top Go down


Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:21 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Where did they abolish the criteria?

That question makes no sense.

Really?

Because you claim they abolished the 18k criteria, now you're saying a question asking for clarification on it doesnt make sense? picard

Did you not read Munchkin's post?

"Tenders were not contingent on the Final being hosted in a PRO12 Club venue with a 18,000 capacity"

Did you not read it?

This was talking about the awarding of it to Belfast, so there was never the criteria

marty2086

Posts : 4847
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:22 pm

Have you ever taken part in an actual tender?

Usually criteria are not strict but the closer you are to each criteria, the more you score

marty2086

Posts : 4847
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:28 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Where did they abolish the criteria?

That question makes no sense.

Really?

Because you claim they abolished the 18k criteria, now you're saying a question asking for clarification on it doesnt make sense? picard

Did you not read Munchkin's post?

"Tenders were not contingent on the Final being hosted in a PRO12 Club venue with a 18,000 capacity"

Did you not read it?

This was talking about the awarding of it to Belfast, so there was never the criteria

Not accourding to Ulster Rugby Club

Capacity has increased from 11,000 to 18,000 and the ground is now capable of hosting a Heineken Cup quarter-final and a RaboDirect PRO12 final.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/ImportNews1004.php#.V7sJK_krK70

Unless you are calling Ulster fibbers.

Dai Llewod

Posts : 218
Join date : 2016-06-03

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:30 pm

Fs, that was written before the whole thing was changed, as already said Ulster missed out on hosting it before because the ground wasn't big enough

marty2086

Posts : 4847
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:31 pm

marty2086 wrote:Fs, that was written before the whole thing was changed, as already said Ulster missed out on hosting it before because the ground wasn't big enough

Exactly!!! They changed it as soon as Ulster had their magic 18k confirmed.

Dai Llewod

Posts : 218
Join date : 2016-06-03

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:34 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Fs, that was written before the whole thing was changed, as already said Ulster missed out on hosting it before because the ground wasn't big enough

Exactly!!! They changed it as soon as Ulster had their magic 18k confirmed.

So you are saying it was all a conspiracy to get the final to Belfast?

marty2086

Posts : 4847
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:37 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Fs, that was written before the whole thing was changed, as already said Ulster missed out on hosting it before because the ground wasn't big enough

Exactly!!! They changed it as soon as Ulster had their magic 18k confirmed.

They didn't change the minimum 18,000 capacity.


Pot Hale

Posts : 4638
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 54
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Munchkin on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:37 pm

I don't believe the 18k minimum has changed at all:

Q: What was the set criteria for placing a tender?

A: Other than the stadium size and certain logistical & local cost guarantees, bidding teams had the opportunity to be as imaginative as they like.

Munchkin

Posts : 6637
Join date : 2012-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:37 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Fs, that was written before the whole thing was changed, as already said Ulster missed out on hosting it before because the ground wasn't big enough

Exactly!!! They changed it as soon as Ulster had their magic 18k confirmed.

So you are saying it was all a conspiracy to get the final to Belfast?

Not a conspiracy if the facts are in the public domain.

At the end of the day, you guys are happy that the final has been in Ireland for 7 of the last 8 seasons. Which is great for you, but don't act all surprised when someone tells you that the Pro12 is dead in Wales as is completely neglected by the competition.

Dai Llewod

Posts : 218
Join date : 2016-06-03

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:39 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:Interesting, thanks Munchkin. The Pro12 site, used to state that the venue required 18,000 capacity.


"The new capacity will surpass the threshold required to host a RaboDirect PRO12 Final or a Heineken Cup quarter final."
SOURCE:
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/irish/2012/1114/345640-ulster-secure-funds-for-ravenhill-development

So what we know is that Ulster had to nominate the final to be held in the RDS as Ravenhill didn't meet capacity. Then as soon as they redeveloped the Kingspan to 18,000 they could host the final there, then as sooin as the final was announced as the Kingspan - the Pro12 abolished the 18,000 capacity criteria. How convenient.


That doesn't sound convenient at all. So Ulster went to the expense of upgrading their stadium to 18,000 capacity. And when that redevelopment was complete, the rules changed. After they had incurred the expense. That is as far from convenient as one could possibly get.

thebandwagonsociety

Posts : 2149
Join date : 2011-06-02

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:39 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Fs, that was written before the whole thing was changed, as already said Ulster missed out on hosting it before because the ground wasn't big enough

Exactly!!! They changed it as soon as Ulster had their magic 18k confirmed.

They didn't change the minimum 18,000 capacity.


The celtic league final used to had to be played in a stadium with a minimum 18,000 capacity.

Dai Llewod

Posts : 218
Join date : 2016-06-03

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Munchkin on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:40 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Fs, that was written before the whole thing was changed, as already said Ulster missed out on hosting it before because the ground wasn't big enough

Exactly!!! They changed it as soon as Ulster had their magic 18k confirmed.

So you are saying it was all a conspiracy to get the final to Belfast?

Not a conspiracy if the facts are in the public domain.

At the end of the day, you guys are happy that the final has been in Ireland for 7 of the last 8 seasons. Which is great for you, but don't act all surprised when someone tells you that the Pro12 is dead in Wales as is completely neglected by the competition.

The counter argument would be that the Regions have neglected the opportunity to host a final.

Munchkin

Posts : 6637
Join date : 2012-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Munchkin on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:40 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Fs, that was written before the whole thing was changed, as already said Ulster missed out on hosting it before because the ground wasn't big enough

Exactly!!! They changed it as soon as Ulster had their magic 18k confirmed.

They didn't change the minimum 18,000 capacity.


The celtic league final used to had to be played in a stadium with a minimum 18,000 capacity.

Still does.

Munchkin

Posts : 6637
Join date : 2012-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:41 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:Interesting, thanks Munchkin. The Pro12 site, used to state that the venue required 18,000 capacity.


"The new capacity will surpass the threshold required to host a RaboDirect PRO12 Final or a Heineken Cup quarter final."
SOURCE:
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/irish/2012/1114/345640-ulster-secure-funds-for-ravenhill-development

So what we know is that Ulster had to nominate the final to be held in the RDS as Ravenhill didn't meet capacity. Then as soon as they redeveloped the Kingspan to 18,000 they could host the final there, then as sooin as the final was announced as the Kingspan - the Pro12 abolished the 18,000 capacity criteria. How convenient.


That doesn't sound convenient at all.  So Ulster went to the expense of upgrading their stadium to 18,000 capacity. And when that redevelopment was complete, the rules changed.  After they had incurred the expense.  That is as far from convenient as one could possibly get.

It was probably a clause required for them to get their stadium funded via UK Taxpayers money

Dai Llewod

Posts : 218
Join date : 2016-06-03

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:41 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Fs, that was written before the whole thing was changed, as already said Ulster missed out on hosting it before because the ground wasn't big enough

Exactly!!! They changed it as soon as Ulster had their magic 18k confirmed.

So you are saying it was all a conspiracy to get the final to Belfast?

Not a conspiracy if the facts are in the public domain.

At the end of the day, you guys are happy that the final has been in Ireland for 7 of the last 8 seasons. Which is great for you, but don't act all surprised when someone tells you that the Pro12 is dead in Wales as is completely neglected by the competition.

In other words, what you're saying is now that you've  been proven wrong on your assertions, you're going to retreat to a vague whinge about a final hosting and ignore realities and facts.


Last edited by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:44 pm; edited 2 times in total

Pot Hale

Posts : 4638
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 54
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:42 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Fs, that was written before the whole thing was changed, as already said Ulster missed out on hosting it before because the ground wasn't big enough

Exactly!!! They changed it as soon as Ulster had their magic 18k confirmed.

They didn't change the minimum 18,000 capacity.


The celtic league final used to had to be played in a stadium with a minimum 18,000 capacity.

Still does.

Now I'm confused. Doesn't the article you posted dispute this?

Dai Llewod

Posts : 218
Join date : 2016-06-03

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:43 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Fs, that was written before the whole thing was changed, as already said Ulster missed out on hosting it before because the ground wasn't big enough

Exactly!!! They changed it as soon as Ulster had their magic 18k confirmed.

So you are saying it was all a conspiracy to get the final to Belfast?

Not a conspiracy if the facts are in the public domain.

At the end of the day, you guys are happy that the final has been in Ireland for 7 of the last 8 seasons. Which is great for you, but don't act all surprised when someone tells you that the Pro12 is dead in Wales as is completely neglected by the competition.

In other words, what you're saying is now that I've been proven wrong on my assertions, I'm going to retreat to a vague whinge about a final hosting and ignore realities and facts.  

No

Dai Llewod

Posts : 218
Join date : 2016-06-03

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Munchkin on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:44 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:Interesting, thanks Munchkin. The Pro12 site, used to state that the venue required 18,000 capacity.


"The new capacity will surpass the threshold required to host a RaboDirect PRO12 Final or a Heineken Cup quarter final."
SOURCE:
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/irish/2012/1114/345640-ulster-secure-funds-for-ravenhill-development

So what we know is that Ulster had to nominate the final to be held in the RDS as Ravenhill didn't meet capacity. Then as soon as they redeveloped the Kingspan to 18,000 they could host the final there, then as sooin as the final was announced as the Kingspan - the Pro12 abolished the 18,000 capacity criteria. How convenient.


That doesn't sound convenient at all.  So Ulster went to the expense of upgrading their stadium to 18,000 capacity. And when that redevelopment was complete, the rules changed.  After they had incurred the expense.  That is as far from convenient as one could possibly get.

It was probably a clause required for them to get their stadium funded via UK Taxpayers money

Now you're just bitching, and also neglecting the fact that Ulster had to raise the money for one of the new stands (around £3.5 million, if memory isn't faulty).

Munchkin

Posts : 6637
Join date : 2012-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:47 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Fs, that was written before the whole thing was changed, as already said Ulster missed out on hosting it before because the ground wasn't big enough

Exactly!!! They changed it as soon as Ulster had their magic 18k confirmed.

So you are saying it was all a conspiracy to get the final to Belfast?

Not a conspiracy if the facts are in the public domain.

At the end of the day, you guys are happy that the final has been in Ireland for 7 of the last 8 seasons. Which is great for you, but don't act all surprised when someone tells you that the Pro12 is dead in Wales as is completely neglected by the competition.

Happy?

Heres some facts in the public domain, Ulster had to move knockout games to Dublin including a final where they were the home team against Leinster. This was part of the business case for increasing the capacity of Ravenhill.

The capacity of the ground was confirmed long before the new setup was agreed.

The new setup was needed because of the date restrictions from ERCC

The Welsh, Scottish and Italians did not host the early finals because they failed to be the top seeds in the final(nasty Irish winning more games and getting more points there)

The new setup has seen the WELSH not bid for the final, in the first yer Glasgow bid but lost out UNANIMOUSLY to Belfast

So tell me how the Welsh lack of success and unwillingness to bid is the fault of the Irish and how its the competition who are neglecting it rather than the opposite?

marty2086

Posts : 4847
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Munchkin on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:47 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Fs, that was written before the whole thing was changed, as already said Ulster missed out on hosting it before because the ground wasn't big enough

Exactly!!! They changed it as soon as Ulster had their magic 18k confirmed.

They didn't change the minimum 18,000 capacity.


The celtic league final used to had to be played in a stadium with a minimum 18,000 capacity.

Still does.

Now I'm confused. Doesn't the article you posted dispute this?

I posted the relevant bit in isolation:

Q: What was the set criteria for placing a tender?

A: Other than the stadium size and certain logistical & local cost guarantees, bidding teams had the opportunity to be as imaginative as they like

Munchkin

Posts : 6637
Join date : 2012-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:48 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Fs, that was written before the whole thing was changed, as already said Ulster missed out on hosting it before because the ground wasn't big enough

Exactly!!! They changed it as soon as Ulster had their magic 18k confirmed.

They didn't change the minimum 18,000 capacity.


The celtic league final used to had to be played in a stadium with a minimum 18,000 capacity.

Still does.

Now I'm confused. Doesn't the article you posted dispute this?

Read the question asked and the response given together.

Pot Hale

Posts : 4638
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 54
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:49 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Fs, that was written before the whole thing was changed, as already said Ulster missed out on hosting it before because the ground wasn't big enough

Exactly!!! They changed it as soon as Ulster had their magic 18k confirmed.

They didn't change the minimum 18,000 capacity.


The celtic league final used to had to be played in a stadium with a minimum 18,000 capacity.

Still does.

Now I'm confused. Doesn't the article you posted dispute this?

I posted the relevant bit in isolation:

Q: What was the set criteria for placing a tender?

A: Other than the stadium size and certain logistical & local cost guarantees, bidding teams had the opportunity to be as imaginative as they like

I'm being very thick here, sorry. Please bear with me. Where does that state that it has to be played in a stadium with 18k capacity?

Dai Llewod

Posts : 218
Join date : 2016-06-03

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Munchkin on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:55 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Fs, that was written before the whole thing was changed, as already said Ulster missed out on hosting it before because the ground wasn't big enough

Exactly!!! They changed it as soon as Ulster had their magic 18k confirmed.

They didn't change the minimum 18,000 capacity.


The celtic league final used to had to be played in a stadium with a minimum 18,000 capacity.

Still does.

Now I'm confused. Doesn't the article you posted dispute this?

I posted the relevant bit in isolation:

Q: What was the set criteria for placing a tender?

A: Other than the stadium size and certain logistical & local cost guarantees, bidding teams had the opportunity to be as imaginative as they like

I'm being very thick here, sorry. Please bear with me. Where does that state that it has to be played in a  stadium with 18k capacity?

Nothing has changed. He is obviously saying that a fixed minimum stadium capacity is a requirement and, since the requirement has always been 18k, there's no indication that the mimimum 18k capacity has been revised. It still stands.

Munchkin

Posts : 6637
Join date : 2012-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Kingshu on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:58 pm

I think the hotel thing is a desire, and not an essential, the min capacity would be an essential.
Which does rule out a lot of teams hosting it, like the Italians, Dragons, Connacht etc

Currently I think that the hosts can only really be.
Liberty Stadium, Cardiff City Stadium, Millennium Stadium
Murrayfield Stadium and Hamden Park
Aviva Stadium, Ravenhill, Thomond Park, RDS
Stadio Olimpico or Stadio Flaminio

Meaning that its the only league grounds that can also host the final are Murrayfield Stadium, Ravenhill, Thomond Park, RDS or Liberty Stadium.

And with Edinburgh trying to move out of Murrayfield, it may only be used for the Final.
Also Ravenhill, RDS, Liberty and Thomond may not be big enough in a few years as well.

Kingshu

Posts : 3118
Join date : 2011-05-30

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 3:59 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Nothing has changed. He is obviously saying that a fixed mimimum stadium capacity is a requirement and, since the requirement has always been 18k, there's no indication that the mimimum 18k capacity has been revised. It still stands.

So when he says:

Tenders were not contingent on the Final being hosted in a PRO12 Club venue with a 18,000 capacity – so all teams and their cities/councils could have tendered

He's really saying "anyone can submit a bid, but if it's less than 18k capacity your bid is likely to get laughed out of town."

And people wonder why the Welsh regions haven't put in a bid?

Dai Llewod

Posts : 218
Join date : 2016-06-03

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:01 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Nothing has changed. He is obviously saying that a fixed mimimum stadium capacity is a requirement and, since the requirement has always been 18k, there's no indication that the mimimum 18k capacity has been revised. It still stands.

So when he says:

Tenders were not contingent on the Final being hosted in a PRO12 Club venue with a 18,000 capacity – so all teams and their cities/councils could have tendered

He's really saying "anyone can submit a bid, but if it's less than 18k capacity your bid is likely to get laughed out of town."

And people wonder why the Welsh regions haven't put in a bid?

Where you not saying 5 mins ago the 18k was a thing? now its not?

marty2086

Posts : 4847
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:01 pm

There are top class hotels across south wales most within reasonable commute of any of the regions grounds, CAP or MS.

The 100k(odd) guarantee would be covered by the first 5,000 tickets so that isn't really a true restrictor either. A batch of tickets for destination finals usually goes on sale prior to any respective season (rugby, soccer, mlb, nfl) whatever the sport and in most cases represents that expected cash cost expected to be incurred in the build up to the desination final itself. Only a minor item and cash neutral as payment not due till long after ticket receipts are taken in.

The most curious item in the articles included in this thread is the one on pro12 and finalists sharing the revenue. My understanding is that the finalists only get the cash for their 2,000 tickets and money towards expenses. Even in the old final being hosted by the highest ranked team, the pro12 takes the cash from the final and that is used for administration/refs/league expenses for the coming year. Maybe that is the commercial aspect not being discussed here, the IRFU and SRU want the honour of hosting the final while the Regions don't want to host an event that they will only ever breakeven from as the profits fund the league (a league that the regions form a third of). MS mightn't be put forward as a destination final venue if they are focused on getting champions league and champions cup finals, again a commercial decision potentially.

I do agree with the comments on here that the pro12 is too young a league for a 'destination final'. I have gone to Paris for HCups not involving my team, I've gone to UEFA finals not involving my team, fa cup finals not involving my team. But I don't think I would yet say that I would go to a pro12 final not involving my team. And I wouldn't want to jinx my team by buying flights/hotel/tickets 10 months in advance. Also being the away team for the final is very tricky as last minute flights and hotels are more expensive, but the pro12 final doesn't have the cache yet to play itself as a destination final. Hopefully soon though.

thebandwagonsociety

Posts : 2149
Join date : 2011-06-02

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:04 pm

PRO 12:  The bid was open to all stakeholders and potential partners (e.g. stadium owners) and there was no requirement that a PRO12 club venue be used, given size & logistical items. Tenders involved stadium size, logistical & cost guarantees and the opportunity to be imaginative.

OSC: By having an 18,000 capacity, are you allowing all teams to tender or penalising those who do not meet the capacity limits?

PRO12: Tenders were not contingent on the Final being hosted in a PRO12 Club venue with a 18,000 capacity – so all teams and their cities/councils could have tendered.

*******

In other words, the stadium size criterion was minimum 18,000 capacity, but it did not have to be a PRO12 club venue that was used in the tender so teams were not restricted from tendering. Hence, Glasgow used Murrayfield, and I presume, if initial report is accurate, it is Leinster using Lansdowne Road, rather than RDS (even though it meets the 18k min capacity but given last year's crowd attendance, the event is getting bigger which is good news.)

Welsh regions should get together with the WRU and bid with the Millennium next time. Or maybe they did this time, we don't know anything about the tenders submitted this year.

Pot Hale

Posts : 4638
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 54
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Munchkin on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:05 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Nothing has changed. He is obviously saying that a fixed mimimum stadium capacity is a requirement and, since the requirement has always been 18k, there's no indication that the mimimum 18k capacity has been revised. It still stands.

So when he says:

Tenders were not contingent on the Final being hosted in a PRO12 Club venue with a 18,000 capacity – so all teams and their cities/councils could have tendered

He's really saying "anyone can submit a bid, but if it's less than 18k capacity your bid is likely to get laughed out of town."

And people wonder why the Welsh regions haven't put in a bid?

Not at all. What the PRO12 rep' is saying is that all are eligible, regardless of stadium capacity, as all can choose a venue that meets that requirement. Connacht can bid, but Connacht will choose a venue with minimum 18k capacity.

Munchkin

Posts : 6637
Join date : 2012-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:06 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Nothing has changed. He is obviously saying that a fixed mimimum stadium capacity is a requirement and, since the requirement has always been 18k, there's no indication that the mimimum 18k capacity has been revised. It still stands.

So when he says:

Tenders were not contingent on the Final being hosted in a PRO12 Club venue with a 18,000 capacity – so all teams and their cities/councils could have tendered

He's really saying "anyone can submit a bid, but if it's less than 18k capacity your bid is likely to get laughed out of town."

And people wonder why the Welsh regions haven't put in a bid?

Where you not saying 5 mins ago the 18k was a thing? now its not?

He's been proven wrong again but has no humility to admit such a thing.

Pot Hale

Posts : 4638
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 54
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:08 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Nothing has changed. He is obviously saying that a fixed mimimum stadium capacity is a requirement and, since the requirement has always been 18k, there's no indication that the mimimum 18k capacity has been revised. It still stands.

So when he says:

Tenders were not contingent on the Final being hosted in a PRO12 Club venue with a 18,000 capacity – so all teams and their cities/councils could have tendered

He's really saying "anyone can submit a bid, but if it's less than 18k capacity your bid is likely to get laughed out of town."

And people wonder why the Welsh regions haven't put in a bid?

Not at all. What the PRO12 rep' is saying is that all are eligible, regardless of stadium capacity, as all can choose a venue that meets that requirement. Connacht can bid, but Connacht will choose a venue with minimum 18k capacity.

It's not regardless of stadium capacity.

Pot Hale

Posts : 4638
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 54
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:11 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Nothing has changed. He is obviously saying that a fixed mimimum stadium capacity is a requirement and, since the requirement has always been 18k, there's no indication that the mimimum 18k capacity has been revised. It still stands.

So when he says:

Tenders were not contingent on the Final being hosted in a PRO12 Club venue with a 18,000 capacity – so all teams and their cities/councils could have tendered

He's really saying "anyone can submit a bid, but if it's less than 18k capacity your bid is likely to get laughed out of town."

And people wonder why the Welsh regions haven't put in a bid?

Not at all. What the PRO12 rep' is saying is that all are eligible, regardless of stadium capacity, as all can choose a venue that meets that requirement. Connacht can bid, but Connacht will choose a venue with minimum 18k capacity.

It's not regardless of stadium capacity.  

I think what Munchkin means is that its regardless of their own stadiums capacity, a team just needs to nominate a ground that meets the criteria so Dragons can select the MS, Connacht the Aviva or Thomond etc

marty2086

Posts : 4847
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:17 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Nothing has changed. He is obviously saying that a fixed mimimum stadium capacity is a requirement and, since the requirement has always been 18k, there's no indication that the mimimum 18k capacity has been revised. It still stands.

So when he says:

Tenders were not contingent on the Final being hosted in a PRO12 Club venue with a 18,000 capacity – so all teams and their cities/councils could have tendered

He's really saying "anyone can submit a bid, but if it's less than 18k capacity your bid is likely to get laughed out of town."

And people wonder why the Welsh regions haven't put in a bid?

Not at all. What the PRO12 rep' is saying is that all are eligible, regardless of stadium capacity, as all can choose a venue that meets that requirement. Connacht can bid, but Connacht will choose a venue with minimum 18k capacity.

It's not regardless of stadium capacity.  

I think what Munchkin means is that its regardless of their own stadiums capacity, a team just needs to nominate a ground that meets the criteria so Dragons can select the MS, Connacht the Aviva or Thomond etc

Correct. I wonder would Connacht nominate Lansdowne Road, or might they look closer to home and see if they could engineer a deal with GAA on Pearse Stadium which is 26,000 capacity?

I'd also wonder if the numbers match or increase on last year's attendance whether they'll set the minimum attendance higher for future years?

Pot Hale

Posts : 4638
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 54
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Munchkin on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:21 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Nothing has changed. He is obviously saying that a fixed mimimum stadium capacity is a requirement and, since the requirement has always been 18k, there's no indication that the mimimum 18k capacity has been revised. It still stands.

So when he says:

Tenders were not contingent on the Final being hosted in a PRO12 Club venue with a 18,000 capacity – so all teams and their cities/councils could have tendered

He's really saying "anyone can submit a bid, but if it's less than 18k capacity your bid is likely to get laughed out of town."

And people wonder why the Welsh regions haven't put in a bid?

Not at all. What the PRO12 rep' is saying is that all are eligible, regardless of stadium capacity, as all can choose a venue that meets that requirement. Connacht can bid, but Connacht will choose a venue with minimum 18k capacity.

It's not regardless of stadium capacity.  

There is no requirement for any team to have an 18k minimum capacity stadium, as any that are below the minimum are free to choose a stadium which meets that requirement.

Munchkin

Posts : 6637
Join date : 2012-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by profitius on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:22 pm

We're not going to see a pro12 final in Wales for a long time. Simply put, the Welsh fans are not interested enough to go along to it. Many of them would rather travel further to watch an English premiership match, as they constantly remind us.

Thats not the fault of the Irish. If you seek answers, look closer to home.

profitius

Posts : 3517
Join date : 2012-01-25

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:28 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:There are top class hotels across south wales most within reasonable commute of any of the regions grounds, CAP or MS.

The 100k(odd) guarantee would be covered by the first 5,000 tickets so that isn't really a true restrictor either.  A batch of tickets for destination finals usually goes on sale prior to any respective season (rugby, soccer, mlb, nfl) whatever the sport and in most cases represents that expected cash cost expected to be incurred in the build up to the desination final itself. Only a minor item and cash neutral as payment not due till long after ticket receipts are taken in.

The most curious item in the articles included in this thread is the one on pro12 and finalists sharing the revenue.  My understanding is that the finalists only get the cash for their 2,000 tickets and money towards expenses.  Even in the old final being hosted by the highest ranked team, the pro12 takes the cash from the final and that is used for administration/refs/league expenses for the coming year.  Maybe that is the commercial aspect not being discussed here, the IRFU and SRU want the honour of hosting the final while the Regions don't want to host an event that they will only ever breakeven from as the profits fund the league (a league that the regions form a third of).  MS mightn't be put forward as a destination final venue if they are focused on getting champions league and champions cup finals, again a commercial decision potentially.

I do agree with the comments on here that the pro12 is too young a league for a 'destination final'.  I have gone to Paris for HCups not involving my team, I've gone to UEFA finals not involving my team, fa cup finals not involving my team.  But I don't think I would yet say that I would go to a pro12 final not involving my team.  And I wouldn't want to jinx my team by buying flights/hotel/tickets 10 months in advance. Also being the away team for the final is very tricky as last minute flights and hotels are more expensive, but the pro12 final doesn't have the cache yet to play itself as a destination final.  Hopefully soon though.

Interesting comments, bandwagon.

Historically, the PRO12 has always maintained that the final belongs to them, and it does seem logical that they would use this as part of their central revenues to develop things like promotion/marketing, referee development, etc. As the event gets bigger in attendance, then it's overall value increases - you're quite right in saying it's still early days. I suspect that if attendance starts hitting 30k+ then the participating teams could rightly argue for more of a return on the event, if they are limited to a certain number of ticket sales now.

Pot Hale

Posts : 4638
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 54
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:29 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Correct.   I wonder would Connacht nominate Lansdowne Road, or might they look closer to home and see if they could engineer a deal with GAA on Pearse Stadium which is 26,000 capacity?  

I'd also wonder if the numbers match or increase on last year's attendance whether they'll set the minimum attendance higher for future years?  

Its as much luck as anything, if you get the wrong teams making it to the final and their fans aren't bothered about travelling you're screwed

Pearse would be an interesting choice but would Galway appeal to the neutral like Dublin?
How many will go this year for a jolly?
Though Im sure that a night out in Galway is just as good, Dublin has the PR advantage

The chances are we probably won't see a Connacht bid anytime soon, though probably before a Welsh one at this rate Rolling Eyes

marty2086

Posts : 4847
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Irish Londoner on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:29 pm

In terms of choosing a ground, is there an issue regarding a preference for a rugby stadium rather than "borrowing" a football or GAA stadium as paying the rent is taking money out of the game. So a final held at Union or Club owned stadium would keep the money in rugby.

This isn't just a PRO12 thing - for example when Saracens got to the HEC semis in 2014, the RFU made them play at Twickenham as Allianz Park was too small and Saracens were looking at using a football stadium but were overruled.


Irish Londoner

Posts : 1058
Join date : 2011-07-10
Age : 54
Location : Wakefield

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:32 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Nothing has changed. He is obviously saying that a fixed mimimum stadium capacity is a requirement and, since the requirement has always been 18k, there's no indication that the mimimum 18k capacity has been revised. It still stands.

So when he says:

Tenders were not contingent on the Final being hosted in a PRO12 Club venue with a 18,000 capacity – so all teams and their cities/councils could have tendered

He's really saying "anyone can submit a bid, but if it's less than 18k capacity your bid is likely to get laughed out of town."

And people wonder why the Welsh regions haven't put in a bid?

Not at all. What the PRO12 rep' is saying is that all are eligible, regardless of stadium capacity, as all can choose a venue that meets that requirement. Connacht can bid, but Connacht will choose a venue with minimum 18k capacity.

It's not regardless of stadium capacity.  

There is no requirement for any team to have an 18k minimum capacity stadium, as any that are below the minimum are free to choose a stadium which meets that requirement.

Correct - no requirement for any team to have their own PRO12 venue to be an 18k minimum stadium as they can bid with other venues.

Pot Hale

Posts : 4638
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 54
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:39 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:In terms of choosing a ground, is there an issue regarding a preference for a rugby stadium rather than "borrowing" a football or GAA stadium as paying the rent is taking money out of the game. So a final held at Union or Club owned stadium would keep the money in rugby.

This isn't just a PRO12 thing - for example when Saracens got to the HEC semis in 2014, the RFU made them play at Twickenham as Allianz Park was too small and Saracens were looking at using a football stadium but were overruled.


Don't Saints use Stadium MK for their HEC/ERCC knockout games though?

marty2086

Posts : 4847
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:39 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Correct.   I wonder would Connacht nominate Lansdowne Road, or might they look closer to home and see if they could engineer a deal with GAA on Pearse Stadium which is 26,000 capacity?  

I'd also wonder if the numbers match or increase on last year's attendance whether they'll set the minimum attendance higher for future years?  

Its as much luck as anything, if you get the wrong teams making it to the final and their fans aren't bothered about travelling you're screwed

Pearse would be an interesting choice but would Galway appeal to the neutral like Dublin?
How many will go this year for a jolly?
Though Im sure that a night out in Galway is just as good, Dublin has the PR advantage

The chances are we probably won't see a Connacht bid anytime soon, though probably before a Welsh one at this rate Rolling Eyes

I'd go for a final in Galway in a heartbeat - brilliant city for a weekend. Easy enough to fly into as well and far less congested than Dublin.

Agree with you on the teams making it to the final and location. That's where growing it as a destination final comes in. And despite the usual suspects airing their grievances on here, I do think it needs to happen in Cardiff next season - almost no matter what. And then Rome the following year.

Pot Hale

Posts : 4638
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 54
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by marty2086 on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:42 pm

If they don't bid though what can you do?

I like the idea of having it in Rome but giving the state of the Italian teams I think you end up putting a big burden on fans

Can you imagine the complaining on here if a Welsh team made it to a final in Rome?

marty2086

Posts : 4847
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 30
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:48 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:In terms of choosing a ground, is there an issue regarding a preference for a rugby stadium rather than "borrowing" a football or GAA stadium as paying the rent is taking money out of the game. So a final held at Union or Club owned stadium would keep the money in rugby.

This isn't just a PRO12 thing - for example when Saracens got to the HEC semis in 2014, the RFU made them play at Twickenham as Allianz Park was too small and Saracens were looking at using a football stadium but were overruled.


It's a fair point.  Whilst we only have reports of the first year's criteria/requirements, the PRO 12 did put an emphasis on creative and imaginative proposals.

So, I would read that as making the final part of a wider public attraction that would generate more buzz/excitement and interest around it, and more exposure would be looked on favourably.  So for example, if Connacht were to bid for it, they could deliberately plan it with another event e.g. Tall Ships Race or Seafest Weekend.  Having a municipal authority involved helps with this kind of collaboration and a deal done with local GAA to use the stadium at a reasonable cost.   It would help to grow the game in Connacht, and IRFU might be supportive of that.


Last edited by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

Pot Hale

Posts : 4638
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 54
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:52 pm

marty2086 wrote:If they don't bid though what can you do?

I like the idea of having it in Rome but giving the state of the Italian teams I think you end up putting a big burden on fans

Can you imagine the complaining on here if a Welsh team made it to a final in Rome?

If there were any complaints, I suspect they'd last as long as the flight to get there.

I'd happily plan a bonanza weekend in Rome in May at the start of the season. Ideally it becomes an event that fans of all hues and colours attend, not just restricted to the finalists or countries involved in playing.

Pot Hale

Posts : 4638
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 54
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 4:56 pm

marty2086 wrote:If they don't bid though what can you do?

I like the idea of having it in Rome but giving the state of the Italian teams I think you end up putting a big burden on fans

Can you imagine the complaining on here if a Welsh team made it to a final in Rome?

I think the Welsh regions and WRU would need to be "strongly encouraged" to bid for it. They've proven they can brilliantly market an event like Judgement Day, so it ain't rocket science.

Pot Hale

Posts : 4638
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 54
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Dai Llewod on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 5:53 pm

Why would say, the Scarlets put in a bid to have a game which they might not be involved in, hosted in a city at the other end of the country, when they have a 15,000 stadium of their own to try and upkeep?

Only in the Pro12 would we be even close to discussing such a nonsensical notion.

Dai Llewod

Posts : 218
Join date : 2016-06-03

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by wolfball on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 6:35 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:In terms of choosing a ground, is there an issue regarding a preference for a rugby stadium rather than "borrowing" a football or GAA stadium as paying the rent is taking money out of the game. So a final held at Union or Club owned stadium would keep the money in rugby.

This isn't just a PRO12 thing - for example when Saracens got to the HEC semis in 2014, the RFU made them play at Twickenham as Allianz Park was too small and Saracens were looking at using a football stadium but were overruled.


The Galway and Mayo GAA branches recently ruled out any use of Galway stadia (or McHale park in Mayo) by Connacht, as the current pan GAA rules state that Croke Park is allowed be used by rugby, and non-croke park GAA stadia are allowed be used for rugby internationals (RWC bid) but provincial teams are not allowed use any GAA ground that isn't croke park. It would need a GAA central branch vote to change this, and supposedly there are no motions to make this happen anytime soon.

wolfball

Posts : 838
Join date : 2011-08-18
Age : 32

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 6:36 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:Why would say, the Scarlets put in a bid to have a game which they might not be involved in, hosted in a city at the other end of the country, when they have a 15,000 stadium of their own to try and upkeep?

Only in the Pro12 would we be even close to discussing such a nonsensical notion.

I'm sorry but you were the one trawling the line that Welsh rugby should get an opportunity to host the final.

How far away is Scarlets home stadium from the city you're referring to?

And if previous finals have attracted attendances of 18k plus, why would you want to host one in a stadium that is too small for the showpiece event at this point?


Pot Hale

Posts : 4638
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 54
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Munchkin on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 6:37 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:Why would say, the Scarlets put in a bid to have a game which they might not be involved in, hosted in a city at the other end of the country, when they have a 15,000 stadium of their own to try and upkeep?

Only in the Pro12 would we be even close to discussing such a nonsensical notion.

You keep looking for excuses to complain and that is a very poor one. There are three stadia the Regions could use (PMS - CAP - Liberty), and it isn't as though any of the Regions fans would have to travel far to get to any.


Munchkin

Posts : 6637
Join date : 2012-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 22 Aug 2016, 6:39 pm

wolfball wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:In terms of choosing a ground, is there an issue regarding a preference for a rugby stadium rather than "borrowing" a football or GAA stadium as paying the rent is taking money out of the game. So a final held at Union or Club owned stadium would keep the money in rugby.

This isn't just a PRO12 thing - for example when Saracens got to the HEC semis in 2014, the RFU made them play at Twickenham as Allianz Park was too small and Saracens were looking at using a football stadium but were overruled.


The Galway and Mayo GAA branches recently ruled out any use of Galway stadia (or McHale park in Mayo) by Connacht, as the current pan GAA rules state that Croke Park is allowed be used by rugby, and non-croke park GAA stadia are allowed be used for rugby internationals (RWC bid) but provincial teams are not allowed use any GAA ground that isn't croke park. It would need a GAA central branch vote to change this, and supposedly there are no motions to make this happen anytime soon.

I wasn't aware of that, Wolfball. That's unfortunate. Do you think they could organise a motion if Connacht wanted to pursue that or is it too much grief?

Pot Hale

Posts : 4638
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 54
Location : Dublhkining

Back to top Go down

Re: 2016/17 Pro12 Final to be held in Dublin

Post by Sponsored content Today at 5:41 am


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum