Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

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Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by Dai Llewod on Tue 23 Aug 2016, 6:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

A good move by PRO12, one which is to be applauded.


Martin Anayi:
“Ultimately, if you are listening to a match on television and you hear an Irish TMO speaking at a match in Ireland, as happened with Connacht versus the Ospreys, you are going to to think they are biased, even though we know they are not.”

WalesOnline.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 11:51 am

Irish Londoner wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:Anybody know why the fixtures on the Pro12 website contain adverts to buy tickets to Ulster's home games, but no other teams?

http://www.pro12rugby.com/fixtures/

I guess they'll be updating the rest of the home fixtures in time.

I've just opened the link and it's got tickets for the final on there. You do know that some websites read cookies on your PC and then base advertising on your browsing history, so if you have been spending a lot of time on Ulster's website that's what would pop up ?

Are you a secret Ulster fan Dai ? Run

+1 only advert for the grand final. might be customised or recently updated, or rotating around a number of adverts. Or possibly a Pro'12 show of favouritism.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by marty2086 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 11:53 am

Dai Llewod wrote:It's a good step. The league should be applauded for it. Unfortunately the thread has gone completely off the rails because the usual certain posters have decided that it is "Welsh fans" that were the cause of the problem. Same s*** different day.

Says the man that ignores the stated reason given by the man taking the decision and says its obviously not that

Diferent name same Dai/Chunky/Phil

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 11:55 am

Munchkin wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Prefer to see the use of TMO cease altogether. Suppose it helps a little.

When a TMO identifies foul play on an Irish player I bet you're of a different opinion - and you lot aren't as keen on receiving as you are giving, are ya?

You're way of base. I have seen bad calls by TMO's from all four nations involved in PRO12, and those from other leagues. Not that it happens all the time, just that it happens. My biggest complaint with the use of TMO is the time it eats up. And then there are refs who bottle calls by leaving it up to the TMO to make the call.

P.s it's "your lot" that complains most about TMO.

Yes I agree, so rather than scrap the TMO they should take steps to improve how they operate. The ref's as you've pointed out also need to be more assertive and overrule the TMO, Owens would be a good example.

Have my lot actually done that? I thought it was something more specific like the lack of a neutral TMO. The whole officiating team (ref, TMO, assistants) for me haven't been good enough during the last few seasons of pro 12 rugby.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by Munchkin on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 11:56 am

Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Anayi also spent time last season going round all the clubs and speaking with different people at the club, Im sure he picked up a few complaints in that time from the Welsh people he spoke with

Looks like those Welsh people had a good case then eh?

No, it looks like he's addressing unfounded claims. He doesn't agree with those claims. Anayi sees the bias of the fans, not the TMO's....

Why on earth would he need to spend £150,000 addressing claims, if they were "unfounded"?

Can you not read? Read what he actually said and, when you realise that it is the bias of fans he's tackling, write to him and complain about the waste of money.

So he will spend £150,000 tackling any unfounded claim then? You point is ridiculous. The league took action because there was a problem. Not to shut a few fans up.

That isn't what he said, as much as you would like it to be. Read what he said.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by Dai Llewod on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 11:59 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:Anybody know why the fixtures on the Pro12 website contain adverts to buy tickets to Ulster's home games, but no other teams?

http://www.pro12rugby.com/fixtures/

I guess they'll be updating the rest of the home fixtures in time.

I've just opened the link and it's got tickets for the final on there. You do know that some websites read cookies on your PC and then base advertising on your browsing history, so if you have been spending a lot of time on Ulster's website that's what would pop up ?

Are you a secret Ulster fan Dai ? Run

+1 only advert for the grand final. might be customised or recently updated, or rotating around a number of adverts. Or possibly a Pro'12 show of favouritism.

It's right there, plain to see. Under the Ulster home fixtures.

I'm sure all the teams will have adverts for ticket sales underneath their fixtures by the end of the week though. I expect Ulster are just first to get in there.


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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by Munchkin on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:02 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Prefer to see the use of TMO cease altogether. Suppose it helps a little.

When a TMO identifies foul play on an Irish player I bet you're of a different opinion - and you lot aren't as keen on receiving as you are giving, are ya?

You're way of base. I have seen bad calls by TMO's from all four nations involved in PRO12, and those from other leagues. Not that it happens all the time, just that it happens. My biggest complaint with the use of TMO is the time it eats up. And then there are refs who bottle calls by leaving it up to the TMO to make the call.

P.s it's "your lot" that complains most about TMO.

Yes I agree, so rather than scrap the TMO they should take steps to improve how they operate. The ref's as you've pointed out also need to be more assertive and overrule the TMO, Owens would be a good example.

Have my lot actually done that? I thought it was something more specific like the lack of a neutral TMO. The whole officiating team (ref, TMO, assistants) for me haven't been good enough during the last few seasons of pro 12 rugby.

Yes, it was specific to use of a neutral TMO, mikey. Hopefully that will be a thing of the past now.

If they can raise the standard of TMO, if they can ensure refs don't bottle calls by leaving it to the TMO and if they can somehow minimise the time it takes to use TMO, I will be happy enough. It is doable, and PRO12 are definitely moving in the right direction.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by Munchkin on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:03 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:Anybody know why the fixtures on the Pro12 website contain adverts to buy tickets to Ulster's home games, but no other teams?

http://www.pro12rugby.com/fixtures/

I guess they'll be updating the rest of the home fixtures in time.

I've just opened the link and it's got tickets for the final on there. You do know that some websites read cookies on your PC and then base advertising on your browsing history, so if you have been spending a lot of time on Ulster's website that's what would pop up ?

Are you a secret Ulster fan Dai ? Run

+1 only advert for the grand final. might be customised or recently updated, or rotating around a number of adverts. Or possibly a Pro'12 show of favouritism.

It's right there, plain to see. Under the Ulster home fixtures.

I'm sure all the teams will have adverts for ticket sales underneath their fixtures by the end of the week though. I expect Ulster are just first to get in there.


Have you tried deleting all your cookies and having another look?

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:05 pm

Taken from the walesonline article;
anayi wrote:
We already have neutral referees for 70% of the games but, to have all neutral referees, we need more from Scotland and Italy. That takes money, investment and time.

“That’s what the unions are doing and, until we get to three years time, we are going to have a neutral assistant referee and a neutral TMO for all matches.

“Ultimately, if you are listening to a match on television and you hear an Irish TMO speaking at a match in Ireland, as happened with Connacht versus the Ospreys, you are going to to think they are biased, even though we know they are not.”

So we are 3 years out from having fully neutral officiating teams. But they will have a neutral TMO. So the ref and linesman might not be neutral.

So when Leinster play at Scarlets, and the gibbon or some other second rate irish ref is on the field, and any half decent scottish or italian official should be reffing another fixture, he is going to refer a play to a TMO to some italian lad in broken english through sh!te who won't be able to communicate a results or check the right thing. Sounds fab.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:06 pm

Munchkin wrote:It is doable, and PRO12 are definitely moving in the right direction.

I agree, but how do you see the Pro12 moving in the right direction ? In your opinion, what changes have been made that have moved us in the right direction ?

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by marty2086 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:08 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Taken from the walesonline article;
anayi wrote:
We already have neutral referees for 70% of the games but, to have all neutral referees, we need more from Scotland and Italy. That takes money, investment and time.

“That’s what the unions are doing and, until we get to three years time, we are going to have a neutral assistant referee and a neutral TMO for all matches.

“Ultimately, if you are listening to a match on television and you hear an Irish TMO speaking at a match in Ireland, as happened with Connacht versus the Ospreys, you are going to to think they are biased, even though we know they are not.”

So we are 3 years out from having fully neutral officiating teams. But they will have a neutral TMO.  So the ref and linesman might not be neutral.

So when Leinster play at Scarlets, and the gibbon or some other second rate irish ref is on the field, and any half decent scottish or italian official should be reffing another fixture, he is going to refer a play to a TMO to some italian lad in broken english through sh!te who won't be able to communicate a results or check the right thing.  Sounds fab.

picard

And no matter what happens some idiots will always complain

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by Munchkin on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:17 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:It is doable, and PRO12 are definitely moving in the right direction.

I agree, but how do you see the Pro12 moving in the right direction ? In your opinion, what changes have been made that have moved us in the right direction ?

I think tackling bias, however unfounded, is the right thing to do. It makes for a better product when the fans have less to complain about, and so neutral TMO's is a step in the right direction.

I also believe the changes to where the final is played as moving in the right direction, and possibly holding all finals in national stadia. I did have doubts about changing the league to a conference system, but now think it's for the best, as well as possibly expanding into the US. The US could be a big money spinner.
Drastically reducing Sunday fixtures is also a massive help.

So far, I'm really happy with what Anayi is bringing to PRO12. We are falling behind the other leagues, and change is vital if we are to compete with AP/T14.


Last edited by Munchkin on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by Dai Llewod on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:17 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Have you tried deleting all your cookies and having another look?

It's nothing to do with cookies. Have a look at the Ulster v Ospreys fixture details (1 October 2016) on the Pro12 fixture list. Tell me what you see.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by Munchkin on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:20 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Have you tried deleting all your cookies and having another look?

It's nothing to do with cookies. Have a look at the Ulster v Ospreys fixture details (1 October 2016) on the Pro12 fixture list. Tell me what you see.

I have an add blocker, but will take a look on another server.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:21 pm

Munchkin wrote:I think tackling bias, however unfounded, is the right thing to do. It makes for a better product when the fans have less to complain about, and so neutral TMO's is a step in the right direction.

This is the main sticking point for me and where you and I differ. Tackling bias, however unfounded, is needed, but I do not think the nationality of the officials should come into it, I think the employment of the officials is the biggest issue. That is what I would like to see change.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by marty2086 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:25 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I think tackling bias, however unfounded, is the right thing to do. It makes for a better product when the fans have less to complain about, and so neutral TMO's is a step in the right direction.

This is the main sticking point for me and where you and I differ. Tackling bias, however unfounded, is needed, but I do not think the nationality of the officials should come into it, I think the employment of the officials is the biggest issue. That is what I would like to see change.

What you keep ignoring is that the league cannot do anything about who employs the refs as World Rugby dictates they have to belong to a union, even if the league employed them for league games the unions would still be their employer/designation for tests so it makes no difference

You think because the unions wouldn't employ them there wouldn't be accusations of bias still?

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by Dai Llewod on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:30 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I think tackling bias, however unfounded, is the right thing to do. It makes for a better product when the fans have less to complain about, and so neutral TMO's is a step in the right direction.

This is the main sticking point for me and where you and I differ. Tackling bias, however unfounded, is needed, but I do not think the nationality of the officials should come into it, I think the employment of the officials is the biggest issue. That is what I would like to see change.

What you keep ignoring is that the league cannot do anything about who employs the refs as World Rugby dictates they have to belong to a union, even if the league employed them for league games the unions would still be their employer/designation for tests so it makes no difference

You think because the unions wouldn't employ them there wouldn't be accusations of bias still?

The point is that the referees are employed by the same organisation as (some of the players) and they're playign against players that aren't employed by that organisation. That doesn't happen in any other league in the world as far as I'm aware. This is a far bigger issue than the TMO thing. But it won't be addressed, because it's a Union run league.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by Munchkin on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:30 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Have you tried deleting all your cookies and having another look?

It's nothing to do with cookies. Have a look at the Ulster v Ospreys fixture details (1 October 2016) on the Pro12 fixture list. Tell me what you see.

You're right. Only Ulster have tickets link. Maybe they pay for it? Good that the link is there, just don't know why Ulster are the only one.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by Munchkin on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:31 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I think tackling bias, however unfounded, is the right thing to do. It makes for a better product when the fans have less to complain about, and so neutral TMO's is a step in the right direction.

This is the main sticking point for me and where you and I differ. Tackling bias, however unfounded, is needed, but I do not think the nationality of the officials should come into it, I think the employment of the officials is the biggest issue. That is what I would like to see change.

You're right. We do disagree.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by marty2086 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:32 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I think tackling bias, however unfounded, is the right thing to do. It makes for a better product when the fans have less to complain about, and so neutral TMO's is a step in the right direction.

This is the main sticking point for me and where you and I differ. Tackling bias, however unfounded, is needed, but I do not think the nationality of the officials should come into it, I think the employment of the officials is the biggest issue. That is what I would like to see change.

What you keep ignoring is that the league cannot do anything about who employs the refs as World Rugby dictates they have to belong to a union, even if the league employed them for league games the unions would still be their employer/designation for tests so it makes no difference

You think because the unions wouldn't employ them there wouldn't be accusations of bias still?

The point is that the referees are employed by the same organisation as (some of the players) and they're playign against players that aren't employed by that organisation. That doesn't happen in any other league in the world as far as I'm aware. This is a far bigger issue than the TMO thing. But it won't be addressed, because it's a Union run league.

You mean except every league in the world as your alter egos have been told before

The RFU employ the Elite players of the England squad and the refs, same in France, Super Rugby sees teams from the different nations reffing teams from that nation

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:33 pm

marty2086 wrote:What you keep ignoring is that the league cannot do anything about who employs the refs as World Rugby dictates they have to belong to a union, even if the league employed them for league games the unions would still be their employer/designation for tests so it makes no difference

And that is why I called it a sticking point. The credibility of the league comes under massive scrutiny to anyone outside union controlled teams and officials when they see this issue. But at least Martin Anayi is trying something which should be applauded.

marty2086 wrote:You think because the unions wouldn't employ them there wouldn't be accusations of bias still?


This is why I think the nationality of the officials should never come into it. You will always get these calls, you get it everywhere, we see it in Wales, people think Nigel Owen is biased towards Scarlets as that is where he lives. At least we would not have the same employers for officials and the teams they are supposed to be impartial to. Where is the credibility in that ?

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by marty2086 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:What you keep ignoring is that the league cannot do anything about who employs the refs as World Rugby dictates they have to belong to a union, even if the league employed them for league games the unions would still be their employer/designation for tests so it makes no difference

And that is why I called it a sticking point. The credibility of the league comes under massive scrutiny to anyone outside union controlled teams and officials when they see this issue. But at least Martin Anayi is trying something which should be applauded.

marty2086 wrote:You think because the unions wouldn't employ them there wouldn't be accusations of bias still?


This is why I think the nationality of the officials should never come into it. You will always get these calls, you get it everywhere, we see it in Wales, people think Nigel Owen is biased towards Scarlets as that is where he lives. At least we would not have the same employers for officials and the teams they are supposed to be impartial to. Where is the credibility in that ?

Its all the same issue, accusations of bias without foundation


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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by Dai Llewod on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:39 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Have you tried deleting all your cookies and having another look?

It's nothing to do with cookies. Have a look at the Ulster v Ospreys fixture details (1 October 2016) on the Pro12 fixture list. Tell me what you see.

You're right. Only Ulster have tickets link. Maybe they pay for it? Good that the link is there, just don't know why Ulster are the only one.

Thanks. I'm sure all the other teams will have their links up soon.

The Pro12 final and the Irish provinces all have their tickets supplied Online by the same company. So lets hope that's not a barrier and that all teams will have their online tickets advertised just like Ulster do at the moment.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:40 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Have you tried deleting all your cookies and having another look?

It's nothing to do with cookies. Have a look at the Ulster v Ospreys fixture details (1 October 2016) on the Pro12 fixture list. Tell me what you see.

You're right. Only Ulster have tickets link. Maybe they pay for it? Good that the link is there, just don't know why Ulster are the only one.

Thanks. I'm sure all the other teams will have their links up soon.

The Pro12 final and the Irish provinces all have their tickets supplied Online by the same company. So lets hope that's not a barrier and that all teams will have their online tickets advertised just like Ulster do at the moment.

You should ask the website why. Seems strange as you say that the other Irish teams don't which suggests Ulster have been proactive?

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by Dai Llewod on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:41 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I think tackling bias, however unfounded, is the right thing to do. It makes for a better product when the fans have less to complain about, and so neutral TMO's is a step in the right direction.

This is the main sticking point for me and where you and I differ. Tackling bias, however unfounded, is needed, but I do not think the nationality of the officials should come into it, I think the employment of the officials is the biggest issue. That is what I would like to see change.

What you keep ignoring is that the league cannot do anything about who employs the refs as World Rugby dictates they have to belong to a union, even if the league employed them for league games the unions would still be their employer/designation for tests so it makes no difference

You think because the unions wouldn't employ them there wouldn't be accusations of bias still?

The point is that the referees are employed by the same organisation as (some of the players) and they're playign against players that aren't employed by that organisation. That doesn't happen in any other league in the world as far as I'm aware. This is a far bigger issue than the TMO thing. But it won't be addressed, because it's a Union run league.

You mean except every league in the world as your alter egos have been told before

The RFU employ the Elite players of the England squad and the refs, same in France, Super Rugby sees teams from the different nations reffing teams from that nation
Eh? No idea what you are on about sorry.

The RFU employed referees officiate players that are employed by 2 different clubs. Surely that doesn't need pointing out to you? Same in France.

The Super rugby point is a good one, I don't watch much of it so can't comment, do they not try to get neutral referees to officiate in matches?

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:46 pm

In the terms of the original article neutral is down to nationality as well.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:54 pm

marty2086 wrote: Super Rugby sees teams from the different nations reffing teams from that nation

Aren't all super rugby franchises union owned ? If so, it does not really matter if the refs are employed by the unions as well. It is different in the Pro12, we have union owned clubs and privately owned clubs, thats the difference. OK

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by marty2086 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:54 pm

Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Dai Llewod wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I think tackling bias, however unfounded, is the right thing to do. It makes for a better product when the fans have less to complain about, and so neutral TMO's is a step in the right direction.

This is the main sticking point for me and where you and I differ. Tackling bias, however unfounded, is needed, but I do not think the nationality of the officials should come into it, I think the employment of the officials is the biggest issue. That is what I would like to see change.

What you keep ignoring is that the league cannot do anything about who employs the refs as World Rugby dictates they have to belong to a union, even if the league employed them for league games the unions would still be their employer/designation for tests so it makes no difference

You think because the unions wouldn't employ them there wouldn't be accusations of bias still?

The point is that the referees are employed by the same organisation as (some of the players) and they're playign against players that aren't employed by that organisation. That doesn't happen in any other league in the world as far as I'm aware. This is a far bigger issue than the TMO thing. But it won't be addressed, because it's a Union run league.

You mean except every league in the world as your alter egos have been told before

The RFU employ the Elite players of the England squad and the refs, same in France, Super Rugby sees teams from the different nations reffing teams from that nation
Eh? No idea what you are on about sorry.

The RFU employed referees officiate players that are employed by 2 different clubs. Surely that doesn't need pointing out to you? Same in France.

The Super rugby point is a good one, I don't watch much of it so can't comment, do they not try to get neutral referees to officiate in matches?

Yeah sure you don't know

It needs translating not pointing out

Players in the EPS are paid by the RFU for the duration of that contract, therefore they are paid by the same people who pay the refs the same issue that you and others raise about Union run teams

Whats to stop an English ref not showing a red card to an EPS player in case the RFU decide to demote him? Or even if they weren't paid by the same people the same issue exists

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by marty2086 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:55 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote: Super Rugby sees teams from the different nations reffing teams from that nation

Aren't all super rugby franchises union owned ? If so, it does not really matter if the refs are employed by the unions as well. It is different in the Pro12, we have union owned clubs and privately owned clubs, thats the difference. OK

Union owned privately run

Different unions too

So what will fix the pro12 is for the regions to be taken over by the WRU?

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 12:58 pm

marty2086 wrote:Players in the EPS are paid by the RFU for the duration of that contract

Are they ? Their whole contract ? Are you sure ?

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:00 pm

marty2086 wrote:Union owned privately run

So the same as the Pro12 union controlled teams then ?

marty2086 wrote:Different unions too

So the same as the Pro12 union controlled teams then ?

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by marty2086 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:01 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Players in the EPS are paid by the RFU for the duration of that contract

Are they ? Their whole contract ? Are you sure ?

Yes they are paid a flat fee plus match fees which is about £25k a game

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by marty2086 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Union owned privately run

So the same as the Pro12 union controlled teams then ?

marty2086 wrote:Different unions too

So the same as the Pro12 union controlled teams then ?

Why are you telling me, its Dai that seems to think otherwise

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:05 pm

marty2086 wrote:Yes they are paid a flat fee plus match fees which is about £25k a game

Yes I know, I found this on-line, yet I cannot find a single reference to the RFU employing the elite players. That is why I asked if you were sure.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:11 pm

marty2086 wrote:Why are you telling me, its Dai that seems to think otherwise

Yes, but what point are you trying to make ?

We are both saying that union controlled refs and teams are an issue. You have, said it is not an issue for super rugby, and you are correct, and that is because everything and everyone are employed by the unions.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:28 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Players in the EPS are paid by the RFU for the duration of that contract

Are they ? Their whole contract ? Are you sure ?

Yes they are paid a flat fee plus match fees which is about £25k a game

Are they really paid a flat fee?

The players get their monthly salary from their club, then they would get a match fee of £15k (£7k for playing, £7k for Image rights, £1k for training). They had asked that the new contract to be increased to £25k - not sure if that has happened, but would apply to matches post July 1st. PErformance bonuses and touring payments also made - but as far as I know there is no flat fee for being in th eEPS.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by marty2086 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:31 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Yes they are paid a flat fee plus match fees which is about £25k a game

Yes I know, I found this on-line, yet I cannot find a single reference to the RFU employing the elite players. That is why I asked if you were sure.

So you know they have a contract?

You know they get paid?

But can't find proof they are employed by the RFU? Really? Erm

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by marty2086 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:33 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Players in the EPS are paid by the RFU for the duration of that contract

Are they ? Their whole contract ? Are you sure ?

Yes they are paid a flat fee plus match fees which is about £25k a game

Are they really paid a flat fee?

The players get their monthly salary from their club, then they would get a match fee of £15k (£7k for playing, £7k for Image rights, £1k for training). They had asked that the new contract to be increased to £25k - not sure if that has happened, but would apply to matches post July 1st. PErformance bonuses and touring payments also made - but as far as I know there is no flat fee for being in th eEPS.

Maybe you are right and its all in the match fees but I always thought there was a base salary they received that covered training camps and any other duties they were required for


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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:34 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Players in the EPS are paid by the RFU for the duration of that contract

Are they ? Their whole contract ? Are you sure ?

Yes they are paid a flat fee plus match fees which is about £25k a game

Are they really paid a flat fee?

The players get their monthly salary from their club, then they would get a match fee of £15k (£7k for playing, £7k for Image rights, £1k for training). They had asked that the new contract to be increased to £25k - not sure if that has happened, but would apply to matches post July 1st. PErformance bonuses and touring payments also made - but as far as I know there is no flat fee for being in th eEPS.

That is exactly as I saw it, so it looks as though marty needs to apologise to Dai Llewod.

I am glad an Englishman came on here to put things right. OK

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by marty2086 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:37 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Players in the EPS are paid by the RFU for the duration of that contract

Are they ? Their whole contract ? Are you sure ?

Yes they are paid a flat fee plus match fees which is about £25k a game

Are they really paid a flat fee?

The players get their monthly salary from their club, then they would get a match fee of £15k (£7k for playing, £7k for Image rights, £1k for training). They had asked that the new contract to be increased to £25k - not sure if that has happened, but would apply to matches post July 1st. PErformance bonuses and touring payments also made - but as far as I know there is no flat fee for being in th eEPS.

That is exactly as I saw it, so it looks as though marty needs to apologise to Dai Llewod.

I am glad an Englishman came on here to put things right. OK

How would I need to apologise?

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by George Carlin on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:37 pm

I can't believe that I have to red pen a thread whose subject matter is facilitating fairness, but please can we cease the ongoing todger comparison jamboree?

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:43 pm

George Carlin wrote:but please can we cease the ongoing todger comparison jamboree?

What ongoing todger comparison jamboree? There was never any need for the red pen. OK

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:48 pm

marty2086 wrote:How would I need to apologise?

For this:-

marty2086 wrote:You mean except every league in the world as your alter egos have been told before

The RFU employ the Elite players of the England squad and the refs, same in France, Super Rugby sees teams from the different nations reffing teams from that nation

You have accused another member of having multiple usernames and used inaccurate information to back up your claims.



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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by marty2086 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:49 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:How would I need to apologise?

For this:-

marty2086 wrote:You mean except every league in the world as your alter egos have been told before

The RFU employ the Elite players of the England squad and the refs, same in France, Super Rugby sees teams from the different nations reffing teams from that nation

You have accused another member of having multiple usernames and used inaccurate information to back up your claims.


Where is my information inaccurate?

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:50 pm

Some English players receive money from the RFU as do refs. Some Welsh players get money from the WRU as do refs. If you believe that leads to bias for the Irish it's the same thing. I'm with Anayi that it doesn't. Shame he feels that money needs to be spent on something to improve bickering rather than pumping it into training etc really.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by marty2086 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Some English players receive money from the RFU as do refs. Some Welsh players get money from the WRU as do refs. If you believe that leads to bias for the Irish it's the same thing. I'm with Anayi that it doesn't. Shame he feels that money needs to be spent on something to improve bickering rather than pumping it into training etc really.

clap

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:53 pm

marty2086 wrote:Where is my information inaccurate?

This:-

marty2086 wrote:The RFU employ the Elite players of the England squad

Anyway, enough with this or otherwise george will be getting his red pen out. Very Happy

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:54 pm

And in general the Aviva, Pro 12, 14 and Super Rugby should try and sort out some refs being swapped for portions of the season. Would benefit everyone, players and refs.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by marty2086 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:54 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Where is my information inaccurate?

This:-

marty2086 wrote:The RFU employ the Elite players of the England squad

Anyway, enough with this or otherwise george will be getting his red pen out. Very Happy

So they just have a contract and get paid by them but aren't employed by them? This is your stance?

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 1:57 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Some English players receive money from the RFU as do refs. Some Welsh players get money from the WRU as do refs. If you believe that leads to bias for the Irish it's the same thing. I'm with Anayi that it doesn't. Shame he feels that money needs to be spent on something to improve bickering rather than pumping it into training etc really.

The standard/perceived bias of refs in the PRO12 has been raised by fans and coaches. It is an issue for the league and making officials more neutral is a good move. Bickering over who did what in the past is a waste of time.

It's what is going to happen in future is the important bit. Anayi has taken the right decision in my view.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 24 Aug 2016, 2:00 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Some English players receive money from the RFU as do refs. Some Welsh players get money from the WRU as do refs. If you believe that leads to bias for the Irish it's the same thing. I'm with Anayi that it doesn't. Shame he feels that money needs to be spent on something to improve bickering rather than pumping it into training etc really.

The standard/perceived bias of refs in the PRO12 has been raised by fans and coaches. It is an issue for the league and making officials more neutral is a good move. Bickering over who did what in the past is a waste of time.

It's what is going to happen in future is the important bit. Anayi has taken the right decision in my view.

Just a shame the money can't be used in a more postitive manner.

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Re: Pro12 introduces neutral TMOs

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