Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

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Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 8:39 am

Well, what do we all think of this then ? It looks as though the second tier of European rugby has become even more pointless. The governing body of European professional club rugby have decided to take the prize of automatic qualification from the second tier comp in favour of a league playoff, another game or two to add to an already long enough season. Why don't they just scrap the second tier comp altogether ? It is a farce, the English and French do not take it seriously anymore, and the lies peddled out at the start, about marketing it more, making it more competitive and making it more prestigious are starting to rise to the surface.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/european-champions-cup-spot-scrapped-11794440


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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 8:45 am

Old news in a way, as it was scrapped right at the start.

EPCR then re-introduced it, but it seems that the Pro12 have insisted the play-offs be returned.



Last edited by LondonTiger on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 10:30 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : insult removed as un-needed petulance by me)

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 8:47 am

For those of you who do not want to click on the link:-

European Champions Cup spot scrapped for Challenge Cup winners as Guinness Pro12 chiefs insist on play-offs

Last year’s Challenge Cup winners Montpellier were granted a Champions Cup place courtesy of their achievement there is no such bonus from now on.



“It’s not our fault many of the French clubs don’t seem to care about the Challenge Cup,” said a Pro12 official.

“The Guinness Pro12 teams certainly take the Challenge Cup seriously and it’s up to the French to get their own house in order.

“We have made it quite clear to EPCR the play-off system must be reintroduced, as was in the original heads of agreement document.

“We categorically told EPCR we wouldn’t agree to the Challenge Cup winner, apart from in World Cup year, being parachuted into the Champions Cup and it has accepted it has to honour that position.”

Although Montpellier, who have a crack and expensively assembled squad, lifted last year’s Challenge Cup they fielded mix-and-match teams before taking the tournament more seriously during its latter stages.

Often, French clubs field experimental or development sides because the focus for many of them is staying in the domestic Top 14.

The play-offs, which could lead to Wales gaining an extra place in the Champions Cup, are expected to take place next May.


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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by Fuzzy Dunlop on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 10:12 am

Here we go again, Lord Dowlais moaning that other teams aren't taking a competition seriously enough. The English teams don't take it seriously, yet 4/6 of them made it out of the pool stages and one reached the final. Last year it was 4/5 teams and an eventual winner.

It must be like how the Irish don't take the Pro 12 seriously and somehow manage to dominate the thing. Christ, the Welsh really are Frak if anyone ever decides to actually try.


Last edited by Fuzzy Dunlop on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 10:22 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by marty2086 on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 10:18 am

Don't go talking sense, it confuses him and makes you seem arrogant

Hopefully a case of the Pro12 hoisting the EPCR by their own petard to strengthen their position to get a better deal

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 10:28 am

The PRO12 insisted that the play-offs for 8th team in the league were kept. EPCR were open to keeping the Challenge Cup winner getting qualification.

In my view, it makes far more sense to keep the playoffs as it keeps the league season more competitive.

Good decision by the PRO12 clubs.

Next?

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by marty2086 on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 10:33 am

Would the ECC place that is lost now not do the same?

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 10:56 am

marty2086 wrote:Would the ECC place that is lost now not do the same?

Que?

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by marty2086 on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 11:00 am

Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Would the ECC place that is lost now not do the same?

Que?

The ECC winner not advancing to the ERCC means a spot in the ECC is now taken up, meaning one less spot going to league qualifiers

It also devalues the tournament making it harder to attract sponsors

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 11:06 am

marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Would the ECC place that is lost now not do the same?

Que?

The ECC winner not advancing to the ERCC means a spot in the ECC is now taken up, meaning one less spot going to league qualifiers

It also devalues the tournament making it harder to attract sponsors

Sorry still don't understand what you're saying in your first sentence.

Agree that not having Challenge Cup winner qualify does not help its promotion, but it has more problems than that.

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by marty2086 on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 11:10 am

You say an extra league spot being available for the ERCC keeps the league more competitive?

One more team will qualify via league position for the ERCC under this system but it also means one less qualifying for the ECC because the winner automatically qualifies

My point is that's its 6 of one etc

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 1:59 pm

marty2086 wrote:You say an extra league spot being available for the ERCC keeps the league more competitive?

One more team will qualify via league position for the ERCC under this system but it also means one less qualifying for the ECC because the winner automatically qualifies

My point is that's its 6 of one etc

If you're the Dragons club, which would you prefer to possibly qualify for Champions Cup next season? Finish in 8th spot in the PRO12 and win two playoff matches or else win the Challenge Cup?

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by marty2086 on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 2:02 pm

And if you were sponsor would you want to go near a competition that no one wants to win?

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 2:06 pm

marty2086 wrote:And if you were sponsor would you want to go near a competition that no one wants to win?

But what's your answer to my question?

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by marty2086 on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 2:11 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:And if you were sponsor would you want to go near a competition that no one wants to win?

But what's your answer to my question?

I can't speak for the Dragons

I know some would like the league and others would like the ECC as its a trophy in their cabinet, as an Ulster fan Id love a trophy for us

There are those who get cut loose from the pack early on and making ground on the top spots is close to impossible, the ECC can offer an opportunity that isn't there

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by munkian on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 2:15 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You say an extra league spot being available for the ERCC keeps the league more competitive?

One more team will qualify via league position for the ERCC under this system but it also means one less qualifying for the ECC because the winner automatically qualifies

My point is that's its 6 of one etc

If you're the Dragons club, which would you prefer to possibly qualify for Champions Cup next season?  Finish in 8th spot in the PRO12 and win two playoff matches or else win the Challenge Cup?

We are closer to winning the cup than getting 8th spot to be honest..

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 2:20 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:And if you were sponsor would you want to go near a competition that no one wants to win?

But what's your answer to my question?

I can't speak for the Dragons

I know some would like the league and others would like the ECC as its a trophy in their cabinet, as an Ulster fan Id love a trophy for us

There are those who get cut loose from the pack early on and making ground on the top spots is close to impossible, the ECC can offer an opportunity that isn't there

It is possible to get 8th spot and to win the Challenge Cup. One does not exclude the other.

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 2:22 pm

munkian wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You say an extra league spot being available for the ERCC keeps the league more competitive?

One more team will qualify via league position for the ERCC under this system but it also means one less qualifying for the ECC because the winner automatically qualifies

My point is that's its 6 of one etc

If you're the Dragons club, which would you prefer to possibly qualify for Champions Cup next season?  Finish in 8th spot in the PRO12 and win two playoff matches or else win the Challenge Cup?

We are closer to winning the cup than getting 8th spot to be honest..

Ok fair enough. Which do you think the Welsh region CEOs wanted?

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by munkian on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 2:23 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
munkian wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You say an extra league spot being available for the ERCC keeps the league more competitive?

One more team will qualify via league position for the ERCC under this system but it also means one less qualifying for the ECC because the winner automatically qualifies

My point is that's its 6 of one etc

If you're the Dragons club, which would you prefer to possibly qualify for Champions Cup next season?  Finish in 8th spot in the PRO12 and win two playoff matches or else win the Challenge Cup?

We are closer to winning the cup than getting 8th spot to be honest..

Ok fair enough.   Which do you think the Welsh region CEOs wanted?

Our current CEOs don't know their arses from their elbows, I haven't a scooby.

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 2:28 pm

Pro12 clubs dont exactly have a stellar history in the ECC, only Leinster have ever made the final and wouldve qualified by League position anyway (also Pontypridd in ancient times if you count them).
You can see why they want the playoff more. Its a pity for the ECC and you can equally see why the Franglos wouldnt want more silly games shoe horned into the schedule.
But if that was the deal struck to get the current Champions Cup format then it should be honoured.

Ultimately the clubs that qualify through the "wildcard" route are likley to be no marks in the competition anyway, and as other have pointed out its a pretty problematic comeptition anyway ...but does generated money and mean that the second tier teams do have roughly equal games to the top dogs in a season. If its a chance for wider squads to get a run out and makes a profit (which it does) then its still A GOOD THING.
People keep banging on about the "Tier 2" nations getting more exposure, well this cup gives a few of their clubs an invaluable opportunity to be on the end of sound thrashings and have their one good player noticed by a proper teams head coach and poached.

Like the Wanglo cup its not exactly the biggest deal in the world but it is a thing. 3/10 for drama.

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 2:49 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Pro12 clubs dont exactly have a stellar history in the ECC, only Leinster have ever made the final and wouldve qualified by League position anyway (also Pontypridd in ancient times if you count them).

If you mean the second tier, then more than one Pro12 team has made the final, Cardiff Blues won the damn thing a few years back. OK

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 25 Aug 2016, 3:50 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Pro12 clubs dont exactly have a stellar history in the ECC, only Leinster have ever made the final and wouldve qualified by League position anyway (also Pontypridd in ancient times if you count them).
You can see why they want the playoff more. Its a pity for the ECC and you can equally see why the Franglos wouldnt want more silly games shoe horned into the schedule.
But if that was the deal struck to get the current Champions Cup format then it should be honoured.

Ultimately the clubs that qualify through the "wildcard" route are likley to be no marks in the competition anyway, and as other have pointed out its a pretty problematic comeptition anyway ...but does generated money and mean that the second tier teams do have roughly equal games to the top dogs in a season. If its a chance for wider squads to get a run out and makes a profit (which it does) then its still A GOOD THING.
People keep banging on about the "Tier 2" nations getting more exposure, well this cup gives a few of their clubs an invaluable opportunity to be on the end of sound thrashings and have their one good player noticed by a proper teams head coach and poached.

Like the Wanglo cup its not exactly the biggest deal in the world but it is a thing. 3/10 for drama.

I kinda like that summary, gooseberry. 9/10 for pithiness and general good humour. Smile

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 26 Aug 2016, 9:13 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Pro12 clubs dont exactly have a stellar history in the ECC, only Leinster have ever made the final and wouldve qualified by League position anyway (also Pontypridd in ancient times if you count them).

If you mean the second tier, then more than one Pro12 team has made the final, Cardiff Blues won the damn thing a few years back. OK

So they did...apparently the 7/8th of me thats English selectively filtered that one out (2009/10) Whistle
But the general point remains, and again they wouldve easily qualified for the proper cup the next year through league position anyway.

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Re: Top tier CC qualification from the bottom tier CC scrapped.

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