London Welsh

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London Welsh

Post by Allty on Fri 02 Sep 2016, 4:28 pm


Soz if its been posted before

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37259590

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Re: London Welsh

Post by stub on Fri 02 Sep 2016, 5:18 pm

What a shame - hope the RFU can help them...

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Re: London Welsh

Post by Eejit on Fri 02 Sep 2016, 5:39 pm

Fingers crossed for them. Good day out down Old Deer Park.

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Re: London Welsh

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 02 Sep 2016, 6:00 pm

Eejit wrote:Fingers crossed for them. Good day out down Old Deer Park.

I think they separated the professional side from the amateur club, certainly hope so. Means good days still possible at ODP.


Sadly the lessons of Richmond, Orrell and West Hartlepool not learnt. Until they can become closer to being self-sufficient Sarries are anothe club at risk.

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Re: London Welsh

Post by doctor_grey on Mon 05 Sep 2016, 6:46 am

Just saw this. Agree, there are a number of lessons unlearned and relearned. It must be very frustrating for their supporters. ODP is one of the best places to watch a game of Rugby. Anywhere.

It would be ironic if they had to approach the RFU hat in hand after the way they handled their promotion battles Rights and wrongs aside, they made very few friends.

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Re: London Welsh

Post by George Carlin on Mon 05 Sep 2016, 7:28 am

That's a real shame. I think that there must be some substance in the argument that the RFU (the richest in the world?) has been focussing a little too much on its Premiership showpiece and not on the lower leagues.

That's the feeling of my friends at London Scottish too.

Does anyone know how much (or how little) money they get in the lower leagues?

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Re: London Welsh

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 05 Sep 2016, 8:36 am

George Carlin wrote:Does anyone know how much (or how little) money they get in the lower leagues?

RFU probably give very little to championship sides directly - in year to June 2015 they spent £44m on Professional Rugby Investment - most of which would be the amounts under the EPS. £33m went to grass roots rugby, but that is a level below the Championship.

It is very hard for the Championship clubs, if they wish to be getting the facilities to qualify for the premiership. However pretty much no funding for the second tier would have saved LW. Their expenditure in their two AP seasons was more than double their income. They were not ready, nor set up for promotion the first time (one of the reasons the board did not ask for the facilities audit). They had no business plan - other than to sue PRL and RFU and try and beat the odds and stay in AP. They have already received £2.2m in additional payments, yet have not paid the £30k they owe to use ODP for this season.

Thankfully if wound up the real LW club, that runs 6 senor sides, 13 age and one ladies, will still exist and are in Herts/Middx Div 1.

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Re: London Welsh

Post by Welly on Mon 05 Sep 2016, 9:44 pm

Well that was unexpected

www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/london-welsh-taken-over-major-11846052#ICID=sharebar_twitter

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Re: London Welsh

Post by stub on Mon 05 Sep 2016, 10:09 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37259590

Being reported on BBC too.

Good news on the face of it.

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Re: London Welsh

Post by Eejit on Mon 05 Sep 2016, 11:38 pm

Didn't see that coming!

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Re: London Welsh

Post by yappysnap on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:45 am

Just a couple of thoughts. If the RFU gave the clubs more funding, is there anything to stop them spending that on more players and increasing their debt?

And could the Championship use a low salary cap? Say something like £1mil maximum? I have no idea about wages, but I assume part of the problem is teams like Bristol and Irish who can/did spend big so forcing an arms race.

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Re: London Welsh

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:26 am

According to the Times today the RFU give the clubs £530k each per year plus pay the player insurance.

The total wage bills vary from LI (quoted at £3m) down to Richmond paying just expenses.

No idea why the California based investor has stumped up cash to LW, as they have no viable business model, but glad the club will survive for now.

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Re: London Welsh

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:30 am

Well there's the first US franchise for the PRO12. Wonder who the second on will be....?

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Re: London Welsh

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:56 am

Pot Hale wrote:Well there's the first US franchise for the PRO12. Wonder who the second on will be....?

Why spend a fortune rescuing a South West London club to create a franchise playing in the states?

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Re: London Welsh

Post by profitius on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 10:24 am

Pot Hale wrote:Well there's the first US franchise for the PRO12. Wonder who the second on will be....?

Interesting theory PH. What do you think their plan is? Have a US based team that plays some matches in London?


The source of the money does seem odd alright.

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Re: London Welsh

Post by stub on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:05 pm

profitius wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Well there's the first US franchise for the PRO12. Wonder who the second on will be....?

Interesting theory PH. What do you think their plan is? Have a US based team that plays some matches in London?


The source of the money does seem odd alright.

Interesting..

Certainly not what I was expecting as a US pro12 team if that what it turns out to be.

Can see a few obvious advantages.

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Re: London Welsh

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 8:41 pm

LondonTiger wrote:According to the Times today the RFU give the clubs £530k each per year plus pay the player insurance.

The total wage bills vary from LI (quoted at £3m) down to Richmond paying just expenses.

No idea why the California based investor has stumped up cash to LW, as they have no viable business model, but glad the club will survive for now.
Good place to launder money?

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Re: London Welsh

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:07 pm

Too be honest I don't have much sympathy for the club itself...though I have loads for the genuine fans.

I think the club have done nothing but alienate themselves from other clubs fans etc by their behaviour. They haven't conducted themselves respectfully like say Exeter or other clubs coming up.

I hope they come through it...but having an American group take over just adds to this "desperation" coming from the people running the club.

I for one hope they don't succeed over the other honest clubs in the championship!

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Re: London Welsh

Post by Welly on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:26 pm

I find it interesting to think that the RFU would let a London club join another league.

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Re: London Welsh

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:29 pm

Would London Scottish then try the same route?

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Re: London Welsh

Post by stub on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:30 pm

I agree with much of your sentiment Geordie but if they go Pro12 (14) they won't be in The Championship any more and another team can take their place.

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Re: London Welsh

Post by stub on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:31 pm

Welly wrote: I find it interesting to think that the RFU would let a London club join another league.

I did wonder that myself but how can they stop it? Do they own any of the assets?

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Re: London Welsh

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:35 pm

stub wrote:I agree with much of your sentiment Geordie but if they go Pro12 (14) they won't be in The Championship any more and another team can take their place.

Very true but I thought the RFU had already said they would not sanction an English club playing in another league.

Maybe I made that up... Laugh Erm

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Re: London Welsh

Post by stub on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 9:41 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
stub wrote:I agree with much of your sentiment Geordie but if they go Pro12 (14) they won't be in The Championship any more and another team can take their place.

Very true but I thought the RFU had already said they would not sanction an English club playing in another league.

Maybe I made that up... Laugh Erm

Yeah - do not know how that could work. Do they call themselves London Welsh V2 and give up on The Championship and launch their best team into The PRO 14?

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Re: London Welsh

Post by Welly on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 10:00 pm

stub wrote:
Welly wrote: I find it interesting to think that the RFU would let a London club join another league.

I did wonder that myself but how can they stop it? Do they own any of the assets?

Not sure exactly but I know that they have to get permission from the RFU.

I think to start a club you need permission from the RFU so they wouldn't be able to do you're idea of a second team somewhere and join another league outside England.

Similar reason why Pro 12 needs USA rugby permission to create a USA franchise.

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Re: London Welsh

Post by stub on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 10:07 pm

Thanks Welly. In that case it looks like it won't be at all straightforward for LW to be an easy addition to the PRO14. Which makes it even more interesting about the American investor..

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Re: London Welsh

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 10:18 pm

They'll just take it to court like they always do...

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Re: London Welsh

Post by profitius on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 10:38 pm

What if say they were moved to the USA but played some games in England? Would they need RFU permission to play games in England?


Do they have assets that could be sold? If so that could be the explanation.

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Re: London Welsh

Post by Welly on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 10:43 pm

profitius wrote:What if say they were moved to the USA but played some games in England? Would they need RFU permission to play games in England?


Do they have assets that could be sold? If so that could be the explanation.

Yes all professional games need to be sanctioned by the Union of which the game is being played in.

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Re: London Welsh

Post by Fuzzy Dunlop on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 10:53 pm

I hope it works for them, it'd be a shame to see LW go. They made good progress in fixing the unfair elements of the minimum standards criteria and I had hoped they'd followed through with their threats to go to court over the lopsided distribution of PRL funds.

I'm not sure why they are so disliked, the game is rigged and they were the only club that seemed to make a serious effort to change it.

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Re: London Welsh

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 8:10 am

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:I hope it works for them, it'd be a shame to see LW go. They made good progress in fixing the unfair elements of the minimum standards criteria and I had hoped they'd followed through with their threats to go to court over the lopsided distribution of PRL funds.

I'm not sure why they are so disliked, the game is rigged and they were the only club that seemed to make a serious effort to change it.

they accepted a large out of court settlement, which they then blew on .... well things.


Pro club is disliked by me because of the initial opportunism. They chose not to apply to be audited as they did not expect to do well, when they did they sued, stamped and cried that it was not fair. Like the sides that (allegedly) smashed the salary cap they agreed to the rules, but then brought in lawyers later when it suited them - in the meantime having gained an unfair advantage over those that abided by the rules they had agreed to.

The amateur club is a fantastic place. A real community club.

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Re: London Welsh

Post by Fuzzy Dunlop on Wed 07 Sep 2016, 1:42 pm

LondonTiger wrote:

they accepted a large out of court settlement, which they then blew on .... well things.


If we're talking about them overspending on players and not enough investment in the business side of the club then it is a shame but pretty understandable imo. Considering that you need to stay in the AP for 2 consecutive seasons to even have the right to purchase P shares - and thus begin to attempt to reduce the ridiculous funding gap - I can see a club acting in desperation to stay up in that first year.

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Pro club is disliked by me because of the initial opportunism. They chose not to apply to be audited as they did not expect to do well, when they did they sued, stamped and cried that it was not fair.

Again you're right but I'm not sure how much stick they deserve for it. It would've been nice if they challenged the rules before it was likely to affect them, but I can't really imagine any club engaging in expensive legal action and potentially ruining relationships with other clubs until it's likely to have an impact on them directly.

There are also two crucial differences between this and the salary cap affair. A) All clubs (in theory, at least) are expected to follow the salary cap. The primacy of tenure rule was being used to deny AP access to championship sides while 3 PRL clubs were allowed to openly ignore it without issue. B) LW brought in the lawyers to challenge an unfair rule. The other teams (let's call them Baracens and Sath) broke the rules and then later used the lawyers to avoid punishment. Allegedly, of course angel

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Re: London Welsh

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 08 Sep 2016, 7:39 pm

I'm curious. What would legally prevent London Welsh, under their new owners, playing in a revamped PRO14, using a ground in London?

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Re: London Welsh

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