PGA Tour: BMW & wTF: Notes from the Ballwasher

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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 06 Sep 2016, 6:34 pm

First topic message reminder :

1).A short week on the PGA Tour with 69 of the 70 FedEx Play-Off survivors (all except the injured/resting Stenson) high-tailing it from TPC Boston to Crooked Stick GC in the Indianapolis area, 900+ miles to the WSW, for action starting Thursday. Not much time to acclimate to a course most of the field has only seen once before, in 2012, if at all. Rory McIlroy was the winner then, in red hot form having won the previous week at the Deutsche Bank. Sound familiar?

2).And, at the start of a four-tournament series to determine careers (in the short-term at least), the web.com Tour Finals commence at Canterbury Golf Club, home of 2 past US Opens and a PGA Championship, in the Cleveland area of Ohio.

3).What a great win for McIlroy on Monday. Welcome back Rory, Darren Clarke is pleased to see you.
And another disappointment for Paul Casey, his sixth Tour runner-up finish against one win, gift-wrapped seven years ago in Houston by JB Holmes.
Casey's career on the PGA Tour has been a mixed bag, with two terrific years  in 2009/2010, followed by four largely barren years dominated by injuries, bad form and divorce. Now last year's comeback followed by another decent, could yet be great, year.

4).We tend to think Casey's been around forever, but most of his career has been spent piling up European Tour wins and cash.
Despite playing the PGA Tour on and off for a decade, Casey "only" ranks 82nd in career earnings. He found out the hard way a few years ago that his only enduring exemption standing on Tour is his "Past Champion" status, significant but only yielding a place in about 1/3 of tournaments; and he has only chalked up 136 cuts. Without higher career earnings, or at least another win, he wouldn't have an exemption onto the Champions Tour, in 11 years' time. He may still be an angry young man at being left behind in Ryder Cup selection since 2008, but it's quite likely that a purely pragmatic streak also played a part in his decision to focus 100% on the PGA Tour this year.

5). It's difficult to imagine that LoveIII learned much from the Deutsche Bank play, at least as far as looking for Ryder Cup contenders in sparkling form is concerned. Perhaps he might have liked Chappell (8th), Ryan Moore (8th) or Kaufman (24th) to have enjoyed a strong Monday, but they faltered, as did Furyk and Stricker who thus failed to qualify for the BMW Championship. Other "prospects" include:
Watson, Thomas, Hoffman, Horschel all missed the cut.
Bill Haas: 67th
Piercy: 53rd
Fowler, Kuchar, Kisner: 46th
Berger: 41st
Dufner, Holmes: 33rd
Not a pretty sight.
I still think he'll go for the safe (i.e. uncontroversial) choice of proven RC losers Watson, Fowler and Kuchar (who comes with popular caddie John Wood), plus JB Holmes. But the Beemer could change/confuse things again.

6).16 golfers qualified for the (10-year-old) FedEx Play-Offs for the tenth time, another 10 qualified for Round 2 for the tenth time. But, of those, Donald, HowellIII, Kuchar, Moore, Rose and Snedeker had fallen short of qualifying for Round 3 at least once, and Furyk misses out this time.
QUIZ! Which three golfers qualify for the BMW Championship for the tenth time??

7).The narrative tends to be that Rory has had a rotten season but he still ranks high in owgr points for 2016. These nine have racked up 200 owgr points so far:
384: Day
356: DJohnson
292: McIlroy
285: Stenson
261: Spieth
255: Scott
241: Reed
220: Willett
200: Walker

8).The club of three-time FedEx Play-Off tournament winners grew to two with Rory joining Tiger at the top. Two-time winners include:
Vijay, Camilo, Phil, Stricker, DJ, Billy Ho, Stenson and Day.

9).Most interesting competitor to many Europeans in the first web.com Tour Final tournament will be Andrew Johnston, especially with Beef having taken a few weeks off then bellying straight back up to the bar with last week's 3rd place finish in the Swiss Alps. We'll keep an eye on this action over the next month.

10).Pete Dye is now about 145 but Crooked Stick endures as one of his landmark designs, made famous in 1991 when John Daly gripped it and ripped his way to become PGA Champion. It took the PGA Tour until 2012 to come to the course for the first time and McIlroy made off with the Championship by two strokes from Mickelson and some guy called Westwood. Other Top 25 finishers then who return for more include:
T6: Dustin and (my idea of closest pursuer to Rory this week) Adam Scott.
T10: Ryan Moore
T12: Zach, Kirk, Bubba
T16: Rose (what happened to him yesterday?  Rolling Eyes ), Oosthuizen
T24: Sergio

PS: Three more US Ryder Cuppers due to be selected following the Beemer (which should be Sunday but not a great forecast in prospect).
Also: Nice to see Darren Clarke grouped with Stewart Cink in Switzerland - good health to the Cinks.
And: Don't forget Trivia in Note 6). above.


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Post by McLaren on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 2:30 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:GPB, I think he meant Lee has a better RC record in America compared to members of US RC teams.

Although the rest of the planet has as good a major record as Lee has.
Don't be a c*ck. Of course they don't. Almost none have even played in a Major, let alone have the record of Westwood :picard:.

I feel like I have to only point this out to you but you do know that you don't have to read everything posted literally?
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Post by I'm never wrong on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 2:45 pm

McLaren wrote:I do have some grammer issues.  Wink

How do you comfort a grammar fanatic?



There, their, they're ....... drumroll

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Post by GPB on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 2:58 pm

Jason Day has signed with Nike to wear their apparel, shoes and Ball cap.

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Post by McLaren on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 3:16 pm

I guess with Tiger coming back someone had to fill the nike wounded warrior role.
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Post by super_realist on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 3:19 pm

Why would you sign to play for that dead duck?
It's like a footballer signing for Gola boots.

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Post by wiretapper on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 3:20 pm

GPB wrote:Jason Day has signed with Nike to wear their apparel, shoes and Ball cap.

I had to check what a ball cap was. Sounded like something which should be kept private and not emblazoned with a sponsor logo

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Post by robopz on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 3:25 pm

GPB... Never suggested Casey winning the FedEx Cup without an event win wouldn't be deserved.... Only that it would be the tour's worst nightmare, because it would be. A lot of fans wouldn't understand or accept that there's little that can be done in formulas to prevent such a scenario, unless those same fans would be satisfied with maybe some of their favorite players being excluded from the playoffs to begin with.

But it does illustrate one thing to me... For FedEx point purposes, I'd like to see an even higher premium on wins over other top places. That probably wouldn't entirely mathematically eliminate the non-winner scenario, but would make it even more unlikely.

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Post by robopz on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 3:31 pm

IMO Day's Nike signing shows the wisdom of Nike getting out of the hard goods business. I wouldn't be surprised to see Nike becoming the dominant soft goods company in golf now that their potential endorsers roster probably just grew 10-fold.

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Post by GPB on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 3:35 pm

Robo: IMO, It shouldn't be the Tour's worst nightmare and I supplied two comparable examples.

And I think the point distribution is just fine. It correlates closely with OWGR Point distribution and money distribution.

BTW, thanks for following up on the Co-PoY of the PGAofA.

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Post by super_realist on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 3:36 pm

Sounds more like a problem for those who don't understand sport

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Post by GPB on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 4:08 pm

Robo: Check your PM's

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Post by McLaren on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 4:42 pm

Nike are following the golf model now that they should have done from the start. Sign guys that will sell all nike products and forget about making money from golf clubs and balls. As I said last time I am sure the likes of Rory contribute to more non golf sales like hoodies and shoes than he did profit from club sales.
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Post by super_realist on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 4:50 pm

Why would Rory contribute to the sales of hoodies? He is never seen wearing them. (it was also 9C that you said was responsible for shifting the favourite attire of your local scumbag)

Either way, As far as I can see, Nike aren't exactly at the forefront of "hoodie" sales anyway.

Nike have also fallen a million miles behind companies that are making much nicer and more "stylish" clothing, so even if they do focus on Clothes and Shoes, do people really want them? They seem to be about 10 years out of date.


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Post by robopz on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 4:51 pm

Mac... In 20-20 hindsight.... I agree Nike probably would have been better off never having gone into hard goods. But that's what happens when companies think they can flourish outside of their core competencies. It can be done, but rarely so it seems.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 5:32 pm

robopz,

Does Paul Casey (137 cuts made to date) have to accumulate 150 cuts to be fully vested in his FedEx bonus swag?

Entirely separately, does the Champions Tour (and web.com for that matter) have a pension plan??

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Post by McLaren on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 6:26 pm

robo

Did nike need hindsight? Couldn't they have looked at what profits the other club makers of the day were making and realised that even if they were the new Taylormade there wasn't going to be huge amount of dosh to be made?

I have always assumed someone at nike just liked the idea of getting really into golf and they went for it? Maybe one of the top managers was a golf guy?
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Post by super_realist on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 6:50 pm

To me Nike always ranked in the bottom echelons for equipment, and I see the same for clothes and shoes.
With so many better options available, why would you buy their stuff?

Where do you all think they sit in the golfing pantheon?

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Post by GPB on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 6:59 pm

IMO Nike soft-goods is as good as it gets.

You don't get to be a market leader by making shoddy merchandise and make no mistake, Nike is a market leader.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 7:05 pm

Not just golf of course, any sport advertising extends its brand to other sports.
Always an adidas man, but not for golf.

Can't stand Nike stuff, or the Nike company for that matter.
Never buy "golf" shorts or trousers but have a few Ashworth & Callaway shirts.
ECCO shoes, Babolat trainers right now but never again!

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Post by super_realist on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 7:15 pm

GPB wrote:IMO Nike soft-goods is as good as it gets.

You don't get to be a market leader by making shoddy merchandise and make no mistake, Nike is a market leader.

Are they a market leader though? In golf I mean.

I'm not doubting that the kids they have putting their gear together do a good job, but in terms of peoples opinion and perception, to me they seem very much bargain basement and the style seems very old and tired.

They seem a very long way behind the likes of Galvin Green, J Lindeberg, Peak Performance, Under Armour, Oscar Jacobsen and Ecco, Christ, I'd even put Adidas ahead of them and probably Footjoy stuff too.

Nike seem to be a jack of all trades, but a master of none. Perhaps trying to enter other markets has harmed their brand, even without the golf hardware exercise.

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Post by robopz on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 7:43 pm

Mac... Yeah... apparently Nike did need hindsight regarding getting into golf hard goods. Their actions getting in and then out are all the proof needed.

Super... I doubt Nike is a market leader in golf yet...  But now that they're free to sign a lot more of the top talent to apparal only deals, I bet it won't take them long to become one.   There's  no question having your goods on display on the top players drives not only brand awareness, but for soft goods it also drives a lot more actual individual product awareness.   Equipment logo branding on golfer's is more abstract. You see the name, but in the course of watching a tournament you don't actually see the differentiating attributes of a club or a ball.  But you DO see what the shirt, slacks, etc. look like.

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 8:03 pm

I don't like Nike clubs but I think most of their golf clothing is good. Way nicer than Ashworth, Adidas, Under Armour, Ping, Oakley, Greg Norman's stuff for me.
I'd put Galvin Green, Stromberg, Oscar Jacobsen and J Lindberg ahead of Nike, they all make classier stuff. Considerably more expensive though
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Post by super_realist on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 8:04 pm

Surely if it isn't a market leader yet, then it isn't likely to be. I see people moving away from the mass market items more these days. I think Nike were more ubiquitous 10 years ago, these days, they just don't seem so popular, and I can't see how they could gain more market share, especially considering how bad 9C dresses head to toe in awful Nike gear., it's hardly likely to inspire anyone. Under Armour especially seem to have stolen a march on Nike to be the undisputed mass market clothing marque for golf.

Whilst companies that don't seem to sponsor anyone visibly seem to sweep up the rest. (Galvin Green, Kjus, IJP, Oscar Jacobsen etc)

It's worth noting that Nike attempted to bully its way into the snowsport industry, doing the same by giving many of the top stars massive contracts, but it got laughed out of town and people stuck with the brands they knew and trusted.

MPB, I'd agree that Greg Norman, Ping, Ashworth etc are a bit "bargain rail at TK Maxx" level, but wouldn't say that Adidas were in that bracket, their range is a lot more contemporary and dynamic than the staid look of Nike gear.

If Nike were a car, it would be a Ford Focus, and I think people want something a bit more than that these days.

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Post by robopz on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 8:18 pm

IMO it would be appropriate for the PGA of A to take another look at the "Calvin Peete" rule regarding the Vardon Trophy. The way it is now, any player who has a mid-round WD is ineligible for the Vardon. Like Jason Day is now ineligible.

I think a better way is the way the PGA of A does it with their POY points. Thy add 1/10th of a stroke to the players scoring average for each WD. It probably wouldn't make a difference this year as DJ broke free from a neck and neck scoring race with Jason Day this past week. But it could make a difference in the future. I wouldn't want to see a deserving player lose out on a Vardon Trophy because of a legitimate injury situation, and IMO the 1/10th stroke penalty is sufficient to deter someone gaming the system.

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 8:32 pm

It's all about tastes I suppose Super.
I think Nike shirts are considerably nicer than the Adidas ones which I usually find a bit boring.
Eye of the beholder and all that
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Post by robopz on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 8:32 pm

Super... I think you have a woefully inaccurate impression of Nike apparal. It is not a discount brand and there's nothing"cheap" about it, in either quality or price point. It's probably a matter that you just don't see it so much in Europe as Adidas has so much more dominant presence there, while Nike is dominant in America. Don't confuse the mass market reach of companies like Adidas and Nike with the quality or price point of their goods. Personally I prefer Under Armour, but Nike is at least as good as if not better quality and generally higher priced. UA's styling and patterns just happen to be more to my liking.

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Post by robopz on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 8:39 pm

MustPuttBetter wrote:It's all about tastes I suppose Super.
I think Nike shirts are considerably nicer than the Adidas ones which I usually find a bit boring.
Eye of the beholder and all that
exactly.

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Post by robopz on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 9:00 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:robopz,

Does Paul Casey (137 cuts made to date) have to accumulate 150 cuts to be fully vested in his FedEx bonus swag?

Entirely separately, does the Champions Tour (and web.com for that matter) have a pension plan??
No. FedEx bonuses are 100% vested when they are earned. Now the remaining roughly 1/3 of the retirement plan remains just like pre FedEx Cup days... And he does need the 150 made cuts to be fully vested in that.

And not sure on the Web Tour, but yes on the Champions. Champions players continue on within the same scheme as the old cuts plan.  Different in that if they didn't fully vest in PGAT starts... Champions status doesn't fix that.  But their Champions contributions all vest quickly. If I understand correctly there is some kind of very short time vesting, but not based on number of starts or anything.

PS... I have someone I can get more on this... But it might take some time. I'll get back to you on it.

PSS.... And keep in mind the PGAT plan is actually a deferred compensation plan, thus different rules from a traditional retirement plan on how individuals can keep it going and when the must begin take the funds as income. So it gets real complicated.

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Post by GPB on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 9:24 pm

If the PGAT is going to address the Calvin Peete rule, they need to address the flawed formula that calculates the Adjusted Stroke Average.

But I honestly don't think the players give a Rat's Patootie about the Vardon Trophy.

That said, I think a more draconian penalty would be in order for a player WD.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 9:24 pm

robo,
Thanks thumbsup

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Post by GPB on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 9:31 pm

I don't spend much time on golf courses any more, the only times I venture out is for mostly charity tournaments. These golfer wears a lot of Nike shirts.


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Post by super_realist on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 9:44 pm

robopz wrote:Super... I think you have a woefully inaccurate impression of Nike apparal. It is not a discount brand and there's nothing"cheap" about it, in either quality or price point. It's probably a matter that you just don't see it so much in Europe as Adidas has so much more dominant presence there, while Nike is dominant in America.  Don't confuse the mass market reach of companies like Adidas and Nike with the quality or price point of their goods.  Personally I prefer Under Armour, but Nike is at least as good as if not better quality and generally higher priced.  UA's styling and patterns just happen to be more to my liking.  

I think that there must be a difference in perceptions on each side of the atlantic. Over here there is no chance that Nike are as popular as they once were. It's rare to see someone in their shoes for instance, and the shirts aren't tremendously popular either. Nike Mid 90's to early 2000's was without doubt the most popular brand, now, it's not even close, perhaps because they stood still, perhaps because other players came into the market, who knows, but it's got no chance of being a market leader over here, and its not because it's American either, as Under Armour do very well.

I'm not saying it's a discount brand, but from what I can see, it's perhaps perceived that way, at least over here, or at least perceived as being boring. The trouble with Nike, is that people get sick of brands that are everywhere such as Nike have been, from what I've observed, people seem to be moving to brands that are a bit more individual and perhaps even a bit more exclusive.

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 9:54 pm

Maybe there are different perceptions either side of Hadrian's Wall Super. Nike are easily the most popular brand at the club I play at and other clubs I play and people I play with

The other brands that are as good are quite a bit more costly, which I suspect is the reason
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Post by robopz on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 10:20 pm

Super... Yeah I think we're all influenced by what we see in our own individual environment.  

But I think the point here is by getting out of hard goods, Nike has the opportunity to greatly expand the visibility of their soft goods brand in golf... IE Jason Day as just a first example.  And the buying public IS influenced by that kind of visibility.  As long as the clothes look decent, the will sell. Same reason UA is doing so well in the golf market these days. People see it a lot more now, and they like what they see. Result = increased market share.

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Post by GPB on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 11:29 pm

I always liked the UA shirts, pre-Spieth. Most of the times I saw them, they were bold, even Neon colors.

Since Spieth became their flagship player, the color scheme is more "tame" and I don't like it as much.

Spieth wears a lot of shades of gray and dull colors which I don't like. And the ubiquitous white slacks, which I really don't like.

I like the bright and bold colors.

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Post by robopz on Tue 13 Sep 2016, 11:49 pm

GPB wrote:If the PGAT is going to address the Calvin Peete rule, they need to address the flawed formula that calculates the Adjusted Stroke Average.

But I honestly don't think the players give a Rat's Patootie about the Vardon Trophy.

That said, I think a more draconian penalty would be in order for a player WD.
IMO the players care about those things more than you might think. Phil himself talked about a few times before he fell out of it. But granted, nothing like the old days. Vardon and money list used to be really big deals.

And what could possibly be more draconian than one WD and you're out of the Vardon regardless of the circumstances?

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Post by McLaren on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 12:23 am

I like nike's golf clothing, the T-shirts come in much more fitted styles compared to some of the more traditional golf brands or even adidas. Also find some of the UA stuff ok.

Not sure why you think Nike is lower quality super, I have some pretty old Nike t-shirts that have out lives those of other brands.
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Post by GPB on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 12:36 am

robopz wrote:And what could possibly be more draconian than one WD and you're out of the Vardon regardless of the circumstances?

I was talking about a 1/10 added to the scoring avg.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 1:17 am

Golfchannel reckons JDay is scoring $10M to dress (and look like a dufus) in Nike apparel.
That's a lot of lucre, plus a chapeau deal ($1M?) for Colin Swatton.

Must say that I find the Nike look dated (90's) and plain. 'course, I hate jeans too.

But 10 million bills is a ton of cash. Every year.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 5:20 am

McLaren wrote:I like nike's golf clothing, the T-shirts come in much more fitted styles compared to some of the more traditional golf brands or even adidas.  Also find some of the UA stuff ok.

Not sure why you think Nike is lower quality super, I have some pretty old Nike t-shirts that have out lives those of other brands.

I DON'T think it's lower quality Mac, but like everything which is mass market, it might be perceived that way, not to mention, Nike don't exactly have a great reputation for their manufacturing conditions (even though all the others are probably just as bad)

It is however cheap or at least cheaper in comparison to many brands, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, though the lower price of it compared to Galvin Green, Peak Performance, Boss, Kjus etc doesn't seem to make it any more popular, at least here and I see people moving towards the more expensive, more exclusive brands than buying the likes of Nike these days, which isn't good for Nike obviously.
As for shoes, Nike are a pretty rare sight compared to how they used to be, most people I see have Adidas, Ecco, Footjoy and even UA and Puma these days. Nike shoes have been ghastly a long time.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 8:40 am

McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:GPB, I think he meant Lee has a better RC record in America compared to members of US RC teams.

Although the rest of the planet has as good a major record as Lee has.
Don't be a c*ck. Of course they don't. Almost none have even played in a Major, let alone have the record of Westwood picard.

I feel like I have to only point this out to you but you do know that you don't have to read everything posted literally?
:sigh: Mac, you clearly need to learn to convey a sense of sarcasm/irony etc in the written word. This seems to be a standard cop out of yours when, not surprisingly, people take what you write at face value.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 8:41 am

super_realist wrote:Why would you sign to play for that dead duck?
It's like a footballer signing for Gola boots.
Money. End of.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 8:49 am

Re. Nike apparel, each to their own and all that, but I wouldn't be seen dead in any of their gear, good stuff or no. I can't stand their company approach to anything they do.
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Post by MustPuttBetter on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 9:10 am

Navy, I also don't like Nike's approach and ethics generally.
Problem is, unless you're going to be inconsistent, it's a very difficult approach to take to life.
Based on ethics I'd end up never buying Nike, eating Macdonald's, using Apple equipment, drinking at Starbucks, buying indian food, using almost any bank, flying Ryan Air, buying fuel from oil companies, reading almost any newspaper, and so on
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Post by pedro on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 11:12 am

For sure super_realist's observations lurking around St Andrews must be indicative of your everyday golfer fashion.

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Post by McLaren on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 11:39 am

super_realist wrote:Why would Rory contribute to the sales of hoodies?.

Isn't that the whole point of building a brand. Maybe you are above it, but for many people just knowing that a company like nike are associated with Serana, Tiger, Rory, Ronaldo etc, whether or not you follow their sports, lifts how they are viewed in a positive way.
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Post by Shotrock on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 3:45 pm

McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:Why would Rory contribute to the sales of hoodies?.

Isn't that the whole point of building a brand.  Maybe you are above it, but for many people just knowing that a company like nike are associated with Serana, Tiger, Rory, Ronaldo etc, whether or not you follow their sports, lifts how they are viewed in a positive way.


Mac - 100% correct.

I'm involved in a NASCAR sponsorship with a client of mine at the moment. I'm flabbergasted at the spend and -- more importantly -- the ROI. In this day of self-selecting so much of the media we consume, endorsements, product placement, etc. have taken on an even greater role.


Last edited by Shotrock on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by super_realist on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 6:30 pm

pedro wrote:For sure super_realist's observations lurking around St Andrews must be indicative of your everyday golfer fashion.
Not just St.Andrews, but everywhere I've played this year. Nike are on a downward trajectory in Scotland at least.

Mac, I must be above it, but then I don't idolise sporting people like you do. I buy gear because I like how it looks, not who they sponsor.

I bet though, you couldn't find a single person in the world who bought a Nike "hoody" because they sponsor Rory McIlroy.


Here's an interesting and timely article on Nike's demise.
http://www.mygolfspy.com/why-nike-golf-failed/

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Post by robopz on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 1:11 am

Moved to other thread...

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