PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

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PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:37 pm

First topic message reminder :

1).Davis Love made the fairly predictable choices last Monday of Fowler, Holmes and Kuchar as his first three "picks" for Team USA and seemed pretty pleased with himself. But now comes the hard part. You don't have to study too hard to read what's between the lines of his pga.com interview, as he has his Holmes but not his, or anyone else's it seems, Watson:

2)."These are the three guys we want right now." Which translated means: We didn't want Bubba.

3).We're looking for "guys we think are going to handle this stage and fit in with the group, be ready to play under that pressure". Not have a career singles record of 0 - 3, eh Bubba? (The same as Spieth's Pres Cup / Ryder Cup singles record, as it happens, the answer to the age-old trivia question: What do Messrs DeLaet, McDowell and Leishman have in common?) And, with this somewhat cliquey group, perhaps Bubba doesn't "fit in"?

4)."Rickie had a big schedule, with a lot weighing on him and he missed the Tour Championship by half a point," said Davis.
Bubba, on the other hand, played the same number (8) events from July 1st thru last week, outplayed Rickie in the Olympics, has won on Tour this season and is ranked higher in the owgr's. Oh, and Bubba didn't miss the Tour Championship, he made it comfortably.

5).I don't think the Task Force did Love any favours breaking up the timing of his Captain's Picks. He's clearly dissed Bubba and made it very difficult for Love to go back and choose him now.
On the other hand, Bubba could win the Tour Championship - how would he then feel about playing on a Team that has made it obvious that they don't want him?

6).Big sympathies for Bubba here, but what will Capt Love do now?  
New blood? The punditry seems to think he'll choose a young gun, Berger or Thomas - and one would think Thomas's relationship with LoveIV and cliquey best buds with Fowler and Spieth will help him if he can only help himself in Atlanta.

Or an Old head? Possibly Furyk, but I'd go with Dufner, 6 wins against 2 losses in his Presidents/Ryder Cups career, including 2 - 0 in singles. And a proven partner for Zach Johnson. Not to mention that Dufner would take the situation in his stride,

7).The wTF four-tournament action resumes in Boise, Idaho, where it's just warming up again after some frigid temps.
You know the score: The Top 25 money winners in this series, who have not already earned their Tour card via the web.com regular season, earn Tour cards for the 2016/2017 season. And the more money they earn, the higher their status with the stragglers probably only getting to play two of the first eight events, and likely only 2 of the following 8 also.

8).This is the fourth year for wTF and the 25th man on the past three money-lists has earned no less than $42K and no more than $44.3K.
So let's say $45K should get you a card, which would mean DeChambeau, Gonzales, Lindheim and Etulain already have their cards assured.
European standings after one event:
T11: Norlander
T13: Gonzo
T24: Johnston
etc.

9).Gregory Bourdy is throwing his chapeau into the wTF ring this week, joining Andrew Johnston and Aphibarnrat as potential European Tour defectors. Easily forgotten that highlights of Bourdy's season included T18 finishes in the US Open and PGA Championship. Bon chance.

10).Congrat's to Dustin Johnson on his BMW win and he joins Rory and Tiger as three-time FedEx Cup Play Off winners.
Meanwhile, Bubba Watson must be thrilled he championed the US cause in Rio when the Jordans and Dustins stayed at home. It sounds as if Bubba embraced the whole experience, proud to represent USA on the world's second biggest international stage. But the good old USA is not embracing Bubba, despite his 8th-place finish, and that's a shame which might make potential candidates for the Tokyo golf action think twice about playing in four years' time.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:00 pm

robopz wrote:
super_realist wrote:It's not the surgery that is ridiculous Robo, it's sustaining the injuries in the course of playing golf that is.
It's like a bowls or darts injury.
But of course you're correct as usual. Back pain/Injury is only the #1 most common golfer health problem and knee issues are only #6.  What was I thinking and what a wimp that 9c guy is, huh?  Whistle

http://golf.about.com/od/fitnesshealth/tp/commoninjuries.htm

Well, if it's so widely known, perhaps his team ought to have devised a regime that meant he didn't have a mad axeman swing that led to greater risk of those widely known injuries shouldn't they, mind you, he's too thick to listen to anyone anyway.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by JAS on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:02 pm

super_realist wrote:It's not the surgery that is ridiculous Robo, it's sustaining the injuries in the course of playing golf that is.
It's like a bowls or darts injury.

It's not the playing golf though is it? It's the ridiculous over egging of the gym work. I can't get why none of his advisors said "whoa...that's way way too much for what you need...focus more on keeping your flexibility, you have the technique you don't need excessive muscle power, it's counter productive and the pursuit of it could lead to serious injury...oops too late!!"

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:08 pm

Exactly JAS, I've always maintained that the over exercising (and mad axeman swing) was as detrimental to 9C's career as a golfer who was a fat bloater. Neither is good for the game.

You could practice golf all day if you had the right regime for it (after all people mine coal and build ships all day without problems). 9C clearly either didn't have such a regime, or didn't listen to those who knew about it.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by JAS on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:14 pm

I can understand the simple thinking, what I think he got wrong was who to consult and what to tell them he wanted out of it. I have a feeling the personal trainers advising him weren't golfers or well versed in golf swing biomechanics.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Shotrock on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:20 pm

No two people, obviously, are the same.

Player's approach certainly worked for Player ... and perhaps even Wood's approach helped keep him at the level he achieved (astounding) for as long as he did (a fine run by any standards). Impossible for us armchair quarterbacks to be certain, but I'm guessing Tiger has spent lots of money having lots of people experienced in sport's injuries give him advice/treatment. Perhaps not with the intellect and insight of Super, however. Wink

I recently saw an interview where they asked Langer how he has been able to stay so productive for so long. "Good genetics" was his first response. (And obviously has done an excellent job of exercise and nutrition.)

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:24 pm

JAS... Good comments. Golf has its own set of legitimate and common health issues. And your point about the differences from 30 years ago are spot on.

I think the deal with Tiger is that while he certainly wasn't the first to approach the game athletically as you accurately point out, he did seem to be a key catalyst in inspiring many of those playing along side and many more of those following him to get with the program. Why Player's example from many years earlier didn't have near as much influence escapes me. That guy did more with less than maybe anybody ever, and his fitness was probably the main reason why.

And I agree with you on Tiger overdoing it. IMO the big thing was his road work. There's lots of ways to gain the aerobic benefits of jogging without joint jarring of pounding feet on pavement. That and probably his reported " extra curricular activities" wrecked his knees, and IMO could be all or at least a good part of what eventually led to his back issues. (Via changing swings to protect his knees).

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:35 pm

I think 9C's achievements were mostly down to talent, with being in better shape giving him a greater edge, but which ultimately curtailed and ended his career.

Conversely, I think the likes of Lowry's talent has been thus far been limited by a revolting and ineffective physique.

I would doubt that 9C's problems came from running on roads, although if it did, it wasn't the running, it was the technique he used, again further suggestion he had no team focussing on this, or he didn't listen to them. Proper, efficient running is shown to make the bones more dense and the muscles around the joints stronger and more robust. Done properly as directed by a team who knew would mean his knees would actually be stronger, not weaker. People have run for centuries without those issues. So much for running just being putting one foot in front of the others, to revisit an old thread.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by JAS on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:46 pm

robopz wrote:JAS... Good comments. Golf has its own set of legitimate and common health issues.  And your point about the differences from 30 years ago are spot on.

I think the deal with Tiger is that while he certainly wasn't the first to approach the game athletically as you accurately point out, he did seem to be a key catalyst in inspiring many of those playing along side and many more of  those following him to get with the program.  Why Player's example from many years earlier didn't have near as much influence escapes me. That guy did more with less than maybe anybody ever, and his fitness was probably the main reason why.

And I agree with you on Tiger overdoing it. IMO the big thing was his road work. There's lots of ways to gain the aerobic benefits of jogging without joint jarring of pounding feet on pavement. That and probably his reported " extra curricular activities" wrecked his knees, and IMO could be all or at least a good part of what eventually led to his back issues. (Via changing swings to protect his knees).

Pretty much agree, why didn't others pick up on what Player was doing??
As for Woods, I do wonder what would have happened if he'd stayed with Butch "Look Tigger, fitness is important but you don't need to get excessive about it, ease back a bit and make sure you work on flexibility that's where you'll maintain your advantage as you get older" I just don't think the same words would sound anything like convincing from Haney or Foley.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:47 pm

JAS wrote:... what I think he got wrong was who to consult and what to tell them he wanted out of it. I have a feeling the personal trainers advising him weren't golfers or well versed in golf swing biomechanics.
We may never know exactly what lead to Tiger's body breakdown. But he probably knows and would love to go back and change some things now if only he could. ( Oh wouldn't we all )

But the science of athletic training and biomechanics as it relates to golfers is far advanced today from where it was when Tiger hit the scene. Today's and future players have Tiger's cautionary fitness tale along with that science to draw on.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:51 pm

I'm sure he'd like to have paid a bit more attention to better course management too. He could have been out of sight on majors with a bit more of that.

I get the impression that even if 9C had been in receipt of the proper advice (which would certainly have been available for his supposed lack of running technique), he wouldn't have taken it anyway. We'll never know.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:54 pm

JAS wrote:As for Woods, I do wonder what would have happened if he'd stayed with Butch "Look Tigger, fitness is important but you don't need to get excessive about it, ease back a bit and make sure you work on flexibility that's where you'll maintain your advantage as you get older"  I just don't think the same words would sound anything like convincing from Haney or Foley.
Seems to me by far the greatest part of Tiger's physical transformation happened before he ever left Butch. So if Butch was counciling something otherwise, it sure doesn't appear as if Tiger was paying heed.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:55 pm

Wonder if Jason Day will be the new Tiger-like casualty of swinging too hard, working out obsessively, pushing his body beyond normal limits? He certainly breaks down more than most.
(And, yes, Rory needs to watch himself too.)

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:05 pm

I suppose we'll see Kwini, although the balance and grace of the McIlroy swing appears to show that his swing is within his capability (at least in his current flush of youth), couldn't say the same for 9C who still tried to swing like a 25 year old as a 40 year old with a glass body.

Spieth's conventional if boring swing might be the best for longevity among those currently near the top (not forgetting he can pray to heal any injuries Run)

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:08 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Wonder if Jason Day will be the new Tiger-like casualty of swinging too hard, working out obsessively, pushing his body beyond normal limits? He certainly breaks down more than most.
(And, yes, Rory needs to watch himself too.)
It all makes me wonder too kwini. I believe we're seeing a trend leaning towards the most physically fit and more highly athletically trained are the ones having more and more of the success these days. IMO that's going to translate to far shorter periods of "prolific" success and shorter careers.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:14 pm

super_realist wrote:Spieth's conventional if boring swing might be the best for longevity among those currently near the top (not forgetting he can pray to heal any injuries Run)
What in the world makes you think he even needs to pray? Didn't you hear? He made a deal with God for a long career in exchange for putting lessons. angel

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:23 pm

Maybe he sold his soul to the devil for putting?

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:26 pm

super_realist wrote:Maybe he sold his soul to the devil for putting?
Doubt it... he doesn't seem to kick near enough dogs for that to be the case...

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:28 pm

robopz wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:Wonder if Jason Day will be the new Tiger-like casualty of swinging too hard, working out obsessively, pushing his body beyond normal limits? He certainly breaks down more than most.
(And, yes, Rory needs to watch himself too.)
It all makes me wonder too kwini.  I believe we're seeing a trend leaning towards the most physically fit and more highly athletically trained are the ones having  more and more of the success these days.  IMO that's going to translate to far shorter periods of "prolific" success and shorter careers.  

I'm not so sure, we've seen how the likes of Djokovic, Federer and Murray (Nadal too, although his injuries are taking toll now) (or even Bolt, Redgrave, Farah etc) have been incredibly athletic, but been able to maintain top level for a decade or more without too many serious injuries or loss of form, and that's in a truly punishing game. In a more gentile pursuit like golf, I think you could see someone with the requisite talent and good conditioning regime stay at the top for a very sustained time.
Conversely, in the womens game it's a bit different, it seems you get small pockets of top players for 3-4 years, but I think the reliance there is more on talent than the physical element.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by pedro on Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:28 pm

Jason Day also springs to my mind as somebody who could have short career. It seems he has already seen tons of injuries.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:35 am

Interesting Golf Digest story on how saving this last captains pick for the USA Ryder Cup team my be backfiring... big time. Specifically in the way it's hanging world #7 Bubba Watson out to dry.  https://t.co/sFnMxV577X

But what was also interesting was this little underlined tidbit from the excerpt below that reminded me of something... A little tidbit in this story that a lot of people aren't aware of. Tiger Woods, Mark O'Meara and David Duval took a lot of heat at the 1999 Ryder Cup over the distribution of money. The outcome was an amount would be donated to each players designed charity.

But turns out that wasn't the first time the issue came up. Seve Ballesteros was actually voted off the 1981 European Ryder Cup team over his insistence for appearance money for participating.

Bubba Watson—ranked seventh in the world, the highest Ryder Cup point-getter among non-qualifiers and a winner of two major championships—is not on the American team. No player with the equivalent of that record while in his prime has ever been passed up as a captain’s pick since the European team first employed wild-card choices in 1979, and the Americans followed in 1989. (In 1981, Seve Ballesteros was voted off the European team over a dispute about appearance money.)

And yes... the story is true.  Seve was insistent on getting appearance money for participating in the 1981 Ryder Cup and instead they voted him off the team.  Still doesn't change my opinion that Seve is the best Ryder Cup player ever

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by navyblueshorts on Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:33 am

super_realist wrote:It's totally true Navy, there are lots of players from different sports that are much tougher on the body  than Golf, yet have had far fewer and far less serious injuries than golfers.
9C's injuries are laughable for a golfer, you'd be hard pressed for even perpetual sicknotes like Darren Anderton or that horrible little oik Jack Wilshire to have had the length of time out he, or Olazabal have had out.

Sorry. I disagree. Your position is biased because of your view that golf is a wussy non-sport combined with a wilful lack of acknowledgment of the stresses involved in both hitting thousands of balls every week and the increased gym time etc that's now required.
There are shed loads of footballers (soccer and U.S.) injured all the time. Likewise rugby. Likewise athletics. Likewise tennis. Likewise boxing. Etc. As for 'seriousness', I'm pretty sure I don't recall any golfers being turned into a quadriplegic either. Or shattering bones. Or having to retire due to concussion.
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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by MontysMerkin on Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:57 am

Super hits it like a girl, and therefore cannot fathom how a golf swing could cause injury. Fact.
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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:05 am

Considering I'm probably the lowest handicapper on this board, I doubt I hit it like a girl.
Of course I can see how a swing can cause injury, sadly for 9C he can't, which is why he swings like a lunatic, which in conjunction with his poorly conditioned body has resulted in his embarrassing and career ending injuries. Doesn't take a genius to work that out.

Navy, yes, there are lots of other sportsmen who get injured, but their sports are more physical than golf. However, it appears the number and length of golf injuries is way above what it was years ago. So, are they working too hard for what their bodies can take, or are they not in sufficient shape for it, or are they not doing their training properly? No reason for injuries in golf to be that high.
You can't remember a golfer shattering a bone? 9C allegedly broke a leg, and Richard Boxall slipped on a tee because he was so poorly coordinated and broke an ankle.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Davie on Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:46 am

Boxy's injury was due to poor coordination? Wow I never knew that Rolling Eyes

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by JAS on Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:01 am

Given the title of the thread I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Bubba's swing, how far is he away from a debilitating long term injury?

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by pedro on Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:13 am

Bubba hits it hard, but isn't it only his drive that's crazy?

Furyk's swing is worse and even though he has had some injuries he's still competitive at 46.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:56 am

Good point Jas, there's probably a lot of mad axeman swings which will cause damage in future.
Furyk has an ungainly swing, but I wouldn't call it one for a potential injury, it's not stupid like Days, 9C or Rev Watson's.

People like Scott, Bella, Donald could play very well late on in career as they have smooth, simple swings.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:57 am

JAS,
You're right about Bubba - but I wonder if the fact that he's actually airborne at the moment of contact with his driver reduces the resistance on his body and susceptibility to damage?

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:58 am

Davie wrote:Boxy's injury was due to poor coordination? Wow I never knew that Rolling Eyes
Yes, he admitted as much during last years Open when they were talking about McIlroys injury.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by MontysMerkin on Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:16 am

It's not hard to see that if you repeat the same action time and time again that you will probably pick up an injury. Typing isn't exactly taxing but causes terrible injuries.
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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Davie on Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:18 am

super_realist wrote:
Davie wrote:Boxy's injury was due to poor coordination? Wow I never knew that Rolling Eyes
Yes, he admitted as much during last years Open when they were talking about McIlroys injury.

That was probably tongue in cheek - all the stories I can find about it, none suggested something as facile as poor coordination. He had been having leg problems all week and had even commented to his playing partner (Monty) that something felt wrong with is leg. Doesn't sound anything like "poor coordination" to me

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:28 am

Nevertheless, if you can't walk off a tee without tripping and twisting your ankle, it says something about your coordination.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Davie on Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:03 pm

super_realist wrote:Nevertheless, if you can't walk off a tee without tripping and twisting your ankle, it says something about your coordination.

Come on now you're making it up

Richard Boxall wrote:"I said to Monty round about the first tee that something was wrong with my leg. But he didn't know what was coming up and nor did I. "On the eighth both of us hit 1-iron, but I was a long way behind Monty and he asked if there was something wrong. "I bogeyed the hole, got to the next tee, took a drink and thought to myself 'I must commit to this next shot'. "I still didn't know what it was, but it was a bizarre feeling. I hit the 1-iron again and as I did there was this noise like a sack of potatoes splitting and I screamed and collapsed. I'm told the ball flew 240 yards and was right next to Monty's. I was conscious, but didn't know what was going on.

From http://www.scotsman.com/sport/painful-memories-for-boxall-17-years-on-1-1080598

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by pedro on Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:24 pm

Incidently Boxalls lone victory came at the 1990 Italian Open at GC Milano.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:31 pm

Denial that golf injuries are real and often debilitating or they are somehow due to lack of conditioning or coordination falls in the "bizarro world" category. The speed and forces in play among the top players today is beyond incredible. Magnify that by 1000's upon 1000's of swings, torque on the spine, impact to the ball/ground, etc... and it's actually a wonder there aren't more injuries and more lost time than we already see.

Problem with golf at the professional level is, seemingly minor injuries that wouldn't affect a player in a lot of "contact sports" is the difference of being able to play golf with any efficiency at all. Some guy in an American football game sprains a wrist or jams or breaks a finger, so what? Unless he's the QB, he can probably still play at 99% efficiency. But it golf, where the difference between guys winning events and those missing the cut is often only 4-shots a round... any injury that prevents a player from scoring at probably at least 95% efficiency is the difference between winning and being entirely non-competitive.

And the way these guys are working out today under the tutelage and supervision of qualified trainers, any suggestion that this increase of injuries is in large part due to lack of conditioning or coordination is... well.. beyond ENTIRELY stupid.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by MontysMerkin on Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:42 pm

robopz wrote:beyond ENTIRELY stupid.  
Sums it up nicely.
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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:43 pm

I'm not and never have said that golf injuries are not real, nor have I said that they are not debilitating. I am questioning whether there is any need for the number of golf injuries.

Tennis players, boxers, athletes also do thousands and thousands of repetitive actions just as golfers do, in a far more dynamic and reactive environment, yet, few of them have long term injuries that keep them out for half a season (or two years) as some golfers have been lately.

I am unsure whether there needs to be so many injuries in golf, and of the severity quoted.

I'm not saying it's a LACK of conditioning, I'm suggesting there might be a misappropriation of conditioning/practice which is contributing to these injuries. It's easy to say "well we are at the top of sports science right now, I think they know what they are doing" You could say the same tomorrow too or you could say they thought that 10 years ago, but we'd have learned something from today and tomorrow we'll learn something else. Knowledge is gained , it doesn't stand still.  Today's knowledge is only the pinnacle today. Sport is full of incidences of people thinking they are doing the right thing but which actually contributes to their injuries but don't find out until further down the line that their conditioning exercises were actually not doing the good they thought. I think we might be seeing something similar in golf despite the good intention of coaches.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:17 pm

super_realist wrote:
Tennis players, boxers, athletes also do thousands and thousands of repetitive actions just as golfers do, in a far more dynamic and reactive environment, yet, few of them have long term injuries that keep them out for half a season (or two years) as some golfers have been lately.
 IMO you have a big misconception of how many "debilitating" injuries there are out there... NOT that many really.  It's just when there is one, we notice it.  At any given time the PGA Tour's Major Medical list numbers around 20 players... but most of those injuries are situations that go back years and years. Then the beginning of the new season, the list goes up as the new ones for the next season are added.  Out of the 2015-16 current crop of roughly 210-215 exempt players on the PGAT there are roughly a dozen (13 actually) that have had an injury THIS YEAR that kept them out long enough to qualify for a minor or major medical.

Rob Bolton published the updated list with the new 2016-17 medicals yesterday.   On that list I count 13 exempt players with major or minor medicals resulting from injuries THIS SEASON... that means that approx 190-200 exempt players are not out an extended time with injury...  

Here's the list of players who have medicals from play in the 2015-16 season along with the number of medical starts they've been granted and the date of their last start. NOTE: There are and additional 6 minor and non-exempt medicals.  (http://www.pgatour.com/fantasy/medical-extensions.html)

Major Medical Category

21 - Nick Watney (Jan 16)
10 - Ian Poulter (May 16)
15 - Pat Perez (Feb 16)
19 - Tim Clark (Jan 16)
23 - Bob Estes (Nov 15)
20 - Ryo Ishikawa (Feb 16)
12 - Charlie Beljan (Apr 16)
23 - John Peterson (Nov 15)

Reshuffle Category
5 - Brian Davis (Jun 16)
11 - Shane Bertsch (Feb 16)

- - - -

Minor Medical
6 - Rory Sabatini
1 - Jeff Overton
3 - Will Wilcox

Non Exempt
9 - Nicolas Thompson
6 - Michael Putnam
11 - SJ. Park

NOTE: Player's like Tiger Woods who are otherwise fully exempt by other means do NOT show up on the medical exemption lists.  Bud Cauley is still on the list as an exempt top-125 money player... but only there to take his remaining 3 starts to see if he can gain top-125 FedEx Point status which gives him additional benefit.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:17 pm

Tennis players, boxers, athletes also do thousands and thousands of repetitive actions just as golfers do, in a far more dynamic and reactive environment, yet, few of them have long term injuries that keep them out for half a season (or two years) as some golfers have been lately.


Are you familiar with Rafa Nadal who is a every bit of a China Doll as Woods. He has injured his foot, knee, shoulder, wrist, hamstring, and back

How about Juan Del Potro? He has missed 13 out of 28 Grand Slams since he won the 2009 US Open

Tsonga has battled injuries his entire career.

Clearly a case of confirmation bias. Sionce Federer and Djokovic have been relatively injury free doesn't mean that trickles down to the journeyman players.

If I scan down the rankings for all the veteran tennis players, I suspect many of them have had injuries where they were out for a significant period of time

Fernando Verdasco has had injuries to his feet and knee.



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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:34 pm

Yes, I am, which is why I didn't include him in my general representation of tennis players. He was in good shape for a long long time, but latterly has fallen foul of injuries. I also didn't mention Del Potro.

My reference to tennis players, boxers etc was that golfers are not the only people to do repetitive movement nor are golfers the only people to have impact or spine rotation. Show me a sport which doesn't have that sort of strain on it.

I simply think that as we are in the early days of golfers behaving in a conventionally professional manner (excluding the likes of Lowry, Cabrera, Stadler etc) that it is possible that the training regimes of those players like McIlroy, Johnson , Day etc may not actually be the 100% safe manner which people seem to be alluding to.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:46 pm

super_realist wrote:I simply think that as we are in the early days of golfers behaving in a conventionally professional manner (excluding the likes of Lowry, Cabrera, Stadler etc) that it is possible that the training regimes of those players like McIlroy, Johnson , Day etc may not actually be the 100% safe manner which people seem to be alluding to.
I guess I'll go back and read, but I'm not seeing anything in the above suggesting that there's anything 100% safe in any training regime, rather it be properly or improperly conceived or practiced. IMO when you ratchet up the athleticism... the likelihood of injuries of increases... that's the whole point. Sure some may be from training, or improper training... but a lot of it is just the increase of speeds and forces in play from the increase of athleticism. I also believe with the more athletic players being more and more successful, it's causing others to potentially push beyond their athletic limits in an attempt to keep up with them... thus even more injuries. Vicious cycle.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:10 pm

10 starts on Poulters major medical?  Very Generous, IMO

Considering that he had already play 13 events in the 2015-16 season and never played more than 20 in his PGATour career.  And he average 16.6 events.

He would have had to play in every event that he was eligible, including two opposite field events.  

Memorial, Memphis, Quicken, Reno, Barbasol, Canadian, PGA, Travelers, Deere, Wyndham.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:59 pm

robopz wrote:
super_realist wrote:I simply think that as we are in the early days of golfers behaving in a conventionally professional manner (excluding the likes of Lowry, Cabrera, Stadler etc) that it is possible that the training regimes of those players like McIlroy, Johnson , Day etc may not actually be the 100% safe manner which people seem to be alluding to.
I guess I'll go back and read, but I'm not seeing anything in the above suggesting that there's anything 100% safe in any training regime, rather it be properly or improperly conceived or practiced.  IMO when you ratchet up the athleticism... the likelihood of injuries of increases... that's the whole point.  Sure some may be from training, or improper training... but a lot of it is just the increase of speeds and forces in play from the increase of athleticism.  I also believe with the more athletic players being more and more successful, it's causing others to potentially push beyond their athletic limits in an attempt to keep up with them... thus even more injuries.  Vicious cycle.  

For goodness sake, an attack of the take everything literally again. I'm not saying there is a 100% safe way to be a pro golfer other people are saying that's what I'm alluding to, i'm not, just as there isn't a 100% safe to do virtually anything. However given the number and severity of golf injuries these days, are we seeing something problematic in the training and practice of professionally golfers? Very possibly.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by McLaren on Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:39 pm

This is bat shit, even for super. Can the mod's not have a word with him before he ruins a thread?
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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by navyblueshorts on Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:25 pm

super_realist wrote:...and Richard Boxall slipped on a tee because he was so poorly coordinated and broke an ankle.
Ah yes. Knew there was that case but couldn't think of whom it was. He bust his shin if I recall, walking/falling down the front slope of a tee while walking off it. Poorly coordinated? Who knows. Unlucky? Undoubtedly.
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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by navyblueshorts on Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:29 pm

What we need is a :rowing back frantically: emote...
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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by navyblueshorts on Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:36 pm

super_realist wrote:...However given the number and severity of golf injuries these days, are we seeing something problematic in the training and practice of professionally golfers? Very possibly.
Maybe. Maybe not. I'd like to see some actual numbers cf. other sports. It may the case that 'real' athleticism in golf is relatively new and the sport is still learning what that means in terms of injury etc.
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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:00 pm

super_realist wrote: For goodness sake, an attack of the take everything literally again. I'm not saying there is a 100% safe way to be a pro golfer other people are saying that's what I'm alluding to, i'm not, just as there isn't a 100% safe to do virtually anything. However given the number and severity of golf injuries these days, are we seeing something problematic in the training and practice of professionally golfers? Very possibly.
For Gawd's sake... You're the one who brought up the 100% thing... Not me.

Let me try this a different way.  I think that there's little dispute that golf at the highest professional levels is being treated by its players as more and more of an athletic endeavor. Can we at least agree on that much?

And if that is true, then it seems to me the injury risks inherent in athletic endeavor would become more commonplace in golf. IMO that's exactly what we're seeing starting to happen.  Higher speeds and greater forces and impact in play on knees, wrists, hands, shoulders, backs... It's no mystery to me... with or without proper training methods.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:31 pm

Families sue Lee Westwood golf academy that promised to turn their children into the sporting stars of the future

"...The Lee Westwood Golf School in Cheshire charged pupils £15,000 a year, promising to turn children into the stars of the future. ..."

Promises?

Say What?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3794344/Families-sue-Lee-Westwood-golf-academy-promised-turn-children-sporting-stars-future.html

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by robopz on Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:53 pm

These guys never learn... Unless you're gonna be directly involved, not a good idea to be involved in a deal like this. Lee Trevino learned that the hard way in El Paso.

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Re: PGA Tour: Elementary Bubba Watson: Notes from the Ballwasher

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