England's Autumn selections

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 12th November
England vs South Africa
Twickenham

Saturday 19th November
England vs Fiji
Twickenham

Saturday 26th November
England vs Argentina
Twickenham

Saturday 3rd December
England vs Australia
Twickenham

Obviously we're not playing New Zealand, but it's the other 3/4 of the Rugby Championship plus Fiji for good measure.

So given form and fitness who's going to make our starting 15 / 23?

No Haskell, but we will have Hughes. Neither Farrell, Tuilagi and Brown have played yet and injuries are certain to intervene for others to lose out or benefit as happens.

Robson is pretty much nailed on for the bench. If Joseph is out Jones will be keen to get Farrell back in then surely Daly as Jones has indicated Salde for the Farrell 12 role longer term?

What's wrong with JJ?

BamBam wrote:What's wrong with JJ?

Not sure, but he has missed Bath's last 3 matches with some injury.

LondonTiger wrote:

BamBam wrote:What's wrong with JJ?

Not sure, but he has missed Bath's last 3 matches with some injury.

That might explain why Marchant is in the training squad - he's probably the closest we have to a direct replacement for JJ. Though as LT says, Daly (or possibly Slade) would be the form choices. A backline of either Ford/Faz/Daly or Ford/Faz/Slade would certainly give you options at first receiver, a two sided attack and plenty of kicking options out of the box, but might lose a little in terms of ability to convert half-chances ball in hand.

Injuries seem to be mounting up. I would like to see Cameron Nield of Sale get a chance to take over from Sam Jones. He is powerful, hits rucks and has a massive engine. Could really fill that Haskell role.

Don't know who EJ will replace Jones with, but I feel there must be a place for sizzling form in the squad (not the EPS). In the same way he says if Cipriani is the best he'll get his chance, the same must be true for Thompson.

I'd love to see him replace his teammate.

Fissler reporting that Jones has apparently broken his fibula so will be out for a while

BamBam wrote:Fissler reporting that Jones has apparently broken his fibula so will be out for a while

I did that as a lad - playing gridiron of all things - the good news is that it's not usually that painful (after the initial break it didn't hurt at all - I just couldn't put any weight on the front of my foot) and it's 6-8 weeks to heal with no lasting damage. The bad news is that he misses the AIs.

Every year its the same thing - one or more of the new guys immediately get a serious injury

It'll be interesting to see who he fills the 7 and with Haskell, Clifford and Jones out. Hughes looks dead on....

And 12 will probably be Farrell....

Is Will Fraser out injured? Or just out of contention because Burger has taken his spot at Sarries?

Anthony Watson has apparently broken his jaw

What are they doing in training???

Cumbrian wrote:What are they doing in training???

Sam Jones got his injury practising judo with Maro Itoje.

Increases the chance will see Roko on one of the wings during the Autum internationals, although I suppose May will have a few games to show what he can do coming back from injury.

Practicing judo with 18 stone of insanely competitive, untrained, Maro Itoje sounds like a fantastic idea

Yeah surely means Nowell/Roko to start on the wings with May needing games

Sounds like the Leicester way of training...full on!

Is May scheduled to start a game? He's been out for a long time now.

Surely May is not in consideration...it'll be Nowell and Roko starting with Yarde in consideration.

Marcus Watson is available

So injured so far are:
Clifford
Watson
Jones
Haskell
Burrell
Tuilagi

Have I missed any?

yappysnap wrote:So injured so far are:
Clifford
Watson
Jones
Haskell
Burrell
Tuilagi

Have I missed any?

Throw in concerns over Hartley (not played for almost a month) Farrell (not played this season), add Nowell & May (both just coming back from injury) to the mix. Also is Marler fit - he seems to have limped off early a couple of times this season

A small glimmer of hope for Wade? An injury more and he must come into consideration.

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:So injured so far are:
Clifford
Watson
Jones
Haskell
Burrell
Tuilagi

Have I missed any?

Throw in concerns over Hartley (not played for almost a month) Farrell (not played this season), add Nowell & May (both just coming back from injury) to the mix. Also is Marler fit - he seems to have limped off early a couple of times this season

Marler was concussed two weeks ago, completed the return to play protocol and played 30 mins last weekend. Think he's OK.

JJ back for Bath this weekend, hopefully enough time to get rid of any rustiness before the AIs

No 7&1/2 wrote:A small glimmer of hope for Wade? An injury more and he must come into consideration.

That would be interesting ..

I'd have him as 4th in the pecking order until May can prove he's over his injury

Is Wade in any of the squads??

Wade doesn't fit how England play.

Unless EJ is breaking with tradition and changing gameplan to match players then I can't see Wade getting in.

This Ai will see just how good a coach E J is. he all ways picks the best 23 for each game. With so many injuries it will be a ( big ask) for the fans to expect a clean sweap.


I just hope that the players that are injured get fit soon. Will be nice to see how the team/squad respond's.

I trust EJ to pick the best players avalible. lets hope the players he pick's are the best for the job to be done.

Care sitting out this weekend with rib injury, hopes to be back for the AI's

Wade is too good for this England side.

Simpson, Cipriani, Eastmond & Wade.

None are any good and so will have to play for that bunch of duffers who've been sent to coventry.

This Saturday will once again prove how poor they all are.

For me the biggest question is around Farrell's fitness?

The fact is we don't have a 'go to' 12 option to replace Farrell, who himself is part of a make do half back solution.

So what will Eddie Jones do if Farrell is unavailable, or even if he is, what is the longer term solution?

My view is that we should give youth its head and select Harry Malinder along side Ford and Joseph.

If not Malinder then who is the alternative?

I suppose it could be argued that under EJ we have over achieved in the short term and so with this latest spate of unfortunate injuries will perform at a level closer to a realistic expectation.

My own view is that EJ is no fool and will come through even if the progression curve is more wobbly than it has been to date.

I agree....Jones will he prepared for the injuries. He'll just continue to give players specific instructions.

We definitely have players who can do that. Hell Mark Wilson could cone in and do Haskells role so surely Hughes can!

Hughes made 17 tackles and 4 turnovers last weekend so the work rate is obviously there

Not really sure who's in the wrong over these training injuries.

RFU negotiated release dates with Premiership Rugby (PR). Teams now say those release dates are badly timed, and says PR struck a bad deal. In return, PR maintains that the training sessions were more intense than they agreed. RFU says there were no restrictions on intensity.

If the teams feel PR struck a bad deal, then that's a matter for the league to sort out. If the RFU ought to be able to rely on PR to speak for the interests of the teams.

It does sound like no real consideration was given to what these two day training camps would look like. PR must have thought they would just be time to keep all players on message for the international season. Jones sees it as time to put the through their paces to see how they stand. Other coaches might be inclined to go the first route but anyone who employs Jones ought to know that he drives players hard all the time.

Rugby Fan wrote:Not really sure who's in the wrong over these training injuries.

RFU negotiated release dates with Premiership Rugby (PR). Teams now say those release dates are badly timed, and says PR struck a bad deal. In return, PR maintains that the training sessions were more intense than they agreed. RFU says there were no restrictions on intensity.

If the teams feel PR struck a bad deal, then that's a matter for the league to sort out. If the RFU ought to be able to rely on PR to speak for the interests of the teams.

It does sound like no real consideration was given to what these two day training camps would look like. PR must have thought they would just be time to keep all players on message for the international season. Jones sees it as time to put the through their paces to see how they stand. Other coaches might be inclined to go the first route but anyone who employs Jones ought to know that he drives players hard all the time.

Yeah there is a divide still on how players should be managed through the whole season, but the point of EPS was to give primacy to England (and the England teams medics advice) on leading that.

My gripe here, when you see multiple serious injuries from a two day training camp, is that the sessions don't appear to have been safe or controlled enough for any point in the season. It may of course have just been bad luck that two significant injuries coincided, it is a pretty small sample to make a jump to the conclusion I have above granted. But I want to be angry about something so I am.
The questions being asked by others above regarding the sense of getting aggressive 18 stone+ men to play Judo with relatively little experience going straight into throws and flips are legit. Its not been uncommon historically for martial artists to be bought in to help assist developing tackling techniques (Tigers had UFC trainer/cornerman Nathan Leverton as a consultant for a while) but this seems to have been a little different and following the stroy back a bit of a "bright spark" demand from Jones to his coaches to go and do a thing. How much this session had really been thought through I dont know. But again for the purposes of outrage Im going to imagine that Jones bullied his coach into getting Chuck Norris in and had his players fight to the death for his amusement to "toughen up their defence".

There were questions raised in the Johnson era about the number of injuries that occurred during training sessions, which were notoriously hard ( and often featured Lewis Moody, Simon Shaw, Joe Worsley and a host of other borderline serial killers so no great surprise really!). Injuries more than anything else blighted that cycle, for all the talk of poor selections much was driven by a desperate search for fit players capable of stepping straight into a gap.

England through the EPS not only get to decide if they want a hard ass session to check the sharpness of their players but also have the responsibility to manage those players and mitigate risk of injury against the workload. In reality its pure conjecture that they have gone too far here, the clubs will be outraged form any injury (they even moan about ones in games) ..its in their interests to look after their own. But I do have a genuine concern that we could move back to a situation where England are beset by injuries due to the demands put on the players.
Jones has been extremely lucky through the first 2 series of his tenure to have a squad with relatively few injuries and being able to sustain a continuity in selection. The numbers we are now seeing really put the squad in line with whats been the norm for the past decade + ...around a quarter to a third of the probable first choice squad unavailable at any time. If the numbers continue to increase then we really will see England suffer, yes it "gives a chance" to new players to stake a claim, but continuity, experience and team building is just as important as getting a natural turnover of fresh blood/form picks/stop gaps.


I'm not really sure what my core point is, feel free to invent one and criticize it.

Sack Jones

kingelderfield wrote:For me the biggest question is around Farrell's fitness?

The fact is we don't have a 'go to' 12 option to replace Farrell, who himself is part of a make do half back solution.

So what will Eddie Jones do if Farrell is unavailable, or even if he is, what is the longer term solution?

My view is that we should give youth its head and select Harry Malinder along side Ford and Joseph.

If not Malinder then who is the alternative?

Slade. Mallinder ain't ready yet.

Bit hard to defend your training regime when you've just seriously crocked 2 players in a few days. Unless you believe in survival of the fittest - bring on the Thunderdome!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37581044
So, Brown and Marler also came away from the training camp with niggles and so were unable to train with club in the run up to weekends matches.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Bit hard to defend your training regime when you've just seriously crocked 2 players in a few days. Unless you believe in survival of the fittest - bring on the Thunderdome!

Even a cursory look at Jones' coaching record will show that he pushes players. Luke Thompson was interviewed after his appointment was announced:

Will Japan’s players miss Jones? “Tough question. They probably won’t miss the training sessions. Some players might not like him, but you don’t mind so much when you get the results. I imagine England’s players won’t like the fact that he’ll work them harder than ever.

Jones will always work to the limit. Rod Kafer says that his methods mean "sometimes he will break it rather than fix it." The RFU and Premiership Rugby have no excuse for not knowing that.

Breaking legs and jaws while doing judo practice does not sound like an exercise that was risk assessed properly.

LondonTiger wrote:Breaking legs and jaws while doing judo practice does not sound like an exercise that was risk assessed properly.

But that's Eddie, ain't it. That's Eddie being Eddie - smash'em up, abuse 'em, no prisoners, no pussies in my team, mate!
Actually sounds a bit like what Cockerill used to engage in with Leicester, when the lads wore their training ground injuries with pride ("That's how hard we train, mate!"). Could often prove an issue when players needed to turn up for play-day though. You gotta know your priorities.

LondonTiger wrote:Breaking legs and jaws while doing judo practice does not sound like an exercise that was risk assessed properly.

This is Eddie Jones. The guy who had no interest in resting anyone for the summer tours, despite the fact that some of them had barely had a proper break from rugby for two years. Instead, he was proud of how they managed a last win when they were out on their feet. This is known behaviour for him, so he's unlikely to change.

Ok the Judo leg break is different but broken jaws do happen. Unless we know how it happened we cant say its brutal or not.

Plus (within reason) I actually like to see some intensity in training. Keeps people on their toes...and gives the newbies a little insight into what they can expect on the battlefield.

Eddie is a sadist though. He enjoys it. Look at his eyes dazzle when talking about all the things his team is going to do to an opposition. He needs muzzling!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ok the Judo leg break is different but broken jaws do happen. Unless we know how it happened we cant say its brutal or not.

Plus (within reason) I actually like to see some intensity in training. Keeps people on their toes...and gives the newbies a little insight into what they can expect on the battlefield.  

Its a game of rugby not a UKIP meeting they are attending. If they can expect a broken jaw and a broken leg then I think most would retire pretty young.

Its a milder version of the SAS selection debate. Applicants have died during the selection process while experiencing extreme conditions. General public say it should be properly risk assessed - Selectors say that's how they determine who has the right stuff!

I've been on the wrong of end of that kind of training session. Went to my first pre-season at a club here when I moved to Germany, coach was clueless. Had us doing tackle drills first session, "100%", no tackle bags or anything. We get instructed to run in a straight line with the ball, while someone runs at us from the other way and tackles us....."100%".

The first time I step the inevitable hit and the coach gives me a bollocking and tells me to just run straight. Second time I run straight and the other guy smashes me, clean breaks my rib with a loud CRACK and that's my pre-season over. I never went back, that sort of thing in training is just retarded.

propdavid_london wrote:Its a milder version of the SAS selection debate.  Applicants have died during the selection process while experiencing extreme conditions.  General public say it should be properly risk assessed - Selectors say that's how they determine who has the right stuff!

The SAS, having existed for a long time and having amassed tons of information on how men cope with stress and battle and deprivation and interrogation and so on.  The issue people would have is that they should know about heat exhaustion and what it does to a body rapidly dehydrating under strenuous and hot conditions.  Pushing men to that extreme does not assess abilty, all it says is that some men were lucky enough not to be hit with the full force of severe heat stroke and a few unlucky souls were.  You can be as able and fit as you like but if your chemistry cooks, it cooks and you die.  You can't train a soldier how to adjust chemistry and survive, you can't tell him to man up and "recover now!!!'  'Recover now, that is an order!"

The SAS should know enough about things to have had a more rigorous continuous health assessment during those exercises.  The object is to teach a soldier what to expect and harden him to what's expected. Killing him is a bad assessment strategy not the uncovering of a weak soldier.

I bow to your superior knowledge on the SAS training Fly.
I was just drawing a parallel with intensity of training to the point of breaking. I would suggest that its also about testing personal limits and finding out how far an individual is willing to push beyond - the mental aspect of this.

You are right though - the people in control of the exercise should well know the limits that can and cant be pushed.

In this example we are dropping Team GB judo experts into a group of pro-rugby athletes - presumably injury is coming from doing something out of the ordinary rather than pushing the endurance limits in an exercise that they are familiar with.

Catching a stray elbow, bodies twisting in ways they haven't before, partnering a little guy with a big fella! In retrospect perhaps they should have provided all the chaps with boxing headguards and body pads!