England's Autumn selections

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Post by kingelderfield on Wed 14 Sep 2016, 9:30 pm

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 12th November
England vs South Africa
Twickenham

Saturday 19th November
England vs Fiji
Twickenham

Saturday 26th November
England vs Argentina
Twickenham

Saturday 3rd December
England vs Australia
Twickenham

Obviously we're not playing New Zealand, but it's the other 3/4 of the Rugby Championship plus Fiji for good measure.

So given form and fitness who's going to make our starting 15 / 23?

No Haskell, but we will have Hughes. Neither Farrell, Tuilagi and Brown have played yet and injuries are certain to intervene for others to lose out or benefit as happens.

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Post by Cumbrian on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 7:05 am

yappysnap wrote:Definitely out:
Manu
Kruis
Haskell
Watson
Nowell
LCD
Clifford

Maybe out:
Hartley
Itoje

Throw in Haskell's squad replacements Sam Jones and Mike Williams too.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 8:29 am

Isnt Williams injured - the Leicester back rower aswell? Who was being earmarked as the 7 option.

Well I guess this is when we get to see just how good our much vaunted "strength in depth" is.

1 Mako - Looks in unbelievable form!!! Playing like a Fly half!!
2 George
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 Robshaw
7 Hughes (Maybe young Chisholm might get a check out)
8 Billy V

9 Youngs / Care / Robson....etc etc (Full choice to pick from)
10 Ford
11 Yarde
12 Farrell
13 Joseph
14 Roko
15 Brown


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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 9:10 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Isnt Williams injured - the Leicester back rower aswell? Who was being earmarked as the 7 option.

Well I guess this is when we get to see just how good our much vaunted "strength in depth" is.

1 Mako - Looks in unbelievable form!!! Playing like a Fly half!!
2 George
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 Robshaw
7 Hughes (Maybe young Chisholm might get a check out)
8 Billy V

9 Youngs / Care / Robson....etc etc (Full choice to pick from)
10 Ford
11 Yarde
12 Farrell
13 Joseph
14 Roko
15 Brown


That's a fair shout if we assume Jones' thinking runs in a straight line. In his previous matches, we've enjoyed a boost from the bench but he'll now have to rely on some players he hasn't worked with so much.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 9:48 am

I am starting to struggle to pick a bench.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 9:56 am

16 Mullan / Auterac?
17 Taylor / LCD
18 Sinkler / Hill / Brookes
19 Attwood / Kitchener / Slater
20 Chisholm? / Mark Wilson? / Thompson @ Wasps / Harrison /
21 Any of the scrum halves
22 Daly
23 Goode

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 10:08 am

LCD is out, Taylor seems to be struggling for fitness atm too.
Second row and back row becoming an issue, especially with how fragile Lawes has been this season and the games he has missed.

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Post by BamBam on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 10:11 am

Is Marler out too?

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Post by beshocked on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 11:00 am

Surely this opens the door for Matt Kvesic. How's he been playing? Wink

Think Kvesic would be a bit aggrieved if Hughes is picked at 7.

Would be a small backrow if Hughes was in there....

It's good to have a big pack when facing the Springboks.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 11:09 am

BamBam wrote:Is Marler out too?

Not sure, but think I heard that Adam Jones played nigh on a full game for quins at LH recently.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 11:15 am

Marler played this weekend.

I'm assuming you mean not a small back row if Hughes is there beshocked! Still think he'll go with Itoje or Harrison if available. I'd still be tempted by Kitcherner to the bench.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 11:25 am

I was joking of course. Hughes is huge.

I doubt Itoje is available now.

Didn't watch Castres vs Saints but the result doesn't make for good reading in regards to form of Saints players.

Now maybe Harrison was the bright spark who shone despite the heavy loss. I don't know. Was he?

Cannot imagine Harrison's confidence is at an all time high.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 11:37 am

Nobody from the Saints side came out with any credit in that came, they were minced.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 11:41 am

We should discount Harrison, Hartley, Lawes and Malinder?

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 11:47 am

Didn't realise LCD was out aswell..and Taylor struggling?

So its Jamie George to start and Ross Batty on the bench... Rolling Eyes

On a serious note...does Yeandle come in to the equation then? Or Tom Youngs back in the camp?


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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 11:47 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:We should discount Harrison, Hartley, Lawes and Malinder?

Why do you suggest this?

I'd personally only consider Hartley and Lawes, but that's just an opinion.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 12:02 pm

I'd now be looking at three in the sa 1st squad bar Mallinder, but bringing in that defeat into the equation for Harrison would include all 4 of those players.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 12:03 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Didn't realise LCD was out aswell..and Taylor struggling?

So its Jamie George to start and Ross Batty on the bench... Rolling Eyes

On a serious note...does Yeandle come in to the equation then? Or Tom Youngs back in the camp?

Given Hartley played, if Taylor is out, again not confirmed it'll be Youngs.

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Post by Cumbrian on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 12:27 pm

With the patchwork nature of the team I think we are going to need to include Lawes and Hartley if they are fit. Third hooking option is looking stretched now though. If George/ Hartley get injured we are knackered. Does Tom Youngs get a call?
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Post by lostinwales on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 12:30 pm

Tom Youngs would very much be a stopgap but at least he's an experienced international who is in great form at the moment.

(Queue next injury... *sigh)

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 12:42 pm

Then it'll be down to Wee Harry Thacker!

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 12:46 pm

Tom Youngs picard

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Post by Poorfour on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 12:54 pm

Thacker is an option. Rob Buchanan has made himself Quins' first choice over fellow Saxons Ward and Gray in the last few games (and the AIs are played at home, so Quins' dire away form is less of a worry).

Baby Chisholm continues to impress, and stay fit.
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Post by king_carlos on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 2:19 pm

If Itoje is out then I'd back Hartley to start for his leadership. Jones has picked him fresh of an injury break before so I can't see him being reticent about doing so again. Especially as Kruis out will mean Lawes calling the line-out, keeps that club hooker-jumper partnership together.

1.Mako
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Lawes
6.Robshaw
7. ??
8.B Vunipola

9.Youngs
10.Ford

11.Yarde/May
12.Farrell
13.Joseph
14.Roko
15.Brown

One thing's for sure, we are going to find out just how strong the core of a side Lancaster brought through is! Shift Robshaw to 7 and bring back Tom Wood on the blindside, that pack - the usual Mako or Marler juggling aside - is Bombers starting 8.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 2:26 pm

Surely Thacker is too small for international hooker Poorfour. At 7 yes very possibly...but not hooker.


Injuries:
Manu
Kruis
Haskell
Watson
Nowell
LCD
Clifford
Ewers
Underhill - Would have been a great emergency circumstances time now!
Mike Williams
Sam Jones

Maybe out:
Hartley
Itoje

One name being mooted elsewhere is Jackson Wray?

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 2:36 pm

Just heard a classic...

If Kvesic was the only flanker left fit....Stefon Armitage would get a recall Laugh

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Post by nathan on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 2:50 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Tom Youngs picard

Hehe, this makes me Laugh

Did you see him against racing, throwing straight and hooking the ball in his mom performance

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 2:56 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely Thacker is too small for international hooker Poorfour. At 7 yes very possibly...but not hooker.


Injuries:
Manu
Kruis
Haskell
Watson
Nowell
LCD
Clifford
Ewers
Underhill - Would have been a great emergency circumstances time now!
Mike Williams
Sam Jones

Maybe out:
Hartley
Itoje

One name being mooted elsewhere is Jackson Wray?

Don armand was another rumored option who I also believe is injured. Not sure where Ewers is at (Actually having checked I now know where Dave Ewers is at... guess...)

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Post by BamBam on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 3:52 pm

Itoje out for 6 weeks and will have surgery

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Post by BamBam on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 3:58 pm

BamBam wrote:Don't forget the annual carnage that the early European games often inflict

Posted in mid September.. One of the few occasions I would rather not have been right!!

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Post by beshocked on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 4:09 pm

I think injuries also come down to a lack of rest for players. A cumulative strain on the body.

The amount of workload these players have on them.... is really a coincidence the likes of Kruis,Itoje,Hartley,Watson,Farrell,Haskell etc having injuries? They've played a lot of rugby in the last year. Quite a few key players from the Australia tour....

Sure I know there have been players who didn't tour Australia but France coincidentally in the past have done well after a Lions tour....

Problem is that clubs need their players to perform and the national side need it too.

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Post by BamBam on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 4:23 pm

Possible beshocked, but thats probably more applicable to the muscle injuries

Impact injuries like broken bones are unlikely to be due to workload

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 5:22 pm

nathan wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Tom Youngs picard

Hehe, this makes me Laugh

Did you see him against racing, throwing straight and hooking the ball in his mom performance

Nope.

Quite interesting that it's more of a surprise he's managing to do the basics well though. The guy is at his level (quite often his basics aren't), good luck to him.

Don't really want to get into a Youngs argument again though, I'm happy he's well away from the white jersey and playing for Tigers.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 5:46 pm

Not a surprise really and already included in a wider Jones squad...

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Post by majesticimperialman on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 6:29 pm

the amount of injuries England are getting. makes you wander if they will have enough players left to make a team/squad for the Ai.

I just hope we do not get any more.

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Post by hugehandoff on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 6:33 pm

The injury to Itoje is probably nature taking care of him after so much rugby. Hopefully it is just a one off and the rest will be most welcome and in his interest for the rest of the long season ahead? The priorities are the 6Ns and then the Lions and of course the business end of the season for Sarries. I think there was a real danger of burnout if he just kept on playing so hopefully this is a good thing. With Kruis also injured it gives England's back up players a chance to shine. For Launchbury, Lawes and Attwood this is a real opportunity if they want to get on that plane to NZ. Of course the back row will be interesting for sure.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 6:57 pm

Given Jones is expected to name a 33 man squad on Wednesday, who can we say are relatively nailed on? I'd say:

1.Mako, Marler, Mullan
2.Hartley, George, Taylor
3.Cole, Hill, Sinckler
4.Launchbury, Ewels
5.Lawes, ?
6.Robshaw, Hughes
7. ?, ?
8.Billy, Beaumont

9.Youngs, Care, Robson
10.Ford, ?

11.Yarde, May
12.Farrell, Slade
13.Joseph, Daly
14.Rokoduguni
15.Brown, Goode

With Ford, Farrell and Slade all covering 10, I wouldn't be surprised if the 'second fly-half space' above went to Ben Te'o. vomit

The last lock spot will be filled by Attwood I'd guess given the Saxons squad. Kitchener and Slater are playing well too and can call a line-out. Alternatively Beaumont could be named as a lock. With the back row injuries I wouldn't make it harder for myself if I were coach though! Whistle

That leaves 7 where who knows what Jones and Borthwick will do. If Harrison can't get a recall currently I doubt he will. Similar for Kvesic, if Jones won't give him a chance with these injuries he likely never will. Guy Thompson should be in with a shout.

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Post by kingelderfield on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 7:27 pm

I think Sinckler went of injured?

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 9:17 pm

Kvesic has to be given a shot in the squad. Everyone else is injured or not in form!

Whatever people say, he does consistently play well.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 9:23 pm

He could be the guy who only gets his chance through this sort of 'crisis' then nails it.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 9:30 pm

He's a player I rate 7.5. He always seems to do most things right.

That's why it still puzzles me what it is that the top coaches like Jones and Lancaster don't like in hin.

It must be quite obvious to them though

The other thing all these injuries will give us. Is a chance to see how our new coaching team works under a lot more pressure.

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Post by yappysnap on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 9:32 pm

Sinckler played against Edinburgh and scored another try. I think he was ok, got concussed a couple of games back making a maaaassive carry but keeps on keeping on.

Next summer I think is his chance, not yet.

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Post by yappysnap on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 9:34 pm

Kvesic doesn't carry physically enough apparently. According to quotes from the England coaches.

That seems to be what he's judged on most, rightly or wrongly.

There was also a stat last season that he gave away a lot of pens, perhaps too many for Jones?

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 9:51 pm

Haskell was a penalty magnet and they sorted that quickly.

Im not sure kvesics carrying is that bad...but I guess I'm not in the mix and an international coach.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 9:53 pm

yappysnap wrote:Kvesic doesn't carry physically enough apparently. According to quotes from the England coaches.

That seems to be what he's judged on most, rightly or wrongly.

There was also a stat last season that he gave away a lot of pens, perhaps too many for Jones?
He wins lots of pens and turnovers.

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Post by Cumbrian on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 8:26 am

You must say that if Kvesic doesn't get a chance this autumn he isn't going to get one. I am reading more and more about a back-row of Robshaw, Hughes and Vunipola, but that just seems too slow to me. It works with Haskell because he is a fast and dynamic back-rower with a huge engine, he just doesn't stop. Hughes doesn't strike me as that type of player. Hughes seems like a powerful wrecking ball used to short bursts of action.
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Post by tooboredtowork on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 8:34 am

Has Kvesic even been a regular starter at Glouc this season?

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 8:50 am

tooboredtowork wrote:Has Kvesic even been a regular starter at Glouc this season?

Yes. Though they have rotated a fair bit.



Eddie Jones seems to have decided that we do not have a genuine 7 amongst our mature players. He has pinned his longer term hopes on Underhill (and possibly Evans) but for now he has decided that the likes of Kvesic, Wallace etc are not good enough. First he was looking at Mike Williams and Sam Jones (both 6s), then Itoje and apparently now Hughes. The job description for the 7 in this set-up is fairly simple, hit every ball carrier and breakdown with ooomph, but as said by others does Hughes have the fitness needed?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 9:33 am

Hughes has really upped his workrate this season. He's been getting close to 20 tackles in some games, he was pretty much half that at best last year.

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Post by beshocked on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 9:40 am

It's a shame Itoje is out because the amount of turnovers he makes is very impressive. In that sense Itoje is more like a backrower than 2nd row. Of course turnovers isn't the only role of a backrower.

Itoje makes the most turnovers per match that he's involved in than any other player in England I believe.

The only thing that has kept Kvesic ahead in the turnover stats in the AP has been Itoje playing for England (where Itoje made more turnovers).

Itoje is a big blow, no doubt about that.

http://www.lionsrugby.com/news/lionswatch-records-tumble-in-round-six-as-the-top-dogs-start-to-emerge-14833#.WA8ZEOArKhc


Cumbrian completely agree. It's too slow with Hughes,Robshaw and Vunipola - you basically have 2 no 8s there.

Sgt Pooly even if Hughes's work rate is up, he's not exactly a turnover king is he?


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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 9:42 am

Is Hughes that much slower than Itoje/Robshaw?

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