NZ weaknesses

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Post by Not grey and not a ghost on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 4:10 am

Eddie Jones has said he will focus on the All Black's weaknesses. He hasn't outlined what they are. So lets take some educated guesses.

Here are mine (bear in mind I'm a Kiwi).

1. Poor goal kicking. The current kickers are languishing well below 80%. The AB's current run is based on stopping others coring tries whislt scoring a bucket load. Control possession and field position and you're in with a charge.

2. Lack of a drop kick specialist (see above)

3. Defence of the driving maul. The driving maul isn't big in NZ. It's a potential weakness in the AB's half (penalties), especially inside their 22 (tries).

4. Commitment of small numbers to the breakdown. NZ tean to D up if they think the ruck is unwinable. Numbers to the breakdown could equal a monopoly on possession.

5. Weak defence behind the breakdown. NZ tends to fan out the are vulnerable to a pick and go, if executed well with pace and power.

6. NZ lack genuine pace outwide.

7. A focus on fitness, means they can be vulnerable to a power gane early on. Get point and aspply pressure and see what happens.

Any thoughts.

5.

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 5:02 am

Eddie must be ripping into his new job if hes up to the point of preparing for a game in two years time.

OR maybe its a bit of a shot at fellow Australian Michael Cheika and the recent wallaby performances against the ABs.

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Post by Not grey and not a ghost on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 5:13 am

aucklandlaurie wrote: Eddie must be ripping into his new job if hes up to the point of preparing for a game in two years time.

OR maybe its a bit of a shot at  fellow Australian Michael Cheika and the recent wallaby performances against the ABs.

I think he's attempting mind games with Hansen and catering to the English Press/public. The question of weaknesses is still interesting. To some degree NZ and England are probably a bit further on in their development than Australia/ South Africa.

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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 6:30 am

It's really weird the way Jones goes on about the ABs. He's like a crazy obsessive weirdo stalker.
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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 7:19 am

The ferocity & intensity Argentina showed in the first half against NZ certainly punched holes in their defence. Whether a current team can keep that going for a whole game is questionable.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 8:32 am

ebop wrote:It's really weird the way Jones goes on about the ABs. He's like a crazy obsessive weirdo stalker.
You could say the same about the way Steve Hansen goes on about Michael Cheika. The truth is, they only do so because journalists keep asking.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 8:47 am

Yeah its all mind games...and keeping the media happy.



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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 8:49 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
ebop wrote:It's really weird the way Jones goes on about the ABs. He's like a crazy obsessive weirdo stalker.
You could say the same about the way Steve Hansen goes on about Michael Cheika. The truth is, they only do so because journalists keep asking.
Nup, Jones is more of a stalker, a crazy stalker

Keep an eye on him
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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 8:58 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah its all mind games...and keeping the media happy.


Yeah of course

Question is, can he deliver on all his posturing? If England flop we'll have a field day. Probably at your guys expense. That's in the future though.
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Post by Cyril on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 9:21 am

The article I read when Jones talked about NZ weaknesses was when he was being asked about Gatland's Lions chances next year.

If it winds up NZ fans, all the better. A touchy lot. Never, ever criticise or even mention Brand AB without asking permission first.

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Post by propdavid_london on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 9:23 am

Food poisoning!

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 9:33 am

Cyril wrote:The article I read when Jones talked about NZ weaknesses was when he was being asked about Gatland's Lions chances next year.

It was Jones first interview with the BBC since Gatland's appointment.

He was asked whether he felt Borthwick and Gustard should be assistant coaches. He said there were plenty of good candidates, but would be delighted if they were called up.

He was asked if the Lions could win and he said they have a great chance and then made the weaknesses comment.



That people wish to re-invent what was said, and create a drama where none exists is I guess typical of any net forum. Heaven forbid anyone would actually read what was actually said before jumping on the offended bandwagon.

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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 9:35 am

What drama?

No drama
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Post by yappysnap on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 9:40 am

Ebop, you were basically crying because someone had said the AB's may have a weakness. As in genuine tears.

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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 9:43 am

Lol, I was saying Jones is a crazy stalker

And he is

That's not crying
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Post by yappysnap on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 9:44 am

I can see the tears

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Post by yappysnap on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 9:44 am

We all can

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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 9:47 am

Haha

Cry

You got me

To be fair, I have nothing to be sad about

Think about it
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 9:49 am

It's like fight club: the first rule about the All Blacks is...you don't talk about the All Blacks.

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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 9:51 am

The team that can't be named

You got it 7.5
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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 9:51 am

But seriously

Let's list 'all' these weaknesses
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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 9:52 am

Sorry 'significant' weaknesses
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 9:57 am

Ah, you've seen a different set of quotes possibly?

From the BBC:

The British and Irish Lions have a "great chance" of beating a New Zealand side with "definite weaknesses", says England head coach Eddie Jones.

Warren Gatland's side tour New Zealand next summer, and are underdogs to win the series against the world champions.

But Jones feels the Lions are capable of toppling the All Blacks for the first time since 1971.

"There are definite weaknesses in the New Zealand side," Jones told BBC Sport.

"The Lions have to attack those weaknesses and then play to their strengths."

Steve Hansen's All Blacks have not lost a Test at home since 2009, a run of 43 games, but Jones added: "The Lions have a great chance.

"Of course it is going to be tough, but out of the four teams [England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland], they can put out a great squad of 35, 36 players more than capable of taking the Kiwis on."

Jones was backed to coach the Lions himself after guiding England to a Grand Slam and a series whitewash of Australia, but was unavailable because of his commitment to the Rugby Football Union.

However, he feels the Lions have the right man in Gatland, who led the Lions to victory in Australia in 2013.

Gatland, confirmed as Lions coach last Wednesday, will lead the team until the end of the tour next July, having taken a sabbatical from his job as Wales head coach.

"It's a great appointment," Jones said. "Warren has done it before, and he has a great appreciation of European rugby.

"He knows the players in England, Scotland and Ireland - obviously he knows the Welsh players - so he will do a great job."

Jones' focus is now on the first match of England's autumn series, against South Africa at Twickenham, with the squad named at the end of this month.

"We always ask the players to go back to their clubs and perform like international players," Jones said.

"So if players don't perform at that level, then the selection will change."

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 10:00 am

ebop wrote:But seriously

Let's list 'all' these weaknesses
The NZ supporter who started this thread already listed his in the original post. What are your thoughts on his selections?

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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 10:05 am

Where are yours?
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 10:17 am

Seems a pretty fair reflection. NZ have never struck me as a team with a perfect defence but other teams generally don't take 90-100% of their chances. The huge difference with NZ is they generally do.

Not sure their goal kicking is particularly weak and despite Hansen whining about driving mauls don't see them as an 'easy' way to score against them; for a start it's hard to even get the chance to form one when playing NZ!

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Post by beshocked on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 10:39 am

Seriously do you think Eddie Jones would say - "Nope, the ABs have no weaknesses, they cannot be beaten".

We all know New Zealand are a great rugby team but no side is unbeatable.

It's been a long time since a NH side has beaten NZ but our best example recently was in 2012 with England.

How they did it - very physical performance from the forwards, keeping the scoreboard ticking over and passes stuck in the backs.

England needed to hit NZ not with one salvo but two or three. Manu played out of his skin.

Not even NZ could recover from the blows England hit them with.

Unsettle the key NZ players - the likes of Smith and Carter had uncharacteristically poor games.


Need a huge performance from the forwards. I would say that England are starting to build a pack that could challenge the ABs, also England are building depth that means they can play for 80 minutes. George is an upgrade on Youngs and he's done some bits of skill when he's come on which has helped England finish off/close out matches.

Rugby is about the squad, not just the first XV.

NZ are a 80 minutes plus team.

Problem with a team like Wales is they are only a 60 minute team tops (they sometimes start the game on the 20 minute mark instead of kick off. It means they can match someone like the ABs for even 60 minutes but get blown away as they tire.

Ireland almost beat the ABs recently but ABs played till the final whistle and won the game in the last play. It's what they do.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 10:58 am

ebop wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah its all mind games...and keeping the media happy.


Yeah of course

Question is, can he deliver on all his posturing? If England flop we'll have a field day. Probably at your guys expense. That's in the future though.

He's delivered so far.

If he loses to NZ...its not biggie as EVERYONE loses to NZ.

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Post by profitius on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 11:05 am

NZ weaknesses? Usain Bolt is a slow starter but he more than makes up for it when he gets motoring. NZ is similar. They might have a few minor weaknesses here and there but once their attacking game gets going they are destroying everyone.


It's great to see. Ultimately skill is winning over physicality.
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Post by beshocked on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 11:07 am

I would say the next biggest thing that Eddie Jones needs to cross off his list is a win over SA. I know they aren't the benchmark but they've been a bogey team for England in the last few years.

England need to keep building up for NZ. I am glad we aren't playing NZ this year, gives England more time and builds up the anticipation. A heavyweight challenger needs to beat some of their other competitors before taking on the champions.

Want to see H.Mallinder growing as a player and claiming the 12 spot.

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Post by chris_501 on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 11:15 am

It's always been said that to beat the AB's you need to score tries, I do think this is true, but I don't think playing an unstructured game style is the way to go.

I don't see it as much of a weakness, but if there is a chink, it's going from set piece to set piece, winning those battles and then taking your scoring opportunities.

As we saw in the summer, and as Argentina did last weekend, the AB's go on hot streaks of 15-20 minutes that take the game away from teams. This is where I think Barrett has improved them, much like the Carter of 2005!

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Post by goneagain on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 11:37 am

Complete non-story and a cute bit of misdirection from the OP.

Jones was asked a question about the Lions tour and gave a pretty obvious and bland reply. I don't believe Jones made any mention of how he and England would look to beat NZ.

Every team has weaknesses (some of NZ's highlighted by the OP are fair) and the tactic of exposing the opposition's weaknesses while playing to your own strengths is so cliché that is meaningless.

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Post by Not grey and not a ghost on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 12:08 pm

It may be that Jones has had more than one interview. Here's the quote from the NZ Herald, I based my opening statement on:

"We want to be the No1 team in the world. New Zealand are head of the pack but they have flaws in their game. They're a bloody good side but they're beatable," Jones told the Guardian.

"You've got to take on their weaknesses ... and they've got significant weaknesses. I'm not going to share them with you now; in 2018 I will."


Clearly it's England he's talking about. Although it might be a misquote. It's taken from the guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/sep/13/england-coach-eddie-jones-tap-into-team-gb-knowledge), which may have taken it from another interview. I can't necessarily watch all BBC videos, due to living outside Europe.

Either way. The point was what weaknesses do you see NZ having.

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Post by goneagain on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 12:12 pm

Apologies OP, I assumed it was the BBC interview you were referencing.
In my opinion the only significant weakness is the goal kicking.

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Post by Not grey and not a ghost on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 12:14 pm

goneagain wrote:Apologies OP, I assumed it was the BBC interview you were referencing.

No problem. Henson's happy to admit the AB's aren't perfect either.

"Eddie's got to make sure we know he's out there, and in this case he's right, isn't he? We do have flaws, but every team has flaws. He's not being a rocket scientist saying that. The key thing is recognising that you have them and making sure that you work away quietly and fix them."

The question remains what are they?

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Post by Cyril on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 12:27 pm

Not grey and not a ghost wrote:Henson's happy to admit the AB's aren't perfect either.
Orange Gav or Muppet Jim?

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Post by goneagain on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 12:30 pm

Still pretty much a fluff comment. As I said earlier all teams have weaknesses, even Hansen is trotting out the same beige lines about it.  The problem, as ever, is not just identifying them but being able to exploit them.
Jones' 'significant' is perhaps there to spice things up a bit, but if England are to knock NZ off the #1 spot then he and his team have to try to find parts of NZ's game to exploit. Fair enough too. His job is to instil belief and confidence in his team.
Is he perhaps jumping the gun by concentrating on NZ at all when he has to negotiate a whole year of fixtures before they meet?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 12:37 pm

Ah, yeah, more quotes elsewhere. We can discount the lineout if we trust what Jones is saying; which we probably can't!

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Post by Cyril on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 12:38 pm

goneagain wrote:Is he perhaps jumping the gun by concentrating on NZ at all when he has to negotiate a whole year of fixtures before they meet?
Even the article states it's a long-term aim. Jones isn't concentrating on NZ, he's looking to make England the number 1 side.

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Post by goneagain on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 12:50 pm

True, that's why I mentioned that it was part of his bigger-picture aim of being #1, but he did single out NZ (who may not be #1 when they meet). Maybe 'concentrating' was too strong a word. Is it 2017 or 2018 when they next play?
His last line in the Guardian article says he'll let the cat out of the bag in 2018.

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Post by Cyril on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 12:58 pm

goneagain wrote:True, that's why I mentioned that it was part of his bigger-picture aim of being #1, but he did single out NZ (who may not be #1 when they meet). Maybe 'concentrating' was too strong a word. Is it 2017 or 2018 when they next play?
His last line in the Guardian article says he'll let the cat out of the bag in 2018.
The problem with these articles is you rarely see the question posed by the jounrnalist or the whole interview.

Anyway, this article is mostly about harnessing winning coaching methods eg Team GB.

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Post by Pot Hale on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 1:00 pm

New Zealand rugby's biggest weakness?

Well that's enough about us, tell us what you think about us.

(don't hold back, no need to be shy - we can handle lots of butt licking.)

Smile
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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 1:06 pm

Haha

But it's Jones that really really likes talking about the ABs

Can't shut the guy up
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 1:09 pm

So what's your thought on NZs weaknesses then ebop?

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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 1:11 pm

Goal kicking Wink

Let's leave it at that

Don't really want to give Jones any ideas
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 1:13 pm

I think you're a bit obsessed with Jones.

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Post by ebop on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 1:19 pm

Come now 7.5, don't be silly. But I have to admit, an Aussie coaching England is an irresistible combination.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 1:20 pm

It's true there are plenty more NZders talking about England these days.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 1:26 pm

beshocked wrote:I would say the next biggest thing that Eddie Jones needs to cross off his list is a win over SA. I know they aren't the benchmark but they've been a bogey team for England in the last few years.

England need to keep building up for NZ. I am glad we aren't playing NZ this year, gives England more time and builds up the anticipation. A heavyweight challenger needs to beat some of their other competitors before taking on the champions.

Want to see H.Mallinder growing as a player and claiming the 12 spot.

Totally agree with you Beshocked.... we have to try to get a result against them.

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Post by Pot Hale on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 1:28 pm

ebop wrote:Haha

But it's Jones that really really likes talking about the ABs

Can't shut the guy up

Yes it's extraordinary the reaction he creates amongst NZ fans and media - they can't stop talking about him.

When they're not talking about themselves obviously.....



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