NZ weaknesses

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Post by Not grey and not a ghost on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 4:10 am

First topic message reminder :

Eddie Jones has said he will focus on the All Black's weaknesses. He hasn't outlined what they are. So lets take some educated guesses.

Here are mine (bear in mind I'm a Kiwi).

1. Poor goal kicking. The current kickers are languishing well below 80%. The AB's current run is based on stopping others coring tries whislt scoring a bucket load. Control possession and field position and you're in with a charge.

2. Lack of a drop kick specialist (see above)

3. Defence of the driving maul. The driving maul isn't big in NZ. It's a potential weakness in the AB's half (penalties), especially inside their 22 (tries).

4. Commitment of small numbers to the breakdown. NZ tean to D up if they think the ruck is unwinable. Numbers to the breakdown could equal a monopoly on possession.

5. Weak defence behind the breakdown. NZ tends to fan out the are vulnerable to a pick and go, if executed well with pace and power.

6. NZ lack genuine pace outwide.

7. A focus on fitness, means they can be vulnerable to a power gane early on. Get point and aspply pressure and see what happens.

Any thoughts.

5.

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Post by goneagain on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 1:43 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Yes it's extraordinary the reaction he creates amongst NZ fans and media - they can't stop talking about him.

That's not really true though is it? However, I'll try to add my perspective to this. Please don't brand me as arrogant, but this has been on my mind for a while.
NZ are too good and I'm sick of it! Allow me to explain.
Every supporter wants to beat the opposition, all opposition, win the cup, the trophy, the championship. Especially if it entails beating the odds, giving the big boys a bloody nose and overcoming adversity. It feels so much sweeter as a fan.
As an ABs fan I think I am missing out on a lot of the enjoyment of being a watcher of my team in international rugby. I honestly can't remember the last time I watched a test thinking we might not win this at kick off time. Sure there is apprehension and a bit of doubt from time to time during some matches, but I always believe that the ABs will get up at the end of 80 minutes.
I want to enjoy the thrill of winning a game that I thought we would lose , Ireland 2013 is the biggest buzz I've had watching rugby in years. Nothing has come close since.

Perhaps NZers see EJ's England as a real threat on the horizon, I do and it excites me. I just wish other teams could raise their standards too.

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Post by yappysnap on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 1:46 pm

A total guess here but i'd question how good their defence is out on the wings. Savea must be pretty slow if turned and perhaps can be put under a lot of pressure with good kicks.

Only other weakness could be be in the backrow if a team could get enough power and pace on the ball, they're not the biggest and usually tackle in pairs/threes so gaps could open up. Again though it's how you create that scenario...


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Post by Pot Hale on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 2:15 pm

goneagain wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Yes it's extraordinary the reaction he creates amongst NZ fans and media - they can't stop talking about him.

That's not really true though is it? However, I'll try to add my perspective to this. Please don't brand me as arrogant, but this has been on my mind for a while.
NZ are too good and I'm sick of it! Allow me to explain.
Every supporter wants to beat the opposition, all opposition, win the cup, the trophy, the championship. Especially if it entails beating the odds, giving the big boys a bloody nose and overcoming adversity. It feels so much sweeter as a fan.
As an ABs fan I think I am missing out on a lot of the enjoyment of being a watcher of my team in international rugby. I honestly can't remember the last time I watched a test thinking we might not win this at kick off time. Sure there is apprehension and a bit of doubt from time to time during some matches, but I always believe that the ABs will get up at the end of 80 minutes.
I want to enjoy the thrill of winning a game that I thought we would lose , Ireland 2013 is the biggest buzz I've had watching rugby in years. Nothing has come close since.

Perhaps NZers see EJ's England as a real threat on the horizon, I do and it excites me. I just wish other teams could raise their standards too.

I'm sure a big wave of sympathy for your plight as a New Zealand fan will come your way very soon from all of us here......

Give it a few minutes.
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Post by TrailApe on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 2:26 pm

I'm sure a big wave of sympathy for your plight as a New Zealand fan will come your way very soon from all of us here......

Give it a few minutes

Is it there yet?

You might have missed it.

It might not be that noticeable....
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Post by Pot Hale on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 2:33 pm

TrailApe wrote:
I'm sure a big wave of sympathy for your plight as a New Zealand fan will come your way very soon from all of us here......

Give it a few minutes

Is it there yet?

You might have missed it.

It might not be that noticeable....

Just wait a few minutes more.... patience TA.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 2:40 pm

Ha, it is bizarre but I have a friend whos a Man U fan and he seemed to experience less of a high with the wins than me as a Boro fan. More used to it/took it as almost a right. Took defeats mcuh harder as well. It would be stretching it to say I felt pity!

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Post by goneagain on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 2:47 pm

You unfeeling brutes! furious

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Post by TrailApe on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 2:52 pm

wins than me as a Boro fan

at least you lot are in the bloody first division (or whatever they call it nowadays...)
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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 3:54 pm

goneagain wrote:That's not really true though is it? However, I'll try to add my perspective to this. Please don't brand me as arrogant, but this has been on my mind for a while.
NZ are too good and I'm sick of it! Allow me to explain.
Every supporter wants to beat the opposition, all opposition, win the cup, the trophy, the championship. Especially if it entails beating the odds, giving the big boys a bloody nose and overcoming adversity. It feels so much sweeter as a fan.
As an ABs fan I think I am missing out on a lot of the enjoyment of being a watcher of my team in international rugby. I honestly can't remember the last time I watched a test thinking we might not win this at kick off time. Sure there is apprehension and a bit of doubt from time to time during some matches, but I always believe that the ABs will get up at the end of 80 minutes.
I want to enjoy the thrill of winning a game that I thought we would lose , Ireland 2013 is the biggest buzz I've had watching rugby in years. Nothing has come close since.
As an England fan, I expected to win every match when we were on a roll under Woodward. Not in the Boks or Australian sense of feeling historically entitled to a fair share, but in the NZ sense of feeling we were just Much Better.

Still, we managed to screw up along the way in one match each year from 1999 to 2002. However, in that run to the 2003 World Cup victory and beyond we lost only one out of 25 matches. The one loss was when we agreed to play a second-string team against a France first team (this was before there were World Rankings). Consequently. England supporters of that era know how NZers feel now.

If I was NZ supporter, I would watch each game expecting my side to win, and look forward to seeing them break the record for the longest uninterrupted sequence of Test victories. Then I'd remember that it's a hard challenge, and take nothing for granted. I always expected England to win, but it was never impossible to imagine how someone might beat us.

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Post by emack2 on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 9:22 pm

All teams have weaknesses that can be exploited it`s the way you win
games.
NZ on the points selected it is down to the team picked,they have a
squad of about 50.
32 of which could be genuine starters the rest wouldn't let the team
down.
Goalkicking is an area there working on and 3 rookies are established
kickers but would you start them v the Boks.
The rolling Maul they defend it as well or better than most,and score
many tries from close range line outs.
There defence is the best in the game,the back three are safe under
the high ball and great on the counter.
NZ use ALL players especially Locks to clean out the breakdown area.
NZ may not be the team in the game BUT they are great learners the
errors shown last week won`t be repeated.
SA will probably win in ellis Park on the Veldt after all the travelling.

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Post by kingraf on Thu 15 Sep 2016, 10:11 pm

I'd give us a chance against NZ at Ellis Park on the High veld. Good thing then that the game is at King's Park in Durban at sea level instead
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 8:08 am

Ha, NZ are a bit like Mr T. Their only weakness is planes.

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 8:33 am


I'm far more concerned about how the ABs go against the Springboks in 24 hours time than worrying about England, that doesn't mean that I dont respect England.

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Post by ebop on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 8:49 am

England deserves respect with Jones in charge

Without doubt
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Post by Pot Hale on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 2:59 pm

Oh - I thought New Zealand respected all teams, all opposition.....

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Post by goneagain on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 3:01 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Oh - I thought New Zealand respected all teams, all opposition.....


Indeed, whether they deserve it or not.

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Post by fa0019 on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 3:47 pm

If your weakest strength is 8/10... is it still a weakness?

Place kicking aside is there anything in the entire game which they are not amongst the top3 in i.e. scrums, lineouts, rucking etc

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 4:28 pm

fa0019 wrote:If your weakest strength is 8/10... is it still a weakness?

Place kicking aside is there anything in the entire game which they are not amongst the top3 in i.e. scrums, lineouts, rucking etc


Actually there is one thing that a number of teams do much better than the ABs, and I'm surprised no-one not even Eddie has mentioned it.

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Post by fa0019 on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 4:30 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
fa0019 wrote:If your weakest strength is 8/10... is it still a weakness?

Place kicking aside is there anything in the entire game which they are not amongst the top3 in i.e. scrums, lineouts, rucking etc


Actually there is one thing that a number of teams do much better than the ABs, and I'm surprised no-one not even Eddie has mentioned it.

lose, whine, choke?

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Post by Exiledinborders on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 4:58 pm

fa0019 wrote:If your weakest strength is 8/10... is it still a weakness?

Place kicking aside is there anything in the entire game which they are not amongst the top3 in i.e. scrums, lineouts, rucking etc
Possibly mauling.

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Post by fa0019 on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 5:00 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
fa0019 wrote:If your weakest strength is 8/10... is it still a weakness?

Place kicking aside is there anything in the entire game which they are not amongst the top3 in i.e. scrums, lineouts, rucking etc
Possibly mauling.

Probably not great at chasing down an oppositions lead either. I haven't seen them do that in years.

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Post by Pot Hale on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 6:06 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
fa0019 wrote:If your weakest strength is 8/10... is it still a weakness?

Place kicking aside is there anything in the entire game which they are not amongst the top3 in i.e. scrums, lineouts, rucking etc


Actually there is one thing that a number of teams do much better than the ABs, and I'm surprised no-one not even Eddie has mentioned it.


....?


Last edited by Pot Hale on Sat 17 Sep 2016, 2:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Poorfour on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 7:38 pm

I haven't seen all that much of the RC this year but based on watching a couple of games I would say that the NZ scrum looked surprisingly vulnerable. Not awful, but I think the current England pack could attack their scrum, win a few pens and slow down the ball.

I also wonder if the Haskell clear out could cause some problems. Australia were trying to out ruck them, but given the they don't like to commit too many bodies a fast powerful back row could give them trouble.

Over the summer, Wales showed that a strong, physical team could hold them for much of the game but couldn't make it count in the last 20. As I've said elsewhere, I think England's bench under Eddie is geared towards forcing teams to adapt late in the game, and could present a bigger challenge than they have faced in some time.

Given the weakness in goalkicking at the moment, a team who can hold discipline, pressure the settlement and the breakdown and kick the points could put themselves in a position to win if they can match intensity in the last 20.

I think it is possible that a Lions side based around a predominantly English pack and Gustard's defensive system could do that. Much easier said than done, though.
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Post by ebop on Sat 17 Sep 2016, 1:52 am

The ABs can be slow starters in games. I think a theory was that it was the fault of the haka and that players were too amped up and made silly early errors. Not sure if that was true. I think the ABs have learnt through our guru sports psychologist how to control these emotions better.

But the ABs still often fall behind early. I wonder if the slow start is a way of letting opposing teams play all their cards early, which allows the ABs to figure out an appropriate game plan 'on the fly' for the mid-later stages of games to blow past them. Wonder if a way to upset the ABs rhythm would be to go in with 3 game plans/styles and flip between them. Just as the ABs suss it out, flip the switch to something totally different. They'd have to play the full 80 though.

The best thing to ever happen to the ABs in the modern era was losing to France in 2007 RWC as it resulted in a total shift in thinking regarding 'in game' flexibility, player ownership and problem solving (amongst many others). Thanks Wayne Barnes Wink But I think teams can challenge the ABs more in this regard.
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Post by ebop on Sat 17 Sep 2016, 2:40 am

Pot Hale wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
fa0019 wrote:If your weakest strength is 8/10... is it still a weakness?

Place kicking aside is there anything in the entire game which they are not amongst the top3 in i.e. scrums, lineouts, rucking etc


Actually there is one thing that a number of teams do much better than the ABs, and I'm surprised no-one not even Eddie has mentioned it.


....?

Shame you deleted that list

It was a very good list
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Post by Breadvan on Sat 17 Sep 2016, 6:46 am

NZ Weaknesses?

Steinlager
Busty maori women
Peter Jackson films
er.......
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Post by kingraf on Sat 17 Sep 2016, 10:37 am

this is a proper quality side. we didn't play awfully, and we'd have been in with a chance against most teams on that performance, but they just blew us out of the water. Greatest side I've ever seen. Barrett is probably playing better with the ball than Carter ever managed. I'm gonna go cry now
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Post by emack2 on Sun 18 Sep 2016, 3:33 pm

This weekend 3 of the top 4 sides in the world played test matches.SA
didn't play badly but were hammered by NZ.
Keep with them for 50/60mins then the customary NZ blitz,they have
weaknesses but fewer than most.
Australia are beginning to get it together come AI`s may be a threat too.
Argentina are a bit naïve,and lack depth of players when they get it together
watch out.
Eddie Jones has stated recently about Englands weaknesses,poor defence
first and third tests v Aus,poor Lineout in second test.
He could have added poor scrum by both sides in First two tests not
one was completed properly.
Indifferent tactical kicking,poor try scoring ability i.e NOT creating them
but living on mistakes/pressure to score.
He knows despite a very praiseworthy well earned series win it could
have been 1-2 or even 0-3 with better Oz game management.
He told some players he wasn't satisfied by there performances and
he`s looking to improve.
He `s not taking the AI`s or 6Ns for granted especially Wales/Ireland
away.
EVERY team loses matches sometimes Durban and Third Bledisloe
are potential banana skins for NZ.

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Post by Cyril on Mon 19 Sep 2016, 11:07 am

I wonder whether a potential NZ weakness is how (relatively) weak the opposition in the Rugby Championship is this season. Smashing sides week-in week-out might leave them a bit under-cooked if it continues for a few years. NZ are used to having some serious tests against at least one of their opponents in the SH.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon 19 Sep 2016, 11:14 am

Cyril wrote:I wonder whether a potential NZ weakness is how (relatively) weak the opposition in the Rugby Championship is this season. Smashing sides week-in week-out might leave them a bit under-cooked if it continues for a few years. NZ are used to having some serious tests against at least one of their opponents in the SH.

Who else is there? England.. they're not facing them until at least this time next year.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 19 Sep 2016, 11:29 am

Only Ireland this year, twice.

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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 19 Sep 2016, 11:35 am

That should stand the IRFU players in good stead RE: Lions selection.
A good performance against the Kiwi's will go a lot further than playing against other touring nations.


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Post by fa0019 on Mon 19 Sep 2016, 11:55 am

This year NZ have played 7 matches. Scored 40 tries, conceded 8. The average score in the 7 matches is 41-14. The lowest number of points they have scored in a game is 29 and the smallest margin has been 14.

It would be a miracle for Ireland to get within a score to be honest. I would say their is greater downside to playing NZ at the moment that the upside.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 19 Sep 2016, 11:59 am

Ireland, wales and England are still pretty close in terms of quality of their first teams. More than capable of giving NZ a fright as proved in the previous few years.

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Post by Cyril on Mon 19 Sep 2016, 1:01 pm

fa0019 wrote:
Cyril wrote:I wonder whether a potential NZ weakness is how (relatively) weak the opposition in the Rugby Championship is this season. Smashing sides week-in week-out might leave them a bit under-cooked if it continues for a few years. NZ are used to having some serious tests against at least one of their opponents in the SH.

Who else is there? England.. they're not facing them until at least this time next year.
Exactly. NZ has yet another pointless Bledisloe Cup games against the Aussies and then that circus of a game against Ireland in the US (where, so doubt, the Chicago River will run green). Then their second string will tear Italy and new one, followed by (hopefully) a couple of sterner tests against Ireland and France.

It's a shame England don't have NZ this autumn, but we do need to show SA and Aus they're down the pecking order these days.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon 19 Sep 2016, 1:06 pm

Cyril wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Cyril wrote:I wonder whether a potential NZ weakness is how (relatively) weak the opposition in the Rugby Championship is this season. Smashing sides week-in week-out might leave them a bit under-cooked if it continues for a few years. NZ are used to having some serious tests against at least one of their opponents in the SH.

Who else is there? England.. they're not facing them until at least this time next year.
Exactly. NZ has yet another pointless Bledisloe Cup games against the Aussies and then that circus of a game against Ireland in the US (where, so doubt, the Chicago River will run green). Then their second string will tear Italy and new one, followed by (hopefully) a couple of sterner tests against Ireland and France.

It's a shame England don't have NZ this autumn, but we do need to show SA and Aus they're down the pecking order these days.

Like boxing.... sometimes there is a wrong time to face a certain team and I think this is it. I don't think it harms England at all not facing NZ at the moment. As much as it is a good gauge to where they are... they're not that good that a bad loss may not cause serious issues in their confidence and have a negative impact on future play.

They still have to get the boks "monkey" off their backs (10 years and a similar number of losses if I recall) and get some wins over them before getting ready for the rivalry which I think will dominate the game for the next 5 years or so.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon 19 Sep 2016, 1:07 pm

I would say this however... however bad the boks are at the moment they have the capability to turn it completely around.

1 or 2 major changes can make them very competitive once more. Not sure if Coetzee will do so but there are a few players on the radar which can alter things significantly.

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Post by Cyril on Mon 19 Sep 2016, 1:13 pm

Yep, the Boks will be an immense test as always. England really, really need a win against them to keep momentum.

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Post by LordDowlais on Mon 19 Sep 2016, 1:25 pm

After watching the games this weekend, and previously, I think I was pretty harsh on Wales and their performances out in New Zealand. Out of all the teams to play there, so far, I think Wales have given New Zealand the most problems.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon 19 Sep 2016, 1:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:After watching the games this weekend, and previously, I think I was pretty harsh on Wales and their performances out in New Zealand. Out of all the teams to play there, so far, I think Wales have given New Zealand the most problems.

To be fair to others.. had Wales faced a fully oiled NZ team I think they would have got a bit more of a bashing (as in NZ hadn't played a test until they faced Wales). Outside of Argentina up to 50 mins who I think had them within 2 points... you're right though.

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Post by Pot Hale on Tue 20 Sep 2016, 12:01 pm

Despite all the general complaints about too many test matches globally, I was wondering if the long season last year actually benefited England - and Ireland to some degree - in their victories in Aus and SA last June. Normally it's a case of NH teams being flogged and exhausted but did it partly help this time round to have played so many tests in the one season?
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Post by propdavid_london on Tue 20 Sep 2016, 1:09 pm

There was definite player burnout in the 3rd test and following the tour of Oz.

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Post by beshocked on Tue 20 Sep 2016, 3:04 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Despite all the general complaints about too many test matches globally, I was wondering if the long season last year actually benefited England - and Ireland to some degree -  in their victories in Aus and SA last June.   Normally it's a case of NH teams being flogged and exhausted but did it partly help this time round to have played so many tests in the one season?  

I think it simply helps motivate a team when you keep on winning. NZ know all about that but this year so have England.
England went to Australia not just on the back of a successful 6 nations but also a strong club season in Europe for English clubs.

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Post by GunsGerms on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 1:23 pm

I think NZ's weakness is that they can be slow starters. A lot of their recent games have been close or they have been marginally behind at half time.

They then proceed to absolutely blow teams away in the second half. They seem to always start the second half in another gear.

Maybe the Lions need to prepare to literally have two test teams so that their subs can come on and raise the intensity in the second half.


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NZ weaknesses - Page 2 Empty Re: NZ weaknesses

Post by goneagain on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 3:10 pm

Was thinking something similar myself. Added up the points.
First half NZ outscored opposition 129 - 65, second half 161 - 26.


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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 3:27 pm

Women and Booze.
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Post by aucklandlaurie on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 4:25 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Women and Booze.

Whats wrong with our Booze?

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Post by Cyril on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 4:26 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Women and Booze.

Whats wrong with our Booze?
It makes you beat up your women?

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 4:58 pm

Cyril wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Women and Booze.

Whats wrong with our Booze?
It makes you beat up your women?

If you saw some of our women you'd undestand why our booze is in such high demand.

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