When the bubble bursts

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Post by emack2 on Sun 25 Sep 2016, 12:45 pm

Since 1905/6 the two best sides in the World were SA and NZ,until the
1930`s.When the NZ Scrum was outlawed and until they were given
the secrets of the Bok Scrum courtesy of Danie Craven.[In 1949]
After that NZ caught up and gradually overtook the Boks.
SA sadly has always been bedevilled by politics it still is.
BUT all dynasties end in the 1970`s World Rugby was
briefly dominated by Wales,France,the Lions.
I read with interest the Media comments Steve Hansen was
rubbished for his Wales period.
BUT he understood team building was more important than
short time match results.
Others thought differently BUT his spadework lead to 3 GRANDSLAMS
in 5years.
After 2011 Stuart Lancaster was given the job of rebuilding Englands
fortunes.He built a side that equalled SCWS results v NH sides 4
losses in 4 years.
6Ns were for 4 years decided on points difference effectively a shared
result.
As a Parallel Scotland in 1920`s won or shared the Home Nations titles
nearl y every year.
Predictably after the RWC result he was dumped,EJ with basicly his
team is on a roll.The Media love it BUT there is little between England
Wales,and Ireland.
NZ are being accussed of boring turgid Rugby because they score 6
or 8 tries.The teams concerned weren't trying.
NOT that you`d know it if you read the Telegraph or Independent no
coverage at all.
SA,Argentina,and Australia are all improving when teams like England
and NZ start losing,and they will.
The Media will be looking for scapegoats,your only as good as your
last game.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sun 25 Sep 2016, 1:27 pm

What's your point?

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 25 Sep 2016, 2:29 pm

What bubble is it you are on about. that is about to burst.

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Post by profitius on Sun 25 Sep 2016, 2:38 pm

I don't think the NZ bubble will burst for a while yet!


But the OP did raise some good points and one in particular. Eddie Jones' timing in taking over England couldn't have been better. Lancaster did all the groundwork for EJ to put on the finishing touches.
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Post by emack2 on Sun 25 Sep 2016, 3:04 pm

My point is I`ve been an AB,England,Scotland fan for 63 years,NZ being my
first choice since 1953-4 despite being an Anglo-Scot.
I remember the AB`s in the 1970`s,1991,1998,2009,the jibes of 4 more
years,no RWC or 25 years despite being the best between them etc.
That several times AB have been closing in on record number of wins
by a tier I side etc.only to see it fade usually to the pointless Third Bledisloe
fixture.
Read your media England have a vein of talent from winning Junior RWC
winners.TRUE as if the losing sides don`t have talent there too.
England all they have to do is turn up and it`s a won game Itoje/Kruis
are lineout kings etc.
NZ don`t underestimate anyone and the conveyor belt still flows BUT
only a fool dimisses the opposition before a ball is kicked.

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Post by lostinwales on Sun 25 Sep 2016, 3:36 pm

emack2 wrote:My point is I`ve been an AB,England,Scotland fan for 63 years,NZ being my
first choice since 1953-4 despite being an Anglo-Scot.
I remember the AB`s in the 1970`s,1991,1998,2009,the jibes of 4 more
years,no  RWC or 25 years despite being the best between them etc.
That several times AB have been closing in on record number of wins
by a tier I side etc.only to see it fade usually to the pointless Third Bledisloe
fixture.
Read your media England have a vein of talent from winning Junior RWC
winners.TRUE as if the losing sides don`t have talent there too.
England all they have to do is turn up and it`s a won game Itoje/Kruis
are lineout kings etc.
NZ don`t underestimate anyone and the conveyor belt still flows BUT
only a fool dimisses the opposition before a ball is kicked.

Sorry - respect to elders and all that but what a load of rubbish. The media is the way it always is and I am sure NZ newspapers are the same or worse.

For the rest of us fans who actually care this is the best looking England team since the one that was for a short time, you know, actually the best in the world. This doesn't mean we are the best in the world (because we all know who is), and its also happened at a time when SA and Australia seem to be on a downward trend and Argentina, although on an upward trend, are still lagging. Wales are on a downward trend. They'll have their days but for a while these will be more isolated. Ireland are strong but I still think there is a gap.

This all leaves us firmly in 2nd place in the rankings with no idea if we'll ever get to no.1. But we are now the top ranked challenger and we can hope. We also, finally, have a decent conveyor belt of talent, we have some exceptional players (and yes that does mean Itoje) and we have a smart coach. Its only the wrong kind of newspapers that think that all we have to do is turn up.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 25 Sep 2016, 7:22 pm

I cannot remember any game that England have gone in to and thought all they have to do is turn up, and they have won. Even when England play Italy in the 6ns. who England ( have never lost too) England all ways give them respect. that they deserve.

And never take them for granted.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Sun 25 Sep 2016, 7:50 pm

emack2 wrote:My point is I`ve been an AB,England,Scotland fan for 63 years,NZ being my
first choice since 1953-4 despite being an Anglo-Scot.
I remember the AB`s in the 1970`s,1991,1998,2009,the jibes of 4 more
years,no  RWC or 25 years despite being the best between them etc.
That several times AB have been closing in on record number of wins
by a tier I side etc.only to see it fade usually to the pointless Third Bledisloe
fixture.
Read your media England have a vein of talent from winning Junior RWC
winners.TRUE as if the losing sides don`t have talent there too.
England all they have to do is turn up and it`s a won game Itoje/Kruis
are lineout kings etc.
NZ don`t underestimate anyone and the conveyor belt still flows BUT
only a fool dimisses the opposition before a ball is kicked.
The last few junior world cups do indicate England have a very good flow of talent. That does not mean it will automatically translate into senior success but it is a good starting point.

I do not know who you think believes that England just have to turn up. Certainly not the England management or team and I suggest not many fans.

England are currently the second best international team. They might move on to become the best. They might slip back and fall behind other teams. Who knows? That is the magic of rugby.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 25 Sep 2016, 9:10 pm

Still makes me chuckle whem a mate from Boro tells me they chose to support Man U.

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Post by sad_gimp on Sun 25 Sep 2016, 9:31 pm

Was there a point to this post? I sense some WUM-ing but it's hard to make sense of it.

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Post by aucklandlaurie on Sun 25 Sep 2016, 9:58 pm

sad_gimp wrote:Was there a point to this post? I sense some WUM-ing but it's hard to make sense of it.

Just because one doesn't understand something it doesn't necessarily follow that its a WUM, so Let me help.

the answer lies in the top line and the bottom line.

When the bubble bursts you're still only as good as you're last game.

In an ideal World every team improves from one season to the next, from one week to the next, from one game to the next. but along comes reality and there are very few teams that can manage all the disruptive unhelpful variables, and even then only for a limited period of time.

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Post by emack2 on Sun 25 Sep 2016, 10:29 pm

Load of Rubbish?I don`t do WUM`s the history of England/Wales is just
1 or 2 matches between the same with championships shared.
7 and one half try a different tune this one is a stuck record Broken Record Broken Record Doh Doh
England are Number 2 on merit no one disputes it BUT it was
a close run thing as Eddie Jones knows and has commented on.
The media that hyped up Englands RWC chances purely because
they were the Home side.Got Martin Johnson as England Coach
although he had no qualifications of any kind.
Talked up slamming Sam Burgess a League Prop played as
loose forward at Club level so they make him a centre!!
Wales made a reasonable fist against NZ but couldn't
do it for the full game.
Invincibility is a myth SCW `s England was Great BUT in
2000-3 both NZ and SA were by there standards weak
Australia were in there best period 1999-2002 EJ inherited
the best of it`s time in 2001,quit after an 8game losing run.
Cheika was 2015 Coach of the year,RWC finalist what happened
next,for 20minutes in the first test v England they nearly scored
three tries,good ones.
The Premiership is a League of 12 teams some being in enormous
wealth.It is of great quality but can you honestly say all 12 sides
are of the same standard,truth is it`s about 6 in any given year.
THAT applies to EVERY League in all TIER 1 countries,ANY game
is between 2 sides and anything can happen.
NZ media is as good/bad as any but you read everything with a pinch
of salt.Just like reading the Tele graph or Western Mail laughing laughing laughing

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 8:02 am

What do you mean emack? Simply a point that I find people from Middlesbrough supporting a team from Manchester strange; let alone one from England supporting NZ because they're better! But don't let me stop your crusade in justifying it.

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Post by englandglory4ever on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 9:26 am

Oh that old MU supporter phenomenon! I live in outer Mongolia and herd goats so I support MU. Yeah right.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 10:17 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
sad_gimp wrote:Was there a point to this post? I sense some WUM-ing but it's hard to make sense of it.

Just because one doesn't understand something it doesn't necessarily follow that its a WUM, so Let me help.

the answer lies in the top line and the bottom line.

When the bubble bursts you're still only as good as you're last game.

In an ideal World every team improves from one season to the next, from one week to the next, from one game to the next. but along comes reality and there are very few teams that can manage all the disruptive unhelpful variables, and even then only for a limited period of time.

Thank you for such a clear statement. Makes me wonder more what the point of the original post was.

England's rise (however slight some would like to think it) has been coupled with a fall in form for most of the closest opposition apart from no.1. Of course that also seems to have been the main argument of you know who when England won the RWC, and no doubt it will be the same any time England manage to string a few wins together against the SH teams.

edit: - now read through Emack's last post. I wrote the above before doing so. Glad to know that SCW was lucky for a couple of years just as EJ was in Australia.

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Post by Cyril on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 10:27 am

lostinwales wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
sad_gimp wrote:Was there a point to this post? I sense some WUM-ing but it's hard to make sense of it.

Just because one doesn't understand something it doesn't necessarily follow that its a WUM, so Let me help.

the answer lies in the top line and the bottom line.

When the bubble bursts you're still only as good as you're last game.

In an ideal World every team improves from one season to the next, from one week to the next, from one game to the next. but along comes reality and there are very few teams that can manage all the disruptive unhelpful variables, and even then only for a limited period of time.

Thank you for such a clear statement. Makes me wonder more what the point of the original post was.

England's rise (however slight some would like to think it) has been coupled with a fall in form for most of the closest opposition apart from no.1. Of course that also seems to have been the main argument of you know who when England won the RWC, and no doubt it will be the same any time England manage to string a few wins together against the SH teams.

edit: - now read through Emack's last post. I wrote the above before doing so. Glad to know that SCW was lucky for a couple of years just as EJ was in Australia.
Aye, we just need to wait for NZ's 'luck' to run out now...

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Post by emack2 on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 10:40 am

No you don`t whenever I post you try this or comments about my prose style. picard Doh Doh Doh
Try sensible discussion instead,you are an England fan,and a[I think]
Club first philosphy laughing laughing laughing
I had a friend when working was an Arsenal fan,he went on about there
[their,they`re ] Whistle Whistle Whistle Whistle
unbeaten season .
Tasked with the comments how many English qualified players.SILENCE
Once I was a keen Soccer fan too,I lost interest when Chelsea et al adopted
the Real Madrid/Inter Milan pattern.
I was interested in England etc club rugby until they started to do the
same. furious furious furious
When I was introduced to AB`s and adopted them,Wales,France,and SA
had the indian sign on them.
With the return of Pat Lambie and Willie Le Roux with there current pack
they should improve,by how much is the thing?
Australia have fixed there lineout problem,with Hodge and Haylen-petty
they`ve discovered good young backs.
Pocock`s injury means they have a normal number 8 ,the 9,10,12 is
working for them,Goalkicking fixed too.
As an AB fan maybe losses in Durban,at Eden Park unlikely but will be
much closer.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 10:44 am

It's their in that sentence emack.Are you saying your mate didn't know his team? Bit of a plastic glory hunter, from Devon?

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Post by munkian on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 10:56 am

majesticimperialman wrote:I cannot remember any game that England have gone in to and thought all they have to do is turn up, and they have won. Even when England play Italy in the 6ns. who England ( have never lost too) England all ways give them respect. that they deserve.

And never take them for granted.

Apart from in 2013, when they didn't and were nearly embarrassed then did the same against Wales and lost the 6 nations.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 10:57 am

I disagree with that munkian and think you're being harsh on Wales. They were very good that day and it's silly to say they only did that due to England taking tehm for granted.

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Post by munkian on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:00 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I disagree with that munkian and think you're being harsh on Wales. They were very good that day and it's silly to say they only did that due to England taking tehm for granted.

I didn't say that, you did Rolling Eyes
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:05 am

You literally just said England took them lightly?

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Post by munkian on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:08 am

I was contradicting Maj saying England have always respected Italy.

Wales played well but the way the pundits were talking and the way the players looked like rabbits in the headlights seemed like they just thought they just needed to turn up.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:12 am

Think a few things have gone wrong but I don't personally think it's down to players thinking they need to just turn up, but a few good/great performances by others, but fair enough if you feel that.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:31 am

emack2 wrote:picard Doh Doh Doh
Try sensible discussion instead laughing laughing laughing Whistle  Whistle  Whistle  Whistle
Hard to take an appeal for sensible discussion seriously when it's surrounded by all those emoticons.

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Post by ebop on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:42 am

You're only as good as your last game

This current ABs team have amassed the highest number of ranking points in the history of the ranking system

What will it take to overtake them?

One loss, two losses?
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Post by emack2 on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:57 am

My point is these things go in cycles usually about 8 yearsEhgland had a golden era.Under Geoff Cooke,Jack Rowell,and SCW.
SCW inherited a lot of Rowells players,be that as it may 1997-2004 his record
v NZ was P 9 W2 DI L6[we won`t mention the 2005 Lions]V Aus P 10 W5 D1L4
V SA P10 W6L4,v France P 10 W6 L 4.
England beat NZ once every 10years on average,they have lost very few
AI matches,BUT that doesn't mean it can`t or won`t happen see 2012.
England are developing nicely and at home would fancy there chances
against ANYONE.
BUT taking it for granted will kill you the biggest joke for me was the
Media. NZ just won 2015 RWC.Taking bets they`ll make it 3 in a row
in 2019!!.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:59 am

And I'm sorry, but the 'I've been posting on forums since the days when you used actual paper and drawing pins' stuff does not actually demand extra respect.

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Post by ebop on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 12:08 pm

That's the goal emack2

(Then a fourth)

The only cycle I can see is some countries sacking their coaches and pegging their hopes on the next great thing

No succession planning

Just random ad hoc movement from one thing to the next in vain hope
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Post by emack2 on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 1:07 pm

I don`t expect respect for my age,I try to be objective my opinion based
on things I`ve seen,heard,or read.
It`s just an opinion mine is as valid as any here its not holy writ,i`ve a
vast library of somewhat dated knowledge,and photographic memory.
I hope that my comments to 7and a half,or Cyril for example is just
friendly banter it is in my case.
Try winding me up resort in kind but it`s not malicious as far as I`m concerned.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 1:19 pm

I'll challenge anyone if I don't agree or see bias.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 1:35 pm

I believe you are putting words and your own prejudices into people's mouths Mr Mackie. I am well aware of the issues that cause you to be unable to present your writing in a coherent manner, but reading the wall of text does give me a headache - so usually I have to not read anything you write.

As far as I can see you seem to believe that there is a belief in the UK press that the England rugby team are unbeatable - I have seen no evidence to support that.

You are critical of the UK press for spending more column inches on UK sports teams than overseas ones. Well of course they do. I do suspect they give more column inches to SA and NZ than their antipodean compatriots do to England and Wales though.

You seem to be critical of Lancaster stepping down from his job, denigrating Eddie Jones achievements. Now personally I do feel people were/are too quick to slate Lancaster. However he was a nearly man who finally lost his bottle. He did the job that was needed by England but perhaps was not the right character to take England to a higher level. His achievements are obvious when you see what the extra 5% provided by Jones has given to largely the same players.

Finally you seem to think UK press and fans (but mainly English) do not give the ABs the respect they deserve. I would love to see your evidence to suggest that they play boring rugby. Generally there is a consensus that the ABs 2008-16 are the best Rugby team ever, and quite possible the best sports team of all time. Sure having one team be quite so dominant can be deemed, by some, to be boring. That is not to denigrate the team, or accuse them of being boring. It is up to the other teams to raise their game.

I feel privileged to have seen this AB team (just as I felt privileged to see the best team England have ever managed to put out back in 2000-2003). The vast majority of fans and the press in the UK feel the same. Quite why you have felt the need to belittle the England team is beyond me.

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Post by emack2 on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 2:24 pm

WRONG!!! I don`t see anything in the press to suggest England are the
best in the World currently.
Nor do I expect reams and reams of coverage of SH teams in the NH media.
BUT teams like the Telegraph who until middle of last year had good coverage
and discussion pages of ALL teams.
Now doesn't even bother to post the results,don`t have access to Times,so
it`s Planet Rugby,theMail,Guardian,andMail plus NZ papers.
MY comments are based on the many opinions there,I read Telegraph
coverage of NH teams.
Some see my views as biased fine, tell it as seen by me NOT the often
home town commentaters.

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Post by BamBam on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 2:25 pm

My advice would be to read the websites and newspapers that cover the topics you want to read, and ignore the rest

Why do you care what a media outlet is not reporting on? I don't complain that the Times doesn't cover the village cricket results, why is it any different

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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 3:19 pm

Well, if we are moving to a discussion about how media outlets cover rugby, rather than talking about imaginary slights towards NZ rugby, then I'm all in favour.




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Post by aucklandlaurie on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 4:10 pm


Here you go RF. a breakdown of Kiwi players in the UK and France from last weekend games, theres more than enough of them!


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11716897

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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 4:39 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:Here you go RF. a breakdown of Kiwi players in the UK and France from last weekend games, theres more than enough of them!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11716897
It would be good to see more northern hemisphere players in Super Rugby but salaries and quotas conspire against it. In League, there are no such concerns, which is why players like the Burgess brothers and James Graham can happily make the journey.

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Post by rainbow-warrior on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 12:27 am

emack2 wrote:WRONG!!! I don`t see anything in the press to suggest England are the
best in the World currently.

Nor do I expect reams and reams of coverage of SH teams in the NH media.
BUT teams like the Telegraph who until middle of last year had good coverage
and discussion pages of ALL teams.
Now doesn't even bother to post the results,don`t have access to Times,so
it`s Planet Rugby,theMail,Guardian,andMail plus NZ papers.
MY comments are based on the many opinions there,I read Telegraph
coverage of NH teams.
Some see my views as biased fine, tell it as  seen by me NOT the often
home town commentaters.

Thank goodness for that Smile The All Blacks are a Royal Mile ahead of every other nation bar none and will be for the next 4 seasons. With 6 or so AB players retiring including Nonu, Carter, McCaw, Smith, most thought the NZ rebuild would take a wee while. Wales much to my disappointment failed as have all Championship teams after them. They have destroyed everyone in their path and none of the NH teams will get within 15 points of them. I doubt even the AB management expected this team to gel as quickly as they have and the strength in depth is astonishing and scary. The Lions will be pushed.

No bubble bursting here for several years.
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Post by emack2 on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 5:09 am

Reading the media when England meet NZ in 2018,they maybe the
most inexperienced team since 2009.
Aron Cruden,Owen Franks,Kieran Reid,Charlie Faumina,Sam Whitelock.
Matt Todd all out of contract post Lions2017.NH vultures circling if you
can`t beat them,buy them furious
Rumour mill is rife,for some of these 2 RWC`s,Bledisloes,RC`s maybe
80 or so caps.May well decide to take the money and run.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 10:43 am

Ah so a NZ weakness is an All Blacks love of money over the shirt; but still the fauklt of nh vultures boo hiss.

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Post by ebop on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 11:32 am

Oh the humanity
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Post by emack2 on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 1:14 pm

Typical post RWC fare,In 2003 AB`s lost a whole team,post 2007a whole squad
post 2011 it wasn't very bad.2015 players were asked to state there future.
Plans PRE 2015,hence Colin Slade was marginalised and Piatau rejected for
lack of loyalty.Todd Blackadder is currently raiding Crusaders for Bath it
seems.
Boudelais attitude was always why develop when you can buy ready made,
in Crudens case it maybe how AB`s see his future.
Hansen is pretty loyal to his squad,Cruden has had injuries at akward times
expect most of them will stay for better wages.
JUST like the England Squad members at Saracens,Leicester,Wasps etc
with there windfall from the RFU.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 1:17 pm

Nah players like Itoje would earn a heap more in France. Their by the way.

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Post by ebop on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 1:36 pm

Thing is

Players that take the money have checked out

Good luck to them
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 1:40 pm

Yup, just tongue in cheek responses to continued self flagellation.

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Post by ebop on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 1:48 pm

Ah yes, their will always be that

How much does a coffee cost these days

£2?
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 2:06 pm

There is. Depends; we get more than 1 type up here.

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Post by emack2 on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 9:19 pm

It`s fault NOT fauklt,oh pedantic one laughing

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Post by ebop on Sun 02 Oct 2016, 7:54 am

Good spotting emack2

Pick your game up 7.5
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 02 Oct 2016, 8:21 am

emack2 wrote:It`s fault NOT fauklt,oh pedantic one laughing

This is what I get for trying to teach the older generation their own language!

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