Dudley Phillips

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Dudley Phillips

Post by PhilBB on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 5:15 pm

First topic message reminder :

Dudley Phillips is employed by the IRFU as a "Participation Rugby Operations Officer". He used to be part of the Leinster Branch Rugby Referees: http://www.arlb.ie/?tag=dudley-philips

This weekend he is refereeing....... Leinster.

Now, I remember being told explicitly by Sin e that this kind of thing couldn't happen.

Dudley has never refereed Leinster before.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by wayne on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 2:52 pm

SecretFly wrote:What IS a 'Neutral' official though?

We'll get told that first things first is he 'must be seen' to be neutral.  So there is a raw 'definition' of sorts to begin with that everybody seems to give the lazy nod to.
I, however, always have a little smile at the elementary feel to that bland and evasive definition.  Adults aren't kids but they seem to be all too often prepared to pretend they are kids in order to win an argument or achieve a little moral victory in debate (yes, I don't exclude myself there Wink ).

So the generally held theory is that a Neutral official is a Welshman reffing or TMOing a game between Connacht and Treviso.  A neutral official is a Scottish man reffing or TMOing a game between Munster and Cardiff.

Okay, we all get that.  That's the 'must be seen to be' part that panders to the sparky fans that are always on the lookout for 'fairness'.

But to me, that's only elementary childish window dressing - and I think all of us adults know the truth.

The truth is that an official isn't 'neutral' if he's an Irishman reffing a game between Ospreys and Edinburgh.  He isn't neutral because he's reffing (or TMOing) though a competition - and he's aware of the League table.  He's all too aware of the League Table.  He's aware of the position of Ospreys on the table and what they'd like from the game, and he's aware of Edinburgh's position on the table and what result might suit them.  
But mostly, in theory and in practice, he's aware of where both sides are in relation to a few Irish teams that allegedly he wouldn't have a 'neutral' view on.  Now, if said ref is biased and ready to initiate bias, that referee can choose not to be 'neutral' in that supposedly 'neutral' game.  If he chooses to be unprofessional and act on bias, he has ample opportunity to try to orchestrate a result that might aid one of his favoured sides in terms of overall League table position.  The ref/TMO doesn't have to be involved in a game involving one of his favoured sides.  He can still very much influence the League table regardless of what games he officiates at on any given weekend.

Of course, in elementary/childish terms, nobody (fans or journalists) gets so cynical, or at least everybody pretends they don't.  So the reply is always: 'Let's keep it simple.  Let's not over complicate this.  Let's pretend that 'neutrality' is more easily defined.  Let's pretend that an Italian ref or TMO is always and forever going to be 'neutral' in a game against a Scottish and a Welsh side.  Let's believe the overly-simplified theory on neutrality in order to keep things handy in the debating chamber.'

But it's total crud - the truth is complex not simple, and these seasonal 'neutrality' debates and supposed solutions are laughable logic. Wink
Fly absolutely spot on, I didn't see it mentioned on here or on the Ospreys forum, and I really waited for it to be, in our first match of the season against Zebre, Sam Parry scored a hat trick of tries the second of which should have been disallowed because Sam Crawled up to and over the line being pushed by Daimitri Arhip, later on in the game Zebre had a rolling maul that was heading up to the line, 2 players Rory Thornton on one side and there was somebody on the other side coming in from the side and rolling round to the Zebre side and pulling 2 players out, after that we managed to stop the maul going forward. On the TV coverage which I watched the following day I could be seen clapping the stopping of the maul, I then realised Thornton and the other player should have had a penalty against them and probably a Yellow card issued, when the maul was stopped a scrum was awarded and Zebre went on to score a try.
NOBODY SAID A WORD because it was an Irish Ref and he was biased in our favour, Andrew Brace was his name, not a very good ref IMO but definitely NOT BIASED.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Griff on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 3:25 pm

SecretFly wrote:What IS a 'Neutral' official though?

We'll get told that first things first is he 'must be seen' to be neutral.  So there is a raw 'definition' of sorts to begin with that everybody seems to give the lazy nod to.
I, however, always have a little smile at the elementary feel to that bland and evasive definition.  Adults aren't kids but they seem to be all too often prepared to pretend they are kids in order to win an argument or achieve a little moral victory in debate (yes, I don't exclude myself there Wink ).

So the generally held theory is that a Neutral official is a Welshman reffing or TMOing a game between Connacht and Treviso.  A neutral official is a Scottish man reffing or TMOing a game between Munster and Cardiff.

Okay, we all get that.  That's the 'must be seen to be' part that panders to the sparky fans that are always on the lookout for 'fairness'.

But to me, that's only elementary childish window dressing - and I think all of us adults know the truth.

The truth is that an official isn't 'neutral' if he's an Irishman reffing a game between Ospreys and Edinburgh.  He isn't neutral because he's reffing (or TMOing) though a competition - and he's aware of the League table.  He's all too aware of the League Table.  He's aware of the position of Ospreys on the table and what they'd like from the game, and he's aware of Edinburgh's position on the table and what result might suit them.  
But mostly, in theory and in practice, he's aware of where both sides are in relation to a few Irish teams that allegedly he wouldn't have a 'neutral' view on.  Now, if said ref is biased and ready to initiate bias, that referee can choose not to be 'neutral' in that supposedly 'neutral' game.  If he chooses to be unprofessional and act on bias, he has ample opportunity to try to orchestrate a result that might aid one of his favoured sides in terms of overall League table position.  The ref/TMO doesn't have to be involved in a game involving one of his favoured sides.  He can still very much influence the League table regardless of what games he officiates at on any given weekend.

Of course, in elementary/childish terms, nobody (fans or journalists) gets so cynical, or at least everybody pretends they don't.  So the reply is always: 'Let's keep it simple.  Let's not over complicate this.  Let's pretend that 'neutrality' is more easily defined.  Let's pretend that an Italian ref or TMO is always and forever going to be 'neutral' in a game against a Scottish and a Welsh side.  Let's believe the overly-simplified theory on neutrality in order to keep things handy in the debating chamber.'

But it's total crud - the truth is complex not simple, and these seasonal 'neutrality' debates and supposed solutions are laughable logic. Wink


You're right here Fly. But I guess it's a bit like research. In research you always acknowledge that bias is present/inherent/unavoidable but do everything you can to limit it or remove as much bias as you can. If we acknowledge that bias is more likely to be in home officials then we remove them and replace then with 'more neutral' officials from another Pro 12 nation (like we're doing). If we're now saying that those are a bit biased still and might have vested interests in certain clubs or nations then perhaps we go a step further to eliminate more bias and bring in officials from the RFU or France? I've often wondered (usually during the debates about home officials, where the reason given for home officials is a lack of officials from other nations) why we don't share officials around a bit more? The experience of another league would be a good thing for them. And they're not a million miles away. An English ref would have less vested interest and therefore bias than a Pro12 ref.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 3:46 pm

Why are people getting caught up in nationalities ? I can only guess it is because they want to skew the argument in their own favour. I have said multiple times, I do not care where the ref comes from, I have also read that Phil has said he is quite happy to have an Irish ref to officiate his team against an Irish side.

What my concern is, that the officials are the same as the players, in the fact they are all under the same employment. If a Welshman was working as a referee and employed by the IRFU, I would still not be happy with him reffing against an IRFU team. You all know what I would like to see with regards to the officials in our league.

As for the TMO's, again, what has nationality got to do with it ? My concern is the fact that some games get them, some games do not. We should not accept this.

There are only one set of fans bringing nationality into this, and it ain't the Welsh. Why we get so hung up on where somebody comes from is beyond me.

Secretfly, that was a nice passage you wrote, but I do not know what relevance it has to this topic as we are not concerned with nationality.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by marty2086 on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 3:50 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Why are people getting caught up in nationalities ? I can only guess it is because they want to skew the argument in their own favour. I have said multiple times, I do not care where the ref comes from, I have also read that Phil has said he is quite happy to have an Irish ref to officiate his team against an Irish side.

What my concern is, that the officials are the same as the players, in the fact they are all under the same employment. If a Welshman was working as a referee and employed by the IRFU, I would still not be happy with him reffing against an IRFU team. You all know what I would like to see with regards to the officials in our league.

As for the TMO's, again, what has nationality got to do with it ? My concern is the fact that some games get them, some games do not. We should not accept this.

There are only one set of fans bringing nationality into this, and it ain't the Welsh. Why we get so hung up on where somebody comes from is beyond me.

Secretfly, that was a nice passage you wrote, but I do not know what relevance it has to this topic as we are not concerned with nationality.

Phil has said a lot of things many of them outright BS

You are complaining who employs the officials, this is where Flys comments come into it. What are they employed to do?

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Munchkin on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 3:52 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Why are people getting caught up in nationalities ? I can only guess it is because they want to skew the argument in their own favour. I have said multiple times, I do not care where the ref comes from, I have also read that Phil has said he is quite happy to have an Irish ref to officiate his team against an Irish side.

What my concern is, that the officials are the same as the players, in the fact they are all under the same employment. If a Welshman was working as a referee and employed by the IRFU, I would still not be happy with him reffing against an IRFU team. You all know what I would like to see with regards to the officials in our league.

As for the TMO's, again, what has nationality got to do with it ? My concern is the fact that some games get them, some games do not. We should not accept this.

There are only one set of fans bringing nationality into this, and it ain't the Welsh. Why we get so hung up on where somebody comes from is beyond me.

Secretfly, that was a nice passage you wrote, but I do not know what relevance it has to this topic as we are not concerned with nationality.

Surely nationalities have to come into an argument about neutral refs/TMO's?

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 3:53 pm

marty2086 wrote:You are complaining who employs the officials, this is where Flys comments come into it. What are they employed to do?

An official, who is under the same employment as the people who he is supposed to be impartial to, is not neutral. There is a conflict of interest there, and it is damaging to the league.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 3:55 pm

Munchkin wrote:Surely nationalities have to come into an argument about neutral refs/TMO's?

Why ? Seriously, do you honestly think an official from the same country as the team he is officiating could be biased towards his own countrymen ?

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by marty2086 on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 3:56 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You are complaining who employs the officials, this is where Flys comments come into it. What are they employed to do?

An official, who is under the same employment as the people who he is supposed to be impartial to, is not neutral. There is a conflict of interest there, and it is damaging to the league.

Neither is someone of the same nationality but you and Phil seem blind to that

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 3:58 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You are complaining who employs the officials, this is where Flys comments come into it. What are they employed to do?

An official, who is under the same employment as the people who he is supposed to be impartial to, is not neutral. There is a conflict of interest there, and it is damaging to the league.

Neither is someone of the same nationality but you and Phil seem blind to that

marty, lets move away from nationality. Lets take it out of the debate. Myself or phil are not and never have spoken about nationalities on this debate. That is just coming from our Irish members to try and make something of nothing, to cause an argument that is not there, as they would rather avoid the brass tax.

We need to talk about employment.


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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Munchkin on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 4:00 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Surely nationalities have to come into an argument about neutral refs/TMO's?

Why ? Seriously, do you honestly think an official from the same country as the team he is officiating could be biased towards his own countrymen ?

No more than a ref from the same Province or Region. Are you accusing them of bias? A few of your fellow countrymen seem to think it matters though. " an Irish ref reffing an Irish team against us blah blah blah". As far as I'm aware that's what PRO12 mean when they say 'neutral refs'.

If it isn't an issue with nationally, then PRO12 have no need to work towards neutral refs, as the problem doesn't really exist.


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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 4:04 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Surely nationalities have to come into an argument about neutral refs/TMO's?

Why ? Seriously, do you honestly think an official from the same country as the team he is officiating could be biased towards his own countrymen ?

No more than a ref from the same Province or Region. A few of your fellow countrymen seem to think it matters though. " an Irish ref reffing an Irish team against us blah blah blah". As far as I'm aware; that's what PRO12 mean when they say 'neutral refs'.

Read this whole topic, and put me straight then, show me where we have said any of that. We are not talking about that. We are talking about an official who is directly employed by the Leinster branch, and is now officiating Leinster. It does not make a difference if Dudley Phillips is Irish,Welsh, or whatever. For whatever reason, our Irish member are choosing to ignore this and start harping on about nationalities.


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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by marty2086 on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 4:04 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You are complaining who employs the officials, this is where Flys comments come into it. What are they employed to do?

An official, who is under the same employment as the people who he is supposed to be impartial to, is not neutral. There is a conflict of interest there, and it is damaging to the league.

Neither is someone of the same nationality but you and Phil seem blind to that

marty, lets move away from nationality. Lets take it out of the debate. Myself or phil are not and never have spoken about nationalities on this debate. That is just coming from our Irish members to try and make something of nothing, to cause an argument that is not there, as they would rather avoid the brass tax.

We need to talk about employment.

No we don't you talk about neutrality

There are more than one way to not be neutral

You also ignore the fact that the WRU employ the NDC players and refs and say its not the case

So what is the point of talking about anything when you immune to facts and want to focus so small elements of a larger issue?

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 4:08 pm

Would you all just like to argue on here then ?

It would seem that our Irish members are only concerned with taking things into a direction that will cause an argument.

For that reason, I AM OUT.

There is no talking to any of you.

picard

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Munchkin on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 4:10 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Surely nationalities have to come into an argument about neutral refs/TMO's?

Why ? Seriously, do you honestly think an official from the same country as the team he is officiating could be biased towards his own countrymen ?

No more than a ref from the same Province or Region. A few of your fellow countrymen seem to think it matters though. " an Irish ref reffing an Irish team against us blah blah blah". As far as I'm aware; that's what PRO12 mean when they say 'neutral refs'.

Read this whole topic, and put me straight then, show me where we have said any of that. We are not talking about that. We are talking about an official who is directly employed by the Leinster branch, and is now officiating Leinster. It does not make a difference if Dudley Phillips is Irish,Welsh, or whatever. For whatever reason, our Irish member are choosing to ignore this and start harping on about nationalities.

I didn't say anyone here said that, and if you think the 'neutral reffing' the PRO12 is working towards is not related to nationality, you live in cloud cuckcoo land. The perceived bias is rooted in nationality.


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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by SecretFly on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 4:11 pm

Griff wrote:


You're right here Fly.  But I guess it's a bit like research.  In research you always acknowledge that bias is present/inherent/unavoidable but do everything you can to limit it or remove as much bias as you can.  If we acknowledge that bias is more likely to be in home officials then we remove them and replace then with 'more neutral' officials from another Pro 12 nation (like we're doing).  If we're now saying that those are a bit biased still and might have vested interests in certain clubs or nations then perhaps we go a step further to eliminate more bias and bring in officials from the RFU or France?  I've often wondered (usually during the debates about home officials, where the reason given for home officials is a lack of officials from other nations) why we don't share officials around a bit more?  The experience of another league would be a good thing for them.  And they're not a million miles away.  An English ref would have less vested interest and therefore bias than a Pro12 ref.

Well on a personal level, I honestly don't have issues with refs and where they come from. I seldom look at who is reffing unless I'm coaxed to look over things when I contribute to threads like this. And I'll admit I've had fun with a few refs in my day - but if we had Barnes again in some big decisive game at International level (and undoubtedly we will!) I'll have a giggle and get on with it.  You take the circumstances you are given - like wet days or windy days (incidentally one of the reasons why I'm not a fan of roofs on stadiums.  I like the idea of weather becoming a factor now and again)

Anyway, I wouldn't be against that notion of having AP or Top14 refs coming in at all, Griff.  It might be good for presenting Pro12 teams with fresh eyes and getting club players familiar with refs they might meet down the line when playing International or even in European competition.  I wouldn't say no to the idea.

But a few things.  It wouldn't diminish the brooding presence of potential bias - because yet again, what happens in the League influences results that will then lead to certain teams turning up in Europe - where AP and Top14 teams are waiting.  There is a potential that a French ref might like to see certain Pro12 sides reach the top 6 and others miss out Wink

But that's just one technical point and I suppose my main point;  I say in theory you can never isolate refs from potential bias.  Adults are smart people, rugby is big business and everyone knows how the systems work.

The other point is that it would have to be rigidly reciprocated.  I wouldn't accept this notion that we get graced by Top14 or AP refs (to help us out in our little League) but they refuse to use any of ours on grounds of 'lack of experience or ability'.  We take on board French and English refs, they take on board our selection.  Nothing else acceptable.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by marty2086 on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 4:20 pm

Because this thread has been argument free when talking about what you want to talk about?

You need to wind your neck in, you want to discuss one element of a larger problem that's like throwing buckets of water onto your burning house

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Pot Hale on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 4:20 pm

To have TMO facilities for every match would require every stadium used in the PRO12 to be fitted out with a number of fixed cameras - probably 6-8 - so that relevant angles of view could be provided for a TMO to assess.

Some stadia already have fixed cameras in place for general recording of matches for highlights, match analysis, etc. These would need to be supplemented by try line/corner cameras to provide the necessary views for a TMO to provide feedback/decision.

That's a combination of a capital investment by the league/clubs to have that in every ground, plus coming to an agreement with a broadcaster to record every match, whether broadcast or not. The Premiership did it about 3 years ago.

The priority given this year by the PRO12 to improving officiating was to have a neutral TMO at every match, where humanly possibly given the current people resources they have. I'm surprised that a Welsh TMO has been assigned to the Ulster v Ospreys match this weekend, but at least it's not an Irish TMO.

Neutrality of officials, including TMOs has been an issue raised by fans and by clubs/coaching staff. So whilst it may not be an issue for fans on this forum, it is an issue with others.

I have not seen the issue of who employs the officials raised elsewhere in media but perhaps I have just have not seen media articles on the topic. But the nationality of officials certainly has been. The PRO12 has said they want to get TMOs neutral first, and by end of three years, that they will have sufficient Scottish and Italian refs to ensure that referees are neutral at every match. If this comes to pass, then will the issue of who employs them be as relevant or important as espoused on this forum?

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 4:24 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Lets move away from nationality. Lets take it out of the debate. Myself or phil are not and never have spoken about nationalities on this debate. That is just coming from our Irish members to try and make something of nothing, to cause an argument that is not there, as they would rather avoid the brass tax.

It's a killer, that brass tax.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by marty2086 on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 4:27 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Neutrality of officials, including TMOs has been an issue raised by fans and by clubs/coaching staff.  So whilst it may not be an issue for fans on this forum, it is an issue with others.

I have not seen the issue of who employs the officials raised elsewhere in media but perhaps I have just have not seen media articles on the topic.   But the nationality of officials certainly has been.  The PRO12 has said they want to get TMOs neutral first, and by end of three years, that they will have sufficient Scottish and Italian refs to ensure that referees are neutral at every match.   If this comes to pass, then will the issue of who employs them be as relevant or important as espoused on this forum?

The reason the issue was raised was because some perceive a bias, particularly an Irish one. The figures show in fact that the Irish teams do worse with an Irish ref against the teams from the other nations.

Anayi specifically mentioned nationality and the perceived bias that goes with it, not employment as LD and Phil seem so obsessed with

The two biggest issues are the number and quality of the available officials and as Anayi stated it requires time and money but is an ongoing process

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Notch on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 6:17 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Lets move away from nationality. Lets take it out of the debate. Myself or phil are not and never have spoken about nationalities on this debate. That is just coming from our Irish members to try and make something of nothing, to cause an argument that is not there, as they would rather avoid the brass tax.

It's a killer, that brass tax.

The only people it benefits are the copper merchants. Blydi IRFU and their rules!

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Notch on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 6:32 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Lets move away from nationality. Lets take it out of the debate. Myself or phil are not and never have spoken about nationalities on this debate. That is just coming from our Irish members to try and make something of nothing, to cause an argument that is not there, as they would rather avoid the brass tax.

Oh really?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I don't see why this has happened,there's no need for it surely he could have reffed the Connacht or Ulster match.It's not a huge deal but it's unnecessary since they is a ref from Munster in Wales fro the Dragons game.Just swap them and there's no problem.

SecretFly wrote:Dudley should never be reffing Leinster.

Notch wrote:Not arguing that it should happen- Leinster ref refereeing Leinster shouldn't happen.

Munchkin wrote:I agree. It shouldn't happen if it can be avoided.

Pot Hale wrote:Should Dudley Phillips be reffing the Leinster game this weekend?   No.

Seems like there is absolutely no dissent with the actual point that this should't happen. What people take exception to is the way things are said and the attitude that goes with it. If you're condescending or patronising or negative that puts peoples backs up. And then that, without fail, gets a reaction from other posters. And then it starts an argument.

So maybe the way to have discussions like this is to be less confrontational and more constructive, because if you're overly negative and confrontational people just reciprocate in kind. I don't endorse that either but I know why it happens. And it doesn't need to be this way because people don't actually disagree with the point being made, and while some people have advanced reasonable counter-arguments about bias, no-one has any substantial disagreement that it would be better for the league if he was refereeing a different game at least in terms of appearances.

Unfortunately once some posters get perceived as being negative or unpleasant that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy on both sides. But let's be honest- no-one is trying to dodge the issue. The reason this is a really crap thread is because of personalities not differences of opinion.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 7:05 pm

Notch wrote:So maybe the way to have discussions like this is to be less confrontational and more constructive,

How very hypocritical. OK, can you do a post, like the one above, with ALL the constructive input put into this debate by your mates, please ?

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Notch on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 8:08 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Notch wrote:So maybe the way to have discussions like this is to be less confrontational and more constructive,

How very hypocritical. OK, can you do a post, like the one above, with ALL the constructive input put into this debate by your mates, please ?

I'm not responsible for them and I'm also not exempting them from my comments.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 8:32 pm

Notch wrote:I'm not responsible for them and I'm also not exempting them from my comments.

OK fair enough. As long as we all know.

At least we can have some meritocracy on here. Very Happy

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Pot Hale on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 10:13 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Surely nationalities have to come into an argument about neutral refs/TMO's?

Why ? Seriously, do you honestly think an official from the same country as the team he is officiating could be biased towards his own countrymen ?

No more than a ref from the same Province or Region. A few of your fellow countrymen seem to think it matters though. " an Irish ref reffing an Irish team against us blah blah blah". As far as I'm aware; that's what PRO12 mean when they say 'neutral refs'.

Read this whole topic, and put me straight then, show me where we have said any of that. We are not talking about that. We are talking about an official who is directly employed by the Leinster branch, and is now officiating Leinster. It does not make a difference if Dudley Phillips is Irish,Welsh, or whatever. For whatever reason, our Irish member are choosing to ignore this and start harping on about nationalities.

So you have a problem because Dudley Phillips is directly employed by the Leinster branch?

PhilBB wrote:Dudley Phillips is employed by the IRFU as a "Participation Rugby Operations Officer". He used to be part of the Leinster Branch Rugby Referees...

Phillips was promoted to IRFU panel in January 2013.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by St John The Enforcer on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 12:17 pm

Just to add some more fuel to the fire.

Cuddly Duddley is a Marys man through and through. He also married into a Marys family. Brother in law plays for them. Mother in law was a very well loved offical for marys and Leinster. He is a decent skin and an all round good egg.

Leinster players from the Marys club include Shane Jennings. And...... Today's Leinster captain.... Jonny Sexton.

It's a conspiracy I tells yah.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by carpet baboon on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 12:44 pm

My take on it is quite simple.
He's a grown man being paid to do his job, I belive that like me and everyone else when they turn up for work they do the best they can.
As wouldn't you as a ref aspire to be at the top table reffing internationals?
So being biased aint gonna help you get to the top. It will ultimately see you unemployed.
I understand why it should be avoided if it can.
But really people, he is an adult in an adult world trying to do his job. If he's good bad or indifferent so be it.
Not really worth all the agro at the end of the day. It's just a game

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Pot Hale on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 8:13 pm

Quite a hostile crowd at Cardiff's ground tonight - heckling Phillips a lot on his decisions.

But they're happy now they've scored.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Pot Hale on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 8:18 pm

The Welsh TMO says to award the try. The Irish ref queries it and the Welsh TMO changes his mind and says no.


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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Pot Hale on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 8:22 pm

Constant booing by a section of the crowd of every decision against the team. Surprising.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Pot Hale on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 9:13 pm

Somewhat better from the crowd now in the second half.

13-16 to Leinster now after a penalty and card to Navidi.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Pot Hale on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 9:24 pm

And Cardiff miss out on getting a try at end.

FT

Crowd not happy and a lot of booing on referee decisions.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by gog1992 on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 9:37 pm

Just saying....http://en.espn.co.uk/ireland/rugby/player/87363.html

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Griff on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 9:38 pm

Only watched a few minutes. Saw him award a try after what I considered a blatant double movement by the Leinster player. I don't feel this was anything to do with Dudley's nationality btw. I doubt it was bias. But I feel it was an error on his behalf. And that turned the game really.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Notch on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 9:41 pm

You'd always hope in the situation he's in he has a good game to head off any further controversy. But, at the end of the day, he's still Dudley Phillips.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Seagultaf on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 9:42 pm

Griff wrote:Only watched a few minutes. Saw him award a try after what I considered a blatant double movement but the Leinster player. I don't feel this was anything to do with Dudley's nationality btw. I doubt it was bias. But I feel it was an error on his behalf. And that turned the game really.

Ref was poor overall, missed lots and left a lot go. The Leinster try did look a double movement in the slow motion replay, but there looked to be a clear obstruction to create the gap that Anscombe ran through for the Cardiff try, so pretty much evened out.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Griff on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 10:05 pm

Seagultaf wrote:
Griff wrote:Only watched a few minutes. Saw him award a try after what I considered a blatant double movement but the Leinster player. I don't feel this was anything to do with Dudley's nationality btw. I doubt it was bias. But I feel it was an error on his behalf. And that turned the game really.

Ref was poor overall, missed lots and left a lot go. The Leinster try did look a double movement in the slow motion replay, but there looked to be a clear obstruction to create the gap that Anscombe ran through for the Cardiff try, so pretty much evened out.

Yep, not trying to judge him overall. As I said I only saw a few minutes Smile

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 11:23 pm

The Leinster try that changed the game appeared to be a double movement, it's certainly raised a few eyebrows - more eyebrows than usual are now raised seeing as it was Dudley Phillips officiating his colleagues and apparently getting the plane down with the team. My question is why didn't Dudley go upstairs? It was either because Cardiff didn't protest and bring it to his attention, or Dudley didn't want to upset his mates.
I only caught the end of the first half and then the second half - Leinster certainly looked the better team in the second half so I can conclude they were deserved winners. There's been a lot of angry comments on the matter this evening. I'm not sure if they are all Cardiff fans but they certainly need to let it go now.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Stone Motif on Sat 01 Oct 2016, 11:24 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Lets move away from nationality. Lets take it out of the debate. Myself or phil are not and never have spoken about nationalities on this debate. That is just coming from our Irish members to try and make something of nothing, to cause an argument that is not there, as they would rather avoid the brass tax.

It's a killer, that brass tax.

Never fit carpet with anything else

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Pot Hale on Sun 02 Oct 2016, 1:04 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:The Leinster try that changed the game appeared to be a double movement, it's certainly raised a few eyebrows - more eyebrows than usual are now raised seeing as it was Dudley Phillips officiating his colleagues and apparently getting the plane down with the team. My question is why didn't Dudley go upstairs? It was either because Cardiff didn't protest and bring it to his attention, or Dudley didn't want to upset his mates.
I only caught the end of the first half and then the second half - Leinster certainly looked the better team in the second half so I can conclude they were deserved winners. There's been a lot of angry comments on the matter this evening. I'm not sure if they are all Cardiff fans but they certainly need to let it go now.

"Apparently getting the plane down with the team". The plane? As in a special Leinster plane, or the only scheduled flight, or what? Do you think he talked to the players and made arrangements in advance?

Dudley Phillips officiating his colleagues? Is Dudley employed by Leinster Rugby? Someone else said he was employed by IRFU.

Did you see the Leinster try attempt that was ruled OK by the Welsh TMO, and was then queried by Phillips, and TMO changed his mind? Do you think Phillips should have gone upstairs on that occasion?


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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by SecretFly on Sun 02 Oct 2016, 1:09 pm

Pot Hale wrote:

Did you see the Leinster try attempt that was ruled OK by the Welsh TMO, and was then queried by Phillips, and TMO changed his mind?   Do you think Phillips should have gone upstairs on that occasion?


OK This! - as they used to say on this site in the old days.

I didn't want to mention that last night as when people are in a sensitive mood they get blind to the other stuff that cancels out their presumptions. I said to myself, let them vent.
Welsh TMO didn't have a clue what he was talking about.  "You may award the try"  Dudley: 'are you kidding me?'

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 02 Oct 2016, 5:10 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:The Leinster try that changed the game appeared to be a double movement, it's certainly raised a few eyebrows - more eyebrows than usual are now raised seeing as it was Dudley Phillips officiating his colleagues and apparently getting the plane down with the team. My question is why didn't Dudley go upstairs? It was either because Cardiff didn't protest and bring it to his attention, or Dudley didn't want to upset his mates.
I only caught the end of the first half and then the second half - Leinster certainly looked the better team in the second half so I can conclude they were deserved winners. There's been a lot of angry comments on the matter this evening. I'm not sure if they are all Cardiff fans but they certainly need to let it go now.

"Apparently getting the plane down with the team".   The plane?  As in a special Leinster plane, or the only scheduled flight, or what?  Do you think he talked to the players and made arrangements in advance?

Dudley Phillips officiating his colleagues?    Is Dudley employed by Leinster Rugby?  Someone else said he was employed by IRFU.

Did you see the Leinster try attempt that was ruled OK by the Welsh TMO, and was then queried by Phillips, and TMO changed his mind?   Do you think Phillips should have gone upstairs on that occasion?


I imagine that on their budget they went with that crooked Irish airline Ryanair. Yeah he might have, but I'm not sure. One thing I'm sure of is on the way over they all drank mini cans of Guinness together and sang songs about life growing up in Dublin - the days before there was a McDonald's on every corner.

He was formerly employed by the Leinster branch right? Anyone know what his new role entails now? Seems a bit of an endorsement role to disguise his real one...

I didn't see it, so presumably it was in the first half which I said that I missed. On that occasion it sounds like he did go upstairs seeing as you've already mentioned he conferred with the TMO. If it's not clear and obvious then yes by all means use the TMO. I think he should have also went upstairs for the apparent double movement try - and I've already stated why he might not have went upstairs. Very poor if he couldn't see a clear double movement.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by SecretFly on Sun 02 Oct 2016, 5:20 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:

I didn't see it, so presumably it was in the first half which I said that I missed. On that occasion it sounds like he did go upstairs seeing as you've already mentioned he conferred with the TMO. If it's not clear and obvious then yes by all means use the TMO. I think he should have also went upstairs for the apparent double movement try - and I've already stated why he might not have went upstairs. Very poor if he couldn't see a clear double movement.

Well one possible reason Mikey is that he didn't trust the TMO? The Welsh fans didn't trust Dudley, Dudley didn't trust the TMO (and already had evidence in the bag to back him up), and the TMO didn't trust his own eyes by the sound of it - despite the many angles he had available to him that the ref didn't.....

I guess the conclusion is we'll hear it all in fine detail on Monday from the guys who'll notch it down to more evidence as to why Pro12 is a sham.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 02 Oct 2016, 5:30 pm

That's one plausible reason, but Dudley can see it for himself on the big screen and again, he can overrule the TMO. As it stands he didn't go upstairs and might have made the wrong decision in awarding the try. It's done now so we'll all have to move on - however it is another match that shows us how average the referees, TMOs, etc. are. If the Pro12 employed their own ref's then might that lead to better officiating? I don't know, but it would certainly please a lot of supporters in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and maybe Italy...

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Munchkin on Sun 02 Oct 2016, 5:33 pm

Has anyone a clip of this 'double movement'?

There is no such thing as a double movement, in Rugby Union Law. The Law does make clear that a tackled player can immediately pass the ball on to, or over, the try-line. So, if a player is tackled before reaching the try-line, that player can then reach out for the try-line, as long as the official judges that the movement was 'immediate'.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 02 Oct 2016, 5:34 pm

I don't. I'm awaiting my colleagues on Chum V because they'll certainly have something to say about it. Jiffy will give a fair and unbiased account of it Smile.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by Munchkin on Sun 02 Oct 2016, 5:36 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I don't. I'm awaiting my colleagues on Chum V because they'll certainly have something to say about it. Jiffy will give a fair and unbiased account of it Smile.

Sure, we can always trust jiffy to be objective Smile

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by SecretFly on Sun 02 Oct 2016, 6:01 pm

Yes, it's about delaying too long and then trying a smart 'reach' three or four seconds after having being stopped trying to get to the line.

Anyway, I can't talk on the detail as Mikey didn't see the first half, with the Leinster 'try' that was correctly disallowed by Dudley, and I couldn't watch the second half, where it's said he allowed a Lesinter try that wasn't.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 02 Oct 2016, 6:13 pm

They didn't show it. They pointed out a few decisions made by Phillips that were clearly wrong when blues the receiving end of it, like you'd expect but heck they were costly. The Leinster player didn't reach out straight away to score, he was tackled and both arms were on the ground - there was a definite pause before placing the ball down.

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Re: Dudley Phillips

Post by carpet baboon on Sun 02 Oct 2016, 6:34 pm

Did they show Jenkins obstruction for anscombes try?

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Re: Dudley Phillips

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