Three Down, One To Go

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Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 5:17 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37493141

This makes Anayi's words on 'the benefactor model' look even more out of touch.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Munchkin on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 6:46 pm

meh

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 6:54 pm

Isn't this quite old news?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 6:57 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Isn't this quite old news?

No.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 7:01 pm

I'm sure they were discussing it toward the end of last season. Can any of the Scottish lads confirm or deny?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 7:04 pm

carpet baboon wrote:I'm sure they were discussing it toward the end of last season. Can any of the Scottish lads confirm or deny?

The "news" is that it is going to a vote. That's the new news.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 7:07 pm

Yes I can read. But the fact they were looking to sell part or all control of the two clubs is not.
Why so angry Phil?. If it works for the Scots then good for them.
I want them to stay strong and competitive. It helps build a strong pro12

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Artful_Dodger on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 7:38 pm

"SRU would want to ensure buyers would make commitments in terms of future investment and in bringing through young Scottish players before selling stakes in either pro team."

This is the problem. How are you going to tell an investor or potential investor 'We want you to take over the club and make them successful with your dosh, but make sure you look after our interests at the same time.'

It just doesn't work like that. Another case of trying to have your cake and eat it in my view, its going to be incredibly difficult for the SRU to attract private investment whilst still having the game run for the benefit of Scottish rugby in a union sense.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by SecretFly on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 7:46 pm

Phil is right. Three down - one to go. Hopefully the remaining one gets sense soon. Good thread.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 8:04 pm

Well the IRFU have already said this is the route they want to go down, and the clubs are already set up so just finding the right time, and getting the best value is the way to go. I reckon it'll be around the time of when the new PRO12 league structure is put in place.

I wonder if the WRU will do the same and let the Welsh regions go their own way independently. Might help with getting back some of the Welsh players from England and aframce b

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 8:07 pm

SecretFly wrote:Phil is right.  Three down - one to go.  Hopefully the remaining one gets sense soon.  Good thread.

Laugh

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 8:41 pm

It seems the WRU may yet be stuck with their regional model with the attempts to sell their stake in Dragons not getting much traction in the marketplace from the current private stakeholders or any new ones.

Might be an opportune time to shut it down and concentrate resources into the other three teams.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by RiscaGame on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 8:43 pm

It's not sell their stake in their Dragons really, is it.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by EWT Spoons on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 8:45 pm

carpet baboon wrote:I'm sure they were discussing it toward the end of last season. Can any of the Scottish lads confirm or deny?

Yeah it was first mentioned end of last season/beginning of this. This is just them taking it to a vote so that's new. Won't make a difference as no one will want to invest/buy

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 8:54 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:I'm sure they were discussing it toward the end of last season. Can any of the Scottish lads confirm or deny?

Yeah it was first mentioned end of last season/beginning of this.  This is just them taking it to a vote so that's new.  Won't make a difference as no one will want to invest/buy

Hmm. Similar to Welsh situation then, maybe?

I would have thought Glasgow might be a more attractive prospect. Wait and see I suppose.


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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 9:17 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:I'm sure they were discussing it toward the end of last season. Can any of the Scottish lads confirm or deny?

Yeah it was first mentioned end of last season/beginning of this.  This is just them taking it to a vote so that's new.  Won't make a difference as no one will want to invest/buy

See phill I told you it's nothing new. And I think everyone is looking for new investment.


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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Recwatcher16 on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 10:40 pm

It will be fascinating to see if anyone comes forward with any proposal, although presumably some of the contract details will likely remain confidential.

The risks are in some ways different to those faced by French and English owners twenty odd years ago because now there is a greater clarity of the games professional structure but there are risks nonetheless, not least from the other two NH leagues which are now becoming commercially successful.

Ultimately the Unions have to divest from the financial risks of running regional teams or they will lose completely their greatest asset - control of the players.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by profitius on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 10:59 pm

Apparently Ulster has the second highest turnover of the top teams in the UK and Ireland. Leinster feature fairly high up there too. Is that a bad thing? They're run like businesses anyway.


People make out like the unions are run like the public sector i.e. inefficiently. That's not the case at all. They're basically businesses themselves and care about results.


Obviously the unions are now looking to make the pro12 more competitive and self sufficient. Yes, I would agree that they should have been more proactive in the past but the pro12 is still a newish competition and growing.


You can't win with some people though. As Martin Anayi looks to make the changes everyone's crying out for, he is criticised for showing ambition!


I've very libertarian views when it comes to business but I don't get philbbs fascination with how Scottish and Irish rugby is run. The Irish teams have an unfair advantage but if they do, are they supposed to apologise for that?


Will the IRFU look for private investment? Possibly. Do they need to? Not for the time being. The stadium is paid off already and that's a cash cow for them. If the pro12 can become more self sufficient and have the potential to make money in the future then why would they want to sell any shares in the provinces. Investors will want to make a profit so if they do come in you could have a future scenario of money flowing out into private pockets. If wealthy people are feeling charitable then they can give without investing, like some already do.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 12:04 am

profitius wrote:Apparently Ulster has the second highest turnover of the top teams in the UK and Ireland. Leinster feature fairly high up there too. Is that a bad thing? They're run like businesses anyway.


People make out like the unions are run like the public sector i.e. inefficiently. That's not the case at all. They're basically businesses themselves and care about results.


Obviously the unions are now looking to make the pro12 more competitive and self sufficient. Yes, I would agree that they should have been more proactive in the past but the pro12 is still a newish competition and growing.

Will the IRFU look for private investment? Possibly. Do they need to? Not for the time being. The stadium is paid off already and that's a cash cow for them. If the pro12 can become more self sufficient and have the potential to make money in the future then why would they want to sell any shares in the provinces. Investors will want to make a profit so if they do come in you could have a future scenario of money flowing out into private pockets. If wealthy people are feeling charitable then they can give without investing, like some already do.
I don't see it as an unfair advantage at all. Some unions choose to sell off their teams to private investors, others don't.

In Scotland, it looks the union is driving the potential involvement of private investment. If it happens in Ireland, I think it will be more likely driven by some or all of the provinces pushing for it.

Ulster, in some ways, is probably best placed to do it, given their financial acumen, and a somewhat captive market. From their annual report, it looks like they have less reliance on central IRFU monies, to keep their business running. But as the Premiership teams are finding out, salaries are going to continue to gobble up much of the increases in revenues, and the net returns are less than expected. Ulster acknowledge themselves, that their opportunities for further income generation are limited. So bringing in an investor may be inevitable as player costs rise further, unless the PRO12 can deliver increased revenues for the teams. Leinster are probably next in line. Munster's stadium debt on their books - with interest only payments to the IRFU being made this year - makes them a less attractive proposition, or a cheaper alternative for investment if this reduces their market value. Connacht will need to have a few more successful years under its belt, and need to be sustained. As Browne has indicated previously, control of players would be paramount for the union in contemplating any private investment.


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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:07 am

Pot Hale wrote:Well the IRFU have already said this is the route they want to go down, and the clubs are already set up so just finding the right time, and getting the best value is the way to go.  I reckon it'll be around the time of when the new PRO12 league structure is put in place.

I wonder if the WRU will do the same and let the Welsh regions go their own way independently.   Might help with getting back some of the Welsh players from England and aframce b

What on earth does that mean?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:12 am

carpet baboon wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:I'm sure they were discussing it toward the end of last season. Can any of the Scottish lads confirm or deny?

Yeah it was first mentioned end of last season/beginning of this.  This is just them taking it to a vote so that's new.  Won't make a difference as no one will want to invest/buy

See phill I told you it's nothing new. And I think everyone is looking for new investment.


..

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:14 am

profitius wrote: As Martin Anayi looks to make the changes everyone's crying out for, he is criticised for showing ambition!

Ignoring the rest of the stuff, Anayi went public to criticise 'the benefactor model'. By the beginning of next season, he may be Chief Executive of a league with 8 teams of the 'benefactor model' and 4 owned by the IRFU. That would make his position untenable.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:15 am

Pot Hale wrote: From their annual report, it looks like they have less reliance on central IRFU monies, to keep their business running.  


What has led you to believe that?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:58 am

So what's the ideal structure for the teams involved then? Private owners, with salary cap to match the Aviva; couple of players exempt from the cap? Private owners, with Unions able to pay anything they want to players?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:03 am

PhilBB wrote:
profitius wrote: As Martin Anayi looks to make the changes everyone's crying out for, he is criticised for showing ambition!

Ignoring the rest of the stuff, Anayi went public to criticise 'the benefactor model'. By the beginning of next season, he may be Chief Executive of a league with 8 teams of the 'benefactor model' and 4 owned by the IRFU. That would make his position untenable.

I do love your selective reading of things

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:07 am

carpet baboon wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
profitius wrote: As Martin Anayi looks to make the changes everyone's crying out for, he is criticised for showing ambition!

Ignoring the rest of the stuff, Anayi went public to criticise 'the benefactor model'. By the beginning of next season, he may be Chief Executive of a league with 8 teams of the 'benefactor model' and 4 owned by the IRFU. That would make his position untenable.

I do love your selective reading of things

That's ironic.

Here we will have 8 teams on the benefactor model.

"But we don't think we have to chase after a model that is in our minds unsustainable."
"The difference comes in the very wealthy backers over-funding. We don't really want a model that copies [the English and French], because we want to be here in 10 or 20 years time. I don't think it is sustainable."

4-8

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:12 am

Phill why do you hate the pro12 so much?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:17 am

Pot Hale wrote:Might be an opportune time to shut it down and concentrate resources into the other three teams.

Or to let somebody else have a go, I don't know, somebody who already owns a rugby club, in a populated town, with good infrastructure, and is already putting millions of pounds into it, and is richer than his brother who runs a professional club.

I wonder.....I wonder....hmmmmmm, who fits this description ? chin

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:22 am

profitius wrote:Will the IRFU look for private investment? Possibly.

I think you will find that the answer is not possibly. It already is happening in Ireland with businessmen outside the IRFU supplementing/paying players wages.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:24 am

Why is the Irish model so bad? The union does it utmost to keep Irish players in Ireland thus strengthening their club game. It also encourages investment from outside the union, which helps the signing of overseas players and big names - that's a model we can all follow.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:26 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Why is the Irish model so bad? The union does it utmost to keep Irish players in Ireland thus strengthening their club game. It also encourages investment from outside the union, which helps the signing of overseas players and big names - that's a model we can all follow.

Christ Mikey are you just trying to wind up phill now?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:26 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Why is the Irish model so bad? The union does it utmost to keep Irish players in Ireland thus strengthening their club game. It also encourages investment from outside the union, which helps the signing of overseas players and big names - that's a model we can all follow.

Because it stifles fair competition, which is the basic requirement for any vibrant league.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:26 am

Pot Hale wrote:It seems the WRU may yet be stuck with their regional model with the attempts to sell their stake in Dragons not getting much traction in the marketplace from the current private stakeholders or any new ones.

Might be an opportune time to shut it down and concentrate resources into the other three teams.  

Christ, have you been watching the boneheads on Chum V lately?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:27 am

PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Why is the Irish model so bad? The union does it utmost to keep Irish players in Ireland thus strengthening their club game. It also encourages investment from outside the union, which helps the signing of overseas players and big names - that's a model we can all follow.

Because it stifles fair competition, which is the basic requirement for any vibrant league.

But a very wealthy individual out spending everyone else is fair

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:28 am

carpet baboon wrote:

But a very wealthy individual out spending everyone else is fair

Yes, because everybody can get one of those

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:29 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Why is the Irish model so bad? The union does it utmost to keep Irish players in Ireland thus strengthening their club game. It also encourages investment from outside the union, which helps the signing of overseas players and big names - that's a model we can all follow.

I agree with this, the Irish model is not bad, it works for Irish rugby. In fact it is a good model. But I do think it takes the meritocracy out of the Pro12. We have teams in the Pro12 operating above their means because the unions are supplementing them, it is not fair on the teams who do not get that privilege and have to work within their means.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:29 am

PhilBB wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:

But a very wealthy individual out spending everyone else is fair

Yes, because everybody can get one of those

And when they leave?

So have Cardiff got one?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:31 am

LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Why is the Irish model so bad? The union does it utmost to keep Irish players in Ireland thus strengthening their club game. It also encourages investment from outside the union, which helps the signing of overseas players and big names - that's a model we can all follow.

I agree with this, the Irish model is not bad, it works for Irish rugby. In fact it is a good model. But I do think it takes the meritocracy out of the Pro12. We have teams in the Pro12 operating above their means because the unions are supplementing them, it is not fair on the teams who do not get that privilege and have to work within their means.

You mean like Saracens?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by profitius on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:31 am

LordDowlais wrote:
profitius wrote:Will the IRFU look for private investment? Possibly.

I think you will find that the answer is not possibly. It already is happening in Ireland with businessmen outside the IRFU supplementing/paying players wages.


That's not investment though. Thats philanthropy.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:32 am

carpet baboon wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:

But a very wealthy individual out spending everyone else is fair

Yes, because everybody can get one of those

And when they leave?

So have Cardiff got one?

They sell to others.

Multiple.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:33 am

PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Why is the Irish model so bad? The union does it utmost to keep Irish players in Ireland thus strengthening their club game. It also encourages investment from outside the union, which helps the signing of overseas players and big names - that's a model we can all follow.

Because it stifles fair competition, which is the basic requirement for any vibrant league.

That's why I want us to move towards it, as that way we still have a major obligation to developing the game in Wales and are stronger at club level. You seem to want to move towards the French model which is unsustainable (as shows by top teams getting relegated) and seems to hamper the international team. The Irish and NZ models are the best out there for me. I've no idea why the SRU thinks this is a good idea, unless it's just part of the clubs they are willing to sell?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:34 am

And when they can't find a buyer?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:34 am

profitius wrote:That's not investment though. Thats philanthropy.

Seriously ?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:36 am

carpet baboon wrote:So have Cardiff got one?

yes, and he has been bankrolling them for years, even before they were a region. Also, his brother is now doing it to a club 35 miles up the A470.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:38 am

carpet baboon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Why is the Irish model so bad? The union does it utmost to keep Irish players in Ireland thus strengthening their club game. It also encourages investment from outside the union, which helps the signing of overseas players and big names - that's a model we can all follow.

I agree with this, the Irish model is not bad, it works for Irish rugby. In fact it is a good model. But I do think it takes the meritocracy out of the Pro12. We have teams in the Pro12 operating above their means because the unions are supplementing them, it is not fair on the teams who do not get that privilege and have to work within their means.

You mean like Saracens?

Yes. Potentially every club in the world has a chance of winning the lottery by getting a sugar daddy. Union run models are not a potential for every club, no matter how good the model is.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:41 am

So basically both models are unfair and phill is upset his team's been Poopie for years so cry's about how unfair it is, even though Cardiff have multiple millionaire backers., Much like a sad little child

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:43 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
That's why I want us to move towards it, as that way we still have a major obligation to developing the game in Wales and are stronger at club level. You seem to want to move towards the French model which is unsustainable (as shows by top teams getting relegated) and seems to hamper the international team. The Irish and NZ models are the best out there for me. I've no idea why the SRU thinks this is a good idea, unless it's just part of the clubs they are willing to sell?

Wow.

It seems that you think we can't have an independent professional tier and develop the game.

That seems odd.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:44 am

carpet baboon wrote:And when they can't find a buyer?

You change the product.

What happens when the Union runs out of money?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:44 am

carpet baboon wrote:So basically both models are unfair and phill is upset his team's been Poopie for years so cry's about how unfair it is, even though Cardiff have multiple millionaire backers., Much like a sad little child

Oh dear.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:45 am

The Welsh are subsidisedby their union as well. There really isn't much difference when push comes to shove.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

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