Three Down, One To Go

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Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 5:17 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37493141

This makes Anayi's words on 'the benefactor model' look even more out of touch.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Munchkin on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 2:01 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:One thing I don't understand Phil, if the IRFU model is not working and Irish rugby is going into irreversible decline, surely as a Welshman this would be good for your teams, a weaker Irish team in the 6Ns/RWC, weaker Provinces in the PRO12/ERC means better results for the regions and all in all would usher in a golden age for Welsh club rugby, so why the desire to (in your eyes) make your rivals stronger/better ?

The Irish ownership model is one of the few remaining obstacles to the obvious implementation of a B&I League.

If the Irish model is weak, what does that say about the Welsh model?

Why would the Irish model be an obstruction to your fantasy B&I league? Is it a fantasy obstruction?

Fantasy Obliteration is what Phill wants Wink

Oh, I know. He's an odd one. Normally, anyone who tried to burn his own house down around him would be classed a lunatic.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by marty2086 on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 2:18 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:One thing I don't understand Phil, if the IRFU model is not working and Irish rugby is going into irreversible decline, surely as a Welshman this would be good for your teams, a weaker Irish team in the 6Ns/RWC, weaker Provinces in the PRO12/ERC means better results for the regions and all in all would usher in a golden age for Welsh club rugby, so why the desire to (in your eyes) make your rivals stronger/better ?

The Irish ownership model is one of the few remaining obstacles to the obvious implementation of a B&I League.

Maybe you can explain how its obvious?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 2:24 pm

The IRFU model is seen as an obstacle to those who believe in 100% private ownership of clubs as evidenced by the approach taken by various parties in the European Cup wrangling.  Nonetheless, the unions remained involved.

The resulting competition still has all six unions involved so the unions must still see they have a relevance and ownership of the competition - otherwise why would the French, English and Welsh unions have a seat at the table?

Creation of a British League involving teams from England and Wales could happen in theory since the clubs are owned by private interests. If Scotland sell one or both of their clubs, then they could be in the mix too.

This hasn't happened.  

Only if the Irish provinces were sold off, does it become a realistic possibility apparently.  Well maybe so.

The English clubs ask, quite reasonably, what's in it for them?

At the same time, the Premiership may want to look at changes to its own structure with consideration of ringfencing its league into a 14 or 16 team entity, and moving towards a conference model.   Rumours also say the Top 14 is considering a conference model in its future.  PRO12 is also considering a conference model.  

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that these various conference models might integrate at some point.  Either into a European competition or a British and Irish one.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:02 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:The Irish ownership model is one of the few remaining obstacles to the obvious implementation of a B&I League.

With the greatest respect Phil, the major obstacle to the formation of a B & I league is that the English clubs and the RFU do not want it to happen !

See this is what phill just can't accept. PRL don't give a flying fig about the welsh, or Irish or anyone but themselves.
PRL want total control, which they wouldnt have in a b&i league. And they certainly don't want to share any money with anyone .
The population and therefore potential profit from Wales is far to small. If they look any where it will be to France.
So phill these private businesses have no Intrest in the small change from Wales. Your stuck with us. Yeah

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by SecretFly on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:07 pm

Phill has left the building... again.

He needs time to re-think a few things like when a Union ain't a Union but is......

New Chapter will be published in due course... do not adjust your TV screens... normal service will resume.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by marty2086 on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:09 pm

SecretFly wrote:Phill has left the building... again.

He needs time to re-think a few things like when a Union ain't a Union but is......

New Chapter will be published in due course... do not adjust your TV screens... normal service will resume.

Don't go picking on Phil, you'll have his minion popping up and telling you off for it then there'll be a report made to the admins and no one will know who it was

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:12 pm

The other thing that amuses me is the belief that if everyone is privately owned they can just start any sort of league they want. The league and the participation in it have to be sanctioned by the union/unions who have jurisdiction in the geographical area concerned

So regardless of who owned the clubs if the league is not sanctioned no one is playing rugby union

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Sin é on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:17 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:The Irish ownership model is one of the few remaining obstacles to the obvious implementation of a B&I League.

With the greatest respect Phil, the major obstacle to the formation of a B & I league is that the English clubs and the RFU do not want it to happen !

See this is what phill just can't accept. PRL don't give a flying fig about the welsh, or Irish or anyone but themselves.
PRL want total control, which they wouldnt have in a b&i league. And they certainly don't want to share any money with anyone .
The population and therefore potential profit from Wales is far to small. If they look any where it will be to France.
So phill these private businesses have no Intrest in the small change from Wales. Your stuck with us. Yeah

Not a hope that the English & French clubs would merge into the same league. The French & English would never get on and eventually implode, not to mention that the French like their own, 100+ year, very successful competition and wouldn't want to share it.



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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:18 pm

Sin é wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:The Irish ownership model is one of the few remaining obstacles to the obvious implementation of a B&I League.

With the greatest respect Phil, the major obstacle to the formation of a B & I league is that the English clubs and the RFU do not want it to happen !

See this is what phill just can't accept. PRL don't give a flying fig about the welsh, or Irish or anyone but themselves.
PRL want total control, which they wouldnt have in a b&i league. And they certainly don't want to share any money with anyone .
The population and therefore potential profit from Wales is far to small. If they look any where it will be to France.
So phill these private businesses have no Intrest in the small change from Wales. Your stuck with us. Yeah

Not a hope that the English & French clubs would merge into the same league. The French & English would never get on and eventually implode, not to mention that the French like their own, 100+ year, very successful competition and wouldn't want to share it.




All true sin. But......... The money.

The money can turn proud men to fools

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by asoreleftshoulder on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:19 pm

Not a hope that the English & Welsh clubs would merge into the same league. The English like their own, 100+ year, very successful competition and wouldn't want to share it.




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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Sin é on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:20 pm

carpet baboon wrote:The other thing that amuses me is the belief that if everyone is privately owned they can just start any sort of league they want. The league and the participation in it have to be sanctioned by the union/unions who have jurisdiction in the geographical area concerned

So regardless of who owned the clubs if the league is not sanctioned no one is playing rugby union

That really amuses me as well. The only way a successful B&I League will happen is if the Unions involved arrange it. The Champs Cup is a fine example of how the PRL can turn a silk purse (Heineken Cup) into a sows ear of a competition. Wink
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:22 pm

Sin é wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:The other thing that amuses me is the belief that if everyone is privately owned they can just start any sort of league they want. The league and the participation in it have to be sanctioned by the union/unions who have jurisdiction in the geographical area concerned

So regardless of who owned the clubs if the league is not sanctioned no one is playing rugby union

That really amuses me as well. The only way a successful B&I League will happen is if the Unions involved arrange it. The Champs Cup is a fine example of how the PRL can turn a silk purse (Heineken Cup) into a sows ear of a competition. Wink

It's been pointed out on several occasions, but some people choose to pretend it's not true

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:25 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:The Irish ownership model is one of the few remaining obstacles to the obvious implementation of a B&I League.

With the greatest respect Phil, the major obstacle to the formation of a B & I league is that the English clubs and the RFU do not want it to happen !

See this is what phill just can't accept. PRL don't give a flying fig about the welsh, or Irish or anyone but themselves.
PRL want total control, which they wouldnt have in a b&i league. And they certainly don't want to share any money with anyone .
The population and therefore potential profit from Wales is far to small. If they look any where it will be to France.
So phill these private businesses have no Intrest in the small change from Wales. Your stuck with us. Yeah

His argument is a perfectly valid one which is that a more compelling and financially successful league could be created than the current separate two leagues.

For example, if Sky or BT fetched up in the morning and said we'll pay 275m for a combined B&I conference comp of 24 teams with a strict salary cap across all teams and PRO12 teams agree premiership teams get a premium of some sort to match what they already get so they don't lose out.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by SecretFly on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:29 pm

carpet baboon wrote:The other thing that amuses me is the belief that if everyone is privately owned they can just start any sort of league they want. The league and the participation in it have to be sanctioned by the union/unions who have jurisdiction in the geographical area concerned

So regardless of who owned the clubs if the league is not sanctioned no one is playing rugby union

But that's the very war.  That's the war between the Privates and the Generals(World Rugby/Unions).  The Privates want control of it all - not just the Club bit.  It's an attempted coup.  They (the clubs and the sponsors and interested broadcasters) want to eventually lay the law down on International too.  It's an aggressive buy out campaign that may not be designed as a sudden all-out strike but rather as a piece-meal erosion of the power of National Geographic entities that are called Unions bit by bit by bit.  The Corporate 'Globalisation' movement has begun their assault.  Team Sky England against Microsoft Australia Cool - not sponsored by these companies, virtually owned by them - dictating when they play, who they play, based on maximum profit for shareholders.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:33 pm

SecretFly wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:The other thing that amuses me is the belief that if everyone is privately owned they can just start any sort of league they want. The league and the participation in it have to be sanctioned by the union/unions who have jurisdiction in the geographical area concerned

So regardless of who owned the clubs if the league is not sanctioned no one is playing rugby union

But that's the very war.  That's the war between the Privates and the Generals(World Rugby/Unions).  The Privates want control of it all - not just the Club bit.  It's an attempted coup.  They (the clubs and the sponsors and interested broadcasters) want to eventually lay the law down on International too.  It's an aggressive buy out campaign that may not be designed as a sudden all-out strike but rather as a piece-meal erosion of the power of National Geographic entities that are called Unions bit by bit by bit.  The Corporate 'Globalisation' movement has begun their assault.  Team Sky England against Microsoft Australia  Cool  - not sponsored by these companies, virtually owned by them - dictating when they play, who they play, based on maximum profit for shareholders.

There is a story that a few years back certain people promised a certain tv channel that within 5 years they would have control of the national team and that the tv channel would get exclusive tv rights to the said national team.
So I do agree

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by SecretFly on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:34 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:The Irish ownership model is one of the few remaining obstacles to the obvious implementation of a B&I League.

With the greatest respect Phil, the major obstacle to the formation of a B & I league is that the English clubs and the RFU do not want it to happen !

See this is what phill just can't accept. PRL don't give a flying fig about the welsh, or Irish or anyone but themselves.
PRL want total control, which they wouldnt have in a b&i league. And they certainly don't want to share any money with anyone .
The population and therefore potential profit from Wales is far to small. If they look any where it will be to France.
So phill these private businesses have no Intrest in the small change from Wales. Your stuck with us. Yeah

His argument is a perfectly valid one which is that a more compelling and financially successful league could be created than the current separate two leagues.  

For example, if Sky or BT fetched up in the morning and said we'll pay 275m for a combined B&I conference comp of 24 teams with a strict salary cap across all teams and PRO12 teams agree premiership teams get a premium of some sort to match what they already get so they don't lose out.

Strict salary cap will not work as France will not apply it - as it's a race to the top that won't now stop.  
Teams see the opposition and want the same tools.  Potential investors see the marketing potential and want in.  Players see their colleagues pick up big pay-cheques in other Leagues and want in on that action.  Agents see the profits in the game that they can have a share of if they aggressively market their players and demand more and more.  Everyone sees MORE money on the horizon - each and every year - nobody is going to be sacrificing their 'fair' share of that increased income - least of all, the players.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:36 pm

France would presumably not be part of a British and Irish League. You meant to say Saracens and Bath I think Fly.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by SecretFly on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:41 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:France would presumably not be part of a British and Irish League. You meant to say Saracens and Bath I think Fly.

But France would be in the immediate area, paying bigger salaries. France by simply existing as a competitor 'League' would put far too much pressure on a B&I League not to chase them - you must compete or fail. The B&I League would eventually vote to compete. Cap would go. We already see it can't be controlled on anything called a 'strict' basis.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:46 pm

SecretFly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:France would presumably not be part of a British and Irish League. You meant to say Saracens and Bath I think Fly.

But France would be in the immediate area, paying bigger salaries. France by simply existing as a competitor 'League' would put far too much pressure on a B&I League not to chase them - you must compete or fail. The B&I League would eventually vote to compete. Cap would go. We already see it can't be controlled on anything called a 'strict' basis.

I don't agree with your doomsday scenario because you assume profligacy to the point of infinity. France has its limits too and I suspect has already reached them.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 3:48 pm

Ah I guess with higher income it would be a higher cap anyway though Fly. But it's not going to happen so pie in the sky.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:06 pm

Look, it is pointless talking about a B&I league as a matter of fact. At the moment, there are too many obstacles.

Phil, for all is hot air and arrogance, does make some good points, he also creates discussion, which is more than most do on here. To totally dismiss some of his points as rubbish, without any substance to back it up is what sums this forum up these days.

Union control and private control, in any guise, will always struggle, whilst trying to combine the two, as there will not be any meritocracy, this is a fact. Now if we can debate this without the p1ss taking and willy waving, then my fellow members, we have a decent debate on our hands.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:06 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
PhilBB wrote:The Irish ownership model is one of the few remaining obstacles to the obvious implementation of a B&I League.

With the greatest respect Phil, the major obstacle to the formation of a B & I league is that the English clubs and the RFU do not want it to happen !

50% untrue.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:07 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
I disagree,they could put out a Wales team without any of the regions players and while they would be a weak team they'd still draw crowds and generate revenue.The WRU created the regions so obviously they were able to get the money to invest without them.The regions could not function without all the players and fans that are provided by the work the WRU does.

Eh? The WRU didn't create 'the regions' at all.

You know that kids are picked up at 14 by PRW, right?
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:08 pm

Munchkin wrote:
If the Irish model is weak, what does that say about the Welsh model?

Why would the Irish model be an obstruction to your fantasy B&I league? Is it a fantasy obstruction?

The Welsh model is the correct model. Ask the SRU.

The Irish model is an obstruction because one entity owning and controlling the squad make up of four entrants is obviously against fair competition.

How many times does this blindingly obvious thing have to be written?
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:10 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Yes, The Sunday Independent ran with a report on 1 May saying the provinces would be 'lobbed' €500k each this year and the same again in 2017.  

I'm not sure if journalists are not listening properly or if actual additional monies for salaries and monies for other development purposes are being being cobbled together.  The IRFU has made clear that it is going to invest more money into the development pathways - at academy and club level and gave a clear figure against that at annual report publication.  

The IRFU published three releases at this time - you can read them on irish rugby.ie , including the one about an additional €1m between four provinces to help them compete on player salaries - here http://www.irishrugby.ie/mobile/provincial/37757.php

It must be me, but the figures in the link you provided don't add up.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:10 pm

marty2086 wrote:

Maybe you can explain how its obvious?

Every bloody time I have to.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:11 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
The resulting competition still has all six unions involved so the unions must still see they have a relevance and ownership of the competition - otherwise why would the French, English and Welsh unions have a seat at the table?

Because World Rugby regulations demand it.

That's all.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by SecretFly on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:12 pm

PhilBB wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
I disagree,they could put out a Wales team without any of the regions players and while they would be a weak team they'd still draw crowds and generate revenue.The WRU created the regions so obviously they were able to get the money to invest without them.The regions could not function without all the players and fans that are provided by the work the WRU does.

Eh? The WRU didn't create 'the regions' at all.

You know that kids are picked up at 14 by PRW, right?

Kids are selected at 14. You need to have a pool in order to select your choices from it.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:13 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Not a hope that the English & Welsh clubs would merge into the same league. The English like their own, 100+ year, very successful competition and wouldn't want to share it.




They have offered to, at least three times in the last 18 years.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:14 pm

Sin é wrote:
That really amuses me as well. The only way a successful B&I League will happen is if the Unions involved arrange it. The Champs Cup is a fine example of how the PRL can turn a silk purse (Heineken Cup) into a sows ear of a competition. Wink

The bitterness is awesome.

EPCR brought in more broadcast revenue in year one than the Irish blazers managed the whole competition to earn.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by marty2086 on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:14 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Maybe you can explain how its obvious?

Every bloody time I have to.

No you don't, you keep saying its obvious but never actually make out how it is when all there ever is simple discussions over its feasibility, with no idea of whats talked about or why it never happens, so nothing is obvious.

Its just you seeing the failure of your fantasy and your obsession with the IRFU leads you to a conclusion

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:14 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
If the Irish model is weak, what does that say about the Welsh model?

Why would the Irish model be an obstruction to your fantasy B&I league? Is it a fantasy obstruction?

The Welsh model is the correct model. Ask the SRU.

The Irish model is an obstruction because one entity owning and controlling the squad make up of four entrants is obviously against fair competition.

How many times does this blindingly obvious thing have to be written?

Err, if a private money model is to be pursued, the Welsh approach - I wouldn't even call it a model- is not the way to go about things.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:14 pm

Pot Hale wrote:

His argument is a perfectly valid one which is that a more compelling and financially successful league could be created than the current separate two leagues.  

For example, if Sky or BT fetched up in the morning and said we'll pay 275m for a combined B&I conference comp of 24 teams with a strict salary cap across all teams and PRO12 teams agree premiership teams get a premium of some sort to match what they already get so they don't lose out.

Shhh. Don't upset the dumbo clique. You'll get labelled 'annoying'.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:15 pm

Pot Hale wrote:

Err, if a private money model is to be pursued, the Welsh approach - I wouldn't even call it a model- is not the way to go about things.  

Really?

Please do explain why.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:16 pm

marty2086 wrote:

No you don't, you keep saying its obvious but never actually make out how it is when all there ever is simple discussions over its feasibility, with no idea of whats talked about or why it never happens, so nothing is obvious.

Its just you seeing the failure of your fantasy and your obsession with the IRFU leads you to a conclusion

Oh, ffs.

We go through this every time. Multiple ownership of teams in the same competition is not allowed by proper leagues, neither is employment of match officials as colleagues of participants.

This is basic, basic stuff.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by SecretFly on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:18 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:France would presumably not be part of a British and Irish League. You meant to say Saracens and Bath I think Fly.

But France would be in the immediate area, paying bigger salaries.  France by simply existing as a competitor 'League' would put far too much pressure on a B&I League not to chase them - you must compete or fail.  The B&I League would eventually vote to compete.  Cap would go.  We already see it can't be controlled on anything called a 'strict' basis.

I don't agree with your doomsday scenario because you assume profligacy to the point of infinity.  France has its limits too and I suspect has already reached them.

It's okay to disagree with me, Pot.  I ain't Phill, I ain't gonna take offence.  But I'm still right. Wink  

The cap will go in England on its own - it's already being knowingly broken without any real sanction.  If the creation of a B&I League would be as a result of trying to keep players and sponsors etc away from Top14 then cap would become meaningless.  That's not to say that all sides would be on limitless money for players - but that those few that could expend big, would be allowed to do so.  Pure Professionalism beating Blazeresque Unionism Wink


Last edited by SecretFly on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:20 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
The resulting competition still has all six unions involved so the unions must still see they have a relevance and ownership of the competition - otherwise why would the French, English and Welsh unions have a seat at the table?

Because World Rugby regulations demand it.

That's all.

World Rugby regulations insist there must be union representatives on the EPCR board??

First I've heard of it. I know WR has to give approval to such a comp, and generally union approval as well is a good thing, but does it regulate that the union must have directorial involvement, even where operation functions have been delegated to a body e.g. LNR or PRL?
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:23 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

His argument is a perfectly valid one which is that a more compelling and financially successful league could be created than the current separate two leagues.  

For example, if Sky or BT fetched up in the morning and said we'll pay 275m for a combined B&I conference comp of 24 teams with a strict salary cap across all teams and PRO12 teams agree premiership teams get a premium of some sort to match what they already get so they don't lose out.

Shhh. Don't upset the dumbo clique. You'll get labelled 'annoying'.


Phil I thought comments like that were beneath you?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:26 pm

Pot Hale wrote:

World Rugby regulations insist there must be union representatives on the EPCR board??

First I've heard of it.   I know WR has to give approval to such a comp, and generally union approval as well is a good thing, but does it regulate that the union must have directorial involvement, even where operation functions have been delegated to a body e.g. LNR or PRL?

There's a 50% equal split as WR regs wouldn't allow a club owned tournament.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:27 pm

carpet baboon wrote:

Phil I thought comments like that were beneath you?

Damn me for joining in.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:27 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:France would presumably not be part of a British and Irish League. You meant to say Saracens and Bath I think Fly.

But France would be in the immediate area, paying bigger salaries.  France by simply existing as a competitor 'League' would put far too much pressure on a B&I League not to chase them - you must compete or fail.  The B&I League would eventually vote to compete.  Cap would go.  We already see it can't be controlled on anything called a 'strict' basis.

I don't agree with your doomsday scenario because you assume profligacy to the point of infinity.  France has its limits too and I suspect has already reached them.

It's okay to disagree with me, Pot.  I ain't Phill, I ain't gonna take offence.  But I'm still right. Wink  

The cap will go in England on its own - it's already being knowingly broken without any real sanction.  If the creation of a B&I League would be as a result of trying to keep players and sponsors etc away from Top14 then cap would become meaningless.  That's nto to say that all sides would be on limitless money for players - but that those few that could expend big, would be allowed to do so.  Pure Professionalism beating Blazeresque Unionism Wink


You may think you're right, but that ain't the same as you are right. In a world of conjecture and theorising, everyone is right, and potentially, horribly wrong.

Look at what is happening in Premiership currently with the proposed cap, and the reaction of various clubs to it, and increased revenues. Guardian has an interesting commentary on it today in light of Messer Allardyce's greasy fumblings.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by SecretFly on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:30 pm

W'orld Rugby Regulations demanded it.'

I like the sound of that - nice ring to it.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Recwatcher16 on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:32 pm

Pure Professionalism beating Blazeresque Unionism - best phrase of the day.
Surprised this thread is still going, do those that actually think a Union controlled Pro12 will actually compete in the long term, really really believe that ??

Pretty sure the Unions accept the reality of falling behind under the current model, despite having far more current test players in their closed shop league. They really do need to get their act together and now, given that they cannot rely on a greater share of Euro income.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:32 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:Pure Professionalism beating Blazeresque Unionism - best phrase of the day.
Surprised this thread is still going, do those that actually think a Union controlled Pro12 will actually compete in the long term, really really believe that ??

Pretty sure the Unions accept the reality of falling behind under the current model, despite having far more current test players in their closed shop league. They really do need to get their act together and now, given that they cannot rely on a greater share of Euro income.

^ In one ^
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by SecretFly on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:35 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:Pure Professionalism beating Blazeresque Unionism - best phrase of the day.
Surprised this thread is still going, do those that actually think a Union controlled Pro12 will actually compete in the long term, really really believe that ??

Pretty sure the Unions accept the reality of falling behind under the current model, despite having far more current test players in their closed shop league. They really do need to get their act together and now, given that they cannot rely on a greater share of Euro income.

Thanks for that sobering rap on the knuckles, Rec OK   That'll learn us.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:39 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:Pure Professionalism beating Blazeresque Unionism - best phrase of the day.
Surprised this thread is still going, do those that actually think a Union controlled Pro12 will actually compete in the long term, really really believe that ??

Pretty sure the Unions accept the reality of falling behind under the current model, despite having far more current test players in their closed shop league. They really do need to get their act together and now, given that they cannot rely on a greater share of Euro income.

^ In one ^

Rec meet phill soon his team will be competing in your league. Then when they still don't win anything brace yourself for the constant complaints how the league is biased.
It's good fun to be honest. Keeps you entertained

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by wolfball on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:40 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:Pure Professionalism beating Blazeresque Unionism - best phrase of the day.
Surprised this thread is still going, do those that actually think a Union controlled Pro12 will actually compete in the long term, really really believe that ??

Pretty sure the Unions accept the reality of falling behind under the current model, despite having far more current test players in their closed shop league. They really do need to get their act together and now, given that they cannot rely on a greater share of Euro income.

The provinces can ONLY compete in the long term with union control unless the financial circumstances radicly change in the pro12 as we are talking about limits of literal population. Making Munster 100% private is not going to cook up a couple million more cork/limerick men buying tv subscriptions unless some rich hoor comes in and literally pours a never ending stream of funds into the team. Only by the pro12 having more money flow in could non-union irish teams ever occur, and that can only be done by having a broader market base, either through development of italy as the only non developed pro12 tv market or a new countries involvement (USA/SA/Canada/Spain typically quoted). Without a larger PRO12 market union control or private control makes little difference in the long run.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:40 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Yes, The Sunday Independent ran with a report on 1 May saying the provinces would be 'lobbed' €500k each this year and the same again in 2017.  

I'm not sure if journalists are not listening properly or if actual additional monies for salaries and monies for other development purposes are being being cobbled together.  The IRFU has made clear that it is going to invest more money into the development pathways - at academy and club level and gave a clear figure against that at annual report publication.  

The IRFU published three releases at this time - you can read them on irish rugby.ie , including the one about an additional €1m between four provinces to help them compete on player salaries - here http://www.irishrugby.ie/mobile/provincial/37757.php

It must be me, but the figures in the link you provided don't add up.

In fairness, it's not the most clearly written.  And I may have added to the confusion about the 250k each for the 2015/2016 season.  Apologies.
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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by SecretFly on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:51 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Look at what is happening in Premiership currently with the proposed cap, and the reaction of various clubs to it, and increased revenues.  Guardian has an interesting commentary on it today in light of Messer Allardyce's greasy fumblings.  

If it were to be negotiated - a Hard as Nails per team cap (affordable to all....) I wouldn't mind what blasted competition kicked off.  But of course, the complexity of contracts and 'smart wording' by the kind of finance people that helped Allardyce lose a £3M a year job, there'd be all kinds of contexts, and sub-divisions, and conditions that might see one side argue yet again that their particular Cap shouldn't have to be the very same as the cap of the team down the road.

If we got an agreed Euro cap................... wouldn't that be a dream for all ambitions, both big City-slicker sides and little spud-sides Wink  
Everything would be perfect and we'd have none of these ongoing arguments and threads, if everyone trusted that everyone else wanted a level playing field... but none of us do.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:55 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Then when they still don't win anything brace yourself for the constant complaints how the league is biased.

Nobody is saying the Pro12 is biased, what is being said is that there is no meritocracy. The fact that we have two models in one organisation makes things unfair. I cannot see how people can argue against this.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

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