Three Down, One To Go

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Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 5:17 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37493141

This makes Anayi's words on 'the benefactor model' look even more out of touch.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by wolfball on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Then when they still don't win anything brace yourself for the constant complaints how the league is biased.

Nobody is saying the Pro12 is biased, what is being said is that there is no meritocracy. The fact that we have two models in one organisation makes things unfair. I cannot see how people can argue against this.

So you believe wales/scotland should replicate the IRFU model?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by marty2086 on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 4:58 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

No you don't, you keep saying its obvious but never actually make out how it is when all there ever is simple discussions over its feasibility, with no idea of whats talked about or why it never happens, so nothing is obvious.

Its just you seeing the failure of your fantasy and your obsession with the IRFU leads you to a conclusion

Oh, ffs.

We go through this every time. Multiple ownership of teams in the same competition is not allowed by proper leagues, neither is employment of match officials as colleagues of participants.

This is basic, basic stuff.

Its a case of deja vu all over again

Except for the ones where they are you mean?

Again we have been through it all but you ignore evidence to the contrary

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:00 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Again we have been through it all but you ignore evidence to the contrary

What evidence?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by SecretFly on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:01 pm

wolfball wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Then when they still don't win anything brace yourself for the constant complaints how the league is biased.

Nobody is saying the Pro12 is biased, what is being said is that there is no meritocracy. The fact that we have two models in one organisation makes things unfair. I cannot see how people can argue against this.

So you believe wales/scotland should replicate the IRFU model?

Yes, which is the more successful model and replicate it to even out that unfair field. Logic insist on it.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by marty2086 on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:01 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Again we have been through it all but you ignore evidence to the contrary

What evidence?

That's IT!

You're on the list!!

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:01 pm

wolfball wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Then when they still don't win anything brace yourself for the constant complaints how the league is biased.

Nobody is saying the Pro12 is biased, what is being said is that there is no meritocracy. The fact that we have two models in one organisation makes things unfair. I cannot see how people can argue against this.

So you believe wales/scotland should replicate the IRFU model?

Either/Or.

One or another.

Either way it is not really fair.

We cannot have a league where the one set of officials and teams all come under one umbrella, and others do not. We also cannot have a league where certain teams can leave beyond their means without reprisal and others cannot.

It does not matter what model we chose, the facts are they cannot work together fairly. No matter how good the model is to the unions using it.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Recwatcher16 on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:02 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:Pure Professionalism beating Blazeresque Unionism - best phrase of the day.
Surprised this thread is still going, do those that actually think a Union controlled Pro12 will actually compete in the long term, really really believe that ??

Pretty sure the Unions accept the reality of falling behind under the current model, despite having far more current test players in their closed shop league. They really do need to get their act together and now, given that they cannot rely on a greater share of Euro income.

Thanks for that sobering rap on the knuckles, Rec OK   That'll learn us.

I honestly take no pleasure in it.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:03 pm

marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Again we have been through it all but you ignore evidence to the contrary

What evidence?

That's IT!

You're on the list!!

What on earth does that mean?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:08 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Then when they still don't win anything brace yourself for the constant complaints how the league is biased.

Nobody is saying the Pro12 is biased, what is being said is that there is no meritocracy. The fact that we have two models in one organisation makes things unfair. I cannot see how people can argue against this.

Actually phill has. Repeatedly

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by SecretFly on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:10 pm

Laugh ...and a dead duck.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:25 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Look at what is happening in Premiership currently with the proposed cap, and the reaction of various clubs to it, and increased revenues.  Guardian has an interesting commentary on it today in light of Messer Allardyce's greasy fumblings.  

If it were to be negotiated - a Hard as Nails per team cap (affordable to all....) I wouldn't mind what blasted competition kicked off.  But of course, the complexity of contracts and 'smart wording' by the kind of finance people that helped Allardyce lose a £3M a year job, there'd be all kinds of contexts, and sub-divisions, and conditions that might see one side argue yet again that their particular Cap shouldn't have to be the very same as the cap of the team down the road.

If we got an agreed Euro cap................... wouldn't that be a dream for all ambitions, both big City-slicker sides and little spud-sides  Wink  
Everything would be perfect and we'd have none of these ongoing arguments and threads, if everyone trusted that everyone else wanted a level playing field... but none of us do.

I suppose it would be too Utopian to have one central body paying everyone in the league. Agree a contract with a player, terms and conditions, submit to Contracts and Payments Central, duly processed and approved, cheque arrives in the post each month.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by PhilBB on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:26 pm

Pot Hale wrote:

I suppose it would be too Utopian to have one central body paying everyone in the league.  Agree a contract with a player, terms and conditions, submit to Contracts and Payments Central, duly processed and approved, cheque arrives in the post each month.  

Sounds like an all Irish league.

Or, a dreadful idea.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:31 pm

marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

No you don't, you keep saying its obvious but never actually make out how it is when all there ever is simple discussions over its feasibility, with no idea of whats talked about or why it never happens, so nothing is obvious.

Its just you seeing the failure of your fantasy and your obsession with the IRFU leads you to a conclusion

Oh, ffs.

We go through this every time. Multiple ownership of teams in the same competition is not allowed by proper leagues, neither is employment of match officials as colleagues of participants.

This is basic, basic stuff.

Its a case of deja vu all over again

Except for the ones where they are you mean?

Again we have been through it all but you ignore evidence to the contrary

Dejà vu all over again?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:34 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

I suppose it would be too Utopian to have one central body paying everyone in the league.  Agree a contract with a player, terms and conditions, submit to Contracts and Payments Central, duly processed and approved, cheque arrives in the post each month.  

Sounds like an all Irish league.

Or, a dreadful idea.

Cheers. You were doing fine up until that.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by SecretFly on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:37 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

I suppose it would be too Utopian to have one central body paying everyone in the league.  Agree a contract with a player, terms and conditions, submit to Contracts and Payments Central, duly processed and approved, cheque arrives in the post each month.  

Sounds like an all Irish league.

Or, a dreadful idea.

Of course it would be a dreadful idea - much too fair to be real. It'd be laughed out of court: "So where does our team get an edge when better players want to play for us coz they like our philosophy and the way we play the game, like? How can't we offer them more money to thank them for playing for us instead of someone else?"


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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Don Alfonso on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:48 pm

Presumably if the Pro12 isn't fair because the provinces are being bankrolled by the central body, the Six Nations isn't fair because the IRFU are having to funnel funds that should rightfully be used for the international team into these flailing, failing provincial teams?

There's a certain amount of resources in Ireland - it's a zero-sum game. I think I'll start a thread in January about how the Welsh team should be penalised because they don;t have the same  financial or logistical responsibilities to the regions, and that's the only reason the Welsh have won the Six Nations. Maybe we could get an asterisk put next to their name on the trophy.

If the IRFU could focus unhindered on the international team, the Welsh team would be our lapdog.


Last edited by Don Alfonso on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typed "only" unnecessarily.)

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by wolfball on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:51 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
wolfball wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Then when they still don't win anything brace yourself for the constant complaints how the league is biased.

Nobody is saying the Pro12 is biased, what is being said is that there is no meritocracy. The fact that we have two models in one organisation makes things unfair. I cannot see how people can argue against this.

So you believe wales/scotland should replicate the IRFU model?

Either/Or.

One or another.

Either way it is not really fair.

We cannot have a league where the one set of officials and teams all come under one umbrella, and others do not. We also cannot have a league where certain teams can leave beyond their means without reprisal and others cannot.

It does not matter what model we chose, the facts are they cannot work together fairly. No matter how good the model is to the unions using it.

I am asking you what model YOU would choose.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by SecretFly on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 5:52 pm

Laugh

Never thought of that angle Don. But I'll haunt them with it now.... Cool

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 6:01 pm

wolfball wrote:I am asking you what model YOU would choose.

How can I answer that though ? I suppose I would want the one that is the best for all of us.

I do not know which one that is though, as I have never supported a team under union control, would the Irish model work in Wales ? I do not see why not, but until we use it I would not know. All I know is the way we work now, and it does not work along side the other, not as we are. There needs to be changes for the two models to work together fairly.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Cyril on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 6:02 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

No you don't, you keep saying its obvious but never actually make out how it is when all there ever is simple discussions over its feasibility, with no idea of whats talked about or why it never happens, so nothing is obvious.

Its just you seeing the failure of your fantasy and your obsession with the IRFU leads you to a conclusion

Oh, ffs.

We go through this every time. Multiple ownership of teams in the same competition is not allowed by proper leagues, neither is employment of match officials as colleagues of participants.

This is basic, basic stuff.

Its a case of deja vu all over again

Except for the ones where they are you mean?

Again we have been through it all but you ignore evidence to the contrary

Dejà vu all over again?  
That's the worst kind of deja vu.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 6:09 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
wolfball wrote:I am asking you what model YOU would choose.

How can I answer that though ? I suppose I would want the one that is the best for all of us.

I do not know which one that is though, as I have never supported a team under union control, would the Irish model work in Wales ? I do not see why not, but until we use it I would not know. All I know is the way we work now, and it does not work along side the other, not as we are. There needs to be changes for the two models to work together fairly.

Ok what's stopping the region's getting millions from sugar daddy's? Surely they can find a few and outspend everyone? Only just today Phil told me Cardiff had many millionaires funding them. So just get more then win. The irish aint stopping you

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by SecretFly on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 6:15 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
wolfball wrote:I am asking you what model YOU would choose.

How can I answer that though ? I suppose I would want the one that is the best for all of us.

I do not know which one that is though, as I have never supported a team under union control, would the Irish model work in Wales ? I do not see why not, but until we use it I would not know. All I know is the way we work now, and it does not work along side the other, not as we are. There needs to be changes for the two models to work together fairly.

Hats off to you Lord.  That's an honest open assessment.  Now maybe you could think about it even more and come to a conclusion that Welsh rugby (all of it) MIGHT indeed be better off following a system that was designed to compete with resources of a 5millionish population rather than one of 60M.  

I don't want Welsh rugby to fall apart and disappear - how could anyone that loves rugby want the passionate Welsh to disappear.  So the Welsh need to be like you and at least look at both sides of the coin and think about things deeply.  
We Irish are supposedly the smug side of Pro12, happy with most of it and, within reason, reasonably successful both at Provincial level and International because of the system we have.  So we don't feel the need for change.
The Welsh, by their own words, say they need change.  So think about it as Welsh people.  What model in Reality suits the success of Welsh rugby - all of it?  I genuinely think Welsh rugby would be better off adapting to an Irish (fit for purpose) model than simply four Private run enterprises heading off to the Anglo/Welsh League.  I feel the Welsh would be consumed by such a League with the English.  I might be completely wrong - but it's pretty high on my list for ourselves staying well out of a B&I League.

So maybe more serious thought on the model in Wales might see some of you eventually turn up as enthusiastic champions of change within the Welsh system itself - four WRU teams, with contributions from private concerns with a desire to be involved.  A union safety blanket and private but controlled capital


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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Recwatcher16 on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 6:16 pm

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37508375

Townsend stating all the politically correct mission statements but is he still caught between two stools ? Which is it ? A successful professional Glasgow rugby side or effectively a trials side for the Test team.

For those that say you can have both - perhaps, but fans aren't stupid if they think they really are being sold something half baked, they vote with their feet. Particularly pertinent if there is a tier of historic clubs with a competitive league, that previously represented the top tier, which both Scotland and Wales had previously and are both still vigorously supported.
Glasgow still represents an elitist set up which from a marketing standpoint could be be very attractive to an investor - with its '36 internationals'. Not even the biggest and most evil French sides can boast that roster.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by SecretFly on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 6:28 pm

Rec, you do realise every Nation must put out 15 men on a field when they want to play International?

So you keep saying how many 'Internationals' are on these sides.  Of course one or other of the two Scottish sides would have the majority of Scottish Internationals.  There are only two sides.... they have to construct an International team out of what they have - as the other Pro12 teams do also.

England, on the other hand could line up two decent International senior teams (maybe even three) - if they wanted, with players who right now don't get a look in because the rules say you only can have One Wink

So what's your point?  Having 'Internationals' on you team is a relative point - the quality of those Internationals goes back to the disparity on the International ranking system.  One Nation's top flyhalf, if another Nation's non-selectable.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Recwatcher16 on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 6:37 pm

My observation would be that by having only two elite teams it would be attractive to investors ?

Also, I guess the opportunity for players in one 'club team' to play together against the AB's etc should be fantastic advantage? Although for some reason it doesn't always translate against sides that don't have that opportunity.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by wolfball on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 6:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
wolfball wrote:I am asking you what model YOU would choose.

How can I answer that though ? I suppose I would want the one that is the best for all of us.

I do not know which one that is though, as I have never supported a team under union control, would the Irish model work in Wales ? I do not see why not, but until we use it I would not know. All I know is the way we work now, and it does not work along side the other, not as we are. There needs to be changes for the two models to work together fairly.

Fly is more generous in his answer than I was going to be, but suffice to say, LD you never actually offer answers to the problems you raise. You complain and then when pushed, give vague hand waves as to well there are alot of options, we need to pick one. Which one? Well, there are alot of options, we need to pick one. Which one? Well...... ETC. Have the courage of your convictions and actually say your stance; even if people disagree with you, you will get a fair hearing.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:14 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Ok what's stopping the region's getting millions from sugar daddy's? Surely they can find a few and outspend everyone? Only just today Phil told me Cardiff had many millionaires funding them. So just get more then win. The irish aint stopping you


Seriously, some of you on here need to get that chip off your shoulders. What difference would a sugar daddy make, to being in a league where certain teams and officials are all under one umbrella ? What difference would a sugar daddy make to a team that spends more than what it earns because the union covers the costs ? At least a sugar daddy is spending his own money.

Look I am not knocking the Irish way, it is a good one, and it works for Irish rugby. What does not work though is union controlled and private controlled teams all competing in the same competition.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Munchkin on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:20 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Ok what's stopping the region's getting millions from sugar daddy's? Surely they can find a few and outspend everyone? Only just today Phil told me Cardiff had many millionaires funding them. So just get more then win. The irish aint stopping you


Seriously, some of you on here need to get that chip off your shoulders. What difference would a sugar daddy make, to being in a league where certain teams and officials are all under one umbrella ? What difference would a sugar daddy make to a team that spends more than what it earns because the union covers the costs ? At least a sugar daddy is spending his own money.

Look I am not knocking the Irish way, it is a good one, and it works for Irish rugby. What does not work though is union controlled and private controlled teams all competing in the same competition.

Sexton.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:23 pm

wolfball wrote:Fly is more generous in his answer than I was going to be, but suffice to say, LD you never actually offer answers to the problems you raise. You complain and then when pushed, give vague hand waves as to well there are alot of options, we need to pick one. Which one? Well, there are alot of options, we need to pick one. Which one? Well...... ETC. Have the courage of your convictions and actually say your stance; even if people disagree with you, you will get a fair hearing.

Again, another member with a chip on his shoulder. Anyone who knows me on here knows I have given answers to the questions I raise, especially about the situation with the officials.

I want a centrally controlled refereeing team, all employed by the Pro12, all under the Pro12 umbrella. I also would like to see a salary cap in the Pro12 akin to what the teams can afford, so teams like Munster cannot operate with such debt levels, if they truly have that debt, and Connacht and Edinburgh do not get a budget bigger than what they generate. Please do not tell me the Irish teams work under a sort of salary cap due to the restrictions on NIQ players, that is a non answer. These are all advantages/conflicts that are spurned from union control.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:26 pm

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Ok what's stopping the region's getting millions from sugar daddy's? Surely they can find a few and outspend everyone? Only just today Phil told me Cardiff had many millionaires funding them. So just get more then win. The irish aint stopping you


Seriously, some of you on here need to get that chip off your shoulders. What difference would a sugar daddy make, to being in a league where certain teams and officials are all under one umbrella ? What difference would a sugar daddy make to a team that spends more than what it earns because the union covers the costs ? At least a sugar daddy is spending his own money.

Look I am not knocking the Irish way, it is a good one, and it works for Irish rugby. What does not work though is union controlled and private controlled teams all competing in the same competition.

Sexton.

And of what relevance is he ?

There are still teams and officials all under one umbrella. It is an opinion I have that takes the meritocracy from our league.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Munchkin on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:29 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Ok what's stopping the region's getting millions from sugar daddy's? Surely they can find a few and outspend everyone? Only just today Phil told me Cardiff had many millionaires funding them. So just get more then win. The irish aint stopping you


Seriously, some of you on here need to get that chip off your shoulders. What difference would a sugar daddy make, to being in a league where certain teams and officials are all under one umbrella ? What difference would a sugar daddy make to a team that spends more than what it earns because the union covers the costs ? At least a sugar daddy is spending his own money.

Look I am not knocking the Irish way, it is a good one, and it works for Irish rugby. What does not work though is union controlled and private controlled teams all competing in the same competition.

Sexton.

And of what relevance is he ?

There are still teams and officials all under one umbrella. It is an opinion I have that takes the meritocracy from our league.

You asked what difference would a sugar daddy make to a team (I presumed under IRFU control), and I gave you an example of how a sugar daddy can make a huge difference.

I'm pretty sure you see the relevance.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by asoreleftshoulder on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:33 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Ok what's stopping the region's getting millions from sugar daddy's? Surely they can find a few and outspend everyone? Only just today Phil told me Cardiff had many millionaires funding them. So just get more then win. The irish aint stopping you


Seriously, some of you on here need to get that chip off your shoulders. What difference would a sugar daddy make, to being in a league where certain teams and officials are all under one umbrella ? What difference would a sugar daddy make to a team that spends more than what it earns because the union covers the costs ? At least a sugar daddy is spending his own money.

Look I am not knocking the Irish way, it is a good one, and it works for Irish rugby. What does not work though is union controlled and private controlled teams all competing in the same competition.

A sugar daddy would be the exact same as a Union in this instance,he would allow a team to spend more than it earns because he covers the cost.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:35 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Ok what's stopping the region's getting millions from sugar daddy's? Surely they can find a few and outspend everyone? Only just today Phil told me Cardiff had many millionaires funding them. So just get more then win. The irish aint stopping you


Seriously, some of you on here need to get that chip off your shoulders. What difference would a sugar daddy make, to being in a league where certain teams and officials are all under one umbrella ? What difference would a sugar daddy make to a team that spends more than what it earns because the union covers the costs ? At least a sugar daddy is spending his own money.

Look I am not knocking the Irish way, it is a good one, and it works for Irish rugby. What does not work though is union controlled and private controlled teams all competing in the same competition.

The point is people claiming the province's can live beyond there means (they can't by the way) is no different to a sugar daddy pumping mullions into a club. Yet it's ok one way but wrong the other way.
I have no problem with the welsh regions, and definitely have no chip on my shoulder, but I do find it a little annoying when people claim the irfu way is unfair yet a multi millionaire spunking cash into a club is fine.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:39 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Ok what's stopping the region's getting millions from sugar daddy's? Surely they can find a few and outspend everyone? Only just today Phil told me Cardiff had many millionaires funding them. So just get more then win. The irish aint stopping you


Seriously, some of you on here need to get that chip off your shoulders. What difference would a sugar daddy make, to being in a league where certain teams and officials are all under one umbrella ? What difference would a sugar daddy make to a team that spends more than what it earns because the union covers the costs ? At least a sugar daddy is spending his own money.

Look I am not knocking the Irish way, it is a good one, and it works for Irish rugby. What does not work though is union controlled and private controlled teams all competing in the same competition.

Sexton.

And of what relevance is he ?

There are still teams and officials all under one umbrella. It is an opinion I have that takes the meritocracy from our league.

So are you accusing the teams and officials of collusion?
That's a mighty big accusations

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Munchkin on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:45 pm




It's all a big conspiracy! o0



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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:46 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Ok what's stopping the region's getting millions from sugar daddy's? Surely they can find a few and outspend everyone? Only just today Phil told me Cardiff had many millionaires funding them. So just get more then win. The irish aint stopping you


Seriously, some of you on here need to get that chip off your shoulders. What difference would a sugar daddy make, to being in a league where certain teams and officials are all under one umbrella ? What difference would a sugar daddy make to a team that spends more than what it earns because the union covers the costs ? At least a sugar daddy is spending his own money.

Look I am not knocking the Irish way, it is a good one, and it works for Irish rugby. What does not work though is union controlled and private controlled teams all competing in the same competition.

A sugar daddy  would be the exact same as a Union in this instance,he would allow a team to spend more than it earns because he covers the cost.

At least it would be his own money, his own hard earned coin being on HIS new hobby. All his own risks, and all in one club. That's the difference, he would be one owner, of one club, not one owner of multiple clubs. Look, I am not knocking the Irish model, it works for you, but it does not work, as it stands along side privately owned clubs.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Munchkin on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Ok what's stopping the region's getting millions from sugar daddy's? Surely they can find a few and outspend everyone? Only just today Phil told me Cardiff had many millionaires funding them. So just get more then win. The irish aint stopping you


Seriously, some of you on here need to get that chip off your shoulders. What difference would a sugar daddy make, to being in a league where certain teams and officials are all under one umbrella ? What difference would a sugar daddy make to a team that spends more than what it earns because the union covers the costs ? At least a sugar daddy is spending his own money.

Look I am not knocking the Irish way, it is a good one, and it works for Irish rugby. What does not work though is union controlled and private controlled teams all competing in the same competition.

A sugar daddy  would be the exact same as a Union in this instance,he would allow a team to spend more than it earns because he covers the cost.

At least it would be his own money, his own hard earned coin being on HIS new hobby. All his own risks, and all in one club. That's the difference, he would be one owner, of one club, not one owner of multiple clubs. Look, I am not knocking the Irish model, it works for you, but it does not work, as it stands along side privately owned clubs.

In what way does it not work?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:49 pm

carpet baboon wrote: I do find it a little annoying when people claim the irfu way is unfair

OK, time to wind this in. Not once have I said the Irish way is unfair, in fact I have said it is a good model, what I have said is, that it is unfair alongside privately owned clubs. After all, who are the clubs competing against ? Other clubs, or a whole union ?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by wolfball on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:50 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
wolfball wrote:Fly is more generous in his answer than I was going to be, but suffice to say, LD you never actually offer answers to the problems you raise. You complain and then when pushed, give vague hand waves as to well there are alot of options, we need to pick one. Which one? Well, there are alot of options, we need to pick one. Which one? Well...... ETC. Have the courage of your convictions and actually say your stance; even if people disagree with you, you will get a fair hearing.

Again, another member with a chip on his shoulder. Anyone who knows me on here knows I have given answers to the questions I raise, especially about the situation with the officials.

I want a centrally controlled refereeing team, all employed by the Pro12, all under the Pro12 umbrella. I also would like to see a salary cap in the Pro12 akin to what the teams can afford, so teams like Munster cannot operate with such debt levels, if they truly have that debt, and Connacht and Edinburgh do not get a budget bigger than what they generate. Please do not tell me the Irish teams work under a sort of salary cap due to the restrictions on NIQ players, that is a non answer. These are all advantages/conflicts that are spurned from union control.

Fair points but referees and salary caps have been discussed elsewhere and aren't what anyone else is on about here right now. Regarding the actual control of teams, do you want the IRFU model for all of the PRO12, the PRL model or some other model? That is what is being discussed and which you seem scared to commit to.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Munchkin on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:51 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote: I do find it a little annoying when people claim the irfu way is unfair

OK, time to wind this in. Not once have I said the Irish way is unfair, in fact I have said it is a good model, what I have said is, that it is unfair alongside privately owned clubs. After all, who are the clubs competing against ? Other clubs, or a whole union ?


Tell me how the Irish model doesn't work, first. Please Smile

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:53 pm

carpet baboon wrote:So are you accusing the teams and officials of collusion?
That's a mighty big accusations

Munchkin wrote:It's all a big conspiracy! o0

OK I'm out.

There is no decent debate to be had here. To think, this could have been a good talking point. I am not here to be insulted, so I'm off before it goes that way.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Munchkin on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:54 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:So are you accusing the teams and officials of collusion?
That's a mighty big accusations

Munchkin wrote:It's all a big conspiracy! o0

OK I'm out.

There is no decent debate to be had here. To think, this could have been a good talking point. I am not here to be insulted, so I'm off before it goes that way.

So you can't answer my question and need an excuse to run....


Ok, Byeeee Very Happy

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by wolfball on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:55 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:So are you accusing the teams and officials of collusion?
That's a mighty big accusations

Munchkin wrote:It's all a big conspiracy! o0

OK I'm out.

There is no decent debate to be had here. To think, this could have been a good talking point. I am not here to be insulted, so I'm off before it goes that way.

As ever you run away once you are asked to actually back up what you say. And you may want to learn what an actual insult is, its a big hard world out there.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:57 pm

wolfball wrote:Fair points but referees and salary caps have been discussed elsewhere and aren't what anyone else is on about here right now. Regarding the actual control of teams, do you want the IRFU model for all of the PRO12, the PRL model or some other model? That is what is being discussed and which you seem scared to commit to.

Please, stop trying to win the internet, there is no need. I told you I cannot answer, because I honestly do not know what the best way is. I am not scarred to commit to anything, I honestly just do not know the answer, and to be honest neither would anybody else, who are we to say which model is better than the other ?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by Munchkin on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 8:58 pm

Ok, so in what way does the Irish model not work?

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by wolfball on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:01 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
wolfball wrote:Fair points but referees and salary caps have been discussed elsewhere and aren't what anyone else is on about here right now. Regarding the actual control of teams, do you want the IRFU model for all of the PRO12, the PRL model or some other model? That is what is being discussed and which you seem scared to commit to.

Please, stop trying to win the internet, there is no need. I told you I cannot answer, because I honestly do not know what the best way is. I am not scarred to commit to anything, I honestly just do not know the answer, and to be honest neither would anybody else, who are we to say which model is better than the other ?

Ok, fair enough. Just realise that when you attack a system and offer no actual alternative the attack lacks... heft. For my part, I agree with you on referees and disagree slightly on salary caps. And think that the current system is pretty damn unfair to the IRFU but it shall soldier on.

And regarding winning the internet... Very Happy


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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by asoreleftshoulder on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:01 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Ok what's stopping the region's getting millions from sugar daddy's? Surely they can find a few and outspend everyone? Only just today Phil told me Cardiff had many millionaires funding them. So just get more then win. The irish aint stopping you


Seriously, some of you on here need to get that chip off your shoulders. What difference would a sugar daddy make, to being in a league where certain teams and officials are all under one umbrella ? What difference would a sugar daddy make to a team that spends more than what it earns because the union covers the costs ? At least a sugar daddy is spending his own money.

Look I am not knocking the Irish way, it is a good one, and it works for Irish rugby. What does not work though is union controlled and private controlled teams all competing in the same competition.

A sugar daddy  would be the exact same as a Union in this instance,he would allow a team to spend more than it earns because he covers the cost.

At least it would be his own money, his own hard earned coin being on HIS new hobby. All his own risks, and all in one club. That's the difference, he would be one owner, of one club, not one owner of multiple clubs. Look, I am not knocking the Irish model, it works for you, but it does not work, as it stands along side privately owned clubs.

i really don't see the difference,why does the source of the money matter?I honestly can't grasp why it matters so much to you.The provinces have benefits from our model but we also have restrictions that the regions don't. TheIf some benefactor was supplying Leinster with the exact same amount of money they now get from the IRFU how would the league suddenly become better.

I get the ref arguments,the league has work to do on that front,it is at least attempting to address the issue but it's going to take time and I can understand the frustration,however the governance issue just doesn't make sense to me.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 9:41 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote: I do find it a little annoying when people claim the irfu way is unfair

OK, time to wind this in. Not once have I said the Irish way is unfair, in fact I have said it is a good model, what I have said is, that it is unfair alongside privately owned clubs. After all, who are the clubs competing against ? Other clubs, or a whole union ?

So you think the irfu clubs and get together and decide who will win? For the benefit of the irfu? And the players are happy about this? Being told when they can win and when they have to loose? As that's what your insinuating when you say it's not fair.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by marty2086 on Thu 29 Sep 2016, 10:26 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Again we have been through it all but you ignore evidence to the contrary

What evidence?

That's IT!

You're on the list!!

What on earth does that mean?

That means you're on the list

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 30 Sep 2016, 7:52 am

wolfball wrote:Ok, fair enough. Just realise that when you attack a system and offer no actual alternative the attack lacks... heft.

You see, this is everything that is wrong with this place, can somebody please point me out as to where I have attacked any system ? Also I have given my opinions on how the two systems can work together, this type of thing is symptomatic of the Irish psyche on here. You cannot debate with them as they turn everything personal.

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Re: Three Down, One To Go

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