Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

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Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by PhilBB on Tue 04 Oct 2016, 8:46 am

First topic message reminder :

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk/analysis/welsh_vs_irish_victories.php

There's a graphical representation of the effect of Roger Lewis. There's a lovely divide from 2003-10 and 2010 onwards. All thanks to the 2009 Participation Agreement.

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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 8:34 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Yep, Sterling work Pot. Nice to see another 606 myth put to bed. And then we have the evidence that the WRU act as Bank to the Regions. Good that they do, but maybe those that accused the IRFU as acting as a Bank for the Provinces (just one of the reasons it was all so unfair on the Regions ..... allegedly ) will now come to realise that as one finger points forward, three are pointing back.

I'm by no means an expert on any of these matters.  And not an accountant.  But I do run businesses and I regularly transact sterling/euro amounts every month so have some idea about rates, etc.

I don't think that there was a myth per se.    But it would certainly appear that there is a disparity in the amount of Competition income each Union receives from the same competitions.  A fair expectation given the overall performances of the Irish provinces in PRO12 and in Europe would be that the IRFU would receive more money, not less, or even par amounts.   In the figures above, you can see this occurred in one year 2012, where the amount of money received by the IRFU was greater than what WRU received.  

The foreign exchange rates I've used are from historical forex sites which detail exchange rate on any given day or range of days and then gives you an average since we don't know when specific monies were transacted.   The WRU accounts state that they have foreign exchange risks as part of their business operations and where necessary to mitigate that, they buy forward contracts which would give them a guaranteed rate (albeit lower than market rate).  However, they say they had no risks in the last year, and it was Nil in 2015 as well.  Thus it's likely they bought at best market rates where any forex was required.   

Of course, it's entirely possible that Celtic Rugby has sterling accounts as part of its operation since it would have regular sterling suppliers such as BBC Wales, NI and Alba, so there may have been no need to convert at all.  Hence I picked an average for the WRU financial year in which the monies arose. 


I think it's over-reaching to say that the WRU acts as Bank to the Regions.  And somewhat provocative.  warning

As Phil referred earlier, the short-term loans issued by the WRU under their RCF (Revolving Credit Facility) to the Regions is for three fixed amounts over three years - 1.3m, 1.3m and 1.0m.  The loans are then due to be paid back by the Regions in the following years.

It also serves as guarantor on small amounts that the Regions receive as loans e.g. in this year's accounts:

"The Company has guaranteed the performance of the four Regions in respect of loans that the Regions have received from Barclays Bank PLC. The amounts guaranteed are £0.5m (2015: nil)."

They're not huge amounts and the Report clearly references Barclays as the regions' bankers.  They also are bankers for WRU.

The myth being that the Regions broadcasting revenue is split equally among the Welsh, Scottish and Irish. The WRU Bank was a dig at those who claim the same for the IRFU.

Good work, anyway. It takes time to search through things, and argue the different points made Hug
OK

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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by PhilBB on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 8:45 am

Munchkin wrote:
It is simple.


It's so simple that you've missed something rather crucial: when the payments are monthly and in Euro, you'll need 12 exchange rates to compare the GBP total to the annual Euro total. You'll also need to know the monthly breakdown in order to use the 12 rates.

Please don't try to be smart.

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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by PhilBB on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 8:46 am

Pot Hale wrote:
And you agree there is a disparity.  Do you accept that the WRU received more Competition Income than the IRFU did?

Last year? Yes. Whether that is to do with the performance of the NGD in the Mickey Mouse Cup, I don't know. Do you?

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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by PhilBB on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 8:46 am

Pot Hale wrote:Hmmm.  No answer.

If you're looking for an immediate answer, please tweet me. I don't spend all day here waiting to teach basic sums to Ulstermen, sorry.

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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by PhilBB on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 8:48 am

Pot Hale wrote:Competition Income 2011-2016

Year - WRU CI -FOREX Avg - Euro equiv -  IRFU CI  - Difference €
 
2011 9.1m    @1.167459 - €10.624m  - 9.324m -   1.304m
2012 9.2m    @1.183672 - €10.890m  - 11.137m - (0.247m)
2013 9.2m    @1.213918 - €11.168m - 10.763m -  0.405m
2014 8.861m @1.198366 - €10.619m - 10.335m -  0.284m
2015 8.129m @1.314412 - €10.685m - 9.707m -    0.978m
2016 9.7m -  @1.337564 - €12.974m - 10.585m -   2.389m

Total £54.19m -                 €66.96m  - €61.851m - €5.109m

Again, why are you ignoring the LV= Cup income?


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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by PhilBB on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 8:52 am

carpet baboon wrote:It's amazing at how angry people can become when there team aint won anything  in years

Lovely irony in this when you're aiming at me instead of the two Ulster boys who should be the target. You clearly don't know your rugby history.

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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by PhilBB on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 8:53 am

Munchkin wrote:Yep, Sterling work Pot. Nice to see another 606 myth put to bed. And then we have the evidence that the WRU act as Bank to the Regions. Good that they do, but maybe those that accused the IRFU as acting as a Bank for the Provinces (just one of the reasons it was all so unfair on the Regions ..... allegedly ) will now come to realise that as one finger points forward, three are pointing back.

Wonderful misrepresentation, fair play. Childlike, but wonderful.

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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by PhilBB on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 8:54 am

Pot Hale wrote:
I don't think that there was a myth per se.    But it would certainly appear that there is a disparity in the amount of Competition income each Union receives from the same competitions.

They are not the same competitions, that's why.

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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by PhilBB on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 8:55 am

Pot Hale wrote:
The foreign exchange rates I've used are from historical forex sites which detail exchange rate on any given day or range of days and then gives you an average since we don't know when specific monies were transacted.   The WRU accounts state that they have foreign exchange risks as part of their business operations and where necessary to mitigate that, they buy forward contracts which would give them a guaranteed rate (albeit lower than market rate).  However, they say they had no risks in the last year, and it was Nil in 2015 as well.  Thus it's likely they bought at best market rates where any forex was required.   

Please could you explain to me how the WRU are buying Euro in the context of being paid out by a Swiss based company. I'm not quite catching up with that one, sorry.

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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by PhilBB on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 8:56 am

Pot Hale wrote:
I think it's over-reaching to say that the WRU acts as Bank to the Regions.  And somewhat provocative.  warning

No way. Really? Well, well.

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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by PhilBB on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 8:57 am

Munchkin wrote:

The myth being that the Regions broadcasting revenue is split equally among the Welsh, Scottish and Irish. The WRU Bank was a dig at those who claim the same for the IRFU.

Good work, anyway. It takes time to search through things, and argue the different points made Hug

Erm, that 'myth' hasn't been disproved. All that has happened is that an unequal number of competitions has been compared for competition income.

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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by SecretFly on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 9:41 am

I love the smell of accounts in the morning.

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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 9:57 am

Pot Hale wrote:WRU Annual Reports 2014, 2015, 2016

"Competition income represents amounts received from European Professional Club Rugby (“EPCR”), and Celtic Rugby Limited in consideration for the participation of teams nominated by the Group in the respective tournaments of those entities. To the extent that the nominated teams have participated in those tournaments there is, under the terms of the participation agreements with the nominated teams, an obligation on the Group to remit any competition income, less any costs incurred by the Group in respect of the competitions, to them."

WRU Annual Reports 2015 & 2016

"(iii) Acting as principal in respect of competition income

Assessing whether the Group acts as agent or principal in the receipt of competition incomes requires judgment. The Group receives revenue from the organisers of competitions in which the Regions participate, namely the Pro 12, the European Champions Cup and the European Challenge Cup. The net revenue is passed on to the Regions. The Group assessed the factors presented in the respective agreements with the Regions and the competition providers and concluded that its ability to establish the commercial returns and to perform its contractual commitment to determine the competition participants provided sufficient evidence that it is the principal in the transaction with the relevant competition provider."

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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 10:13 am

PhilBB wrote:

Again, why are you ignoring the LV= Cup income?

See notes from Annual Reports about what monies are in Competition Income.

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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:17 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
And you agree there is a disparity.  Do you accept that the WRU received more Competition Income than the IRFU did?

Last year? Yes. Whether that is to do with the performance of the NGD in the Mickey Mouse Cup, I don't know. Do you?

The five years that I've cited in the above table.

Since we've established that it's nothing to do with the revenues from the LV Cup, then we can set that aside as a possible reason.
Competition performances? Yes, they make a difference for both unions. Dragons were also Challenge Cup semi-finalists in 14/15 as well as 15/16 so that on its own in 15/16 would not explain the greater amount of Competition Income for WRU over the years I've outlined above.
And performances in the PRO12 also affect Competition Income.

2015/16
Challenge Cup
Dragons reached semi-final
Connacht reached quarter-finals
Cardiff in pool stages.

Champions Cup
Ulster were 2nd in their pool
Ospreys were 3rd in their pool
Munster were 3rd in their pool
Scarlets were 4th in their pool
Leinster were 4th in their pool.

PRO12
All four provinces in Top 6.
Leinster and Connacht finalists
Connacht winners

2014/15
Challenge Cup
Dragons reached semis
Cardiff reached quarters
Connacht reached quarters

Champions Cup
Leinster reached semis
Munster, Ospreys & Ulster were 3rd in their pools.

PRO12
Munster, Ulster, Ospreys, Glasgow in playoffs
Glasgow and Ulster finalists
Glasgow winners

2013/14
Challenge Cup
Dragons knocked out at pool stages

Champions Cup
Ospreys 4th in their pool
Cardiff 2nd in pool
Scarlets 3rd in pool
Connacht 3rd in pool
Leinster & Ulster reached quarters
Munster reached semis

PRO12
Leinster, Munster, Ulster & Glasgow in playoffs
Leinster, Ulster finalists
Leinster Winners

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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

Post by Munchkin on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:23 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

The myth being that the Regions broadcasting revenue is split equally among the Welsh, Scottish and Irish. The WRU Bank was a dig at those who claim the same for the IRFU.

Good work, anyway. It takes time to search through things, and argue the different points made Hug

Erm, that 'myth' hasn't been disproved. All that has happened is that an unequal number of competitions has been compared for competition income.

Now you look even more ridiculous, but do keep going. It's entertaining, in an odd way o0

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Re: Historic Results post 2003 - IRFU Branches v PRW

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