IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

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IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 3:50 am

Ok - don't say you weren't warned.

If you've no interest in spreadsheets, balance sheets, profit and loss accounts, annual reports, etc., then this topic is not for you. (I'm looking at you, Fly)

If on the other hand, there are Irish fans who want to know more about how finances in Irish rugby work, courtesy of published Annual Reports, media articles and mutterings, AGMs, then feel free to join in.

The intent behind this Topic is  for contributors to talk through/explain or ask questions about how different aspects of the finances in Irish rugby operate from grassroots through to National Team.  

That's just to kick things off.  Feel free to contribute.


Last edited by Pot Hale on Thu 13 Oct 2016, 9:16 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by SecretFly on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 10:23 am

Laugh

I do secretly read some of it, Pot...and some of it can be quite edifying Wink  It's just that my genes keep protesting and telling me I'm arty (i.e. brainless) and not mata, matterma.... mateematic................ good at sums.

But yes...I'd like some clear, direct answers to the questions you set.  It would end a ton of arguments (not).  So come on closet accountants, financiers and number crunchers - cut out all the evasive excess paperwork and weaving, sly complexity (in brief cut out all the overly-detailed tricks accountants use to fiddle their clients books Wink ) and find some clear and direct numbers and answers that are easy to compare.
This should be an Easy-to-Compare Fact Sheet of Spending (for Idiots...and Fly)   Tally Ho, chaps. OK

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 10:45 am

The accounts for the 3 southern provinces are available for 2.50 each

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265198&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265197&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265196&type=C

And Ulsters are here

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/branch/annual-report.php#.V_4GcKQm6M8

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 11:03 am

marty2086 wrote:The accounts for the 3 southern provinces are available for 2.50 each

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265198&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265197&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265196&type=C

And Ulsters are here

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/branch/annual-report.php#.V_4GcKQm6M8

Marty when I click on the provincial links you provided, it just brings me to the CRO's search page. What are the company names you looked up? I use another info provider for this kind of look-up but need to know the names of the relevant entites to check.

Cheers.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Notch on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 11:16 am

Looking forward to reading this thread- obviously can't be arsed to do my own research on something I find to be as dull as ditchwater so will be interesting to read about figures from someone who doesn't have an agenda!

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Notch on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 11:16 am

Good work Pot OK

SecretFly wrote:This should be an Easy-to-Compare Fact Sheet of Spending (for Idiots...and Fly)   Tally Ho, chaps. OK

And Notch! Smile

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 11:19 am

Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:The accounts for the 3 southern provinces are available for 2.50 each

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265198&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265197&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265196&type=C

And Ulsters are here

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/branch/annual-report.php#.V_4GcKQm6M8

Marty when I click on the provincial links you provided, it just brings me to the CRO's search page.  What are the company names you looked up?  I use another info provider for this kind of look-up but need to know the names of the relevant entites to check.

Cheers.

Strange!

Its just Leinster Rugby, Connacht Rugby and Munster Rugby, the registered address is all Lansdowne Road

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 11:46 am

marty2086 wrote:Strange!

Its just Leinster Rugby, Connacht Rugby and Munster Rugby, the registered address is all Lansdowne Road

I cannot tell whether you are being ironic, or sarcastic. Please tell me it is one of those two.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 11:48 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Strange!

Its just Leinster Rugby, Connacht Rugby and Munster Rugby, the registered address is all Lansdowne Road

I cannot tell whether you are being ironic, or sarcastic. Please tell me it is one of those two.

Ermmm, what?

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by SecretFly on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 11:48 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Strange!

Its just Leinster Rugby, Connacht Rugby and Munster Rugby, the registered address is all Lansdowne Road

I cannot tell whether you are being ironic, or sarcastic. Please tell me it is one of those two.

Strange as in: "It worked for me, Pot Headscratch "

No?

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 11:49 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Strange!

Its just Leinster Rugby, Connacht Rugby and Munster Rugby, the registered address is all Lansdowne Road

I cannot tell whether you are being ironic, or sarcastic. Please tell me it is one of those two.

Ermmm, what?

You do know why that is don't you ?

You have been arguing with Phil about it for long enough.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 11:51 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Strange!

Its just Leinster Rugby, Connacht Rugby and Munster Rugby, the registered address is all Lansdowne Road

I cannot tell whether you are being ironic, or sarcastic. Please tell me it is one of those two.

Ermmm, what?

You do know why that is don't you ?

Maybe you would like to elaborate?

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by SecretFly on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 11:51 am

BTW everyone. Keep this Thread Clean! No getting distracted by petty arguments that go on and on and on and forget the original reason.

Figures and cold facts is what we want - no bitchin', bullschidtin' or pistol whippin'.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:01 pm

OK. OK

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Griff on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:08 pm

Notch wrote:Looking forward to reading this thread- obviously can't be arsed to do my own research on something I find to be as dull as ditchwater so will be interesting to read about figures from someone who doesn't have an agenda!

There is definitely an agenda here.  Maybe less of a 'shouty' agenda than Phil.  But the agenda is still clear and appears to be to disprove another poster's interpretation of union accounts. And from everything I've read from both of them I'm still none the wiser about which union spends the most, keeps the most, bankrolls the most.  Not sure we'll ever really know.

But well done for the analysis so far Pot, on the other threads.  It takes time and dedication, and a good dose of patience I imagine. clap


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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by SecretFly on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:20 pm

Griff wrote:
Notch wrote:Looking forward to reading this thread- obviously can't be arsed to do my own research on something I find to be as dull as ditchwater so will be interesting to read about figures from someone who doesn't have an agenda!

There is definitely an agenda here.  Maybe less of a 'shouty' agenda than Phil.  But the agenda is still clear and appears to be to disprove another poster's interpretation of union accounts. And from everything I've read from both of them I'm still none the wiser about which union spends the most, keeps the most, bankrolls the most.  Not sure we'll every really know.

But well done for the analysis so far Pot, on the other threads.  It takes time and dedication, and a good dose of patience I imagine. clap

Join the bit of a queue forming Griff..... that's me, Notch and now you.  Never have I seen so many lists of numbers and subdivisions of incremental profits, and A subtracted by B only if C is present for a half yearly cycle on D divided by E plus factor F at a rate of G in terms of rebates on the loan, f**king H!

What's the f**king final clean numbers people!  Who f**king pays what (when all the sub deductions of f**king I as reflected in the monetary f**king graph J! are factored in) at the end of each f**king Year!

..............................and Thankyou kindly in advance.... Hug Wink


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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:21 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:The accounts for the 3 southern provinces are available for 2.50 each

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265198&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265197&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265196&type=C

And Ulsters are here

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/branch/annual-report.php#.V_4GcKQm6M8

Marty when I click on the provincial links you provided, it just brings me to the CRO's search page.  What are the company names you looked up?  I use another info provider for this kind of look-up but need to know the names of the relevant entites to check.

Cheers.

Strange!

Its just Leinster Rugby, Connacht Rugby and Munster Rugby, the registered address is all Lansdowne Road

Okay - that's what I figured were the names - just wanted to check. They are just protection company names so no one else can use them, I suspect. The branches accounts are not filed with CRO given their structure. They do hold AGMs for their members and financial information is disclosed at these as media reports indicate e.g. http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/22677.php#.V_4b_zKZPjA

If others can find links to AGMs of other branches that would be useful.

Ulster Rugby has a different filing requirement hence why its annual report is published.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:27 pm

Griff wrote:
Notch wrote:Looking forward to reading this thread- obviously can't be arsed to do my own research on something I find to be as dull as ditchwater so will be interesting to read about figures from someone who doesn't have an agenda!

There is definitely an agenda here.  Maybe less of a 'shouty' agenda than Phil.  But the agenda is still clear and appears to be to disprove another poster's interpretation of union accounts. And from everything I've read from both of them I'm still none the wiser about which union spends the most, keeps the most, bankrolls the most.  Not sure we'll ever really know.

But well done for the analysis so far Pot, on the other threads.  It takes time and dedication, and a good dose of patience I imagine. clap

The only 'agenda', Griff, is that having had the discussion about Competition Income in another thread, and saw the response from other posters welcoming the detail is why I thought a new topic would be a good idea.  I've also said, specifically in the OP that it's not about comparing one union's finances with another.  That's a waste of time.  So I think the focus in a topic on IRFU finances should be on IRFU finances.  

Cheers.  Smile


Last edited by Pot Hale on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by profitius on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:37 pm

If someone could translate the accounts to english, I would appreciate it. Google translate doesn't work for accounting.


I heard before that the double entry accounting system was designed to be confusing, to keep the general public bamboozled unless they study it.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:41 pm

profitius wrote:If someone could translate the accounts to english, I would appreciate it. Google translate doesn't work for accounting.


I heard before that the double entry accounting system was designed to be confusing, to keep the general public bamboozled unless they study it.

Very cynical, Prof. Smile The Income and Expenditure sections are relatively straightforward to read. Anything in particular that you couldn't find/work out?

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:45 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:The accounts for the 3 southern provinces are available for 2.50 each

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265198&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265197&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265196&type=C

And Ulsters are here

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/branch/annual-report.php#.V_4GcKQm6M8

Marty when I click on the provincial links you provided, it just brings me to the CRO's search page.  What are the company names you looked up?  I use another info provider for this kind of look-up but need to know the names of the relevant entites to check.

Cheers.

Strange!

Its just Leinster Rugby, Connacht Rugby and Munster Rugby, the registered address is all Lansdowne Road

Okay - that's what I figured were the names - just wanted to check.   They are just protection company names so no one else can use them, I suspect.   The branches accounts are not filed with CRO given their structure.  They do hold AGMs for their members and financial information is disclosed at these as media reports indicate e.g. http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/22677.php#.V_4b_zKZPjA

If others can find links to AGMs of other branches that would be useful.

Ulster Rugby has a different filing requirement hence why its annual report is published.

I thought that initially until I saw the fillings and account details and auditors reports listed with page counts in double digits

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:51 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:The accounts for the 3 southern provinces are available for 2.50 each

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265198&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265197&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265196&type=C

And Ulsters are here

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/branch/annual-report.php#.V_4GcKQm6M8

Marty when I click on the provincial links you provided, it just brings me to the CRO's search page.  What are the company names you looked up?  I use another info provider for this kind of look-up but need to know the names of the relevant entites to check.

Cheers.

Strange!

Its just Leinster Rugby, Connacht Rugby and Munster Rugby, the registered address is all Lansdowne Road

Okay - that's what I figured were the names - just wanted to check.   They are just protection company names so no one else can use them, I suspect.   The branches accounts are not filed with CRO given their structure.  They do hold AGMs for their members and financial information is disclosed at these as media reports indicate e.g. http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/22677.php#.V_4b_zKZPjA

If others can find links to AGMs of other branches that would be useful.

Ulster Rugby has a different filing requirement hence why its annual report is published.

I thought that initially until I saw the fillings and account details and auditors reports listed with page counts in double digits

Yep - and the income & expenditure figures are Nil. It's annoying. I'd heard previously that public members of the Branches get copies of the Annual Accounts but these don't seem to find their way into the general public domain.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by SecretFly on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:52 pm

profitius wrote:If someone could translate the accounts to english, I would appreciate it. Google translate doesn't work for accounting.


I heard before that the double entry accounting system was designed to be confusing, to keep the general public bamboozled unless they study it.

A good spreadsheet is like a skilled political speech. It means what you want it to mean and no two people take the same message from it.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:53 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:The accounts for the 3 southern provinces are available for 2.50 each

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265198&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265197&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265196&type=C

And Ulsters are here

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/branch/annual-report.php#.V_4GcKQm6M8

Marty when I click on the provincial links you provided, it just brings me to the CRO's search page.  What are the company names you looked up?  I use another info provider for this kind of look-up but need to know the names of the relevant entites to check.

Cheers.

Strange!

Its just Leinster Rugby, Connacht Rugby and Munster Rugby, the registered address is all Lansdowne Road

Okay - that's what I figured were the names - just wanted to check.   They are just protection company names so no one else can use them, I suspect.   The branches accounts are not filed with CRO given their structure.  They do hold AGMs for their members and financial information is disclosed at these as media reports indicate e.g. http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/22677.php#.V_4b_zKZPjA

If others can find links to AGMs of other branches that would be useful.

Ulster Rugby has a different filing requirement hence why its annual report is published.

I thought that initially until I saw the fillings and account details and auditors reports listed with page counts in double digits

Yep - and the income & expenditure figures are Nil.  It's annoying.   I'd heard previously that public members of the Branches get copies of the Annual Accounts but these don't seem to find their way into the general public domain.

Erm

A bit of a different approach than used in the UK, I thought they used pretty similar accounting practises

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 1:02 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:The accounts for the 3 southern provinces are available for 2.50 each

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265198&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265197&type=C

https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=265196&type=C

And Ulsters are here

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/branch/annual-report.php#.V_4GcKQm6M8

Marty when I click on the provincial links you provided, it just brings me to the CRO's search page.  What are the company names you looked up?  I use another info provider for this kind of look-up but need to know the names of the relevant entites to check.

Cheers.

Strange!

Its just Leinster Rugby, Connacht Rugby and Munster Rugby, the registered address is all Lansdowne Road

Okay - that's what I figured were the names - just wanted to check.   They are just protection company names so no one else can use them, I suspect.   The branches accounts are not filed with CRO given their structure.  They do hold AGMs for their members and financial information is disclosed at these as media reports indicate e.g. http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/22677.php#.V_4b_zKZPjA

If others can find links to AGMs of other branches that would be useful.

Ulster Rugby has a different filing requirement hence why its annual report is published.

I thought that initially until I saw the fillings and account details and auditors reports listed with page counts in double digits

Yep - and the income & expenditure figures are Nil.  It's annoying.   I'd heard previously that public members of the Branches get copies of the Annual Accounts but these don't seem to find their way into the general public domain.

Erm

A bit of a different approach than used in the UK, I thought they used pretty similar accounting practises

It's the reporting practises/requirements based on the corporate entity in question. Perhaps Ulster Branch can't operate the same way being headquartered in the UK and/or is set up differently.

It certainly is clear about its ambitions and obviously doesn't do the Challenge Cup. Smile

Website: "Ulster Rugby is one of the four professional provincial rugby teams from the island of Ireland. The team compete in the Guinness PRO12 and the European Rugby Champions Cup. "

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 1:31 pm

Just reading the post about the Munster AGM, the figures were all forecast up to June when their year end seems to occur.

It could be they, along with Leinster and Connacht haven't finalised their accounts/reports and we will see them made public soon.

Ulsters report is a new approach and only happened in the last month or two or maybe the other three will follow

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Munchkin on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 1:43 pm

Think the Ulster report was in keeping to UK guidelines though, wasn't it?

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 1:56 pm

No, its the first Ulster have done it

I honestly don't know how or where Ulster are registered

Ulster Rugby Ltd was incorporated in the UK back in 1997 but the only time they filled full accounts was for the u19 World Cup back in 2007, theres no record of them being registered in Dublin

This is Ulsters last set of accounts Companies House have listed

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-prod/docs/ELnG8zCKdWw3Lky__HfKNixQcrvaSwH6AnnxFmDNftM/application-pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=ASIAJXYLMEJHOMT5AYRA&Expires=1476276988&Signature=vCj5ReuRkUZSz3%2FJVmKoNioqnBA%3D&x-amz-security-token=FQoDYXdzEHMaDFYXy2mLyabMZNC%2F9SKcA1TE%2FiwKWQ15mGK%2FXefEyJGxRetYGbteCnK%2F6jSsTBqySAUuWqsTPeNTFD3%2FJC%2BfZXJSDWFZHent7RwLLWUkZMpOR%2B8BVSTSJnEF1K2MdtTLFATcv6beveRs4FQ5NI1S%2FO7FLGn4BP%2B%2FhKNRjAMA6xbE9eLwY2onq3BcQBdUkhM2fJCqau3Qi3O8pfjUpPGPXhEXdVn%2FEW1claUeHWCn7%2FEKVI3o%2BjHGVk50uzlcdTTzBxgopaUVhccoQbVAm2fz2khZFtc7y6twjxu3BIMsaA2SfFZzVMTvHmOahok1XhXZG4%2FTq%2BGBB0ngSVnh4hdNMOpH4olgyCdrY9px1GvLkp9MGxumTmIcnzUsgxdQbCEG4nLTbD5F0IDI6aEbS5RGcbKqpf6IMi2iOU4c4sq6kOhyooQFEPvjOfynTg2J8RxRxGVdQuRlrLQnSwVtXRdxCt9h7%2BDGh17nAgFck%2FC80XOpZiYsAdm%2FlUPoc0GpB4gNQTpy2r%2B51pZr8plKlaPuO3HvwrEKq%2BHJjiecbLzj2LThHkMM7Bsm0dH%2Bbi4o%2BYv4vwU%3D

It could well be that everything flows through the IRFU

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 2:16 pm

IRFU Income & Expenditure - Basics

In the IRFU Annual Reports, the Income and Expenditure section is generally right at the end of the Report and provides the simplest way to get an overview of the finances for that year.   Getting the detail behind some of the numbers then takes a bit of ferreting through the report to find relevant commentary/figures.

Using the latest Annual Report 2015/16, the Income for the IRFU breaks down into these five broad headings:

€40m - Test Matches - Six Nations, Autumn Internationals, RWC, etc
€9m - Commercial Income - sponsors, broadcasters, advertisers, etc
€13m - Deferred Ticket Income - annual portion of the ten-year ticket sales for the Aviva (already spent on construction) and deferred naming rights
€10.5m - Provincial Competition Income - PRO12, European Cups
€3.8m - Other Income - other rugby related income, Revenue grants etc
Total €76m - it's increased year on year over the last 5 years.  Which is a good thing. The test team generate €61m of that so it's the main earner.

However, costs obviously increase too.  The Expenditure breaks down into these broad headings:

€37.6m - Professional Game Costs - all costs related to test matches and provincial matches in PRO12/European Cups including player and management salaries
€7.5m - Elite Player Development - Union costs for Wolfhound/Emerging Ireland, Women's team, 7s, Under 20s, Academies, High Performance Unit
€9.5m - Domestic & Community Rugby
€6.7m - Admin & Overheads - Head Office, salaries, rent, auditors, legals, etc.
€1.7m - Morketing - spin doctors, snake oil merchants, web weavers, etc
€0.9m - Grounds - upkeep, repairs, licenses, etc
€0.32m - Referee costs - George Clancy et al - we love them really!
€7.1m - Depreciation and Amortisation - costs related to joint ventures on stadia and various assets owned by the Union.

Total €71m approx.

Giving a surplus for the year of €5m.  (Down about €2-3m on previous two years.)


Last edited by Pot Hale on Thu 13 Oct 2016, 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by SecretFly on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 2:28 pm

Thanks Pot - so the International total earn is €61m, and Provincial rugby earns the other €15m.    

Is it possible to break down the costs between the two somehow?  Doesn't seem an easy - or even doable - task based on the Headings you give and the inescapable fact that the IRFU own the Provinces.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 3:19 pm

SecretFly wrote:Thanks Pot - so the International total earn is €61m, and Provincial rugby earns the other €15m.    

Is it possible to break down the costs between the two somehow?  Doesn't seem an easy - or even doable - task based on the Headings you give and the inescapable fact that the IRFU own the Provinces.

Provincial earned €10.5m, Fly.  The remaining is made up of things like Car Park income, Grants from Irish Sports Council, etc.

Yes it is possible to break down the costs somewhat where commentary from various Reports shows how much is being spent where.  For example, within the Professional Game Costs of €37.6m, it can be broken down further into amounts for
Player and Management Costs  (which contains allocations to the Provinces) - €35m
National Match costs - €2.5m
National Tours, Camps and Squads. €0.12m - low this year because of no tours with RWC.

The IRFU states that Player and Management Costs "include the costs of the National management and player fees and bonuses together with the Union’s contribution to the cost of the four Provincial teams."

Parsing that definition takes a bit of homework and comparison of different reports in the last 5-6 years.   I'll come back to that.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Sin é on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 6:58 pm

marty2086 wrote:No, its the first Ulster have done it

I honestly don't know how or where Ulster are registered

Ulster Rugby Ltd was incorporated in the UK back in 1997 but the only time they filled full accounts was for the u19 World Cup back in 2007, theres no record of them being registered in Dublin

This is Ulsters last set of accounts Companies House have listed

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-prod/docs/ELnG8zCKdWw3Lky__HfKNixQcrvaSwH6AnnxFmDNftM/application-pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=ASIAJXYLMEJHOMT5AYRA&Expires=1476276988&Signature=vCj5ReuRkUZSz3%2FJVmKoNioqnBA%3D&x-amz-security-token=FQoDYXdzEHMaDFYXy2mLyabMZNC%2F9SKcA1TE%2FiwKWQ15mGK%2FXefEyJGxRetYGbteCnK%2F6jSsTBqySAUuWqsTPeNTFD3%2FJC%2BfZXJSDWFZHent7RwLLWUkZMpOR%2B8BVSTSJnEF1K2MdtTLFATcv6beveRs4FQ5NI1S%2FO7FLGn4BP%2B%2FhKNRjAMA6xbE9eLwY2onq3BcQBdUkhM2fJCqau3Qi3O8pfjUpPGPXhEXdVn%2FEW1claUeHWCn7%2FEKVI3o%2BjHGVk50uzlcdTTzBxgopaUVhccoQbVAm2fz2khZFtc7y6twjxu3BIMsaA2SfFZzVMTvHmOahok1XhXZG4%2FTq%2BGBB0ngSVnh4hdNMOpH4olgyCdrY9px1GvLkp9MGxumTmIcnzUsgxdQbCEG4nLTbD5F0IDI6aEbS5RGcbKqpf6IMi2iOU4c4sq6kOhyooQFEPvjOfynTg2J8RxRxGVdQuRlrLQnSwVtXRdxCt9h7%2BDGh17nAgFck%2FC80XOpZiYsAdm%2FlUPoc0GpB4gNQTpy2r%2B51pZr8plKlaPuO3HvwrEKq%2BHJjiecbLzj2LThHkMM7Bsm0dH%2Bbi4o%2BYv4vwU%3D

It could well be that everything flows through the IRFU

It was most likely changed to receive UK Gov. financial support for Ravenhill Development. There would be very strict guidelines and from previous experience, I know the NI/UK Gov. would only fund activities in NI, whereas Irish Government were not as concerned as to whether grant money for the sport was used for NI.


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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Munchkin on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 7:23 pm

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:No, its the first Ulster have done it

I honestly don't know how or where Ulster are registered

Ulster Rugby Ltd was incorporated in the UK back in 1997 but the only time they filled full accounts was for the u19 World Cup back in 2007, theres no record of them being registered in Dublin

This is Ulsters last set of accounts Companies House have listed

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-prod/docs/ELnG8zCKdWw3Lky__HfKNixQcrvaSwH6AnnxFmDNftM/application-pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=ASIAJXYLMEJHOMT5AYRA&Expires=1476276988&Signature=vCj5ReuRkUZSz3%2FJVmKoNioqnBA%3D&x-amz-security-token=FQoDYXdzEHMaDFYXy2mLyabMZNC%2F9SKcA1TE%2FiwKWQ15mGK%2FXefEyJGxRetYGbteCnK%2F6jSsTBqySAUuWqsTPeNTFD3%2FJC%2BfZXJSDWFZHent7RwLLWUkZMpOR%2B8BVSTSJnEF1K2MdtTLFATcv6beveRs4FQ5NI1S%2FO7FLGn4BP%2B%2FhKNRjAMA6xbE9eLwY2onq3BcQBdUkhM2fJCqau3Qi3O8pfjUpPGPXhEXdVn%2FEW1claUeHWCn7%2FEKVI3o%2BjHGVk50uzlcdTTzBxgopaUVhccoQbVAm2fz2khZFtc7y6twjxu3BIMsaA2SfFZzVMTvHmOahok1XhXZG4%2FTq%2BGBB0ngSVnh4hdNMOpH4olgyCdrY9px1GvLkp9MGxumTmIcnzUsgxdQbCEG4nLTbD5F0IDI6aEbS5RGcbKqpf6IMi2iOU4c4sq6kOhyooQFEPvjOfynTg2J8RxRxGVdQuRlrLQnSwVtXRdxCt9h7%2BDGh17nAgFck%2FC80XOpZiYsAdm%2FlUPoc0GpB4gNQTpy2r%2B51pZr8plKlaPuO3HvwrEKq%2BHJjiecbLzj2LThHkMM7Bsm0dH%2Bbi4o%2BYv4vwU%3D

It could well be that everything flows through the IRFU

It was most likely changed to receive UK Gov. financial support for Ravenhill Development. There would be very strict guidelines and from previous experience, I know the NI/UK Gov. would only fund activities in NI, whereas Irish Government were not as concerned as to whether grant money for the sport was used for NI.


It was essential you told us that. Thanks Hug

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Notch on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 7:31 pm

That makes complete sense given the personalities involved in both governments. The Irish Government has always been willing to invest in projects North of the Border if it suited their long term strategy for improving cross-border relations and relations with the UK in general. Much less so since the financial crisis but they still put money into Nothern Ireland when it suits. The NI Government, on the other hand, is led by the DUP who aren't exactly the most conciliatory or open-minded people working in politics today!!

The funniest thing about it is that the Irish Government has given money to the Orange Order in the name of peace-building enterprises and some Orangemen have tried to put some twisted logic forward about why they are justified in keeping it even though it comes from their 'enemies' Very Happy

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Munchkin on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 8:11 pm

I read somewhere that the NIO is providing most of the money for the Womens Rugby World Cup. I'm sure they're providing something, just don't know how much.

So, how much are these ROI sports grants to Northern Ireland worth, and who gets them?

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Sin é on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 9:11 pm

Munchkin wrote:I read somewhere that the NIO is providing most of the money for the Womens Rugby World Cup. I'm sure they're providing something, just don't know how much.

So, how much are these ROI sports grants to Northern Ireland worth, and who gets them?

One of the organisations I was involved with was Mountaineering Ireland which would occasionally run projects that might provide alpine training for promising young people. The ROI Sports Council would just give a lump sum towards it, whereas NI Sports Council would only grant aid per person from NI. ROI would contribute even if it ended up that there were no people from Rep. involved.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by SecretFly on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 9:25 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I read somewhere that the NIO is providing most of the money for the Womens Rugby World Cup. I'm sure they're providing something, just don't know how much.

So, how much are these ROI sports grants to Northern Ireland worth, and who gets them?

One of the organisations I was involved with was Mountaineering Ireland which would occasionally run projects that might provide alpine training for promising young people. The ROI Sports Council would just give a lump sum towards it, whereas NI Sports Council would only grant aid per person from NI. ROI would contribute even if it ended up that there were no people from Rep. involved.

Well to hell with them eggs! We don't got none of the money? No wonder we're shyte at Sport! I'm gonna write a letter to my TD right now.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 9:30 pm

Thanks Sin - that makes a lot of sense about the requirements for the stadium redevelopment grants.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 9:41 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I read somewhere that the NIO is providing most of the money for the Womens Rugby World Cup. I'm sure they're providing something, just don't know how much.

So, how much are these ROI sports grants to Northern Ireland worth, and who gets them?

One of the organisations I was involved with was Mountaineering Ireland which would occasionally run projects that might provide alpine training for promising young people. The ROI Sports Council would just give a lump sum towards it, whereas NI Sports Council would only grant aid per person from NI. ROI would contribute even if it ended up that there were no people from Rep. involved.

Well to hell with them eggs!  We don't got none of the money?  No wonder we're shyte at Sport!  I'm gonna write a letter to my TD right now.

Only in Ireland could we provide grants for alpine training when the highest mountain on the island is no more than a sack of spuds compared to the actual Alps...

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Notch on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 9:47 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Only in Ireland could we provide grants for alpine training when the highest mountain on the island is no more than a sack of spuds compared to the actual Alps...

Ireland's Mountaineering Team is not unlike the Jamaican Bobsleigh team in that sense.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Munchkin on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 10:11 pm

Sin é wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I read somewhere that the NIO is providing most of the money for the Womens Rugby World Cup. I'm sure they're providing something, just don't know how much.

So, how much are these ROI sports grants to Northern Ireland worth, and who gets them?

One of the organisations I was involved with was Mountaineering Ireland which would occasionally run projects that might provide alpine training for promising young people. The ROI Sports Council would just give a lump sum towards it, whereas NI Sports Council would only grant aid per person from NI. ROI would contribute even if it ended up that there were no people from Rep. involved.

So, Mountaineering Ireland (Sister of Mountaineering Netherland) is a cross border organisation? Just like the Womens Rugby World Cup, which the NIO invests in....

You still haven't told me who from Northern Ireland actually receives this ROI sports grant, and how much? Ok, Mountaineering Ireland, but how much do they get, and how involved are those from the Northern Irish side?


Last edited by Munchkin on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 10:16 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by SecretFly on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 10:12 pm

I have a sneaky feeling them Orange Men cheated us out of some of that grant.

"Is that Enda?  - Yeah, this is the marchin' boys down here in the North.  We're enquiring about that Alpine Climbing grant?  - Well the thing is we're thinking about making an assault on Gervaghy....em, the North face.  We're planning on going up it and hopefully coming back down again.... and we were maybe thinking you might like to fund the expedition?"

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Munchkin on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 10:26 pm

OK, Sin é, I have checked out Mountaineering Ireland and although it is a cross border organisation, it is funded from both sides of the border:

Mountaineering Ireland is the representative body for walkers and climbers in Ireland. It is recognised as the National Governing Body for mountaineering, hillwalking, rambling and climbing by both the Irish Sports Council and Sport Northern Ireland.

Mountaineering Ireland is governed by a Board of Directors, elected by the membership. It has a professional staff team based at Irish Sport HQ, National Sports Campus, Blanchardstown in Dublin and at Tollymore Mountain Centre in County Down.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Munchkin on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 10:39 pm

Also, Sin é, a wonderful pastime and, from the little I've read, a great organisation to be involved in thumbsup

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by SecretFly on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 10:44 pm

How do you 'govern' Hillwalking? Jees, everyone wants to be a boss these days.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Don Alfonso on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 11:57 pm

Without alert governance, hillwalking could turn into mountainambling or, heaven forfend, drumlindandering. And that would just be chaos.

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 13 Oct 2016, 3:06 am

As I reflect on it, finances in rugby are a bit akin to mountains really.

Profits peaking, turnover troughs, costs climbing, etc, etc.

It's a funny old world, eh?



Last edited by Pot Hale on Thu 13 Oct 2016, 2:32 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Notch on Thu 13 Oct 2016, 7:51 am

SecretFly wrote:I have a sneaky feeling them Orange Men cheated us out of some of that grant.

"Is that Enda?  - Yeah, this is the marchin' boys down here in the North.  We're enquiring about that Alpine Climbing grant?  - Well the thing is we're thinking about making an assault on Gervaghy....em, the North face.  We're planning on going up it and hopefully coming back down again.... and we were maybe thinking you might like to fund the expedition?"

laughing laughing laughing

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by munkian on Thu 13 Oct 2016, 8:19 am

Don't forget the cost of dem flegs

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

Post by Notch on Thu 13 Oct 2016, 8:34 am

munkian wrote:Don't forget the cost of dem flegs

They actually don't cost that much. I went to a very interesting seminar that suggested the proliferation of flags in Belfast is due entirely to the fact that they are so cheap now. People used to spend loads of money on really good flags, but now they just get cheap polyester flags that were made in China so they can afford to buy way more...

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Re: IRFU Finances - with occasional chatter.

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