Move over Eddie Jones, Mark McCall for England!

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Post by kingelderfield on Sun 16 Oct - 10:50

I'm considering changing the moniker to band wagon jumper starter?

Obviously McCall should now be recognised as the best coach in northern hemisphere rugby (fair play to Dai). The only one realistically capable of of challenging Hansen (huge tangent here, but in all the debate about how good the AB's are it does amaze me that nobody appears to rightly attribute the magnificent contribution of Hansen who has been apart of their panel since I was a small boy and I think is their kingpin or keystone, call or what you like, but he is the master of their ship and therefore its not so surprising that they've continued on this wonderful run playing his 'rugby of the gods' - just a thought) and so without further a do I here by pronounce the said Mark McCall as the next England rugby coach - regardless if he wants it or not!

Jones will take them so far but McCall will deliver the prize.

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Post by lostinwales on Sun 16 Oct - 12:49

kingelderfield wrote:I'm considering changing the moniker to band wagon jumper starter?

Obviously McCall should now be recognised as the best coach in northern hemisphere rugby (fair play to Dai). The only one realistically capable of of challenging  Hansen (huge tangent here, but in all the debate about how good the AB's are it does amaze me that nobody appears to rightly attribute the magnificent contribution of Hansen who has been apart of their panel since I was a small boy and I think is their kingpin or keystone, call or what you like, but he is the master of their ship and therefore its not so surprising that they've continued on this wonderful run playing his 'rugby of the gods' - just a thought) and so without further a do I here by pronounce the said Mark McCall as the next England rugby coach - regardless if he wants it or not!

Jones will take them so far but McCall will deliver the prize.

Yes Jones has been such a questionable success so far. I mean - some of the games have been close its just not good enough picard

McCall might be better- but he might just as well be a better club coach and a worse international one. Of all the things to worry about the succession isn't exactly at the top of the list.

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Post by kingelderfield on Sun 16 Oct - 13:01

Agreed its not top of the list, but if we have learnt anything its that there should actually be a plan which includes a list and on that list is the name McCalll.

Don't get me wrong I am more than happy with Jones and back him 100% (the move over bit is obviously tong in cheek) especially after the 2 previous dung house appointments.

However the future is definitely an ongoing open debate and I for one need to own up to the fact that McCall is the best candidate.

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Post by Poorfour on Sun 16 Oct - 20:31

Given that John Kingston was able to come up with a game plan that enabled a misfiring Quins team to nullify a Saracens team just a few weeks ago, I think McCall has a bit more learning to do.

Plus, I'd add that a Toulon without Giteau (and post Wilkinson) is a very different animal from one with Trinh-Duc pulling the strings.
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Post by kingelderfield on Sun 16 Oct - 22:22

Poorfour wrote:Given that John Kingston was able to come up with a game plan that enabled a misfiring Quins team to nullify a Saracens team just a few weeks ago, I think McCall has a bit more learning to do.

Plus, I'd add that a Toulon without Giteau (and post Wilkinson) is a very different animal from one with Trinh-Duc pulling the strings.

Seriously.....Ok I didn't see the Quins game so I can't give an actual direct response. However that said, I think the jury is very much out as to the credentials of John 'do you know who I am' Kingston, and so to use him as a sort of comparative yard stick is really a bit of a stretch. Come back to me at the end of the season and we'll see how the dice have fallen for the mighty.

Toulon are not what they were - agreed.

So back to McCall. Na the facts are that as things stand Saracens are the most detailed and exacting side in England, the UK, Europe and plainly the northern hemisphere and McCall is the one driving the bus. Yes he took the project on and is being aided by willing lieutenants, but there is no doubt that he is the architect of their success and will be the best coach to take the players forward on an international stage.



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Post by Pot Hale on Mon 17 Oct - 0:58

Hmmm. Not a bad suggestion. McCall as international coach to take over after RWC 2019.

I'm sure Joe would agree - he would make a great successor.

Yep - the 2020 strategy - a good time to have an Irish coach again at the helm to lead Ireland to winning the World Cup on home soil in 2023.

Excellent suggestion, KF. Must drop a note to Phillip Browne straight away.
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Post by kingelderfield on Mon 17 Oct - 7:47

Sorry PH but once again you're stealing my idea's. These idea's are freely nationalized and therefore rightly appropriated solely for the use of United Kingdom of home counties rugby union multi million gin & tea's all round.

HAND'S OFF OUR THINGIES!

I'm off to do some shark jumping.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 17 Oct - 8:19

Certainly putting himself in the frame for international jobs when they next come up. WOuld still prefer an Englishman for the England job and the same rules for players should be applied for coaches.

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Post by Irish Londoner on Mon 17 Oct - 8:58

McCall would be no good as England manager, for a start he wouldn't have the wages budget he does at Saracens ! laughing
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Post by Poorfour on Mon 17 Oct - 9:25

kingelderfield wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Given that John Kingston was able to come up with a game plan that enabled a misfiring Quins team to nullify a Saracens team just a few weeks ago, I think McCall has a bit more learning to do.

Plus, I'd add that a Toulon without Giteau (and post Wilkinson) is a very different animal from one with Trinh-Duc pulling the strings.

Seriously.....Ok I didn't see the Quins game so I can't give an actual direct response. However that said, I think the jury is very much out as to the credentials of John 'do you know who I am' Kingston, and so to use him as a sort of comparative yard stick is really a bit of a stretch. Come back to me at the end of the season and we'll see how the dice have fallen for the mighty.

Toulon are not what they were - agreed.

So back to McCall. Na the facts are that as things stand Saracens are the most detailed and exacting side in England, the UK, Europe and plainly the northern hemisphere and McCall is the one driving the bus. Yes he took the project on and is being aided by willing lieutenants, but there is no doubt that he is the architect of their success and will be the best coach to take the players forward on an international stage.

You miss my point. We can both agree that Kingston is a long way from being established as a top notch DoR, but that's exactly why I mentioned the Quins game. Which I did see, and which Saracens were never really in a position to win, despite long periods of pressure. Kingston was able to out-think McCall. The point here is that McCall doesn't yet have an unassailable set of game plans, even at club level.

Of course, implying that one result in a long club season is cause for serious doubt is stretching things a bit, but that's also part of my point. Demanding McCall for England on the basis of what he's doing with Saracens is stretching things even more. McCall has done a terrific job of building on the setup Venter established, but it's taken him 4 years - during 3 of which it's generally believed that Saracens were spending more on their squad than they ought to have been. (And before beshocked weighs in, I've been told directly by a former Saracen player that they were over the cap, regardless of what settlement the lawyers reached with the PRL and the other clubs).

Anyway, regardless of unfair advantages, it's been a learning process during which Saracens underperformed their potential and resources. McCall did not spring as a fully-formed DoR from the brow of Athena. He's been learning on the job as a club DoR, and would likely need to do the same as an International coach. There is plenty of room for doubt now, and even in several years' time. Plenty of strong club coaches never make it as International coaches... and very few in the professional era have successfully coached a major international side without gaining experience as a deputy coach or coaching a lower profile team.

When it's time for Eddie to go, McCall will probably be one of the candidates to take on the role. As will a number of other candidates. For instance, Borthwick, Rob Baxter and Conor O'Shea could all have claims to the job and, viewed today, each is likely to have some characteristics that would make them a better bet than McCall, and some where McCall has a better case than they do.
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Post by beshocked on Mon 17 Oct - 10:33

Poorfour let's be honest, Mccall's record against Quins has been very good indeed.

Quins fans should be very pleased indeed with the win but as I said after the game - I said well done but the big games are the most important.

To you - Saracens is one of your biggest games of the season, to me - it's not. Get a few more wins and I am sure it will change.

A rivalry which two sides are invested in would be interesting.

The reality is you want to beat us more than we want to beat you. The dislike is pretty one sided. You are entitled to dislike Saracens but doesn't mean I have to feel the same.

It's the same on here. Quins fans like to criticise Saracens, yappysnap in particular has an intense dislike but I just don't have the same anger vs Quins. The frequent pops about the salary cap etc.

I like a lot of Quins players and admire the way you try to play even though it's tactically naive. It's romantic.

I have respect for the Quins posters.

Toulon away was one of those big games - Saracens managed to win.

In a league system losing isn't as big a deal as in a knockout or an one off game. Especially as we have the playoff system too - get in the top 4 and you've got a shot at the title.

As for Mccall, as Pot Hale says he's the natural candidate to take over from Schmidt when he leaves Ireland.

Baxter,Borthwick and O Shea are not better than Mccall.

Mccall has got the better O Shea too many times.


Eddie Jones is doing a fine enough job, Mccall does not need to replace him.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 17 Oct - 10:40

But you can't ignore that saracens have had an unfair advantage over O'Shea and Quins in your example.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 17 Oct - 10:55

No 7 & 1/2 indeed it is unfair. Saracens do not generally play stupid rugby when playing Quins. In contrast Quins have numerous times done idiotic things like aimlessly kick the ball to the Saracens back three unhindered or trying to attack from their own try line. Nick Evans in particular has had many brain farts.

Quins have been their own worst enemies. Blaming the salary cap for one's failings is not the way to go about things.

Sarries have played French clubs with much superior wage bills to Saracens and yet they've managed to turn the tables. They've done this by playing superior tactical rugby.

You only need to look at Sarries vs Toulon to see that it's not just about money. It's about organisation and building a team. Mccall has done this.

The Sarries game has also evolved from the kicking borefest of Venter to a more well rounded gameplan under Mccall.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 17 Oct - 11:00

I'm not specifically talking on Quins Saracens head to head, but to say looking at purely that to judge O'Shea vs McCall while ignoring other influences (including Saracens cheating the cap yes) then you're not able to properly judge. And personally they're both great coaches/managers but you simply can't ignore info which doesn't suit a narrative.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 17 Oct - 11:28

no 7 & 1/2 you do like to distort things to suit your own twisted agenda. You seem to be the champion of delusion.

O Shea is not as good a coach as Mccall, you can falsely believe he is but doesn't make it true.

If we are talking about fairness, do you think it's fair that Quins were the least affected club during the 2011 RWC?

Would have O shea managed to win the AP without that big advantage? I sincerely doubt it.

O Shea is actually a quite overrated coach to be honest.

Now maybe if O Shea can mastermind some good results with Italy he might elevate his status but long way to go.


Back to Mccall, he still needs to prove himself at international level, a good club coach does not make a good international coach necessarily.

Money does not guarantee AP titles if it did Bath would have won the AP by now, not having to play in the Challenge Cup.

Get too fixated on the salary cap makes you miss the flaws in your team.

Very few coaches can say they’ve won the AP and the Pro12 as well as the HC.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 17 Oct - 11:34

Er thanks beshocked. I don't have a horse in the race so to speak. Players going to play for England and others isn't the same as cheating the cap though. Just feel you ignore that point sometimes when judging. McCall is still a good coach, who looks 90% of the time to get the very best out of players and develop them. If he could take that particular skill (with his chosen team) to international level he would be a success. One of the best coaches currently in the NH, up there with Baxter, O'Shea. I'll throw in Diamond in there as someone who is never going to have a great head to head or win stuff with Sale at the moment. Still think Cockerill gets a lot from his players as well, though their transfer in and out seems below par.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 17 Oct - 11:49

You say it's not the same but it's an advantage.

Of course Saracens have had their pros - superior resources is an advantage but doesn't stop other teams winning.

Champion of mediocrity as well as delusion too?

Diamond? Another overrated coach. He almost got Sale relegated when given some money to work with. He's got Sale plodding along now but Sale don't look like winning any decent silverware any time soon.He broke Richie Gray for example. Don't think R.Gray has ever truly recovered.

Baxter is an example of a coach who has taken a team from lowly origins and resources to where they are now. I rate Baxter.

Cockerill is decent too though he's stagnated a bit.

Young has done very well with Wasps since coming in.

Mallinder seems to be floundering a bit though Picamoles was obviously a good bit of business.

You can sign a superstar but doesn't mean they'll necessary perform.

Toulon found that on the weekend with Nonu.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 17 Oct - 11:51

Yes, the same as being knocked out of Europe early, but not an unfair advantage. Why do you have to start with insults again? Can't you just debate acknowledge others don't agree and argue your point?

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Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 17 Oct - 12:01

I think McCall and Baxter are probably the pick of the Aviva head coaches, although Dai Young is moving Wasps forwards. Pretty talented group.

No need to worry about Eddie Jones for now. England are in good hands. That said, if McCall did leave Sarries I do wonder who Sarries would appoint to replace him? A small part of me would like it to be Stuart Lancaster, just for the look on Chris Ashton's face.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 17 Oct - 12:10

You are not going to convince me that Diamond is on par as the likes of Cockerill,Mccall,Young and Baxter etc.

I would say Cockerill is quite underrated, whether you like him or not, Tigers have been very consistent with him in charge. Sure they'll be annoyed they are not doing better but they are at least in the mix every year.

Of course some jobs are easier. Mccall has much more resources at his disposal but he's developed players very well.

The team has evolved and improved, players have come and gone but the core is there. Players have come in and slotted in nicely - Lozowski, Burger and Maitland are only new this season but look like they've been in the squad for a long time.


FES if Saracens appointed Lancaster... mad nope warning tomato

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Post by Poorfour on Mon 17 Oct - 12:44

beshocked, you've misinterpreted me again, whether deliberately or not I don't know.

I am not trying to make a comparison between Quins and Saracens, or to use it to promote their respective DoR. Yes, McCall has a good record against Quins. That's bloody obvious and doesn't need saying, and it would be daft to claim otherwise.

My point is very specifically directed at whether McCall is automatically the right choice as the next England coach, as kingelderfield seems to be claiming. The fact that Saracens lost against a team who should not, on current form, really be a problem for them suggests that McCall has still got a bit to learn. The fact that they beat a Toulon team in Toulon is worth celebrating, but to me it says at least as much about Toulon's weaknesses as Sarries' undoubted ability to exploit them. Toulon without Giteau are significantly less than the sum of their very expensive parts.

In 2019, McCall will probably not have had material international experience. Borthwick will have been Eddie's deputy for two RWC cycles. O'Shea will be measured by what he can achieve with Italy (and, y'know, sometimes achieving moderate goals with limited resources is seen by some people as more impressive than achieving bigger ones with more resources). Baxter has already toured with England during the last Lions tour and has coached the Saxons. While none of that means they are necessarily better coaches than McCall, it does mean that they will have some evidence that their ability translates onto the international stage, which McCall will not at that point have.

beshocked wrote:O Shea is not as good a coach as Mccall, you can falsely believe he is but doesn't make it true.

And what, pray, makes you the sole arbiter of what is and is not true? You repeatedly state things as facts, many of which are opinions, without presenting evidence. You repeatedly dismiss other people's views, again without evidence.

And you bang on about Quins being "least affected" by the 2011 RWC. While it's true that Quins supplied fewer players to the England cause than some teams, it coincided with an injury crisis (including Care, injured in the England training camp) that meant that overall Quins were missing a comparable level of players to Leicester. The argument is spurious anyway: once the RWC was over, everyone expected Quins to start losing and they didn't. True, they did lose twice to Sarries - but Sarries didn't manage to top the table or win their semi final.

Frankly, beshocked, I find it almost impossible to read your posts anymore. They're just long lists of double-spaced sentences contradicting things other people have said in multiple places but rarely offering any argument to back up your claims. You rarely show any signs of having read what other people have said or having tried to understand what they are actually trying to say and engaged with them as opposed to just repeating the same stuff you always say over and over again. Though admittedly on this thread you've added a good dollop of condescension and accusations of "twisted agendas" for good measure.
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Post by BamBam on Mon 17 Oct - 12:47

Good old BS, making friends wherever he goes Rolling Eyes


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 17 Oct - 12:50

Didn't say on par but someone who definitely deserves mentioning in terms of best coaches in the prem.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 17 Oct - 12:56

In general it will be an interesting choice after Jones. England/RFU have been criticised for both picking someone from the old backroom staff and also going outside of that and not having a succession planning in place. See the good and bad of both.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 17 Oct - 13:02

Poorfour

Yet you thought it was important to mention Quins' rare victory over Saracens.

To be honest I would agree with you that England do not need Mccall. Jones and co are doing just fine.

Losing to Quins is not a problem, it's 1 loss in a long season. You are elevating the importance of the game. It is more useful to Quins as a confidence booster rather than as a sign of Saracens weakness. As you are a Quins fan it's understandable to think a match is more important. If Saracens had lost to Wasps and Toulon, Quins might be a sign of a worrying trend but Saracens are winning.

Giteau is merely 1 player. Saracens were at full strength vs Toulon and not Quins but it's irrelevant. Plus the ref in the Quins vs Saracens game was very inexperienced which in this case played into Quins' hands.

Quins the better team on the day won though.

Quins were least affected by the 2011 RWC. Any injuries were not to do with the RWC.

Quins were not missing a comparable level of players to Leicester who at one point had 22 players out. Quins were in a decent position.

Fair play you made the most of your luck but you have to acknowledge your fortune.

Actually you beat Saracens once that season. Quins were fortunate to avoid Sarries in one of the knockout games though.

Quins have stagnated since the AP win anyway. Falling from top 4 and now are a mid table team.

no 7 & 1/2 Diamond is either on their level or not.... you either think Diamond is one of the best or not... which is it?

If you think he's below them - he's not one of the best.


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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 17 Oct - 13:39

BamBam wrote:Good old BS, making friends wherever he goes Rolling Eyes


Good old BamBam, adding feic all to threads.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 17 Oct - 13:55

mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:Good old BS, making friends wherever he goes Rolling Eyes


Good old BamBam, adding feic all to threads.

Well said mikey dragon. OK

To be fair though this is a silly thread. Eddie Jones and co are doing just fine as I said previously. Also Mccall does lack international experience.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 17 Oct - 14:01

Ok, beshocked if that's my choices Diamond deserves mentioning as one of the best coaches in the league so he's their equal in your eyes. I don't judge everyone on one level then everyone else etc etc. If you need to fair enough.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 17 Oct - 14:03

The thread whether you consider McCall a nailed on certainty (doubt many do) does open the question of succession or choosing the a guy deemed the best in 4 years (or whenerver Jones goes) and potentially changing the direction of the team.

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Post by beshocked on Mon 17 Oct - 14:15

You call him one of the best, that means you think he's on their level. Now obviously I think Diamond is a mediocre coach just like his team. Not bad just mid table at best. I've seen nothing to suggest that if Diamond had more resources he would do any better because we've seen him struggle in that scenario.

Would you want Diamond as England coach?

Well no Mccall is obviously not a nailed on certainty because a lot can change till then. You wouldn't think that bringing in yet another ex Saracen would change the direction of the team that much though. Then again we don't know.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 17 Oct - 14:19

I'd love Diamond to be forwards coach. Think he'd be great. Like I said if you want the top 4 or five coaches he deserves a mention; if you think that means he's the equal to all the other coaches in that 4 or 5 that's up to you.

I would think that McCall would want changes to what Jones thinks absolutely. Be that personelle, more forward based approach etc I don't know. Training would likely be different, subtleties in play. Grooming from the inside of the current coaching setup is likely to see more consistency in approach.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 17 Oct - 15:07

Yeah England are pretty set and there's a number of good coaches in England IMO. Might McCall be more interested in a role with Ireland in the near future?

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Post by BamBam on Mon 17 Oct - 15:13

beshocked wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:Good old BS, making friends wherever he goes Rolling Eyes


Good old BamBam, adding feic all to threads.

Well said mikey dragon. OK

To be fair though this is a silly thread. Eddie Jones and co are doing just fine as I said previously. Also Mccall does lack international experience.

Oh the irony Laugh

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Post by kingelderfield on Mon 17 Oct - 22:22

Poorfour wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Given that John Kingston was able to come up with a game plan that enabled a misfiring Quins team to nullify a Saracens team just a few weeks ago, I think McCall has a bit more learning to do.

Plus, I'd add that a Toulon without Giteau (and post Wilkinson) is a very different animal from one with Trinh-Duc pulling the strings.

Seriously.....Ok I didn't see the Quins game so I can't give an actual direct response. However that said, I think the jury is very much out as to the credentials of John 'do you know who I am' Kingston, and so to use him as a sort of comparative yard stick is really a bit of a stretch. Come back to me at the end of the season and we'll see how the dice have fallen for the mighty.

Toulon are not what they were - agreed.

So back to McCall. Na the facts are that as things stand Saracens are the most detailed and exacting side in England, the UK, Europe and plainly the northern hemisphere and McCall is the one driving the bus. Yes he took the project on and is being aided by willing lieutenants, but there is no doubt that he is the architect of their success and will be the best coach to take the players forward on an international stage.

You miss my point. We can both agree that Kingston is a long way from being established as a top notch DoR, but that's exactly why I mentioned the Quins game. Which I did see, and which Saracens were never really in a position to win, despite long periods of pressure. Kingston was able to out-think McCall. The point here is that McCall doesn't yet have an unassailable set of game plans, even at club level.

Of course, implying that one result in a long club season is cause for serious doubt is stretching things a bit, but that's also part of my point. Demanding McCall for England on the basis of what he's doing with Saracens is stretching things even more. McCall has done a terrific job of building on the setup Venter established, but it's taken him 4 years - during 3 of which it's generally believed that Saracens were spending more on their squad than they ought to have been. (And before beshocked weighs in, I've been told directly by a former Saracen player that they were over the cap, regardless of what settlement the lawyers reached with the PRL and the other clubs).

Anyway, regardless of unfair advantages, it's been a learning process during which Saracens underperformed their potential and resources. McCall did not spring as a fully-formed DoR from the brow of Athena. He's been learning on the job as a club DoR, and would likely need to do the same as an International coach. There is plenty of room for doubt now, and even in several years' time. Plenty of strong club coaches never make it as International coaches... and very few in the professional era have successfully coached a major international side without gaining experience as a deputy coach or coaching a lower profile team.

When it's time for Eddie to go, McCall will probably be one of the candidates to take on the role. As will a number of other candidates. For instance, Borthwick, Rob Baxter and Conor O'Shea could all have claims to the job and, viewed today, each is likely to have some characteristics that would make them a better bet than McCall, and some where McCall has a better case than they do.

Very fair comment Poorfour. It's when you begin to interrogate the arguments that you realise what a difficult issue succession planning is and why the RFU haven't accomplished the feat in the professional era. Furthermore I think this has quite a lot to do with the country/club structure we employ - some how we need to negotiate a process for club to country progression that enables club coaches to participate in the international arena whilist continuing in their club positions. End of term B tours don't really cut it, though I really enjoyed the Saxon games this summer past.

Down to brass tacks and why I called out McCall? Well obviously its all opinions but what I really do like about his sides is the level of detail they exercise in their performances and the mentality all the players appear to meld to. That level of focused belief is what makes winners.

Of course there are area's of comparative weakness, the most obvious of which is the overriding dominance of the forwards in the game plan which therefore negates the potential possibilities of an equally proficient back line. You could say he is just playing to his sides strength's though I don't feel that is the case. So I can see there is plenty for him to develop into his game plan offering's.

We'll see what plays out down the track though I really hope that its not just you and I and few other warriors with varying degrees of inadequacy Yahoo who are thinking around this debate, I just can't see Jones going beyond 2019.

I'll also try and watch the Quins Sarries game when I get the chance.

7.5 Its good to see you shouting out for Diamond - I obviously am a big fan of the Sale coaching set up, the 2 league particularly, and am prepared to tell anyone who will listen what a huge impact the loss of players to Wasps has been. Diamond and Sale will be back.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 18 Oct - 8:56

To be fair on the RFU I dont think their "succession planning" has been done with the assumption that they would be on their 6th (or 7th if you include Rob Andrew) in the space of 13 years.
Giving inside men the job simply hasn't worked for them. They absolutely had to go outside the England set up, and the use of a SANZAR coach was massively overdue. Its only pride and tradition that stopped this happening 4 years ago....instead we got a school teacher.

Premiership coaches, well its the first time in a long time we have had an English one who genuinely looks like he might be capable of deserving the job ( assuming that Eddie Jones exploded tomorrow). Dean Richards may have grown into it had it not been for bloodgate, but aside from that ..hmm. It of course doesnt help that DORs are just as much contract managers as they are coaches/team managers now. The international coaches job is very different to a club one which is largely about hiding salary cap breaches trying to stop Bath poaching all your players assembling and balancing a squad for a long season and managing players between competitions.
But yes there is an issue with the club vs country thing. Approaching candidates for part time work with England will all create a stink, and lets not forget the Sean Edwards (who?) fiasco....just imagine how many more failed rugby league converts England might have had between 2007 and now if that rule hadn't been in place.

I cant imagine Jones would be very chuffed though if he found out his employers were already tapping up a replacement for him, despite his side doing OK.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Oct - 9:44

Jones being a former school teacher.

Who's the English coach Gooseberry; Baxter?

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Post by Breadvan on Tue 18 Oct - 9:55

McCall and Baxter have to be the two top names in the RFUs minds to succeed EJ..
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Post by mid_gen on Tue 18 Oct - 10:41

The sort of rugby that works at European club level doesn't work at international level against the best sides. I would really rather have experienced international SANZAR coaches involved that get us playing the kind of rugby that is competitive at World Cups.





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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 18 Oct - 11:07

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jones being a former school teacher.

Who's the English coach Gooseberry; Baxter?

Christ he is isnt he, didn't know that!
At least he doesn't still act like one.

Yeah Baxter would be the actual English coach (certainly not Cockerill who is a liability and frankly hasn't done a great job)
For me hes not only bought success on the pitch with relatively modest resources but as importantly hes shown he has an ability to nurture young potential into international class players.
Mark Mcall is the number one premiership coach of the last few years though, I cant see how that can be disputed. Yes hes had the resources...but the arguably bigger names at Bath have chucked that away with far less success. As well as the big name signings theres a core of players who have come through the system. And yes some of the success can be attributed to Dr Biscuit but I also see it as a positive that hes kept the continuity and not just chucked everything out that was good for the sake of change (*cough* Lancaster *cough*).

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Oct - 11:17

Everyone will know I'm a defender of Lancaster and Jones is very much benefitting for what he put in place. McCall will be considered, would preferably want to go English though.

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Post by beshocked on Tue 18 Oct - 11:42

no 7 & 1/2 I would say that Jones is beneftting more from the good work done by the age groups like U20s (Lancaster did help with that to be fair) and the good form of the club game last season. Of course Lancaster needs some credit but he can't for everything good.

Haskell's key role in the 6 nations is not something that Lancaster can take any credit for whatsoever. Jones usage of the bench again not something he can take credit for.

England have been successful under Jones and co because even though they've not changed that much, they've changed enough to turn England's nearly men into winners. Difference between an average coach and a decent coach. Difference between a Diamond and a Mccall.... Wink

To be fair Jones has better backroom staff than Lancaster but surrounding oneself with good support is just good management.

The head coach is not alone.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Oct - 11:44

Yes, didn't really want to get dragged back into this as we've discussed this and you only judge on results which means it's hard to properly assess anything,


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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 18 Oct - 11:51

Arent Borthwick and Gustard being groomed for when Jones decides to depart?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Oct - 11:54

Pretty much. Worked with Robinson after all!

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Post by beshocked on Tue 18 Oct - 12:04

no 7 & 1/2 I don't think I've ever worked out what you assess things on. It's certainly not results so what is it?

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 18 Oct - 12:05

I would like to think they are both different animals with regards to coaching.

Especially Borthwick, something tells me might be the one.

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Post by beshocked on Tue 18 Oct - 12:13

Geordiefalcon not sure I am convinced, we've seen Borthwick as England captain, I think it's fair to say he was not well received. Could you imagine Borthwick talking to the press?

This backroom job suits Borthwick because he's a grafter, intelligent and has good attention to detail. He's not a PR man though. You need to say the right things to the press even if it's just hyperbole. He's added value though both to Japan and England but in a specific role.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Oct - 12:23

Part of it is beshocked. I've certainly stated the rest but you don't read what other people write, hence why it's hard to have a 2 way discussion.

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Post by beshocked on Tue 18 Oct - 12:32

I do read what other people write. I just find some of it laughable.

Like elevating the Quins vs Saracens game in importance and using as an important reason to criticise Mccall - losing an unimportant game is not a big deal.

Like rating Diamond as much as superior coaches.

You can learn from a loss, a win might well paper over cracks that need fixing.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 18 Oct - 12:39

If you read it why do you constantly try and misrepresent people? I mean you've done it just there in that last post. Rating Diamond as mcuh as superior coaches. It's you that is unable to separate anyone beyond a list of top coaches. I've said it's not something I would do yet you're laying your own judgements on me.

I agree with your last sentence completely but put into practice Wales in WC vs Wales in 6Ns when the pattern of the match was similar including disasterous substitutions in both only the win now matters to you and you're even praising Jones' subs.Last from me on the subject anyway as it'll just get twisted into comments I didn't make.

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