Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 10:25 am

First topic message reminder :

Actually Davie, they didn't fit yours (apologies; 'idiocy' is a bit strong). Your earlier comments were all about how he'd actually done something terrible/illegal i.e. told them how to get around 3rd party ownership (he didn't) with the possible implication that he'd been knowingly involved in it (no evidence of this), took £400k for dodgy seminars (he didn't and he said he'd have to clear it with the FA) etc. You wanted him to be a crook from the off.
You also claimed Ben and I said he was 'innocent' - we said no such thing.

You never took S_R's approach re. his position being untenable because he was England manager, the one thing he probably falls foul of. His comments re. Hodgson/Nevile were unfortunate, but this was a private conversation and, actually, big deal. Seriously, the next poor schmuck who takes this on should treat the media as they deserve.

There may well be more to this - we'll see. Until then, the only thing he's 'guilty' of is putting himself in a stupid position cf. the FA's comments re. FIFA etc and forcing the FA to ask him to fall on his sword. S_R's right with this; the FA had little choice really.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 1:51 pm

They aren't "role models" Beninho, they are just people that others are "fans" of. It doesn't mean they are obligated to behave in a prescribed way. They aren't any different to any other person that appeals to kids.

How is there a  difference to being a "fan" of a comedian, artist, singer etc and a football team? People try to imbue sports "stars" with some sort of special category which makes them different to everyone else. They are no different.

Take for example those One Dimension people, there is no difference between the pant wetting adulation of the teenage girl than the obsessive behaviour a teenage boy has towards their football team. Yet, if you are not a footballer, the media tries to excuse their behaviour What exactly is appealing about being a footballer other than the money? In general, no taste, sleeve tattoos, house like something Liberace might have, typical clichéd wife, mostly poorly educated with awful vocabulary and diction, often seen being planks on nights out and being vulgar with displays of their wealth, not to mention if they are English, embarrassing themselves on the pitch in tournaments.

Those other celebrities are also used to advertise things.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by McLaren on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 3:12 pm

Super

Stop getting caught up in the precise meaning of "role model". What you have to accept that for good or bad reasons young kids do look up to sportspeople as people lifestyles worth aspiring to.


Jas

Not sure your post makes any sense.

Are you agreeing that convicted or not the act was not ethical?
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by MontysMerkin on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 3:18 pm

super_realist wrote:They aren't "role models" Beninho, they are just people that others are "fans" of. It doesn't mean they are obligated to behave in a prescribed way. They aren't any different to any other person that appeals to kids.

How is there a  difference to being a "fan" of a comedian, artist, singer etc and a football team? People try to imbue sports "stars" with some sort of special category which makes them different to everyone else. They are no different.

Take for example those One Dimension people, there is no difference between the pant wetting adulation of the teenage girl than the obsessive behaviour a teenage boy has towards their football team. Yet, if you are not a footballer, the media tries to excuse their behaviour What exactly is appealing about being a footballer other than the money? In general, no taste, sleeve tattoos, house like something Liberace might have, typical clichéd wife, mostly poorly educated with awful vocabulary and diction, often seen being planks on nights out and being vulgar with displays of their wealth, not to mention if they are English, embarrassing themselves on the pitch in tournaments.

Those other celebrities are also used to advertise things.

Envy- a passion that defiles the heart... laughing
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by JAS on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 3:37 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

Stop getting caught up in the precise meaning of "role model".  What you have to accept that for good or bad reasons young kids do look up to sportspeople as people lifestyles worth aspiring to.


Jas

Not sure your post makes any sense.

Are you agreeing that convicted or not the act was not ethical?

It makes perfect sense Mac, I'm making the point that a conviction is possible for an illegal act as opposed to the fantasy scenario you're trying to put across that people should be convicted/condemned for despicable behaviour (to which you've now added ethical - so again in who's judgement would an act be ethical or not?). We can all have an opinion of what constitutes despicable or not ethical but you cannot expect the law to convict on that basis. My opinion for what its worth is that his behaviour was unsavoury to say the least but neither my opinion or yours is going to send Evans down. Imagine if say Mary Whitehouse had been given cart blanche to decide what constituted despicable behaviour in the 70's/80's and despicable behaviour was made a crime...half the bloody country would now be in jail!!

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by beninho on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 3:54 pm

The whole case stinks in so many ways. The girl did not say she was raped by Evans, she said she could not remember what happened and thought she may have been drugged. It was the police and the CPS who went ahead with the r*** case. The girl has been hounded by idiots and scumbags for no real fault of her own. What Evans did was clearly wrong, and to a lot of people a bit strange, he blagged a room key, got involved with his mate on a drunk girl, then left via the fire exit. Its strange behaviour, and clearly morally wrong, but has been proven to be not r***.

The key new witnesses, who claimed when they shagged her, she asked for it harder, were previously interviewed, but then gave this further evidence when interviewed by a private investigator offering £50k in "reward" money. Nothing dodgy about this has been confirmed, but it could "look" dodgy to some people.

Evans girlfriend contacted the night desk worker, telling him about the £50k reward money via facebook messages. Again not dodgy but could "look" like an incitement to change his previous story that the girl was out of it.

Its all a big mess and noone comes out of it looking good.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by JAS on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 4:05 pm

The girlfriend bit is a strange one. Was she his girlfriend at the time of the alleged incident? If so, even though he's now been cleared of r*** the fact is he still engaged in activity not exactly compatible with a stable long term relationship (admittedly that is my personal judgement but I would hazard a guess that outside the swingers community it would be most people's opinion). What the blooming heck is she thinking???

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 4:16 pm

JAS wrote:The girlfriend bit is a strange one. Was she his girlfriend at the time of the alleged incident? If so, even though he's now been cleared of r*** the fact is he still engaged in activity not exactly compatible with a stable long term relationship (admittedly that is my personal judgement but I would hazard a guess that outside the swingers community it would be most people's opinion). What the blooming heck is she thinking???
Who knows JAS, but in this case it's clearly not Evans's money as her family/dad appears to be loaded.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by beninho on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 4:45 pm

2 and half years they had been together before the incident. Some women like the idea of dating a footballer, she may come from money, but the extras that come with being involved in football, may have been something that she liked. Any normal person would tell him to f**k right off when his excuse was that he only shagged her with his mate, and did not r*** her. And a guy that goes threes up with his mate and a drunk girl, has "probably" done something before. I would be really surprised if this was the first occasion.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by McLaren on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 9:07 pm

Most peoples moral code is not limited by the law of the land but extend to how we think other people should be treated.  I would hope that what Evans did to that woman falls well outside what anyone would consider moral.

As you can tell from the start of this post I agree that the law should not intervene to provide justice whenever any act not considered moral is committed. But in this case I think the law should have covered what happened and further I find it a little worrying that the woman's past sexual conduct has been used to decide whether that specific act was r***.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by raycastleunited on Wed 19 Oct 2016, 1:41 pm

McLaren wrote:I guess just because our legal system doesn't cover getting someone plastered and using your fame and influence to have sex with them while they are semi conscious we should be ok with his behavior?

Why bother? Everything about this comment, from the fact that this isn't what happened (and you know it), to the deliberate spelling mistake because you think being a bit American makes you look cool, all of it, just screams out you're a d1ck.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by raycastleunited on Wed 19 Oct 2016, 2:07 pm

McLaren wrote:Most peoples moral code is not limited by the law of the land but extend to how we think other people should be treated.  I would hope that what Evans did to that woman falls well outside what anyone would consider moral.

As you can tell from the start of this post I agree that the law should not intervene to provide justice whenever any act not considered moral is committed. But in this case I think the law should have covered what happened and further I find it a little worrying that the woman's past sexual conduct has been used to decide whether that specific act was r***.

I have a problem with this, and your interpretation of what is moral. You are declaring that acts between consenting adults are immoral: one night stands, group sex. Where do you draw the line? Homosexuality? Sex outside marriage? Holding hands in public?

Many people have fantasies of having sex with strangers, and actually it will be in the top 10 for women in just about every list ever published. The woman in this case decided to act out her fantasy and engage with a stranger in an anonymous hotel room. Sadly she gets branded a s-lut for her actions, but she showed confidence and courage to go ahead (even if she needed some alcohol to free her inhibitions). I would call her a feminist for not being constrained by socially accepted morals and having the freedom to use two unknown men to satisfy her desires.

None of us know what really happened in that hotel room, and I'm speculating as much as you, I just think you are way off the mark in your assumptions of what women want / feel / think.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by raycastleunited on Wed 19 Oct 2016, 2:10 pm

By the way, isn't it disappointing that people have to type r***? It is not a profane word, and I don't understand why it would be censored.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by MontysMerkin on Wed 19 Oct 2016, 3:35 pm

You should use the french pronunciation - rapper.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 19 Oct 2016, 6:21 pm

raycastleunited wrote:By the way, isn't it disappointing that people have to type r***? It is not a profane word, and I don't understand why it would be censored.
I'd be inclined to agree. It's ridiculous.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Wed 19 Oct 2016, 6:44 pm

There's tons of words on here which are ridiculously censored. Some jobsworth no doubt.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Wed 19 Oct 2016, 6:46 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

Stop getting caught up in the precise meaning of "role model".  What you have to accept that for good or bad reasons young kids do look up to sportspeople as people lifestyles worth aspiring to.


Jas

Not sure your post makes any sense.

Are you agreeing that convicted or not the act was not ethical?

Mac, the point is that having a "role model" based on someone kicking a ball about is pathetic.

I'm pretty sure if you looked at the PRIVATE life of virtually everyone there would be something that moral morons like you would object to.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Davie on Wed 19 Oct 2016, 7:55 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:By the way, isn't it disappointing that people have to type r***? It is not a profane word, and I don't understand why it would be censored.
I'd be inclined to agree. It's ridiculous.

You have to remember the software that runs this forum isn't British. The forum comes with a pre-configured list of swear words which can be tailored by the administrators.

I remember back when the forum was started and I was a helper setting it up, there was arguments over what should be swear words. I think the decision was just to leave the default because no one could agree.

It would take about 5 minutes to sort out the swear filter

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by raycastleunited on Wed 19 Oct 2016, 10:51 pm

Thanks for the explanation Davie. But r*** still isn't a swear word in any other country is it?

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Thu 20 Oct 2016, 11:30 am

What about Oil Seed R***?

It's a ridiculous word to censor.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by JAS on Thu 20 Oct 2016, 2:14 pm

super_realist wrote:What about Oil Seed R***?

It's a ridiculous word to censor.

Imagine the difficulties in a crop farmers forum!

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by MontysMerkin on Thu 20 Oct 2016, 3:30 pm

My role model is Jesus.

From the Big Lebowski.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Roller_Coaster on Thu 20 Oct 2016, 4:00 pm

JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:What about Oil Seed R***?

It's a ridiculous word to censor.

Imagine the difficulties in a crop farmers forum!

Is "crop" used to get round the filter?

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by MontysMerkin on Thu 20 Oct 2016, 6:19 pm

Nicely summed up by Wood.
England’s Chris Wood saw Woods during the Ryder Cup when the 40-year-old was one of Davis Love’s vice-captains and hopes this latest setback does not mark the end of Woods’s career.

“He seemed fine at the Ryder Cup, but you never know with Tiger,” Wood said. “It’s really disappointing because I was ready to watch it and it would have been great for the European Tour for him to play in Turkey in his second event back.

“It is really disappointing for myself as a golf fan to not be able to sit down and watch him play, because he was my golfing hero. He won the Masters when I was 10 years old, so from that point on he’s the only guy I’ve ever looked up to really. And he doesn’t deserve for his career to come to a finish in this way. He deserves to go out in all the style that his records still deserve.”
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Thu 20 Oct 2016, 6:43 pm

It's disappointing for me too, as there's nothing better than watching his miserable face sink even further by virtue of his terrible play.

On the plus side, his absence is just as good.

He does deserve his career to finish in this way, because he's had a dilettante attitude to taking care of himself.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Be_the_ball on Thu 20 Oct 2016, 9:08 pm

MontysMerkin wrote:My role model is Jesus.

From the Big Lebowski.

Im working with a Spanish guy named Jesus at the minute, his mother must have had some serious expectations of him. I handed him a bottle of Deep River Rock today and said "Sauvignon blanc please", he wasn't impressed...

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Thu 20 Oct 2016, 9:32 pm

That's worse than being called Kevin.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Be_the_ball on Thu 20 Oct 2016, 11:02 pm

super_realist wrote:That's worse than being called Kevin.

It is actually, although Kevin is pretty bad. It's just weird to name your kid Jesus.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Thu 20 Oct 2016, 11:24 pm

Surprised more Americans aren't called Jesus, they love a stupid name and they love Jesus too.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by McLaren on Thu 20 Oct 2016, 11:38 pm

Super

Do you have a traditional Scottish name?
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by kwinigolfer on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 1:01 am

Mac,
I've never thought to break a confidence but feel bound to tell the (v2) world that your name is Archie.

(Plenty of Hispanic Jesuses in the US.)

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 8:00 am

No Mac, I have an Irish name actually.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by pedro on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 8:44 am

super_realist wrote:No Mac, I have an Irish name actually.
mic drop... drumroll

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 9:04 am

I've admitted this before, and also distant Oirish antecedence.

I'm still gutted about the famine, so no potato jokes please. It's so offensive.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by MontysMerkin on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 9:06 am

Sucking on a lemon again soops? And you say you're single? A catch like you? I'm surprised, but I bet your face is similar to woods after a thinned chip, like an Easter Island statue with an arseful of razor blades.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 9:16 am

My eyes are sufficiently far apart though not to be confused with an Oirish person. Leprechaun

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Be_the_ball on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 9:24 am

The only people that seem to keep banging on about the Famine are the mal adjusted of NI & Scotland, and it always seems to be associated with the bigoted mud slinging that goes on between two Scottish football teams, Which is bizarre. The vast majority of ppl in the South couldn't care less and recognise it as bigotry that bubbles to the surface from time to time in NI & Scotland. It was 170yrs ago ffs, the kind of rhetoric thats associated with the 19th century.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by westisbest on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 10:24 am

Can't beat a good roast potato.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by westisbest on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 10:26 am

super_realist wrote:My eyes are sufficiently far apart though not to be confused with an Oirish person. Leprechaun


Just cos you may be a bit strange looking don't bring others into it Very Happy

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by pedro on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 12:57 pm

Birthday party at s_r's...

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Roller_Coaster on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 1:21 pm


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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Be_the_ball on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 1:40 pm

Clearly all this potatoe talk is a reference to Spud from Trainspotting, now I understand Super is named after Spud from Trainspotting. It all makes sense now.

Top o the 'mornin to ya Spud,


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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by Be_the_ball on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 3:10 pm

So, im working from home today.. And I sh1t you not all I can here is bag pipes! there's a bloke playing the bag pipes down the road. Is that some sort of karma for having a go at some Scottish ppl earlier!?!? I don't know, maybe the Jesus jokes!

Jigs and reels it is so!

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 6:23 pm

The bagpipes is about as easy on the ears as a small child crying it's eyes out. Horrible, wretched instrument.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by JAS on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 8:42 pm

Be_the_ball wrote:The only people that seem to keep banging on about the Famine are the mal adjusted of NI & Scotland, and it always seems to be associated with the bigoted mud slinging that goes on between two Scottish football teams, Which is bizarre. The vast majority of ppl in the South couldn't care less and recognise it as bigotry that bubbles to the surface from time to time in NI & Scotland. It was 170yrs ago ffs, the kind of rhetoric thats associated with the 19th century.

The bigotry has it's roots a bit further back than that btb (326 years ish) and it's not confined to the morons of only two teams, their Edinburgh based cousins indulge in the lunacy from time to time too, the clue is in the name of one of them. Since football has gone a lot more commercial the small mindedness of the bigotry has hurt them hard as they have been commercially shunned and consequently unable to grow which has hurt the whole game north of the border. Fairly and squarely their own fault because of their unwillingness to deal with it properly. There are belated attempts to deal with it now but it's way too little way too late.




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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 8:58 pm

To be fair JAS, Scottish Football isn't on a sub Norwegian Tippeliege level because of the bigotry alone.
It wasn't bigotry which caused the Sky deals and Setanta to go down the toilet. It's by and large just a rubbish product, which with or without bigotry wouldn't be any better.

I'm not one to stand up for religion, but it isn't really to blame for how chronic and commercially terrible Scottish Football is.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by JAS on Fri 21 Oct 2016, 9:56 pm

Actually I beg to differ Supes, there was a time when Scottish football clubs DID compete, Celtic, Rangers and Aberdeen have all won European trophies in the 60's 70's and eighties respectively with Dundee United also contesting the UEFA Cup final in the 80's as well as coming within a whisker of the European cup final in the 80's too. The final flickers of being able to compete came in the noughties with both Rangers and Celtic reaching the UEFA Cup final. By that time however they were very much swimming against the tide. The money in the big leagues was beginning to take it's toll. Both the Old Firm had their problems trying to still compete financially, indeed it drove Rangers over the edge. Their ego said they were still as big and important but commercial reality deemed that to be a horrendously misplaced fantasy.
Nowadays teams being relegated from the English premiership get 10 times as much as the SPL champions. The financial odds are therefore ridiculously stacked against them. How did they manage such a decline?? Because the commercial organisations that are prepared to pump millions into the game do NOT want to be associated with organisations that are associated with and/or cannot control mindless bigotry. The game has now declined to the point where, as I'm sure you agree is utter gash but it decended to utter gash because it was cash starved not the other way round. It is now a self fulfilling prophecy. Even if bigotry now disappeared completely no organisation would want to pump money into it because it is now no longer a product worthy of investment.
Having said all that, even without bigotry, as a sporting nation Scotland isn't really very good at attracting commercial investment. When rugby went professional and went through it's rapid growth Scotland were the biggest losers in trying to adapt to the commercial realities of the professional game. They were competitive in the 80's & 90's but since the dawn of the professional era they have a perpetual fight with Italy for the "spoon"

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by McLaren on Sat 22 Oct 2016, 12:34 am

There was a half decent series if documentaries about Scottish football on the BBC a month or two back.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by kwinigolfer on Sat 22 Oct 2016, 1:07 am

Can understand commercial interests (or lack of) defeating the clubs, but why doesn't Scotland produce quality young players any more? Can't think of one proven top class player coming through in the past 15 years, though one or two goalies might qualify (barely).

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by super_realist on Sat 22 Oct 2016, 8:10 am

It does produce quality players Kwini, but only in the same way England does, not players that reach any sort of international level or top club players.

Oliver Burke, Kieran Tierney, James Forrest, Andrew Robertson and Ryan Gauld are a few that come to mind.

If you look at other British young players, if they weren't British, we would never have heard of them. Sterling for example is unbelievably over-rated, and if he was German, you wouldn't know who he was. Being English comes with a level of over-rated that only the English rate. No one in Europe will have heard of those English players that are supposed to be coming through either.

Jas, yes, Scottish teams did compete at one point, but my point is that it was nothing to do with religious bigotry that led them to lose that competition (after all, they were still religious crackpots when they were competing with English teams), and much to do with being in huge amounts of debt which eventually caught up with them. Celtic nearly went to the wall in the 80's and 90's and Rangers did recently (hilariously). Hearts also crashed and Aberdeen were taking the toaster out of the canteen to save money.
Scottish Football could only compete in the 80's because in terms of television money, there was no SKY yet and everyone was on a level playing field, so Dukla Prague, AEK Athens and Brondby were in competition with everyone else in Europe.

The funniest thing is that Scotland is the least religious region of the UK, so why does religion play a part in football when chances are most of the fans of those two scummy clubs won't even be religious?

The SPL is ranked something like 24th in Europe, so in order to get some sort of interest going again they have to have a combined league with Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Netherlands and Belgium or start playing summer football, because as it stands no one gives a toss about it, and rightly so.

It's not to do with bigotry that companies don't want to sponsor Scottish football, it's not like the Finnish, Norwegian and Swedish leagues (those on a par with Scotland) are awash with money either and it's not like Scottish Football wasn't bigoted when it did have sponsorship, it's just a product that people aren't interesting in watching it, like Women's Golf or Football, and hence the level of investment, which initially was there to try and gauge interest, just fell off a cliff.

If something is rubbish to watch, it doesn't matter how much money you throw at it, it will still be rubbish to watch, and that sums up Scottish football. It's a dog with fleas. Setanta and Sky simply weren't making money out of their investment, so why bother? Very little to do with the scum from Glasgow.

One leftfield observation I have watching Scottish football is the atrocious production quality, because most of the stadiums are so small the camera positions are also rotten leading to terrible coverage onscreen. It's like watching the cameraman trying to follow a ball around, no good.

People just don't want to watch Scottish Football in the same way they don't want to watch football from the Republic of Ireland, NI or Wales.

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

Post by kwinigolfer on Sat 22 Oct 2016, 2:19 pm

super,
Interested to see how Gauld and Burke do, and Robertson looks very good; how good is Tierney?

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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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