Earnings from golf

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Earnings from golf

Post by raycastleunited on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 5:27 pm

A bit like football, the astronomical earnings of the top golfing stars make headline news. But what's life like lower down? Winnings sound pretty good on tour, but when you factor in the costs of caddy, coach, other advisers, hotels and travel, how much do you have to win before you break even? And how much do players earn from sponsorships?

I would be interested to hear from those who a bit closer to the pro's so are in the know. What's a typical pro like, say, Jason Kokrak taking home? And what about in Europe? Can you make a living on the Challenge Tour or Europro tour?

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by super_realist on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 5:41 pm

A friend of mine has been on Europro for the last few years, and my opinion is that for 99% of the players on that tour, it's a complete racket for Barry Hearn to earn money.

Pretty much, you cannot make a living on that tour. The reason is that there are about 14 events per year, top prize 10k with subsequent prizes for lower placing dropping off rapidly.
Great if you win around half of those, but if you only win 1, or none at all, then chances of making money are so slim. 95% of the players on that tour are making less than 3k per year.

For instance, entry is £295, factor in travel and hotel costs, say £500 per event, than you are needing to win £795 just to break even.

So many guys are just pipe dreaming on that tour, and the scores reflect it. There's a handful of guys who might benefit if they can progress to the challenge tour (e.g. Jack Senior), but the majority will be selling Mars Bars in the club shop before you know it.

The only person who wins on the Europro is Barry Hearn

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by pedro on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 8:07 pm

I think it's pretty much the same on the CT. Maybe they'll have decent sponsors - and the top 20% can probably make a living out of it - but I guess the rest need to bring money from home.
The current 10th ranked player on the CT OOM (before the last 2 events) has earned lttle over €100K and #100 only 15K. And these guys also play all over the world and, unless they have sponsors, have  to pay for caddies, travel, accomodation etc.

It's only when you reach the PGAT where even the lower ranked players make a good living.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by JAS on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 8:16 pm

I think the minor tours are basically stepping stones for hardening your game and getting used to being a tour pro. I know the guy that runs the Jamega tour (which is even lower down than the Europro in terms of earnings). You basically have to be top 10 to get any money back and top 3 for it to be self financing so these tours are not really a way to earn a living. Some take that route and make it (Beef being a more recent Jamega tour graduate).

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by super_realist on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 8:22 pm

The point I was making JAS was that the really small tours are a total racket for those organising the tour, hardly any of the players get any success on it.

There are too many golfers who are just club golfers on that tour taking advantage of being able to turn pro off 4, scores can range anywhere from 85-99 on that tour, and I don't care how hard the course is set up, many of us wouldn't be that bad.

It's useful for 2-3 players a year, for the rest it's a complete waste of time.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by pedro on Mon 24 Oct 2016, 9:37 pm

JAS wrote:Some take that route and make it (Beef being a more recent Jamega tour graduate).
Maybe that's why he speaks with s Jamegan accent...

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by Roller_Coaster on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 9:12 am

pedro wrote:
JAS wrote:Some take that route and make it (Beef being a more recent Jamega tour graduate).
Maybe that's why he speaks with s Jamegan accent...

Innit

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by beninho on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 9:14 am

on The PGA Tour last year Boo Weekly at 111 was the first to be under $1m dollers. Tom Hoge ( ?? ) was 155th with $561k thats not bad for pretty much a nobody in golf terms. His website http://www.tomhoge.com/sponsors shows 4 main sponsors apart from his club manufacturer, though not sure how much he gets from these, but surely a decent top up on his earnings. He has played 2 seasons worth of PGA tour golf, and made 4 top tens, and earnt over $1.2m. Earnt $229k on the web.com tour in 76 starts and no wins. did win on a small Canada tour in 2011 and made $34k in 5 events.

I knew little about this guy, but he has clearly had a decent living from golf without being anything special.

Basically there is money but you have to go to the states and earn it against everyone else.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by McLaren on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 9:19 am

What about the club golfers earnings from golf?

What is your best season earnings wise?

I think I managed to get about £60 in vouchers one season.
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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by Roller_Coaster on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 9:20 am

Does anyone have any realistic idea how much players have to fork out to caddys, management companies, coaches etc.

Say
8% - 10% Caddy
10% - 15% Management
10 - 40% Tax? (or 0% tax and 10% accountants to those at the top eh Phil?)

28% - 65% band if I'm anywhere near (although the above figures are complete guesses)

Coaching team? 10 - 15%?

Wife(/ex-wife given the amount of time away from home!) 50% of the rest?

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by Roller_Coaster on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 9:24 am

McLaren wrote:What about the club golfers earnings from golf?

What is your best season earnings wise?

I think I managed to get about £60 in vouchers one season.

I'm on £430 this year so far and leading our season long 6 best from 12 stableford rounds comp (after 11 laps) which could be I think £150 - 200 to win or at least £50 for 3rd (which I am pretty much guaranteed).

I think that's my best year at a club level (not that I have any other levels!!!!)


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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by super_realist on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 9:40 am

Roller_Coaster wrote:Does anyone have any realistic idea how much players have to fork out to caddys, management companies, coaches etc.

Say
8% - 10% Caddy
10% - 15% Management
10 - 40% Tax? (or 0% tax and 10% accountants to those at the top eh Phil?)

28% - 65% band if I'm anywhere near (although the above figures are complete guesses)

Coaching team? 10 - 15%?

Wife(/ex-wife given the amount of time away from home!) 50% of the rest?

I would imagine that the majority of players on Europro and Challenge don't have those sort of expenses other than tax as they won't be able to afford caddies, management and coaches, many might not even have tax to pay either as lots will be within the threshold allowance

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by superflyweight on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 10:46 am

I used to legally represent a company that designed and manufactured a certain product that's worn by a number of sporting personalities (including a few golfers) and I put in place some endorsement contracts with these people.  

Given that all the sports person had to do was be seen wearing the product and that these contracts would have been very small fry in comparison to other endorsements and sponsorship, the amount of money paid out was always surprising.  

One particular high profile European golfer had a guaranteed yearly minimum income of £60,000 for this one endorsement and that figure rose to £250,000 depending on the overall sales achieved by the company.


Last edited by superflyweight on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 11:06 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by super_realist on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 10:54 am

Was it one of those non-scientific emporers new clothes bracelets?

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by Roller_Coaster on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 11:04 am

super_realist wrote:
Roller_Coaster wrote:Does anyone have any realistic idea how much players have to fork out to caddys, management companies, coaches etc.

Say
8% - 10% Caddy
10% - 15% Management
10 - 40% Tax? (or 0% tax and 10% accountants to those at the top eh Phil?)

28% - 65% band if I'm anywhere near (although the above figures are complete guesses)

Coaching team? 10 - 15%?

Wife(/ex-wife given the amount of time away from home!) 50% of the rest?

I would imagine that the majority of players on Europro and Challenge don't have those sort of expenses other than tax as they won't be able to afford caddies, management and coaches, many might not even have tax to pay either as lots will be within the threshold allowance

Appreciate that, but I'd also be interested in anything that perhaps European Tour or PGA Tour players might have to pay. Might add a bit of colour to, say, Hoge's $561k winnings posted above. $561k might sound alright, but taking the lower (28%) of my deductions figures, that becomes $404k before travel/entry fees/coaching which I guess aren't "cheap" for (say) 25 events a year. Granted it's without any endorsement income on top.


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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by superflyweight on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 11:05 am

It was. Used to be a constant source of annoyance for the client that I didn't wear one.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by Roller_Coaster on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 11:09 am

At least the client got the last laugh by having super health as a direct result of the bangle versus your own pitiful daily struggle to survive due to you eschewing the obvious benefits the trinket clearly provides...

Oh, and by banking the cash.




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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by super_realist on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 11:09 am

Ha ha, Have to take my hat off to the marketing people who managed to con so many people that it was actually doing something.


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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by raycastleunited on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 1:14 pm

beninho wrote:on The PGA Tour last year Boo Weekly at 111 was the first to be under $1m dollers. Tom Hoge ( ?? ) was 155th with $561k thats not bad for pretty much a nobody in golf terms. His website http://www.tomhoge.com/sponsors shows 4 main sponsors apart from his club manufacturer, though not sure how much he gets from these, but surely a decent top up on his earnings. He has played 2 seasons worth of PGA tour golf, and made 4 top tens, and earnt over $1.2m. Earnt $229k on the web.com tour in 76 starts and no wins. did win on a small Canada tour in 2011 and made $34k in 5 events.

I knew little about this guy, but he has clearly had a decent living from golf without being anything special.

Basically there is money but you have to go to the states and earn it against everyone else.

Ben, that's just tournament winnings. You're forgetting all the costs incurred to win... Hoge doesn't take home $561k.

Roller is on to something

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by raycastleunited on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 1:15 pm

Roller_Coaster wrote:At least the client got the last laugh by having super health as a direct result of the bangle

Hahahaha

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by raycastleunited on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 1:25 pm

Roller_Coaster wrote:
pedro wrote:
JAS wrote:Some take that route and make it (Beef being a more recent Jamega tour graduate).
Maybe that's why he speaks with s Jamegan accent...

Innit

Pedro - brilliant

Roller - Raaah, Yuh yard obviously be distance from London if you tink Beef says innit

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by raycastleunited on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 1:30 pm

super_realist wrote:The point I was making JAS was that the really small tours are a total racket for those organising the tour, hardly any of the players get any success on it.

There's not going to be any money in it because nobody would pay to watch Jamega live or on TV, so prizes need to be funded by participants, unless main tours / R&A offer funding as a route to "finding the stars of tomorrow". As JAS says, they are stepping stones.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by beninho on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 1:41 pm

raycastleunited wrote:
beninho wrote:on The PGA Tour last year Boo Weekly at 111 was the first to be under $1m dollers. Tom Hoge ( ?? ) was 155th with $561k thats not bad for pretty much a nobody in golf terms. His website http://www.tomhoge.com/sponsors shows 4 main sponsors apart from his club manufacturer, though not sure how much he gets from these, but surely a decent top up on his earnings. He has played 2 seasons worth of PGA tour golf, and made 4 top tens, and earnt over $1.2m. Earnt $229k on the web.com tour in 76 starts and no wins. did win on a small Canada tour in 2011 and made $34k in 5 events.

I knew little about this guy, but he has clearly had a decent living from golf without being anything special.

Basically there is money but you have to go to the states and earn it against everyone else.

Ben, that's just tournament winnings. You're forgetting all the costs incurred to win... Hoge doesn't take home $561k.

Roller is on to something

Yep, I know he has all the associated expenses. I was just looking at his tour earnings, for a thoroughly average professional golfer. As a starting point 561k is not that bad, though he would have to travel to and from all events, guessing he is not on the private jet brigade.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by McLaren on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 1:44 pm

super_realist wrote:Was it one of those non-scientific emporers new clothes bracelets?

Can someone who wears one of these things offer up the reason they wear them?
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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by raycastleunited on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 2:02 pm

Roller_Coaster wrote:Does anyone have any realistic idea how much players have to fork out to caddys, management companies, coaches etc.

Say
8% - 10% Caddy
10% - 15% Management
10 - 40% Tax? (or 0% tax and 10% accountants to those at the top eh Phil?)

28% - 65% band if I'm anywhere near (although the above figures are complete guesses)

Coaching team? 10 - 15%?

Wife(/ex-wife given the amount of time away from home!) 50% of the rest?

This is the point. Tom Hoge has won $561k, but how much has he actually earned, even before tax?

Caddy and manager are probably paid on a % basis, but I'm sure swing coaches like Harmon would be on a retainer, plus a bonus for improvement in results. Then you've got putting coach, short game coach, mind coach.

You probaly need a PA to organise travel and other commitments, although I suppose the manager covers this.

Then accommodation: $200 a night in the US, €200 a night in Europe. It's over a grand a week. Plus caddy too?

Flights are probably all booked at short notice as itinerary is driven by performances, short haul you could probably get away with economy but longer haul you need to be in business if you want to be able to swing a club when you arrive. So £500 - £5,000 per tournament. I assume the player pays for caddy too.

Then I suppose you have entry fees and membership fees although these probably are inconsequential unless it's Q school and we're talking about people who haven't won any money all year.

Then I wonder how many players get paid to use equipment. e.g. If I ran Taylormade I would give Tom Hoge drivers for fre but I doubt I'd pay him. On the other hand I'd pay Dustin Johnson a lot of money to use my drivers.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by super_realist on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 2:07 pm

I would imagine if Hoge earns $560k in one year, I would estimate after all his taxes and golf related costs he might come back home with something like £80-100k net. However, he might save money by being his own manager and get that to over $100k

That's not too bad for swinging a club and walking about a bit.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by pedro on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 2:41 pm

McLaren wrote:
I think I managed to get about £60 in vouchers one season.
So is that your best paid job ever?

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by pedro on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 2:43 pm

super_realist wrote:
That's not too bad for swinging a club and walking about a bit.
Only comparable job is being a seal farmer.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by pedro on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 2:52 pm

Unless you reach the higher echelons of the game, players take care of logistics, flight and hotel booking themselves. I even think the some second drawer ET players do all this themselves, at least not up until so long ago. The money just aren't that big that you can pay a manager or PA. It's also not uncommon for players family member to do this. As far as I know Manassero and Olesen are still managed by their fathers, even if you should think they could afford some pie munching chubby, like Chubby, to do it.


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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by Roller_Coaster on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 2:59 pm

pedro wrote:
super_realist wrote:
That's not too bad for swinging a club and walking about a bit.
Only comparable job is being a seal farmer.

laughing

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by super_realist on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 3:01 pm

For many golfers they have plenty of time to do this sort of thing themselves.

It's not hard to book flights in advance or hotels. There's no reason to pay someone to do a really easy task.

They don't play every single week, they don't always make the weekend and they don't spend all day practicing.

You could easily do this is a 2 hour admin window every week, especially as they are going to have frequent flier deals with carriers, they could do it on an app quite simply.


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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by George1507 on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 3:20 pm

Members at my club are sponsoring a young guy on his first season on the European Tour. He qualified for the Main Tour from being one of the top guys on the Challenge Tour last year.

He said he made about €15K last year after deduction of various expenses.

This year he has won about €400K, he is in the 70s in the Race to Dubai, and he reckons he'll make about €150K. He's around the likes of Aiken, Manassero, Rock, Warren, Wall and Dubuisson, so in good company.

All his arrangements - everything - are handled by his management company. All he needs to do is to turn up and play. They've sourced sponsor cars for him and clothing deals and anything else he needs. It's comparatively easy on the Main Tour against the Challenge Tour in that respect.

His main complaint is that the European Tour shuts down for long periods of time during the summer - ironically - and he can't get an invitation for the WGC events that are going on, so he - like a lot of others - is just kicking his heels when he feels he should be competing.

Next season is going to be very important for him. If he can get some good results early on in South Africa, he has a chance of invitations here and there. If he doesn't, then he'll be in the same boat again. He - and others - would agree to play for lower prizes if there were events in Europe - ideally in the UK - when the WGC stuff is going on. It seems nobody is prepared to sponsor any event against those tournaments though, so he's going to be frustrated.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by super_realist on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 3:31 pm

George, I presume they no longer need to sponsor him?

Good for him though, can't be easy to step up from the Challenge Tour to ET.

Making 150k Euro's is pretty good though, so not exactly slumming it or struggling to pay the mortgage.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by pedro on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 3:37 pm

The thing is that the opposite events usually carry a modest prize fund. Traveling to Saf, Australia, Fiji or Mauritius, is not so cheap, and if you have to make it worthwhile financially, after all expenses, you'd have to finish in the top 20-25. Mind you, even the Madeira tourney was hardly worthwhile, despite being in/near Europe, with a prize fund of only 600K.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by super_realist on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 4:00 pm

Think about how hard the Europro is then, Prize fund is about 40k, and challenge is only about 200k I think

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by superflyweight on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 4:28 pm

McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:Was it one of those non-scientific emporers new clothes bracelets?

Can someone who wears one of these things offer up the reason they wear them?

I know someone who would say that he wears it because it earns him minimum £60,000 per year.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 25 Oct 2016, 4:39 pm

George,
If you're talking about who I think you're talking about(!), he might look back on his enforced summer rest as a blessing in disguise, especially if he plays well in Turkey and can advance to Dubai.
Given his progress this year it's reasonable to assume he'll do well in South Africa and the sky'll be the limit. But he'll also be busy!
But the point about dearth of summer events is a hole that Pelley needs to fill quickly. A revived Wales Open would be a good start.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by George1507 on Wed 26 Oct 2016, 9:25 am

super_realist wrote:George, I presume they no longer need to sponsor him?


No, the Members aren't paying him any more. They raised about £100K for him in one go. There's a repayment schedule over ten or so years - or less if he does really well. It gave him the security of being able to play in any event that he had an exemption for. As it happened, he did well enough not to have needed that much, but maybe the reason he did well was because he didn't feel under pressure.

Kwini, he's off to Turkey next week to try to win himself at least €70k.


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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by super_realist on Wed 26 Oct 2016, 9:38 am

Wow, 100k is excellent going, very generous and obviously great confidence in the guy.
Shinkwin?

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by McLaren on Wed 26 Oct 2016, 9:42 am

Super

If you want to have a shot at getting to the Euro Tour I will get things going by kicking in a fiver.
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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by super_realist on Wed 26 Oct 2016, 9:46 am

I'm not even good enough for that tour Mac, although better than some on it by the looks of some of the scores.
I thought about having a go at qualifying for Europro just to see how I got on, to see how tough it is and for a laugh but I baulked at the entry fee for Q-School.

I'm very much a club golfer, and not under any illusions I could do any better than that.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by McLaren on Wed 26 Oct 2016, 10:00 am

With your job being a little vulnerable at this time due to low oil prices do you think a solid winter practice schedule could get you up to standard should the worst happen? It is always good to have a back up.
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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by super_realist on Wed 26 Oct 2016, 10:06 am

If only I had the talent Mac, I would love to, but I'm miles off being of the standard, even for the Europro, Jamega or Alps Tour where the level is pretty low.

I really think you need to be around a +5 standard to have the game to shoot the 65's necessary to make any money. We have a lot of St.Andrews members every year having a go at Open Qualifying and to a man they just embarrass themselves and waste a lot of money to show they aren't good enough, and those are guys a lot better than me. I'm realistic, shame so many players love themselves so much they think they can play several leagues above their ability.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by McLaren on Wed 26 Oct 2016, 10:39 am

But how much better could you be if you could commit to 5 hours a day of practice?
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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by MontysMerkin on Wed 26 Oct 2016, 11:06 am

Probably go up a few shots.
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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by I'm never wrong on Wed 26 Oct 2016, 11:19 am

super_realist wrote:I really think you need to be around a +5 standard to have the game to shoot the 65's necessary to make any money.

I have often heard Sky Sports Golf commentator Bruce Critchley say, that before you consider becoming a professional, you shoud be shooting 5 under, regularly on good courses.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by raycastleunited on Wed 26 Oct 2016, 12:31 pm

pedro wrote:
super_realist wrote:
That's not too bad for swinging a club and walking about a bit.
Only comparable job is being a seal farmer.

Pedro is on fire!

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by raycastleunited on Wed 26 Oct 2016, 12:40 pm

George1507 wrote:
super_realist wrote:George, I presume they no longer need to sponsor him?


No, the Members aren't paying him any more. They raised about £100K for him in one go. There's a repayment schedule over ten or so years - or less if he does really well. It gave him the security of being able to play in any event that he had an exemption for. As it happened, he did well enough not to have needed that much, but maybe the reason he did well was because he didn't feel under pressure.

Kwini, he's off to Turkey next week to try to win himself at least €70k.


That's a great effort from the Moor Park members. He was a member at Bushey before, doubt they would have raised more than a tenner.

Good deal for the player too, with a 10 year repayment schedule many of the lenders will be gone before he gets the chance to pay them back.

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by raycastleunited on Wed 26 Oct 2016, 12:53 pm

George1507 wrote:
super_realist wrote:George, I presume they no longer need to sponsor him?


No, the Members aren't paying him any more. They raised about £100K for him in one go. There's a repayment schedule over ten or so years - or less if he does really well. It gave him the security of being able to play in any event that he had an exemption for. As it happened, he did well enough not to have needed that much, but maybe the reason he did well was because he didn't feel under pressure.

Kwini, he's off to Turkey next week to try to win himself at least €70k.


I guess top 20 or better will get him through to the next stage

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Re: Earnings from golf

Post by super_realist on Wed 26 Oct 2016, 1:07 pm

McLaren wrote:But how much better could you be if you could commit to 5 hours a day of practice?

I'm sure I'd be a lot better than I am now Mac, but then, if all of us had 8 hours a day to practice golf, we'd all be better at it wouldn't we. Would I be good enough to play on a very minor tour? Probably not, I'm not a big enough hitter to keep up with these guys.

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Re: Earnings from golf

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